Looking for motto suggestions
Blair
are in the process of developing a unique crest and motto for the
department. With that as a bit of background I am looking for some
translations of some sayings. They may end up being too long to put on any
sort of crest but I won't know until I find out what they translate too.
Any assistance would be just great.
1) Integrity Is The Foundation Of Our Profession (or even Founded on
Integrity if that is shorter)
2) Let the truth be known
3) Defenders of Truth (Defensor Veritas, or is it Veritas Defensor
perhaps?)
4) Truth According to Law (Veritas De Iure perhaps?)
5) Duty to the people (Officium Ad Populum perhaps?)
6) Truth Conquors All (Vertitas Onmia Vincit perhaps?)
As you can see, I tried to work some of these through myself. I hope I
didn't butcher them too much but then again my knowledge of Latin only
started about 2 hours ago (and yes, I know it shows)
Anyway, any assistance with any of the above phrases would be greatly
appreciated and by all means, if anyone out there has any ideas for a short,
police centric, Latin motto I would be more then open to suggestions.
Thanks ever so much.
Blair
Edward Casey
"Blair" <bla...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:daHw9.144351$Q3S.1...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Hello everyone. I work for a small newly formed police department and we
> are in the process of developing a unique crest and motto for the
> department. With that as a bit of background I am looking for some
> translations of some sayings. They may end up being too long to put on any
> sort of crest but I won't know until I find out what they translate too.
> Any assistance would be just great.
>
> 1) Integrity Is The Foundation Of Our Profession (or even Founded on
> Integrity if that is shorter)
probitas fundamen professionis
It's shorter: probitate condita
>
> 2) Let the truth be known
utinam veritas noscatur
>
> 3) Defenders of Truth (Defensor Veritas, or is it Veritas Defensor
> perhaps?)
Close: defensores veritatis
>
> 4) Truth According to Law (Veritas De Iure perhaps?)
veritas apud leges. (But I don't understand the English).
>
> 5) Duty to the people (Officium Ad Populum perhaps?)
pietas erga populum
>
> 6) Truth Conquors All (Vertitas Onmia Vincit perhaps?)
You got it almost right: veritas omnia vincit.
>
> As you can see, I tried to work some of these through myself. I hope I
> didn't butcher them too much but then again my knowledge of Latin only
> started about 2 hours ago (and yes, I know it shows)
>
> Anyway, any assistance with any of the above phrases would be greatly
> appreciated and by all means, if anyone out there has any ideas for a short,
> police centric, Latin motto I would be more then open to suggestions.
>
> Thanks ever so much.
>
> Blair
There is one police centric Latin motto, a very well known one, but, alas, it is a two edged sword: "quis custodiet custodes ipsos." = "Who will guard the guards themselves." This calls attention to problems like those portrayed in the movie "Training Day" (admittedly more than a little exaggerated but still real, especially in the megalopoleis [polises?] if not in Mayberry).
You've sure learned a lot of Latin for only two hours' study. Here's some Greek that maybe you already knew. The word "police" comes from the Greek word for city: 'polis.'
Eduardus
Matthew Montchalin
|Hello everyone. I work for a small newly formed police department and
|we are in the process of developing a unique crest and motto for the
|department. With that as a bit of background I am looking for some
|translations of some sayings. They may end up being too long to put
|on any sort of crest but I won't know until I find out what they
|translate too.
Okay.
|Any assistance would be just great.
|
|1) Integrity Is The Foundation Of Our Profession (or even Founded on
|Integrity if that is shorter)
Virtus Ex Officio Nostro
|2) Let the truth be known
Ecce Veritatem = Behold 'Truth'
Scitote Vera Rea = People Will Know Truths 'Judicially Knowable'
|3) Defenders of Truth (Defensor Veritas, or is it Veritas Defensor
|perhaps?)
No, no, 'Custos' is much better. Custodes is the plural. To defend
in the sense of Defensor is to fend off, or fend away. Please don't
use Defensor, unless you are trying to fend off truth and keep it away.
