ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

[Andyssfund]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-21 13:44:49 EDT, you write:

<< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
of Filipino history? >>
============================
Come on DLR, you know better than that ... what probably our friend would
like to say is ... noboby can relate better than a filipino because he lived
for it and died for it.....emotionaly and spiritually he/she understands the
bottom of it. Let us face the real world some people think they know what
they know ... but in reality they look at things and interpret it in a
different way... why? ... I dont Know...maybe that's the way it is,

Andy Z.

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['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cabalen
Well, I thought I had heard everything, but I was wrong. Years ago,
when I was still teaching, the History Department at Univ. of SC had a
symposium on slavery, using the just published and very controversial
book Time on the Cross as the primary topic. Obviously, since this was
my area of expertise, I attended, along with just about every major
historian in the US who had covered the topic. Among these was a very
well educated, but quite radical Black scholar from Jamaica. After the
discussion had continued hot and heavy and the accusations of racism,
etc. had grown more intense, he shocked everyone by declaring that,
actually, NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE could write history about blacks except
blacks, because no one but blacks could possibly understand their
history, struggles, etc. This comment was so completely preposterous and
idiotic that I, shy and reserved fellow that I am, felt compelled to
respond, to wit: Taking your conclusion to the extreme, it then would be
fair to say that only French people could write French history, Albanians
Albanian history and so forth. Thus was born the infamous "Watermelon
Thesis of Sub-Saharan African Migration" ... but that is another story.
At the time I made the assertion above, it never occurred to me that
someone would be so jingoistic and naïve to claim that only members of a
particular nationality could write that nation's history. I was wrong!
Now we have some other (unsigned) person claiming that only Filipinos
can write Filipino history. In view of the fact that, as a professional
historian, I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as

the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
of Filipino history?

Cheers.
DLR

-----Original Message-----

[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

I don't know about that. I think you miss the point of view from the
author and how it relates to the people of the subject matter. Great
studies of peoples have been done for the benefit of the world.
MacM...@galesburg.net
Conservative Alumni Carl Sandburg College

----------
> From: CYLLIW <CYL...@aol.com>
> To: KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern Philippine Society
> Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 9:50 AM

> < K a p a m p a n g a n >

> Comment:
> It is really pathetic when foreigners make an historcal account of a
country.
> This has been true from the time history has been written about the >
Philippines, like the accounts of Pigafetta on the pre-Hispanic natives
and > society. The way these foreigners report of our native land is
through their > myopic view and their condescending Western attitude. It
must be noted that > what ills the Philippine economy and society is not
the result of the > "exploitative" sugar industry, but a system
established, enforced and > maintained by Western opportunist (Spanish
conquistadores and American > military). And it is a system which until
now, due to its vested interests, > is being encouraged to exist by the
same western imperialists.

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy
Good to hear from you. By the same token, the more distant from the
subject, the more objective one becomes. That is why historians normally
do not even write history on matters that occurred less than 25 years
previous ... or if they do, they do so with the full knowledge that
additional facts, documents, etc. may come to light that will cast doubt
on their theses ... or even disprove them altogether. Nonetheless, my
comment was not based on this intellectual argument, but on the
presumption that ONLY Filipinos can understand RP history. Just for
starters, WHICH Filipinos? Do Kapampangans understand Filipino history
better than Waray? I also appreciate that one who has lived history
understands it better, but how many Filipinos are alive who remember the
Spanish conquest? Or even the American one for that matter. To me, this
idea makes about as much sense as modern Americans paying "reparations"
to the descendents of black slaves when neither the vast majority of
whites nor blacks are descended from slave owners or slaves. Cheers.
DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 3:11 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-21 13:44:49 EDT, you write:

<< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
of Filipino history? >>

============================
Come on DLR, you know better than that ... what probably our friend
would
like to say is ... noboby can relate better than a filipino because he
lived
for it and died for it.....emotionaly and spiritually he/she understands
the
bottom of it. Let us face the real world some people think they know
what
they know ... but in reality they look at things and interpret it in a
different way... why? ... I dont Know...maybe that's the way it is,

Andy Z.

------------------------------------------------------------------

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 4/21/98 2:49:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
H...@a6.centaf.af.mil writes:

<< onetheless, my
comment was not based on this intellectual argument, but on the
presumption that ONLY Filipinos can understand RP history. Just for
starters, WHICH Filipinos? Do Kapampangans understand Filipino history
better than Waray? >>

Yes... I will give you an example ... to a filipino family who are in
poverty... a child will work hard to help the Family to put food on the
table... in the eyes of westerners it is a child exploitation, child labor or
child abuse...that is a big difference my friend .in the heart of filipino
parents that is something that we are proud of. this is one of many things in
our culture that western civilization can't comprehend and instead they want
that other cultures should use the western standard as a barometer.....
==========================================
actually you answered you own question... I just resent what you have said

"<< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
of Filipino history? >>

-------
there is no reason for you to be disgusted so as to be defensive regarding
foreign historians...

