it clamor caelo

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

I find "it" here

in "it clamor caelo"


strange, as tho it were
somehow transported back from modern
English to classical Latin. Does "it" as
it appears in this quote serve the same
function of impersonalization that it has
in English?

Here is a relevant reference:



http://books.google.com/books?id=WmT6mS5v4dAC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=it+clamor+caelo&source=bl&ots=W2lZTG2msz&sig=rBLwYdTdD7Xto2Qh_XbtzI2XzDo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VzMU9eQGuSIjAKm6IHQBg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=it%20clamor%20caelo&f=false

[Ed Cryer]

Yes, if I take you a'right.
A shout goes to the sky.

How about this famous couplet from Vergil?
Extemplo Libyae magnas it Fama per urbes,
Fama, malum qua non aliud velocius ullum:
(immediately Rumour goes through the great cities of Libya; Rumour, an
evil than which no other is swifter)

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Vergil was very fond of this "it" usage. I've found these in the Aeneid.
He particularly likes to put "it" in front, and not just to fit the metre.

it stridor
it clamor
it timor
it hasta
it cruor
it gemitus
it .. tempestas telorum
it fumus
it pectore summo ... circulus auri.
it bello tessera signum
talibus et dictis it contra dicta tyranni

There's something about the way he uses this that I can't put a name to,
but I feel it quite strongly.
Take "it clamor" and change it around to "clamor it". The former sounds
epic and grandiose, whereas the latter sounds mundane. You can get
something of this feel from "there rises applause" and "applause rises".

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

The dative case is sometimes used by Vergil in ways that grammarians
frown upon.
The best known one is "facilis descensus Averno"; the way down to Hell
is easy.

A grammarian would take the dative here as going with "facilis"; the way
down is easy for Avernus.
But there's no doubt at all from the context that the former is what V
means.

Ed

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

I am stay confused because it still
seems to me that the "it" in "it clamor caelo"
is used in an "un-Latin" way as an
impersonalizing
particle very similar to the way it is
used in English. Am I totally wrong here?

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:

So, if I have Ed aright, then

"it shouts to the sky"

is Vergil's meaning, and,
accordingly it has, at least
to me, an oddly English
syntax.

[Will Parsons]

You do realize that "it" is a verb, don't you? If you think that
Latin "it" is somehow equivalent to English "it", then you are
confused.

--
Will

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:

No, I did not realize "it" was a verb.
And, yes, that being the case, I was
much confused.

Thanks.

What verb?

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:

Never mind, I found it.

That's the good news,
the bad,
is that I needed to search.

Thanks again for getting me over
this embarrassing piece of
ignorance.

[Will Parsons]

jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I find "it" here
>>

>> http://books.google.com/books?id=WmT6mS5v4dAC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=it+clamor+caelo&source=bl&ots=W2lZTG2msz&sig=rBLwYdTdD7Xto2Qh_XbtzI2XzDo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7VzMU9eQGuSIjAKm6IHQBg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=it%20clamor%20caelo&f=false
>
> Never mind, I found it.
>
> That's the good news,
> the bad,
> is that I needed to search.
>
> Thanks again for getting me over
> this embarrassing piece of
> ignorance.

Don't be too embarassed. It's quite easy to fall into this kind of
trap.

--
Will

[Evertjan.]

Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote on 22 jul 2014 in
alt.language.latin:

> jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I find "it" here

[..]

>> Thanks again for getting me over
>> this embarrassing piece of
>> ignorance.
>
> Don't be too embarassed. It's quite easy to fall into this kind of
> trap.

Indeed it is quite easy to fall.

As the original "it" was printed with italics,
like the rest of the Latin frase,
I would not call it a 'trap'.

Traps are purposely build,
only indirectly linked to natural selection.

The 'it', two sentences down in 'it denotes the goal of the motion' is
not about the 'it' in question, but about 'the dative caelo'.


--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Ed Cryer]

Maybe you thought of "ita". Things like that are easily done by all of us.

Ed

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:

While you fellows are way ahead of me
in both vulgar and classical Latin, it
occurs to me that, coming to this
"it clamor caelo" business sort of
from the outside, I maybe see it in
a different framework. To be specific,
the mind seems to have motives to
move verbs towards nouns and vice
versa and Vergil with his "it
clamor caelo" syntax has instated
an abstract and impersonal
"doer". That is to say, I end up
with

"it shouts to High Heaven"
"it calls to High Heaven"
etc.

as Vergil's meaning.