'Verorum Reorum Custodes' = Guardians of True things (Reorum is an
adjective in the genitive plural (reus is masculine singular that
originally meant judicially cognizable.) As a member of the police
department, you probably have heard of the words "mens rea" and
"reus actus?" Well, rea and reus are masculine and feminine versions
of the same adjective. Strictly speaking, it doesn't mean 'guilty,'
but means that it is subject to judicial investigation, reckoning,
and determination.
|4) Truth According to Law (Veritas De Iure perhaps?)
(Quod) Omne Signum Reum Ex Quibus Litteris Ipsius Legis Tractum
Whatever the whole body of evidence of a judicial nature there is,
having been dragged out of whatever letters of Law Herself there
might be. If you want to be realistic, you might want to change
'Tractum' to 'Protractum.'
|5) Duty to the people (Officium Ad Populum perhaps?)
Well, Officium is very close. But if duty is a promise extracted from
the people and discharged through performance, hmmmmm, that's a tough
one. How about:
Populo Sponsum, Responsum, Laboratum
|6) Truth Conquors All (Vertitas Onmia Vincit perhaps?)
But doesn't that open it up to a witticism along the lines of:
Vinum Omnia Vertit
especially when you look at the spelling - VAV
|As you can see, I tried to work some of these through myself. I hope I
|didn't butcher them too much but then again my knowledge of Latin only
|started about 2 hours ago (and yes, I know it shows)
|
|Anyway, any assistance with any of the above phrases would be greatly
|appreciated and by all means, if anyone out there has any ideas for
|a short, police centric, Latin motto I would be more then open to
|suggestions.
You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
something from it.
David Monks
should it have been "Vera Res"?
I read "Scitote Vera Rea" as "Know the True Criminal" (feminine). It's
still on the mark, if a little gender- unbalanced. :-)
Or am I way off the mark?????
as
"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02110...@lab.oregonvos.net...
Evertjan.
> 3) Defenders of Truth (Defensor Veritas, or is it Veritas Defensor
> perhaps?)
you need the accusative of veritas: veritatem
[and no, not the genitivus, it is not ownership]
defedes is plural: defensores
"defensores veritatem"
But as a slogan (motto?) better IMHO:
veritas defendenda [est]
(the truth must be defended)
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Tommi Ojanperä
<exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote:
>you need the accusative of veritas: veritatem
>[and no, not the genitivus, it is not ownership]
>
>defedes is plural: defensores
> "defensores veritatem"
Genetivus qualitatis is more than OK here.
But the real problem is that the meaning is the opposite of what we'd
want in this case. "Defensor" is 'one who fends off or averts'. Hence
"defensores veritatis" means 'those who fend off or avert truth' (cf.
Cicero's "defensor periculi")!
So, I suggest "propugnatores veritatis" (cf. Cicero's "propugnator
patrimonii sui").
Tommi Antero Ojanpera <to...@cc.jyu.fi>
Jyvaskyla, FINLAND <www.jyu.fi/~tojan>
IRACVNDIAM QVI VINCIT HOSTEM SVPERAT MAXIMAM
- PVBLILIVS SYRVS
Edward Casey
"Tommi Ojanperä" <to...@cc.jyu.fi> wrote in message news:3dc3d737...@news.jyu.fi...
But I think we have to assume that the great Renaissance prelate Leo X (who was already a cardinal in teneris unguibus) knew Latin better than we do. He conferred the title of "defensor fidei" on Henry VIII. Now it turned out that Hank later fended off the faith, at least from the Roman Church's point of view but in its original sense the title meant 'tutor, praeses, vindex, cognitor, curator, patronus, advocatus, causidicus.' So a defender of something or someone is one who wards off dangers to that thing or person.
Eduardus
Tommi Ojanperä
<ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote:
>But I think we have to assume that the great Renaissance prelate Leo X =
>(who was already a cardinal in teneris unguibus) knew Latin better than =
>we do.
It is not a question of knowing "better". It all depends on whether
for this motto one wants to use the Medieval Latin of Leo X or the
Classical Latin of Cicero. I personally prefer the latter, but it is
a matter of taste, really.