Thanks,

[Tears20]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

ANyone can write or do something of another culture but it just doesn't seem
genuine unless it is a part of their culture....I wanted to take Arnis but
I'll be da**ed if I take lessons from an "American"....I'd rather learn from a
Filipino....if an American knows it better than the Filipino, so what....I
don't feel its right unless its coming from someone that has more of a
connection to it....but that doesn't mean I don't believe in them or not trust
them....there's just a stronger bond to that culture....you know....

Cher

[Ariel Malig]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

.........personally, i think both - (foreign and native historians) can
contribute to a full understanding of anyone's country and history.

like most filipinos in general, and before joining the k-list, my
knowledge of filipino history was your basic "outline" of philippine
history. high school history. zip, nada - no understanding at all. i
think we had one book for "world history", "one book for filipino history
(zaide? - ok you can stop snickering now) , the 2 books of rizal, maybe
a book about rizal. ......and that is it !!!

we never talked about all the "details" about the revolution, about
individual players, except for rizal. sure a few things here there about
bonifacio or aguinaldo, but nothing so detailed and so well-researched as
from the contribution of people here in the k-list. sometimes i feel
like i am getting a "master" or even a "phd" caliber history education
here in k-list. it is so focused, so detailed, so well-reference, and
cross-referenced -- people contributing from all sides.

and here is how "I" take it all in and understand, and absorb it as a
kapampangan and a filipino.

i get all the facts, events, dates, characters, places, players
etc.....from everyone - filipino and foreign historians, then i get a
vivid picture of that event, or that particular moment in k history or in
the philippine revolution. at this stage, i am already in awe and
thankful of anybody, both foreign and native historian for giving a clear
picture of a sequence of events, or how events came about. this alone
is a tremendous part of starting to understand our history.

now comes in the "theories" "interpretations" and "analysis" of both
filipino and foreign historians.
here, i can start injecting "MY" own theories and interpretations and
feelings as a k and as a filipino.
i don't necessarily have to "accept" any theories or interpretations of
anybody.

so, then it becomes a combination of getting "facts" and
"interpretations" and sorting them out for my own conclusions or
understanding.

basically, i read a book. i close it. i say, "hmmm,
interesting.........," then i say, "about chapter 12,......i don't
agree..." or i would say, "you've captured the essence in chapter 35"

i think i can write a darn good book about the history of iceland. i'll
live there for some years. research, live life the iceland way, talk to
people, etc........and definitely come up with my own perspective of their
history.

in our quest for understanding anything in this world, sometimes it is
helpful to get insights from someone from the outside looking in, than
from someone inside looking in.

that's my take

ariel

> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>In a message dated 4/21/98 2:49:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>H...@a6.centaf.af.mil writes:
>
><< onetheless, my
> comment was not based on this intellectual argument, but on the
> presumption that ONLY Filipinos can understand RP history. Just for
> starters, WHICH Filipinos? Do Kapampangans understand Filipino history
> better than Waray? >>
>Yes... I will give you an example ... to a filipino family who are in
>poverty... a child will work hard to help the Family to put food on the
>table... in the eyes of westerners it is a child exploitation, child labor or
>child abuse...that is a big difference my friend .in the heart of filipino
>parents that is something that we are proud of. this is one of many things in
>our culture that western civilization can't comprehend and instead they want
>that other cultures should use the western standard as a barometer.....
>==========================================
>actually you answered you own question... I just resent what you have said
>"<< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
> the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
> of Filipino history? >>
>-------
>there is no reason for you to be disgusted so as to be defensive regarding
>foreign historians...
>
>Thanks,
>Andy Z.
>

------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul M Hart]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

I agree with you Ariel.
Paul

Ariel Malig wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>
> .........personally, i think both - (foreign and native historians) can
> contribute to a full understanding of anyone's country and history.

