ludo mentis aciem

skis...@gmail.com

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Oct 30, 2013, 6:24:02 PM10/30/13

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Hi

I am trying to understand the Latin phrase "ludo mentis aciem", as used in the poem O Fortuna in the Carmina Burana. It has been translated as "as fancy takes it". I am trying to understand it:

ludo = dative or ablative singular of noun ludus, play
mentis = genitive singular of noun mens, mind
aciem = accusative singular of noun acies, sharp edge or point

I can see how "play of mind" is "fancy", but am struggling with how "aciem" fits into it, and also the grammar, of how these three words fit together.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks
Simon

[In case anyone wants to see the phrase in context, the first verse reads:

O Fortuna
velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis
aut decrescis;
vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat
et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,
egestatem,
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem.

Ed Cryer

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Oct 30, 2013, 6:41:56 PM10/30/13

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Take "mentis aciem" together; as in Cicero. "Sharpness of mind".
"Ludo" ablative; "in a game".

nunc obdurat
et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,

= "now it hardens and then it cures sharpness of mind in its game (at
will, as fancy takes it, playfully).

Ed

Evertjan.

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Oct 30, 2013, 7:21:05 PM10/30/13

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Ed Cryer wrote on 30 okt 2013 in alt.language.latin:

> Take "mentis aciem" together; as in Cicero. "Sharpness of mind".
> "Ludo" ablative; "in a game".

[Detestable life (obj./nom.) ... , , ... dissolves/melts (verb) ... ]
like a joke, the sharpness of the mind (subj./acc.)
[... like a piece of ice].

...
vita detestabilis,
nunc obdurat,
et tunc curat,

ludo mentis aciem,
egestatem,
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem.

Carmina Burana, O Fortuna, early 13th c.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Fortuna>
<http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Fortuna>

Ed Cryer

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Oct 31, 2013, 8:25:11 AM10/31/13

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Nice one.
It could be. The punctuation seems to allow either interpretation.
Personally, to get yours I'd have put a full stop after "curat".

Ed

Evertjan.

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Oct 31, 2013, 8:34:55 AM10/31/13

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There wouldn't be a nominative for dissolvit in that case, methinks.

Anyway, the punctuation surely is not 13th c.?

Alternatively, what about ludo as a verb [I play, jest]?

Ed Cryer

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Oct 31, 2013, 8:48:51 AM10/31/13

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There's a nominative alright; "vita detestabilis".
It's all a question of whether "mentis aciem" goes with "obdurat et
curat" or with "dissolvit".

My recording by the Boston Symphony favours my interpretation with their
phrasing.

Ed

Ed Cryer

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Oct 31, 2013, 5:08:19 PM10/31/13

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Further reflection on this stanza has led me into a real linguist's
nightmare; and maybe a philosopher's justification for the thesis that
language hides truth.

It's possible to take "ludo mentis" as a phrase; in a mind game. And
then "aciem" stands on its own with the meaning it has in Caesar and the
military historians of ancient Rome; battle-line.

In addition "aciem" can be the object of both "obdurat et curat" as well
as of "dissolvit".

Verily, methinks there be some fair modicum of method in this madness of
linguistic ambiguity. For the grammar and syntax of the Latin words
themselves do fall foul of the notion of Fortuna; in that it doth melt
like ice everything it touches.

Ed

cjh...@gmail.com

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Nov 30, 2014, 2:12:49 AM11/30/14

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I believe ludo is in the ablative case; viz., adverbial, providing the means by which the verb operates. Here, "by a trick..." (While ludus is most often "game" it is also a "trick"; which possibly fits here.)

I've placed a possible literal translation in parentheses next to each line; and because of English word order, the last 3 lines together into a single line and added words in braces.

More idiomatically, the last line perhaps means, "Fortune tricks a keen mind into dissolving the difference between extreme poverty and wealth as though they were water from melted ice." The idea being Fortune is ever changing, waxing and waning, thereby following that life is horrible, it too changing from hard to considerate. With life changing so much, one's mind is tricked into believing there is no difference between being in control (potestas, -atis: power to do something) vs. powerless (egestas, -atis: need; extreme poverty).

Interestingly, (perhaps at least to nerds posting about a Latin poem), dissolvo -solvere also means: to release a person from difficulties. So a less literal translation might be, "Fortune tricks a keen mind into believing it is released from the difficulties between being controlled, or being in control, as though the two were melted together just like melted water from ice."

While it's possible that the only other nominative case (horrible life) is the subject, it seems better that Fortune is being described the entire time rather than the subject changing from Fortune to a horrible life as the subject. This is also supported by the grammar. A semicolon is more suited to continuing the same subject; otherwise a period would be more appropriate.

O Fortuna (O Fortune)
velut luna (like the moon)
statu variabilis (regularly changing)
semper crescis (you always wax)
aut decrescis; (or else you wane;)
vita detestabilis (horrible life)
nunc obdurate (now hard-hearted)
et tunc curat (and next considerate)
ludo mentis aciem, (by a trick of a keen mind)
egestatem, (
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem. [Fortune] dissolves poverty [and] power as if [they were] melt[ed] ice.)

cjh...@gmail.com

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Nov 30, 2014, 2:31:00 AM11/30/14

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On second thought, the literal translation leads to a more straightforward idiomatic translation with Fortune using its keen mind to do the tricking.

So, "Fortune, by a trick of a keen mind, dissolves being controlled and being in control as if they were indistinguishable like the water from melted ice."

Evertjan.

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Nov 30, 2014, 4:10:53 AM11/30/14

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cjh...@gmail.com wrote on 30 nov 2014 in alt.language.latin:

> On second thought,

If you response to something on usenet,
you should quote that, including attribution.

This is not email,
nor a google group,
nor your private blog.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

Johannes Patruus

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Nov 30, 2014, 4:18:54 AM11/30/14

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Previous discussion -
http://alt.language.latin.narkive.com/drLS9hMy/ludo-mentis-aciem

Patruus

B. T. Raven

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Nov 30, 2014, 9:26:24 AM11/30/14

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<d5e820f2-8b38-4d0b...@googlegroups.com>skis...@gmail.comWed, 30
Oct 2013 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT)

>
>Hi
>
>I am trying to understand the Latin phrase "ludo mentis aciem", as used in the
>poem O Fortuna in the Carmina Burana. It has been translated as "as fancy takes
>it". I am trying to understand it:
>
>ludo = dative or ablative singular of noun ludus, play
>mentis = genitive singular of noun mens, mind
>aciem = accusative singular of noun acies, sharp edge or point
>
>I can see how "play of mind" is "fancy", but am struggling with how "aciem" fits
>into it, and also the grammar, of how these three words fit together.
>
>Can anyone enlighten me?
>
>Thanks
>Simon
>
>[In case anyone wants to see the phrase in context, the first verse reads:
>

Remember that Fortuna here is in the vocative. The three parts are:

>O Fortuna
>velut luna
>statu variabilis,
>semper crescis
>aut decrescis;

and

>vita detestabilis
>nunc obdurat
>et tunc curat
>ludo mentis aciem,

and

>egestatem,
>potestatem
>dissolvit ut glaciem.

ludo can be 'at a whim,' 'by a trick,' etc.

The subject of dissolvit is 'vita.'

Eduardus