Tommi Antero Ojanpera <to...@cc.jyu.fi>
Jyvaskyla, FINLAND <www.jyu.fi/~tojan>
NVLLVM EST IAM DICTVM QVOD NON SIT DICTVM PRIVS
- PVBLIVS TERENTIVS AFER
Edward Casey
"Tommi Ojanperä" <to...@cc.jyu.fi> wrote in message news:3dc3e686...@news.jyu.fi...
But Cicero writes: "defensor paterni juris" and "defensor juris et libertatis." Surely he is talking about being a defender for liberty and not against. Also "defensor" is used as an antonym of "accusator."
Eduardus
Phil Dragoman
Tommi Ojanperä wrote in message <3dc3d737...@news.jyu.fi>...
Mihi placet adagii Publilii lectio altera tua. O dulcis ultio - nostra
esto! Vincimini vos iustitiae ac libertatis hostes!
( paenitet me, nec casu vocativo nec modo imperativo generis
passivi ad nomina inanima adhibitis uti soleo. Me cepisse
debet ultioni aviditas studiumque. ;-) )
Vale,
Phil
Phil Dragoman
Edward Casey wrote in message ...
------
Odi profanum grammaticum et arceo. :-)))
BTW, how come your posts now are very wide and the little greater-than
signs don't appear in front of your words when replying. I hope my computer
is not allergic to '>' 's.
Regards,
Phil
Blair
although I don't think the Chief will buy into it. lol
I was surpized I came as close as I did on some of them. All I have been
doing was looking through established web sites and just substituting words
where I could.
Anyways, thanks again.
Blair
"Edward Casey" <ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote in message
news:us6iu47...@corp.supernews.com...
Tommi Ojanperä
<ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote:
>But Cicero writes: "defensor paterni juris" and "defensor juris et =
>libertatis." Surely he is talking about being a defender for liberty and =
>not against. Also "defensor" is used as an antonym of "accusator."
Very well -- I stand corrected!
It is quite evident that this a more recent "interpretation" of the
word -- but certainly old enough to be considered Classical Latin.
Of course, one can only deliberately misunderstand such expressions.
However, by using "propugnator", one gives no room for such deliberate
misunderstandings -- but I must admit to feeling that it lacks some of
the elegance of "defensor". Furthermore, the word "defensor" is much
more easily understood by those who haven't studied any Latin, and
therefore is the more obvious choice for a modern motto.
Tommi Antero Ojanpera <to...@cc.jyu.fi>
Jyvaskyla, FINLAND <www.jyu.fi/~tojan>
HVMANITATIS OPTIMA EST CERTATIO
- PVBLILIVS SYRVS
Edward Casey
"Phil Dragoman" <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote in message news:aq0rit$5g34e$2...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de...
Eduardus Philippo contubernalibusque sal.:
Don't know why you aren't seeing the ">'s." My settings for both read and write show "prefix quoted text with >. I recently put a few Red Hat Linux partitions on this machine but they shouldn't be so unmannerly as to corrupt Miss Dos-Windoze. It's usually the other way around. Does anyone else see the same problem as Phil does?
valete
John Woodgate
<mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote (in <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211020358070.9872-100
0...@lab.oregonvos.net>) about 'Looking for motto suggestions', on Sat, 2
Nov 2002:
>You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
>something from it.
Is there anything in there about 'Pollice truncata'? (;-)
It seems singularly appropriate for London's finest at this time.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
John Flynn
> Don't know why you aren't seeing the ">'s." My settings for both read
> and write show "prefix quoted text with >. I recently put a few Red Hat
> Linux partitions on this machine but they shouldn't be so unmannerly as
> to corrupt Miss Dos-Windoze. It's usually the other way around. Does
> anyone else see the same problem as Phil does?
Yes.
Partially.
Since you tried the macron experiment, I've noticed that your
messages don't continue any hard line-breaks except when you've
physically pressed the Return key. I.e. when you've come to the
end of a paragraph. This makes each paragraph you've typed be
arranged on one, very long, continuous line.
