Bradley's Arnold exercise 7b

[B. T. Raven]

1. I had rather keep my promises than be the richest man in the world.
2. I begin to be troublesome to you. ;-)
3. Cease then to be cowards and begin to become patriots.
4. He resolved to return at once to Rome and become a good member of the
state.
5. It seems that he was unwilling to become king, and preferred to be a
private person.
6. It is said that by the verdict of the jury you had been freed from
all blame.
7. Having¹ resolved to be a candidate for office, I ventured to return
home and ask for your votes.
8. We would rather die free than live (as) slaves.
9. There is a tradition that he refused to accept the crown (when)
offered by the nation and (its) chief men.
10. It was clear² that the destined day was now at hand; but the
townsmen were unwilling either to despair or to surrender.
11. He said that he had neither broken his word nor deceived the nation.
12. The senate³ and people resolved that ambassadors should be sent to
Pyrrhus.

or in other words (yodaspeak)


1. Iprefer topromisses tostand(firm) (or faith tofulfill) than theone
ofall ofthepeople tobe the richest.
2. Bothersome toyou tobe Iamstarting.
3. Stopyouall therefore fearful (or cowardly) tobe and good citizens
tobecome startyouall.
4. ToRome immediately toreturn and agood citizen tobecome hedecided.
5. Heseems aking tobecome nottohavewanted and aprivateperson tobe
tohavepreferred.
6. (From) fromall fromblame you ofthejudges bythesentences freed tobe
theysay.
7. When themagistracy toseek Ihaddecided, tohome togoback and thevotes
ofyouall torequest dared Iam (Ihave).
8. Freeones todie weprefer than (as) slaves tolive.
9. Theyhanddown him theproffered by thestate and theleadingmen
thekingship toaccept tohavenotwanted.
10. Theday thefatalone now tobethere itwasapparent; thetownmen however
either todespair or themselves togiveup werenotwilling.
11. Himself either faith tohavedodged or thecitizens tohavedeceived
hedenied.
12. Decided thesenate andthepeople that legates to Pyrrhus theyshouldbesent.

[B. T. Raven]

9. Theyhanddown (they say) him theproffered by thestate and
theleadingmen thekingship toaccept nottohavewanted.

[B. T. Raven]

On 1/17/2018 11:17, B. T. Raven wrote:
> On 1/4/2018 22:03, B. T. Raven wrote:
>> 1. I had rather keep my promises than be the richest man in the world.
>> 2. I begin to be troublesome to you. ;-)
>> 3. Cease then to be cowards and begin to become patriots.
>> 4. He resolved to return at once to Rome and become a good member of
>> the state.
>> 5. It seems that he was unwilling to become king, and preferred to be
>> a private person.
>> 6. It is said that by the verdict of the jury you had been freed from
>> all blame.
>> 7. Having¹ resolved to be a candidate for office, I ventured to return
>> home and ask for your votes.
>> 8. We would rather die free than live (as) slaves.
>> 9. There is a tradition that he refused to accept the crown (when)
>> offered by the nation and (its) chief men.
>> 10. It was clear² that the destined day was now at hand; but the
>> townsmen were unwilling either to despair or to surrender.
>> 11. He said that he had neither broken his word nor deceived the nation.
>> 12. The senate³ and people resolved that ambassadors should be sent to
>> Pyrrhus.

1. As compared with English, Latin is deficient in participles; and in
writing Latin prose it is essential to keep clearly in mind the
following facts:
(a) The Latin past (i.e. perfect) participle is passive and not active
(except when derived from a deponent verb: see Intr. 31) amātus
means “having been loved,” not “having loved.”
(b) The present and future participles are always active.
The lack of a past (i.e. perfect) participle active is especially
troublesome when turning English into Latin; but there are two common
ways in which the difficulty can be surmounted.

