"Honi soit qui mal y pense" (motto of the British Order of the Garter)

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

Schoolboy translation: I honestly think I'm going to be sick.

Actual translation: May he be shamed who thinks badly of it.

Can someone offer a Latin translation? The fewer words the better, as
seems to be the norm.

So far I've come up with this: turpe malum cogitando.

[Ed Cryer]

Your Latin means something like "by thinking shameful evil"; or,
alternatively (taking "turpe" as a substantive) "shame by thinking evil".

What you want is a present participle; cogitans, -antis. But I'd use a
"qui" clause.
"Sit malum (turpe) ei qui malum cogitat" or "Turpetur qui malum cogitat".

Ed

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 16:30:17 +0100, Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller) wrote:
>> Schoolboy translation: I honestly think I'm going to be sick.
>>
>> Actual translation: May he be shamed who thinks badly of it.
>>
>> Can someone offer a Latin translation? The fewer words the better, as
>> seems to be the norm.
>>
>> So far I've come up with this: turpe malum cogitando.
>>
>
>Your Latin means something like "by thinking shameful evil"; or,
>alternatively (taking "turpe" as a substantive) "shame by thinking evil".

Or, since cogitando is also the dative, "shame to the thinking of
evil"?

>What you want is a present participle; cogitans, -antis.

Yes, a present participle beats a gerundive.

>But I'd use a "qui" clause.
>"Sit malum (turpe) ei qui malum cogitat" or "Turpetur qui malum cogitat".
>
>Ed

Much appreciated. I can't even imagine the French using an English
motto for something similar.

[Ed Cryer]

We may have had victories in France, and even parts of it under direct
monarchical control, but we've never ever won it with anything like the
same completeness that the Normans won our island.

We eat mutton, but tend sheep.
We eat beef, but tend cattle.

You can imagine some feudal peasant saying "Today we kill a couple of
pigs, and serve it up in the castle as pork".

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

On 10/6/2017 07:53, Francis Xavier (formerly
Wiedergutmachungantragsteller) wrote:

Cave ne sit tibi pro pudore.

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:42:00 +0100, Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk>

How telling that they have Anglo-Saxon words while alive and
Norman-French words when they're about to be eaten.

BTW I see that I am confusing gerunds with gerundives...more revision
needed!

[Ed Cryer]

Another thing to distinguish is the difference between classical Latin
and Koine Greek natural syntax.
Latin fell dramatically when Christian Greek influence from the NT moved
in; but it had been in danger for centuries from Hellenism.

Your use of a present participle is endemic to Greek, but not Latin.
Cicero, Caesar, Sallust, Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have used it. Not that
they didn't know Greek; but that they knew the difference. Just as we
know the difference between, say, French and German and English. Or, at
least, intellectuals do; and we are the ones who can sift "there are"
from the hideous "there is" with a plural following.

Ed

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 19:27:40 +0100, Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk>

Presumably it was classical Latin they taught us in grammar school?

>Latin fell dramatically when Christian Greek influence from the NT moved
>in; but it had been in danger for centuries from Hellenism.

Timeo Danaos et linguam ferentes?

>Your use of a present participle is endemic to Greek, but not Latin.
>Cicero, Caesar, Sallust, Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have used it. Not that
>they didn't know Greek; but that they knew the difference. Just as we
>know the difference between, say, French and German and English. Or, at
>least, intellectuals do; and we are the ones who can sift "there are"
>from the hideous "there is" with a plural following.
>
>Ed

Yes, there is those of us who do can that :---)

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 13:04:26 -0500, "B. T. Raven" <btr...@nihilo.net>
wrote:

>On 10/6/2017 07:53, Francis Xavier (formerly
>Wiedergutmachungantragsteller) wrote:
>
>Cave ne sit tibi pro pudore.

Yes, that would work too.

My personal preference is for phrases with few words, along the lines
of 'in cervesa veritas'.

[John W Kennedy]

On 10/8/17 8:23 AM, Francis Xavier (formerly

The damage done to English by the Francophiles of the Restoration is
still with us.

>> Your use of a present participle is endemic to Greek, but not Latin.
>> Cicero, Caesar, Sallust, Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have used it. Not that
>> they didn't know Greek; but that they knew the difference. Just as we
>> know the difference between, say, French and German and English. Or, at
>> least, intellectuals do; and we are the ones who can sift "there are"
>>from the hideous "there is" with a plural following.
>>
>> Ed
>
> Yes, there is those of us who do can that :---)
>

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

Ah, you mean the 'e' they forced us to put at the end of 'Concord'?

[John W Kennedy]

On 10/8/17 1:13 PM, Francis Xavier (formerly

I was thinking more of the factitious “rules” about not ending sentences
with prepositions, not splitting infinitives, etc., and the phantasy of
“poetic justice” that led Nahum Tate to give “Lear” a happy ending out
of a sense of propriety.

[Francis Xavier (formerly Wiedergutmachungantragsteller)]

On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 21:39:49 -0400, John W Kennedy

These rules lead to absurdities such as the one penned by Winston
Churchill: "This is the sort of English up with which I will not
put."

[John W Kennedy]

On 10/9/17 10:22 AM, Francis Xavier (formerly

Lewis used, “...Frenchified schoolroom superstition.”