I don't see anything wrong with ">" bit, though.
--
johnF
John Flynn
> don't continue any hard line-breaks
Sorry: "... don't contain any..."
--
johnF
Johannes Patruus
Quote
Eduardus Philippo contubernalibusque sal.:
Don't know why you aren't seeing the ">'s." My settings for both read and
write show "prefix quoted text with >. I recently put a few Red Hat Linux
partitions on this machine but they shouldn't be so unmannerly as to corrupt
Miss Dos-Windoze. It's usually the other way around. Does anyone else see
the same problem as Phil does?
Unquote
I too am missing the ">"s. I recall having encountered this oddity once
before, when replying to a post of 26 October by Lucas Pietsch in the
"Unicode (UTF-7) macron test" thread. In that instance, once I'd convinced
myself it wasn't due to a hallucinogen in the tea, I inserted the ">"s
manually.
Johannes
pebal
As I write this, I have in front of me a Brit coin which bears the letters
F.D.: FIDEI DEFENSOR. No doubt Pope Leo X regretted bestowing the title on
Heny VIII, and possibly after the break with Rome he re-interpreted it in
your sense as "One who keeps the faith away". The fact is, however, that the
genitive is most commonly used of the object defended, not that defended
against.
But I like CVSTODES, because it sounds nicer.
pebal
pebal
SIT VERITAS MANIFESTA
VERITATIS DEFENSORES
CIVITATIS IN OFFICIVM
VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS
These are my first shots.
You sound to be very virtuous police. RARA AVIS IN TERRIS NIGROQVE SIMILLIMA
CYCNO.
pebal
Matthew Montchalin
|Matthew, did you inadvertently slip an "a" for an "s" in Vera Rea?, i.e.
|should it have been "Vera Res"?
Multa vera sunt rea. "Many true things are judicially cognizable."
Multum verum est reum. "Many a true thing is judicially cognizable."
Matthew Montchalin
|On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 09:12:11 -0600, "Edward Casey"
|<ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote:
|
|>But Cicero writes: "defensor paterni juris" and "defensor juris et =
|>libertatis." Surely he is talking about being a defender for liberty and =
|>not against. Also "defensor" is used as an antonym of "accusator."
|
|Very well -- I stand corrected!
Me too, but I still like 'custos' instead.
Matthew Montchalin
|But as a slogan (motto?) better IMHO:
|
| veritas defendenda [est]
|
| (the truth must be defended)
Veritatem Vereamur. Let us fear the truth.
Matthew Montchalin
|Hello Matthew
|
|As I write this, I have in front of me a Brit coin which bears the letters
|F.D.: FIDEI DEFENSOR. No doubt Pope Leo X regretted bestowing the title
|on Heny VIII, and possibly after the break with Rome he re-interpreted
|it in your sense as "One who keeps the faith away".
Sort of like a double entendre, I think.
|The fact is, however, that the genitive is most commonly used of the
|object defended, not that defended against.
I've got to remember that.
|But I like CVSTODES, because it sounds nicer.
Yes, me too. 'Guardians of the Truth' is how it comes out if he
uses 'custodes' in preference to 'defensores.' But depending on
how active the defense is, 'Propugnatores' sounds good, too.
Evertjan.
Nil nisi veritas.
[Nothing but the truth]
In vino veritas
[The truth is in the wine]
Phil Dragoman
John Woodgate wrote in message ...
>I read in sci.lang.translation that Matthew Montchalin
><mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote (in <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211020358070.9872-100
>0...@lab.oregonvos.net>) about 'Looking for motto suggestions', on Sat, 2
>Nov 2002:
>>You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
>>something from it.
>
>Is there anything in there about 'Pollice truncata'? (;-)
>It seems singularly appropriate for London's finest at this time.
Or pollice inculato, if you're referring to their handling of the case
of the butler that didn't do it.
It's stuff like this that makes me regret that the Founding Fathers
didn't opt for a monarchy. I was looking forward to Burrell's
testimony, something to break the spate of otherwise depressing
news over here.