Either (i) a subordinate clause may be used; for “having heard this, he
returned” we may write: cum hoc audīvisset, rediit.
Or (ii) advantage may be taken of the past (i.e. perfect) participle
passive ītself, by using a construction known as the Ablative
Absolute. In this construction a noun (or pronoun) and a past
(i.e. perfect) participle passive are put in the ablative case to
show in what circumstances the action of a finite verb takes
place. Thus, for “having heard this, he returned,” we may write:
hōc audītō (literally “this having been heard”), rediit.

2 Imperfect tense.

3 A singular collective noun (see Intr. 7, b), especially if it denotes
a united body which acts as one man, is followed by a singular verb.
Vult populus Rōmānus. It is the wish of the Roman people.
Exercitus ē castrīs profectus est. The army started from the camp.
Senātus dēcrēvit. The senate decreed.

>>
>> or in other words (yodaspeak)
>>
>>
> 1. Iprefer topromisses tostand(firm) (or faith tofulfill) than theone
> ofall ofthepeople tobe the richest.
> 2. Bothersome toyou tobe Iamstarting.
> 3. Stopyouall therefore fearful (or cowardly) tobe and good citizens
> tobecome startyouall.
> 4. ToRome immediately toreturn and agood citizen tobecome hedecided.
> 5. Heseems aking tobecome nottohavewanted and aprivateperson tobe
> tohavepreferred.
> 6. (From) fromall fromblame you ofthejudges bythesentences freed tobe
> theysay.
> 7. When themagistracy toseek Ihaddecided, tohome togoback and thevotes
> ofyouall torequest dared Iam (Ihave).
> 8. Freeones todie weprefer than (as) slaves tolive.
> 9. Theyhanddown (they say) him theproffered by thestate and
> theleadingmen thekingship toaccept nottohavewanted.
> 10. Theday thefatalone now tobethere itwasapparent; thetownmen however
> either todespair or themselves togiveup werenotwilling.
> 11. Himself either faith tohavedodged or thecitizens tohavedeceived
> hedenied.
> 12. Decided thesenate andthepeople that legates to Pyrrhus
> theyshouldbesent.
>
>

No answer is a kind of answer. Here is another out of various possibilities:

1. Malo promissis stare quam unus omnium hominum esse locupletissimus
2. Odiosus tibi esse incipio.
3. Desinite vos ergo cussilires esse et cives boni fieri incipite.
4. Romam actutum reverti et bonus civis fieri statuit.
5. Videtur rex fieri noluisse et civis usitatus esse maluisse.
6. Ab omni culpa te arbitrio iudicum liberatum esse dicunt.
7. Cum magistratum petere decrevissem, domum reverti et suffragia vestra
postulare ausus sum.
8. Liberi mori malumus quam servi vivere.
9. Refertur eum oblatum a civitate et principibus regnum suscipere noluisse.
10. Diem fatalem nunc adesse manifestum erat; oppidani vero neque
desperare neque se dedere volebant.
11. Se vel fidem fefellisse vel cives decepisse negavit.
12. Decrevit senatus et populus ut legati ad Pyrrhum mitterentur.

Eduardus

[Ed Cryer]

I always think that the ablative absolute is the defining feature of
classical Latin. They used it all the time; especially the historian
prose-writers. More frequently than the Greek historians used genitive
absolutes.
Golden Latin, silver Latin; both. But not late Latin; not the Vulgate.

Julius Caesar has layered sentences; something like this;
Caesar, his rebus cognitis, cum ........ fecisset, veritus ne .........,
exercitum suum .... duxit.
Subject, abl. abs. , cum clause, participle clause, indicative clause.

Here's one chosen at random;
Hac re statim Caesar per speculatores cognita insidias veritus, quod qua
de causa discederent nondum perspexerat, exercitum equitatumque castris
continuit.

Beautiful. And the beauty stands out more when you consider how a NT
Latinist might have worded it;
Caesar has res cognovit, tum hoc fecit. Deinde quod verebatur .. hoc fecit.

