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Pactum Serva

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David Amicus

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May 24, 2018, 9:00:45 PM5/24/18
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I've been reading online about King Edward I of England. I found out that his motto was PACTUM SERVA.

I read two different translations for it "Keep the Faith" and "Keep the Vow". Which is the correct one or is there a better translation?

I read the quote comes from Horace.

B. T. Raven

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May 25, 2018, 7:38:56 AM5/25/18
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On 5/24/2018 20:00, David Amicus wrote:
>
>
> I've been reading online about King Edward I of England. I found out that his motto was PACTUM SERVA.
>
> I read two different translations for it "Keep the Faith" and "Keep the Vow". Which is the correct one or is there a better translation?

preserve the agreement, contract. In the language of Ed One: keep troth.
A bad literary critic "translates" it as "slave agreement."
>
> I read the quote comes from Horace.

Can you cite chapter and verse for this attribution?

B. T.

p.s.
3. pactum, i, n., an agreement, covenant, contract, stipulation,
compact, pact (cf.: conventio, pactio, obligatio): pactum est, quod
inter aliquos convenit, Cic. Inv. 2, 22, 68; cf. Auct. Her. 2, 13, 20:
pacta et promissa semperne servanda sint, Cic. Off. 3, 24, 92: mansit in
condicione atque pacto, id. Verr. 1, 6, 16: pacti et conventi formula,
id. Caecin. 18, 51; cf.: ex pacto et convento, id. Att. 6, 3, 1: pacta
conventaque, Sen. Ben. 3, 15, 1: stare pacto, Liv. 9, 11: pactum
violans, Vulg. Mal. 2, 10 et saep.—Hence (eccl. Lat.), the covenant of
God : dereliquerunt pactum Domini, Vulg. Deut. 29, 25; id. 3 Reg. 11,
11; id. 2 Par. 6, 14.— Poet. : sacrum,a marriagecontract Val. Fl. 8,
401; cf. Juv. 6, 25.—

Ed Cryer

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May 25, 2018, 10:37:46 AM5/25/18
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"Pactum" is the supine of the verb "pacisco"; make an agreement or contract.
Keep the agreement. "Faith" doesn't come into it. That would be "Serva
fidem".

I can't find this anywhere in the works of Horace. But the expression
is so mundane and urbane that I should think it would appear almost
anywhere in ancient Latin texts.
Such as this from Cicero; pacta et promissa semperne servanda sint
(should agreements and promises always be kept?).

The Internet has always abounded with false quotes from Greek and Latin
writers. Cicero, Plato, Aristotle, anyone whose name still carries
kudos. And then they get harvested and sown in lots of famous quotes'
websites; and even picked up by kids to have tattooed on their body.
This one is no exception; a misquote, mistranslated, put into a
different context, and given a life of its own in cyberspace.

Ed

P.S. I wonder what it meant to Edward Longshanks, the Hammer of The
Scots. Did some Welshman break a covenant, and so King Ed built a ring
of great castles all over the land?


David Amicus

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May 25, 2018, 12:39:40 PM5/25/18
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Many sites attribute it to Horace but with no reference.

What would be the best translation of the phrase then?

I've not been able to find the context as to why King Edward chose it.

David Amicus

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May 25, 2018, 1:30:46 PM5/25/18
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Here is one of the sites I found

https://eudict.com/?lang=lateng&word=Pactum%20serva

Ed Cryer

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May 25, 2018, 2:18:04 PM5/25/18
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You have to have travelled around these Welsh castles to appreciate just
how big, splendid and overpowering they are. They're vast, even now; not
little Norman keeps.
When I was a kid we went on holiday in N Wales; and I flinched at the
very sight of Conway Castle.
The locals at the time they were built must have known the English were
in charge.
Eduardus Rex, Malleus Scotorum (carved on the side of his coffin in
Westminster Abbey).
I'd add "Malleus Cambricorum".

Ed

Will Parsons

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May 25, 2018, 2:19:08 PM5/25/18
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On Friday, 25 May 2018 10:36 AM -0400, Ed Cryer wrote:
> David Amicus wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've been reading online about King Edward I of England. I found out that his motto was PACTUM SERVA.
>>
>> I read two different translations for it "Keep the Faith" and "Keep the Vow". Which is the correct one or is there a better translation?
>>
>> I read the quote comes from Horace.
>>
>
> "Pactum" is the supine of the verb "pacisco"; make an agreement or contract.
> Keep the agreement. "Faith" doesn't come into it. That would be "Serva
> fidem".
>...

> P.S. I wonder what it meant to Edward Longshanks, the Hammer of The
> Scots. Did some Welshman break a covenant, and so King Ed built a ring
> of great castles all over the land?

I can't be certain of his motives, but it probably reflects Long Ed's
anger at the treachery of the Prince of Wales, Davydd ap Gruffudd, who
had personally sworn loyalty to Edward. On Dafydd's defeat, Edward
made him the first prominent person to undergo the horrible punishment
of being hanged, drawn, and quartered.

Pactum serva.

--
Will

John W Kennedy

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May 25, 2018, 3:59:43 PM5/25/18
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He deserved it from both sides. There’s a reason that his elder brother
and not he is remembered as the “last” native Prince of Wales.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

David Amicus

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May 25, 2018, 7:13:23 PM5/25/18
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When people hear word "faith" they usually think religion but there is a broader definition. I'm thinking that PACTUM in this usage is that.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Ed Cryer

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May 26, 2018, 7:42:20 AM5/26/18
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David Amicus wrote:
> When people hear word "faith" they usually think religion but there is a broader definition. I'm thinking that PACTUM in this usage is that.
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
>

The word has gone down a similar path to that of "charity". It's been
"secularised".

Ed

David Amicus

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May 26, 2018, 11:57:47 AM5/26/18
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Right.

Ed Cryer

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May 26, 2018, 3:44:58 PM5/26/18
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The island Republic of Ireland have gone down the same path; led, of
course, by young people.

Ed

David Amicus

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May 26, 2018, 5:32:12 PM5/26/18
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On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 12:44:58 PM UTC-7, Ed Cryer wrote:
> David Amicus wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 4:42:20 AM UTC-7, Ed Cryer wrote:
> >> David Amicus wrote:
> >>> When people hear word "faith" they usually think religion but there is a broader definition. I'm thinking that PACTUM in this usage is that.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
> >>>
> >>
> >> The word has gone down a similar path to that of "charity". It's been
> >> "secularised".
> >>
> >> Ed
> >
> > Right.
> >
>
> The island Republic of Ireland have gone down the same path; led, of
> course, by young people.
>
> Ed

Sad

John W Kennedy

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May 26, 2018, 8:36:42 PM5/26/18
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I really don’t know what you mean by this. Neither πίστις nor “fides”
nor “faith” was coined by St. Paul.

Ed Cryer

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May 29, 2018, 5:37:13 AM5/29/18
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Edward and his castles;
https://goo.gl/p91awA

Ed

David Amicus

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May 29, 2018, 9:02:19 AM5/29/18
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Thank-you!
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