Put most simply,
there has to be a way that Latin
can say

"It is raining"

[Evertjan.]

"jsqu...@gmail.com" <jsqu...@gmail.com> wrote on 22 jul 2014 in
alt.language.latin:

> While you fellows are way ahead of me
> in both vulgar and classical Latin, it
> occurs to me that, coming to this
> "it clamor caelo" business sort of
> from the outside, I maybe see it in
> a different framework. To be specific,
> the mind seems to have motives to
> move verbs towards nouns and vice
> versa

Nonsense,
you seem to imagine a general grammar that simply is not there.

> and Vergil with his "it
> clamor caelo" syntax has instated
> an abstract and impersonal
> "doer". That is to say, I end up
> with
>
> "it shouts to High Heaven"
> "it calls to High Heaven"
> etc.

Sounds very christian to me.
Why would you think that coelum means
heaven, and christiannicly written with a capital?

And why should the coelum be high?

Vergilius is NOT speaking NOR thinking in vulgate vulgar.

Again, again,
translation sucks,
and it should.

> as Vergil's meaning.

You cannot say that Publius Vergilius Maro
ment that in English, as he did not say that in English,
and English did not even exist as an entity in his time.

> Put most simply,
> there has to be a way that Latin
> can say "It is raining"

Indeed, in one word: "Pluit".

They did not have the English language concept,
that it 'was raining' from at least 30 seconds ago
till 30 seconds in the future.

And even while there actually is someway this way that
people can say in Latin: "It is raining",
that does not mean that "there has to be a way".

That is monoglottic bull-shit!

There are many things that "simply" can
be expressed in one language,
and "simply" not in an other.

In the latter case the translator has to explain the original word or
sentence to the reader, and even if the translator understands every nuance,
which I put to be very doubtful, this will be very tedious and of
questionable result, because the "foreign" reader [and often even the
translator] cannot fathom the environment in which the original is
said/written.

[Ed Cryer]

You're digging yourself into something none of us can fathom, and you're
displaying a great deal of linguistic ignorance in the process, man.
Evertjan will give you a pounding for that; he's very down on "monoglots".

English - It's raining
Latin - Pluit
Spanish - Llueve
German - Es regnet
French - Il pleut

Some languages use the "it"; some don't. And it's not even a rule
applied across all the Romance languages either.

Ed

[Evertjan.]

Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote on 22 jul 2014 in
alt.language.latin:

> Evertjan will give you a pounding for that; he's very down on "monoglots".

I am not down at all at the moment.

Some of my dear friends are monoglots.

Monoglots making up general language theory,
right from their pityfull monoglottic existence,
however, well ....

=============

Voici une chanson fran�aise tir�e de l'op�rette Laure et P�trarque �crite en
1780 par Fabre d'�glantine. La musique est du messin Louis-Victor Simon.

<http://hannivoort.org/utu?5KIjaV251o0>

[In 1794, Fabre d'�glantine hummed this music on his way to the guillotine.]

[jsqu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:27:43 PM UTC-7, jsqu...@gmail.com wrote:

exeunt left

[Ed Cryer]

Evertjan. wrote:
> Ed Cryer <e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote on 22 jul 2014 in
> alt.language.latin:
>
>> Evertjan will give you a pounding for that; he's very down on "monoglots".
>
> I am not down at all at the moment.
>
> Some of my dear friends are monoglots.
>
> Monoglots making up general language theory,
> right from their pityfull monoglottic existence,
> however, well ....
>
> =============
>
> Voici une chanson fran�aise tir�e de l'op�rette Laure et P�trarque �crite en
> 1780 par Fabre d'�glantine. La musique est du messin Louis-Victor Simon.
>
> <http://hannivoort.org/utu?5KIjaV251o0>
>
> [In 1794, Fabre d'�glantine hummed this music on his way to the guillotine.]
>

That is utterly charming; and very French.
Something about it reminded me of Marie Antoinette playing the milkmaid.
Citoyen Monsieur Cryer, êtes-vous un aristo?
No, citoyen, je suis anglais.
Eh bien, mon petit rosbif, vous irez à Madame La Guillotine. Elle sait
bien mettre fin aux aristos.

Ed