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

Not that the (elegant) placing of Caesar within the Abl. Abs. doesn't do
more than stress that Caesar was one of those to whom "this matter
became known..." i.e that the departure looked a lot like headlong
flight. The Abl. Abs. remains syntactically outside of the main clause:
"Caesar insidias veritus..." the context of 11 is:

[11] Ea re constituta, secunda vigilia magno cum strepitu ac tumultu
castris egressi nullo certo ordine neque imperio, cum sibi quisque
primum itineris locum peteret et domum pervenire properaret, fecerunt ut
consimilis fugae profectio videretur. Hac re statim Caesar per

speculatores cognita insidias veritus, quod qua de causa discederent

nondum perspexerat, exercitum equitatumque castris continuit. Prima
luce, confirmata re ab exploratoribus, omnem equitatum, qui novissimum
agmen moraretur, praemisit. His Q. Pedium et L. Aurunculeium Cottam
legatos praefecit; T. Labienum legatum cum legionibus tribus subsequi
iussit. Hi novissimos adorti et multa milia passuum prosecuti magnam
multitudinem eorum fugientium conciderunt, cum ab extremo agmine, ad
quos ventum erat, consisterent fortiterque impetum nostrorum militum
sustinerent, priores, quod abesse a periculo viderentur neque ulla
necessitate neque imperio continerentur, exaudito clamore perturbatis
ordinibus omnes in fuga sibi praesidium ponerent. Ita sine ullo periculo
tantam eorum multitudinem nostri interfecerunt quantum fuit diei
spatium; sub occasum solis sequi destiterunt seque in castra, ut erat
imperatum, receperunt.

Even the "Ea re constituta" refers obliquely and very subtly to the end
of paragraph 10.

Anyway, why don't you traslate some of the exercises? There are about 60
left, followed by 125 examples of longer continuous English prose passages.

In any case I will continue posting the English, the yodaspeak hint
language version, and eventuall my idea of a somewhat acceptable Latin
version, insh Allah, that is, Deo volente.


Eduardus

[Ed Cryer]

Your yoda-speak seems pointless to me. To whom is it addressed? It seems
to treat Latin as having a fixed word-order, rather like German .But
that's not true of Latin. Its inflectional nature made it highly
independent of word-order. The difference between silver Latin and
golden Latin reveals that; not to mention the way the great Augustan
poets and followers laid out the order.

Don't use English as a proforma for language itself. Some do; they write
about other languages as deviants from the norm. No; don't do that.
Rather, look upon English as another variant in the stream.

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

It's very useful to me. I don't think of it as a real language. It
represents the key (versions made by Oxford dons of the last century).
In other words its tokens (space separated strings) correspond exactly
to the dons' version in word order and somewhat in meaning. I didn't
chose the order; the very good Latinists who made the key to BA framed
their Latin sentences in that order. If it's not useful to you, then
ignore it. Just make your versions directly from the English. I am
pretty sure it will be useful to most other native English speakers who
are studying Latin composition.

>
> Don't use English as a proforma for language itself. Some do; they write
> about other languages as deviants from the norm. No; don't do that.
> Rather, look upon English as another variant in the stream.

I don't do that but I also don't pretend that I am able to think in
other languages. That would require perfect bi-lingualism. See the works
_After Babel_ and Hofstadter's _Le Ton beau de Marot_.


>
> Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Bilingual; yes, that is very difficult to achieve outside of the living
context. I do believe, though, that many kids acquire it because their
families speak them, and they get it quite unwittingly.

I got pretty close with French when I was younger. I'd go across to
France and slip from our English culture to the French one with ease. I
was in Paris a couple of years ago, and I've still got a lot of it;
rusty and far from fluent, but I feel at home with it. In my head it
feels like I have a kind of alternative homeland.

Latin, never. My attitude to Latin is rather like Raphael's was to
painting on canvasses. It's reserved for higher things; moral harangues,
philosophical discourse, sifting the words to get the best effect.
Come to think of it, it's rather like Lego for me; and certainly not for
mere colloquy or buying stuff in shops.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

B. T. Raven wrote:

> Anyway, why don't you traslate some of the exercises? There are about 60
> left, followed by 125 examples of longer continuous English prose passages.
>

>

> Eduardus
>

I always read your Latin, and if I find any problems I mention them.
I find very few, though; typos mostly. And your Latin style has become
classical over the last few years, so that I don't think I can improve
much on it.

