Latin in The Passion of The Christ
David Eugenius
We don't see Latin too often in the cinema. I was glad to see some in Mel
Gibson's film on the Lord's Passion. It was pleasing to hear Jesus speak in
his native tongue (or something near it), but even more so, I must admit, to
hear him speak Latin in the scene with Pilate. How are we to judge the work
of Padre Fulco, who translated the script into Latin and Aramaic and coached
the actors?
Vale.
Edward Casey
"David Eugenius" <resur...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nX61c.21562$6e7....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
I don't think we can fault Father Fulco at all, other than quibbling about
his choice of ecclesiastical over restored pronunciation. This was
probably his only feasible option though, considering the many Italian
actors on location in Calabria. Of course many of the actors muffed their
lines, but Mel (a la Ed Wood) probably shouted "that's a wrap" after the
first try.
Eduardus
bob
> From: "Edward Casey" <ej...@cpinternet.com>
> Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
> Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:42:41 -0600
> Subject: Re: Latin in The Passion of The Christ
I'm curious about the AAramaic: is it the Aramaic of first century Palestine
or is it the later Syriac version of the Peshitta, the Aramaic gospels?
Bob
Larry G
I'm curious to know if Greek would have been used by the Roman officials. I
thought that Greek was used in the eastern part of the empire. Was Latin
used in the Middle East part of the empire as well?
Larry
zbihniew kagnimir ben-pretslava
> "David Eugenius" <resur...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message ...
>
>
> I'm curious to know if Greek would have been used by the Roman officials. I
> thought that Greek was used in the eastern part of the empire. Was Latin
> used in the Middle East part of the empire as well?
Actually, AFAIK they spoke Greek and there should be also merchants
speaking Greek in the movie, but nothing's perfect.
--
zbihniew
ICQ# 340170009
email: zbihniew[at]yahoo[dot]no
news://zbihniewnews.zapto.org
David Eugenius
"bob" <por...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BC6A8709.60E%por...@ix.netcom.com...
|
| >
| > "David Eugenius" <resur...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
| > news:nX61c.21562$6e7....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
| >> Omnibus pacem Rodericanus:
| >>
| >> We don't see Latin too often in the cinema. I was glad to see some in
| > Mel
| >> Gibson's film on the Lord's Passion. It was pleasing to hear Jesus
speak
| > in
| >> his native tongue (or something near it), but even more so, I must
| > admit, to
| >> hear him speak Latin in the scene with Pilate.
|
| I'm curious about the AAramaic: is it the Aramaic of first century
Palestine
| or is it the later Syriac version of the Peshitta, the Aramaic gospels?
|
| Bob
|
Rodericanus Roberto sal.
I've read two articles on the Aramaic usage, and both say this is a
"calculated guess" at how the language would have sounded back in the first
century. Here are the articles:
"What's up with Aramaic?": http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8038021.htm
"Assyrians hear native tongue in 'Passion'":
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8044054.htm
Fr. Fulco must have had more difficulty with Aramaic, I would suppose.
Dom. tecum.
David Eugenius
"Larry G" <thela...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c24lbd$1npj80$1...@ID-37509.news.uni-berlin.de...
My understanding, Laurentio, was that if Jesus did have contact with the
pagan world, it was in Sepphorris, and there they spoke Greek as far as we
know. I was not so much surprised, however, to see Jesus speak Latin as to
see Pilate condescend to speak in the language of a subject people. The
employment of translators is a possibility, but they're not mentioned in the
Scriptures. Still, that might have been omitted as an insignificant detail.
I thought Pilate and Jesus would compromise on Greek.
Although Greek was the lingua franca of the Eastern Empire, it is possible
that Jesus might have been exposed to and had some fluency in Latin even
there. Christ's reply to the Roman centurion who says "non sum dignus" might
have been in the same language, as it's possible His dialogue with Pilate
might have been in a kind of street Latin, yet not vernacularized.
Pax tecum.
David Eugenius
"Edward Casey" <ej...@cpinternet.com> wrote in message
news:104aagt...@corp.supernews.com...
Eudardus, is that how they call what we have today: "restored
pronunciation"? I'm sure any attempt is an approximation and there is no
"correct" pronunciation, but how much of a consensus is there among scholars
today on the matter of pronunciation? And also, to what criteria do they
appeal (e.g., pronunciations in Romance languages)?