BTW, shouldn't Mrs. Windsor be charged with obstruction or
something?
Regards,
Phil
Jean Dufresne
>
> BTW, shouldn't Mrs. Windsor be charged with obstruction or
> something?
Would the case be called "The Queen vs Windsor" ?
--
Jean
Blair
be:
"Regina v Regina"
hehe (OK, so maybe my 2 hours of latin study didn't pay off 100% but even I
picked up on it)
"Jean Dufresne" <dufr...@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:3DC485...@globetrotter.net...
Matthew Montchalin
|>You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
|>something from it.
Officium is - very broadly - a 'duty.' And Cicero uses it explicitly
as such. See Book I of Cicero's work, DE OFFICIIS, where he invokes
circumlocutions surrounding or refining the word 'officium' to approach
such Greek words as katorthOma and kathEkon. At least in Latin, there
must be concepts that can only be approached with circumlocutions -
officium rectum, officium medium, officium honestum. Discharging a
duty, I take it, is probably something much more than just doing a job
(agendum, laborandum, elaborandum)...
|Is there anything in there about 'Pollice truncata'? (;-)
|
|It seems singularly appropriate for London's finest at this time.
Can you bring me up to date on the issue as it relates to a thumb
or toe that has been lopped off? This must be another of those
British things over there that happen every now and then?
John Woodgate
<phil.d...@literally.com> wrote (in <aq1pdu$5t78o$1@ID-
60297.news.dfncis.de>) about 'Looking for motto suggestions', on Sat, 2
Nov 2002:
>BTW, shouldn't Mrs. Windsor be charged with obstruction or
>something?
I think it's just a symptom of the Royals being half on another planet.
The condition is infectious, of course. Burrell didn't disclose, even to
his lawyer, what he told the Queen, because one doesn't 'do' that.
John Woodgate
<dufr...@globetrotter.net> wrote (in <3DC485...@globetrotter.net>)
about 'Looking for motto suggestions', on Sun, 3 Nov 2002:
certain circumstances. (See 'The Winslow Boy'.)
John Woodgate
>|>You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
>|>something from it.
>
>Officium is - very broadly - a 'duty.' And Cicero uses it explicitly
>as such. See Book I of Cicero's work, DE OFFICIIS, where he invokes
>circumlocutions surrounding or refining the word 'officium' to approach
>such Greek words as katorthOma and kathEkon. At least in Latin, there
>must be concepts that can only be approached with circumlocutions -
>officium rectum, officium medium, officium honestum. Discharging a
>duty, I take it, is probably something much more than just doing a job
>(agendum, laborandum, elaborandum)...
>
>|Is there anything in there about 'Pollice truncata'? (;-)
>|
>|It seems singularly appropriate for London's finest at this time.
>
>Can you bring me up to date on the issue
The 'Diana's butler' trial is the issue
> as it relates to a thumb
>or toe that has been lopped off? This must be another of those
>British things over there that happen every now and then?
>
Well, it's a bit tedious to explain jokes, but you can see:
1. Pollice - pol(l)ice
2. truncata - cut short, like the trial
3. Pollice truncata - thumb cut off - self-mutilation to avoid military
service
4. Pollice truncata - said to be the origin of the English word
'poltroon' - a gross and stupid person.
Edward Casey
> <mmon...@OregonVOS.net <mailto:mmon...@OregonVOS.net>> wrote (in <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211022048560.2956-100
> 0...@lab.oregonvos.net <mailto:0...@lab.oregonvos.net>>) about 'Looking for motto suggestions', on Sat, 2
> Nov 2002:
> >On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, John Woodgate wrote:
> >|>You ought to pick up a copy of Cicero's "De Officiis" and lift
> >|>something from it.
> >
> >Officium is - very broadly - a 'duty.' And Cicero uses it explicitly
> >as such. See Book I of Cicero's work, DE OFFICIIS, where he invokes
> >circumlocutions surrounding or refining the word 'officium' to approach
> >such Greek words as katorthOma and kathEkon. At least in Latin, there
> >must be concepts that can only be approached with circumlocutions -
> >officium rectum, officium medium, officium honestum. Discharging a
> >duty, I take it, is probably something much more than just doing a job
> >(agendum, laborandum, elaborandum)...