I'll have a go at one of the larger passages you mention if you post one.

Ed

[Patricio]

I for one appreciate your posting these, B.T., and though I often don't have the leisure to do them I find them extremely instructive when I do.

--Patricio

[B. T. Raven]

The only problem with yodaspeak is that it's really not possible to
arrive at the exact meaning by stringing together tokens made from
jamming together 2, 3, or even 4 English words, and making them stand
for the Latin, word for word and in the Latin order. But by referring to
the real English original, it is much easier to come up with acceptable
Latin.

Here's something like the continuous translations (coming maybe in
2019), this from the Wiki article on 'Kakistocracy:'

"Therefore we need not make any scruple of praying against such: against
those Sanctimonious Incendiaries, who have fetched fire from heaven to
set their Country in combustion, have pretended Religion to raise and
maintaine a most wicked rebellion: against those Nero's, who have ripped
up the wombe of the mother that bare them, and wounded the breasts that
gave them sucke: against those Cannibal's who feed upon the flesh and
are drunke with the bloud of their own brethren: against those
Catiline's who seeke their private ends in the publicke disturbance, and
have set the Kingdome on fire to rost their owne egges: against those
tempests of the State, those restlesse spirits who can no longer live,
then be stickling and medling; who are stung with a perpetuall itch of
changing and innovating, transforming our old Hierarchy into a new
Presbytery, and this againe into a newer Independency; and our
well-temperd Monarchy into a mad kinde of Kakistocracy. Good Lord!"[ 1644]

difficult, no?

Eduardus

[Patricio]

I know I'm jumping on this a little late, but here it is.


1. Promissis stare mallem quam usquam divitissimus esse.

2. Incipio tibi molestus fieri.

3. Desinite igitur ignavi esse et incipite boni cives fieri.

4. Statim Romam redire et bonus civis fieri statuit.

5. Rex fieri nolle et homo privatus esse malle videbatur.

6. Dicunt te iudicum sententiis ab omni culpa liberatum esse.

7. Cum magistratum petere statuissem, domum redire et suffragia poscere ausus sum.

8. Liberae moriri quam servae vivere mallemus.

9. Traditur eum a populo principibusque delatum regnum accipere noluisse.

10. Manifestum erat dies fatalis adesse, sed cives aut desperare aut se tradere nolebant.

11. Dixit se nec fidem fefelluisse nec rem publicam decepisse.

12. Senatus populusque legatos ad Pyrrhum mittere statuit.


--Patricio

[B. T. Raven]

That all looks pretty good except for 'moriri' instead of 'mori' (3rd conj.)

Here's the actual key:

1. Malo promissis stare (or fidem praestare) quam unus omnium hominum
esse divitissimus.
2. Molestus tibi esse incipio.
3. Desinite ergo timidi (or ignavi) esse et boni cives fieri incipite.
4. Romam statim redire et bonus civis fieri statuit*
5. Videtur rex fieri noluisse et privatus esse maluisse.
6. (Ab) omni culpa te iudicum sententiis liberatum esse dicunt.
7. Cum magistratum petere decrevissem, domum redire et suffragia vestra
poscere ausus sum.
8. Liberi mori malīmus quam servi vivere.
9. Tradunt eum delatum a civitate et principibus regnum accipere noluisse.
10. Diem fatalem iam adesse apparebat; oppidani vero vel desperare vel
se dedere nolebant.

11. Se vel fidem fefellisse vel cives decepisse negavit.

12. Decrevit senatus populusque ut legati ad Pyrrhum mitterentur.

>

Eduardus

[Patricio]

Of course: Wilfred Owen--I should have remembered.