Edward Casey
I understand that there is virtually a universal consensus that the
restored pronunciation more or less approximates to the pronunciation the
clubbable in the city of Rome in late republican times, a least compared
to the modern ecclesiastical pronunciation. The last prominent latinist
who thought otherwise was the great Antonio Bacci (more a paragon of style
than a historical glottologist). To his credit, he came around to the
current view on the matter after being presented with the evidence. See W.
Sidney Allen's "Vox Latina."
Eduardus
David Eugenius
Rodericanus Eduardo pacem:
Thank you for replying. I've been wanting to purchase Allen's book for some
time.
Vale.
Edward Casey
> | clubbable in the city of Rome in late republican times, a least
compared
> | to the modern ecclesiastical pronunciation. The last prominent
latinist
> | who thought otherwise was the great Antonio Bacci (more a paragon of
style
> | than a historical glottologist). To his credit, he came around to the
> | current view on the matter after being presented with the evidence.
See W.
> | Sidney Allen's "Vox Latina."
> |
> | Eduardus
> |
>
> Rodericanus Eduardo pacem:
>
> Thank you for replying. I've been wanting to purchase Allen's book for
some
> time.
>
> Vale.
Eduardus Roderic(an)o pacem exoptat:
You're welcome. I would also recommend the tapes of Stephen Daitz and
Robert Sonkowsky.
cura ut valeas
David Eugenius
Bob and Aramaic Buffs:
I just noticed on the latest Explorator (6.44, 29 Feb.) some links to other
articles on the Aramaic and "Passion" connection:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3488046.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/24/nyregion/24NYC.html
http://tinyurl.com/ypgku (Jerusalem Post)
http://tinyurl.com/2u6q2 (Voice of America)
Dvd. Eu. Rodericanus
David Eugenius
"David Eugenius" <resur...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nX61c.21562$6e7....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
Other Latin titles, besides "The Passion of the Christ" of Mel Gibson:
http://www.imdb.com/List?language=Latin&&tv=on&&heading=10;Latin&&nav=/Secti
ons/Languages/Latin/include-titles
Dvd. Eu. Rodericanus
David Eugenius
"David Eugenius" <resur...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nX61c.21562$6e7....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
By the looks of it, there's more to this subject than meets the eye. Here's
what Fr. Fulco commented in an article published 4 March in the Chicago
_Tribune_:
"I tracked down some obscene graffiti from Roman army camps," Fulco said.
"Somebody who knows Latin really well, their ears will fall off. We didn't
subtitle those words."
Fulco even confessed to some linguistic mischief.
Fulco left Greek out of "The Passion," substituting Latin in occasional
cases where Greek might have been used. He also made mostly imperceptible
distinctions between the elegant Latin of Pilate and the crude Latin of
soldiers, thanks to an X-rated source he found on his shelf.
"Here and there I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one
scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The
subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my
laundry.'"
Other linguistic tricks of Fulco's serve a function in the script.
For example, he incorporated deliberate dialogue errors in the scenes where
the Roman soldiers, speaking Aramaic, are shouting to Jewish crowds, who
respond in Latin. To illustrate the groups' inability to communicate with
each other, each side speaks with incorrect pronunciations and word endings.
Later, "there's an exchange where Pilate addresses Jesus in Aramaic, and
Jesus answers in Latin. It's kind of a nifty little symbolic thing: Jesus is
going to beat him at his own game," Fulco said. "One line [in that exchange]
I kind of enjoyed is when Jesus says, `My power is given from above,
otherwise my followers would not have allowed this.' That's [spoken in] the
pluperfect subjunctive."
Bierma. "The Jesuit scholar who translated `The Passion.'" Chicago
_Tribune_. 4 Mar. 2004.
<http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.sto
ry?coll=mmx-movies_heds>.
Dvd. Eu. Rodericanus
David Eugenius
Old interview Ed Siebert had with Fr. Fulco. It's in PDF format and hard to
read. Fr. Fulco says, "[Gibson and I] discussed whether [the script] should
be Latin or Greek," and they chose Latin "for artistic reasons."
The link:
http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/Conversations/No25_200
4/fulco_25.pdf
OR
Dvd. Eu. Rodericanus