> >
> >|Is there anything in there about 'Pollice truncata'? (;-)
> >|
> >|It seems singularly appropriate for London's finest at this time.
> >
> >Can you bring me up to date on the issue
>
> The 'Diana's butler' trial is the issue
>
> > as it relates to a thumb
> >or toe that has been lopped off? This must be another of those
> >British things over there that happen every now and then?
> >
> Well, it's a bit tedious to explain jokes, but you can see:
>
> 1. Pollice - pol(l)ice
>
> 2. truncata - cut short, like the trial
Better "truncato" since "pollex, pollicis" is masculine.
>
> 3. Pollice truncata - thumb cut off - self-mutilation to avoid military
> service
>
> 4. Pollice truncata - said to be the origin of the English word
> 'poltroon' - a gross and stupid person.
A more likely meaning and etymology of "poltroon" is "a spiritless coward" from French "poltron" < Italian "poltrone" = sluggard < "poltro" = bed (cf. polstar, bolstar, bolster).
Eduardus
David Monks
My dictionary - a poor enough one - give Reus as :
Culrpit, accused, defendant, criminal..
I am happy to learn a little and bow to your knowledge.
David
"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.021102...@lab.oregonvos.net...
David Monks
>
>
> BTW, shouldn't Mrs. Windsor be charged with obstruction or
> something?
>
I don't believe this is possible. She is above all law.
David
Matthew Montchalin
What about the Magna Carta? (Is that spelled Magna Charta?)
Matthew Johnson
<mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, Blair wrote:
>|Hello everyone. I work for a small newly formed police department and
>|we are in the process of developing a unique crest and motto for the
>|department. With that as a bit of background I am looking for some
>|translations of some sayings. They may end up being too long to put
>|on any sort of crest but I won't know until I find out what they
>|translate too.
>
>Okay.
>
>|Any assistance would be just great.
>|
>|1) Integrity Is The Foundation Of Our Profession (or even Founded on
>|Integrity if that is shorter)
>
> Virtus Ex Officio Nostro
You want to translate 'integrity' as 'virtus'? Even though Jerome uses
'integritas'? At least Jerome's choice was more precise. You don't
_have_ to stick to Ciceronian Latin for mottos.
>|2) Let the truth be known
>
> Ecce Veritatem = Behold 'Truth'
> Scitote Vera Rea = People Will Know Truths 'Judicially Knowable'
>
>|3) Defenders of Truth (Defensor Veritas, or is it Veritas Defensor
>|perhaps?)
Neither, it would have to be 'defensores veritates'.
>
>No, no, 'Custos' is much better.
Not necessarily. Do you know what 'defensor fidei' means?
> Custodes is the plural. To defend
>in the sense of Defensor is to fend off, or fend away.
Only in the _really old_ Latin. In Medieval Latin, as my
counterexample above shows, 'defensor' is quite usable here.
> Please don't
>use Defensor, unless you are trying to fend off truth and keep it away.
Again, the counterexample above disproves this. Besides: Lewis & Short
do not support you either. It gives TWO definitions, #1 agrees with
yours, #2 agrees with the classic title 'defensor fidei', i.e. it
reads: "a defendor, protector". It also gives Classical citations for
this meaning.
>'Verorum Reorum Custodes' = Guardians of True things (Reorum is an
>adjective in the genitive plural (reus is masculine singular that
>originally meant judicially cognizable.)
The genitive plural of 'things' is rerum, not reorum. Reorum is
genitive plural of 'reus', the guilty person. I am sure that is not
what you meant!
[snip]
Matthew Montchalin
|>'Verorum Reorum Custodes' = Guardians of True things (Reorum is an
|>adjective in the genitive plural (reus is masculine singular that
|>originally meant judicially cognizable.)
|
|The genitive plural of 'things' is rerum, not reorum. Reorum is
|genitive plural of 'reus', the guilty person.