--Patricio

[B. T. Raven]

7b has only four parts. Yodaspeak added for those it might help (mainly
native English speakers):


1. News was now brought to me that my brother, having been struck by a
javelin, and exhausted by many¹ serious wounds, was no longer able
either to keep² the saddle, or lead his men³ against the enemy. Having⁴
heard this, I was much affected, for I could neither hurry to him as⁵ I
wished to do, nor did I expect that he would be able any longer to keep
the enemy in check. It seemed, moreover, that the soldiers who were
with⁶ me were losing heart, and it was said that the enemy was expecting
large reinforcements before night, and would soon take the offensive. I
resolved therefore to try to finish the matter by a single charge.
Now soothly tome announced itis thebrother ofme, byajavelin struck and
bymany andbyserious wounds donein, neither on thehorse tostick now
tobeable nor his(men) against theenemy tolead. Which thing beingheard,
gravely Iam moved; neither, yousee, to him tohasten, that which todo
Iwaswanting, couldI, nor wasIhoping tobegoingtobe that he theenemy
longer toholdincheck wouldbeable. Theywereseeming besides thesoldiers,
who withme were, inspirit tobefailing and theywerebeingsaid
theenemy,thatis (pl.) great before nighfall reinforcements tobeexpecting
and soon atwill arms tobe goingtobringin.

2. Your brother was, he said, a man of⁷ kindly heart, and abounded⁸ in
wealth and resources; and he was sure that he would never desert his
friends, nor wish such a blow to be inflicted on his own relations.
Thebrother ofyou withaveryhuman aman withanature tobe and withriches
andwithresources toabound hesaid, and for sure himself tobelieve neither
to(his)friends him ever goingtodesert tobe nor bysogreat byacalamity
relations hisown tobeaffected towant.

3. It seems that he had resolved to become consul in that year, but that
he pretended to be craving for repose and quiet.
Heseems inthat year consul tobecome tohavedecided, but tohavepretended
leisure himself and quiet todesire.

4. He was unwilling, he replied, to despair, but would rather be in
exile than be a slave.
Todespair himself nottowant heanswered, but togointoexile toprefer
(rather)than aslave tobe.



1 In English we join the adjective many with another adjective, “many
excellent men.” In Latin we should insert a conjunction: hominēs multī
optimīque; multī atque optimī hominēs; or … multī, iīque optimī. Of
course we can say adulēscentēs multī or amīcī multī, because these words
are used as substantives. If an adjective is so constantly united with
its noun as to form a single expression, the whole phrase may be
qualified by another adjective without a conjunction. Multae nāvēs
longae. Many ships of war.

2 in equō haerēre.

3 suī.
Where English uses the nouns “men,” “things,” qualified by an adjective,
Latin frequently uses an adjective as a noun; for the inflections of the
Latin adjective are a sufficient indication of gender.
Bonī sapientēsque (ex) cīvitāte pelluntur.
The good and wise men are being banished (literally, driven from the state).
Iam nostrī aderant.
Our men (or soldiers) were now at hand.
Omnia mea mēcum portō.
I am carrying all my property with me.

4 As compared with English, Latin is deficient in participles; and in

writing Latin prose it is essential to keep clearly in mind the
following facts: (a) The Latin past (i.e. perfect) participle is passive
and not active (except when derived from a deponent verb: see Intr. 31)
amātus means “having been loved,” not “having loved.” (b) The present
and future participles are always active. The lack of a past (i.e.
perfect) participle active is especially troublesome when turning
English into Latin; but there are two common ways in which the
difficulty can be surmounted.
Either (i) a subordinate clause may be used; for “having heard this, he
returned” we may write: cum hoc audīvisset, rediit. Or (ii) advantage
may be taken of the past (i.e. perfect) participle passive ītself, by
using a construction known as the Ablative Absolute. In this
construction a noun (or pronoun) and a past (i.e. perfect) participle
passive are put in the ablative case to show in what circumstances the
action of a finite verb takes place. Thus, for “having heard this, he
returned,” we may write: hōc audītō (literally “this having been
heard”), rediit.

5 Sometimes a relative clause refers not to a single word, but to the
whole statement made by the main sentence. When this is the case, the
main sentence is summed up in an appositional id (or rēs), to which the
quod (or quae) of the subordinate clause refers.
Tīmoleōn, id quod difficilius putātur, sapientius tulit secundam quam
adversam fortūnam.
Timoleon, though this (lit. a thing which) is thought the more difficult
(task), bore prosperity more wisely than adversity.

6 (a) With passive verbs and participles, the thing by which or with
which (the instrument or means) the action is performed, stands in the
ablative; the person by whom (the agent), in the ablative with the
preposition ā or ab.
Castra vallō fossāque ā mīlitibus mūnīta sunt.
The camp has been fortified by the soldiers with a rampart and ditch.
(b) But when English “with” means “together or in company with” the
preposition cum must be used with the ablative.
Cum tēlō vēnit. He came with a weapon.
Cum Caesare hoc fēcī. I did this with Caesar.
Note—Cum is written after, and as one word with, the ablatives of the
personal and reflexive pronouns (mēcum, tēcum, sēcum, nōbīscum,
vōbīscum), and sometimes after the relative, as quibuscum.

7 Abl.

8 abundō or circumfluō.

[B. T. Raven]

On 2/5/2018 13:05, B. T. Raven wrote:
> Theywereseeming besides thesoldiers, who withme were, inspirit
> tobefailing and theywerebeingsaid theenemy,thatis (pl.) great before
> nighfall reinforcements tobeexpecting and soon atwill arms tobe

> goingtobringin..... Idecided therefore withone withacharge thematter tofinish totry.

[Patricio]

1. Mihi nuntiatum est fratrem pilo ictum atque multis et gravibus vulneribus fatigatum nec iam in equo haerere nec suos in hostes ducere posse. Cum hoc audivissem, admodum commotus sum, nam neque ad eum, id quod volui, contendere potui, neque exspectavi eum hostes iam moderari posse. Milites, praeterea, qui mecum erant, animo deficere videbantur, hostes vero multa subsidia ante solis occasum exspectare et mox arma inferre dicebantur. Itaque mihi uno impetu res conficere conari visum est.

2. Dixit fratrem tuum animo benevolo esse et divitiis opibusque abundare, atque certo scit eum nunquam amicos deserturum esse, nec sperare fore ut tanta calamitas propinquis suis contingat.

3. In illo anno consul fieri constituisse videtur, sed se otii tranquillitatisque appetentem simulabat.

4. Respondit se desperare nolle sed malle se exsulem esse quam servum.


--Patricio

[B. T. Raven]

I sent the key by mistake only to Patricio. Here is what I wrote him in
case anyone in the group is interested:

Macte virtute! There are slight differences from the text of the key but
non substantive difference in meaning.

The key:

1. iam vero mihi nuntiatum est fratrem meum, iaculo ictum et multis
gravibusque vulneribus confectum, neque in equo haerere iam posse neque
suos contra hostem ducere. Qua re audita, graviter sum commotus; neque
enim ad eum contendere, id quod facere volebam, potui, neque sperabam
fore ut ille hostem diutius continere posset. Videbantur praeterea
milites, qui mecum erant, animo deficere et dicebantur hostes magna ante
noctem subsidia exspectare et mox ultro arma esse illaturi. Decrevi
igitur uno impetu rem conficere conari.

2. Fratrem tuum humanissimo hominem ingenio esse et divitiis opibusque
abundare dixit, et pro certo se habere neque amicis eum umquam defuturum
esse neque tanta calamitate propinquos suos affici velle.

3. Videtur eo anno consul fieri statuisse, sed simulasse otium se ac
tranquillitatem desiderare.

4. Desperare se nolle respondit, sed exsulare malle quam servum esse.

Since Patricio's version are the same as the key in meaning I won't
bother trying to forget the key and then make my own version later.

Eduardus