Reus is more often a "party claimant" than a "guilty person." (There
seem nowadays to be many more civil actions than criminal actions, so
I guess that many people that abuse the legal system are 'guilty' sorts.)
|I am sure that is not what you meant!
I intended to employ 'verum' as the substantive, and 'reus' as the
adjective. But examining the Oxford Latin Dictionary implies that
the nouns reus and rea exist, no reum in the neuter. That seems
to prevent use of reus as an ordinary adjective. So, I apologize
if anyone was led to believe there could be a neuter form to 'reus'
(although I still thing there ought to be).
According to the Oxford Latin Dictionary, both reus and rea, as
originally employed, were parties to a lawsuit, whether as plaintiffs
or defendants. The Oxford Latin Dictionary supports this by citing
the Twelve Tables (the original laws of Ancient Rome, memorialized
in bronze):
Quid horum [sc. disabilities] fuit unum iudici arbitroue
REOVE, eo dies diffissus esto. * * *
In addition to this, Cicero provides us with:
REOS . . . appello non eos modo, qui arguuntur, sed omnis,
quorum de re disceptatur; sic enim olim loquebantur.
Etymologically, we know that both reus and rea are related to the
deponent verb 'reor, reari, ratus sum' (make a pronouncement on,
whether by tallying, figuring, supposing, or guessing). The Oxford
Latin Dictionary traces reus and rea to an earlier Sanskrit form,
"arAyaH."
David Monks
Charta/Carta notwithstanding, Queen Elizabeth cannot commit a criminal
offense.
Regina v Regina would be a bit silly, I suppose.
David
"Matthew Montchalin" <mmon...@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02110...@lab.oregonvos.net...
Edwin Menes
It cites the Sanskrit as a collateral form, that is, a word descended
from the same PIE root. Latin does not descend from Sanskrit.
Also, notice that Cicero says of the meaning of 'reus' you want to use:
'sic enim olim loquebantur.' The key is 'olim'. Cicero has to explain
it to the jury in the locus you cite. In Cicero's time, as almost every
other use of 'reus' in Cicero's corpus indicates, it meant 'defendant',
a term applicable in both civil and criminal law. It seems to have
retained that meaning in Medieval Latin, for the 'Dies Irae' contains
the phrase 'iudicandos reos'.
Dictionary entries give all possible meanings of a word. They tend not
to tell you what the usual meaning is. Anything you find on the
English-Latin side needs to be checked on the Latin-English side also,
to begin with, then (if possible) with searchable texts in
machine-readable form--out of the reach of most of us right now, I know,
Matthew Montchalin
|Careful here. The OLD does not trace reus to an older Sanskrit form.
|It cites the Sanskrit as a collateral form, that is, a word descended
|from the same PIE root.
Ah, thanks for the correction.
|Latin does not descend from Sanskrit.
No, certainly not.
|Also, notice that Cicero says of the meaning of 'reus' you want to use:
|'sic enim olim loquebantur.' The key is 'olim'. Cicero has to explain
|it to the jury in the locus you cite. In Cicero's time, as almost every
|other use of 'reus' in Cicero's corpus indicates, it meant 'defendant',
|a term applicable in both civil and criminal law.
Okay, and not every defendant is a criminal.
|It seems to have retained that meaning in Medieval Latin, for the 'Dies
|Irae' contains the phrase 'iudicandos reos'.
|
|Dictionary entries give all possible meanings of a word. They tend
|not to tell you what the usual meaning is. Anything you find on the
|English-Latin side needs to be checked on the Latin-English side also,
|to begin with, then (if possible) with searchable texts in machine-
|readable form--out of the reach of most of us right now, I know,
Okay.
Owain
> Anyway, any assistance with any of the above phrases would be greatly
> appreciated and by all means, if anyone out there has any ideas for a short,
> police centric, Latin motto I would be more then open to suggestions.
The Scottish police forces all have "Sepmer Vigilo" (Always Vigilant)
Owain
Owain
should have typed: Semper Vigilo
Owain