>

> so, then it becomes a combination of getting "facts" and
> "interpretations" and sorting them out for my own conclusions or
> understanding.
>

>

> in our quest for understanding anything in this world, sometimes it is
> helpful to get insights from someone from the outside looking in, than
> from someone inside looking in.
>
> that's my take
>
> ariel

------------------------------------------------------------------

[Peter Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

>better than Waray? >>

>Yes... I will give you an example ... to a filipino family who are in
>poverty... a child will work hard to help the Family to put food on the
>table... in the eyes of westerners it is a child exploitation, child labor
or
>child abuse...that is a big difference my friend .in the heart of
filipino
>parents that is something that we are proud of

But remember also that it is the responsibility of the 'parents' to provide
for their children, If they fail to provide, I will call it
irresponsibility. A'child' shouldn't have to work until they are of age.
For myself, I will be very very embarrassed if my 'child' has to work to
bring food to the family table. I will feel that I have not been a
responsible parent by doing this. These children were here because of us
and it is our duty and responsiblity to care and provide for them.
I have a teenage daughter that works part time now, and let me tell you why
it is different, whatever she gets goes to her or to her college funds, she
doesn't have to put a share in the family table. IOW, she does not work
because of the family needs. And she's of age 17 yrs old.
I am sure your argument will be, it is different in every country or
culture and I will disagree with you everytime. These kids, children never
asked to be here, the parents decided for them and should be responsible
for their actions.
Peter Nepomuceno

JAZP...@aol.com on 04/21/98 08:42:45 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Body:

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 4/21/98 2:49:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
H...@a6.centaf.af.mil writes:
<< onetheless, my
comment was not based on this intellectual argument, but on the
presumption that ONLY Filipinos can understand RP history. Just for
starters, WHICH Filipinos? Do Kapampangans understand Filipino history

. this is one of many things in
our culture that western civilization can't comprehend and instead they
want
that other cultures should use the western standard as a barometer.....
==========================================
actually you answered you own question... I just resent what you have said
"<< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
of Filipino history? >>
-------
there is no reason for you to be disgusted so as to be defensive regarding
foreign historians...
Thanks,
Andy Z.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Peter Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Sorry Cher, I disagree,
Sometimes the student will always be better than the teacher! Re: the
martial arts, look at the champions, they are not japanese or chinese or
southeast asian, and most come from the eastern european block. Which
proves my first statement! Just because judo or jujitsu is oriental in
origin and culture does not mean thta one who practices such martial arts,
whether he is caucasian, south asian or latino will not develop a judo or
jujitsu culture.
Peter nepomuceno

Tea...@aol.com on 04/21/98 11:02:49 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)
Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern
Body:

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

ANyone can write or do something of another culture but it just doesn't
seem
genuine unless it is a part of their culture....I wanted to take Arnis but
I'll be da**ed if I take lessons from an "American"....I'd rather learn
from a
Filipino....if an American knows it better than the Filipino, so what....I
don't feel its right unless its coming from someone that has more of a
connection to it....but that doesn't mean I don't believe in them or not
trust
them....there's just a stronger bond to that culture....you know....
Cher

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy
I think you misunderstood me. I did not mean that there were some
Filipino customs that westerners might not understand or which they might
even find distasteful. I am certain that this is true in all cultural
interchanges. On the other hand, it does not take any great intellectual
leap to understand that the Filipino culture (like many others) is
founded on the basis of the extended family in which even children are
expected to support the family. I think a more accurate "western" view
of this would be to deplore the existence of an economic system that
keeps families in poverty such that it is necessary for children to work
instead of attending school, which we all agree would be better for them.
The current western view of child labor also is directed at
multinational firms such as Nike that have been shown to exploit young
workers.
However, I must tell you that this opposition to child labor is a recent
thing in the west. One only has to read Charles Dickens or look at the
history of labor in the west to realize that it was not until the very
end of the 19th century that child labor was outlawed in western nations.
The point I was trying to make is that I, as a professional, find it
very distasteful to be told by someone that I cannot understand something
because I am not "there" so to speak. How would we know anything about
ancient history, for example, if we accepted this ludicrous suggestion.
Met any Sumerians lately? Or how about Etruscans? And I still repeat
my initial assertion that, if we say that only Filipinos are in a
position to understand Filipino history, of which Filipinos are we
discussing? There are several major ethnic groups in the RP ... does
this mean that only a Kapampangan can understand the history of Pampanga?
I know that some of these examples are a little extreme, but, as far as
I am concerned, if one devotes his energies to understanding something,
he or she will understand it.
Cheers
DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 7:53 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 4/21/98 2:49:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
H...@a6.centaf.af.mil writes:

<< onetheless, my
comment was not based on this intellectual argument, but on the
presumption that ONLY Filipinos can understand RP history. Just for
starters, WHICH Filipinos? Do Kapampangans understand Filipino history

better than Waray? >>
Yes... I will give you an example ... to a filipino family who are in
poverty... a child will work hard to help the Family to put food on the
table... in the eyes of westerners it is a child exploitation, child
labor or
child abuse...that is a big difference my friend .in the heart of
filipino

parents that is something that we are proud of. this is one of many

things in
our culture that western civilization can't comprehend and instead they
want
that other cultures should use the western standard as a barometer.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Paul
Thanks for your support of my position that it is illogical to assume
that only those from one nation or ethnic group are capable of writing
their history. Re. The sugar "system," I don't know that it necessarily
was established by westerners ... sugar is grown world wide in a variety
of methods, including beets, believe it or not. What the westerners
(Spanish, not Americans) did was to establish the plantation system, and
not just in the RP, but South America, Central America and the Caribbean
as well. I suspect that the climate and topography probably had more to
do with the establishment of these plantations than any inate desire on
the part of the conquistadores to enslave the people. They just needed
cheap labor. In the US, the same need for cheap labor led to the
importation of slaves from Africa. So the establishment of plantation
systems is a world-wide, not Filipino, issue and one that was driven more
by economic factors than anything else. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 4:59 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Cylliw

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think that if an
historian is willing to put the time and effort into research and trying
to
understand a country's history, he would be able to write about it. I
think
the important thing is that he be able to put aside any prejudices or
preconceptions he has that are disproved by the research. This can be
just
as difficult for a native of the country as for a foreigner.

I haven't read John Larkin, but I doubt that he suggests every problem in
the
Philippines stems from the sugar industry. It just happens to be what
his
research focused on. Doesn't the 'system established, enforced and
maintained by Western opportunists' include the sugar industry? And
isn't
there some value in studying elements of a system in order to understand
the
whole?

Thanks for reading, and take care

Paul McCue

CYL...@aol.com on 04/18/98 07:50:44 AM
Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM@Internet
cc:
Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern Philippine
Society

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Comment:

It is really pathetic when foreigners make an historcal account of a
country.
This has been true from the time history has been written about the
Philippines, like the accounts of Pigafetta on the pre-Hispanic natives
and
society. The way these foreigners report of our native land is through
their
myopic view and their condescending Western attitude. It must be noted
that
what ills the Philippine economy and society is not the result of the
"exploitative" sugar industry, but a system established, enforced and
maintained by Western opportunist (Spanish conquistadores and American
military). And it is a system which until now, due to its vested
interests,
is being encouraged to exist by the same western imperialists.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Armando Regala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

I think this debate on whether a foreigner can do a good job of
writing about the history of another culture is muc like the question
on who will win a martial arts contest - the good little man or the
good big man. I think both sides are presenting viable arguments - a
foreigner who is unbiased and does adequate research can write a
credible history for another culture. He, however, would have a
disadvantage of not having an intimate knowledge of the
customs and traditions of that culture. A person who belongs to the
same culture can also write a credible history for his own culture if
he has the right training and tools and does adequate research. He
also would have the disadvantage of probably having 'in'house'
biases. However, when everything is taken altogether, I think a
really good person of the same culture can do a better job than a
really good foreigner, same as a really big man will always beat a
really good little man in a physical contest.

Mandy

---------------------------------------------------------------------

ANyone can write or do something of another culture but it just
doesn't seem genuine unless it is a part of their culture....I wanted
to take Arnis but I'll be da**ed if I take lessons from an
"American"....I'd rather learn from a Filipino....if an American
knows it better than the Filipino, so what....I don't feel its right
unless its coming from someone that has more of a connection to
it....but that doesn't mean I don't believe in them or not trust
them....there's just a stronger bond to that culture....you know....

Cher

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Ariel
You have stated my point probably better that I did. Certainly in a
more interesting manner. I especially agree that the first thing to do
is gather the facts first (from everywhere and everyone) and then make
assumptions and connections on them. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 11:41 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

.........personally, i think both - (foreign and native historians) can
contribute to a full understanding of anyone's country and history.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Cher
Nice to hear from you. I appreciate what you are saying, but at least
you acknowledge that someone outside of the culture can learn and
understand it. The person to whom I was replying denied that this was
possible. Frankly, as an American, I would prefer learning Filipino
history (or any other) from a Filipino also, as I agree that he or she
would be more "connected." On the other hand, I would rather learn from
someone who was an expert rather than someone less knowledgeable,
regardless of the nationalities or ethnicity involved. As an example, I
had the honor to study with one of the leading Africanists at the time I
was in graduate school, but he was a white fellow, born and educated in
Kenya. Would he have been a better teacher of African history if he had
been black? Not necessarily. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 10:11 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

ANyone can write or do something of another culture but it just doesn't

seem
genuine unless it is a part of their culture....I wanted to take Arnis
but
I'll be da**ed if I take lessons from an "American"....I'd rather learn
from a
Filipino....if an American knows it better than the Filipino, so
what....I
don't feel its right unless its coming from someone that has more of a
connection to it....but that doesn't mean I don't believe in them or not
trust
them....there's just a stronger bond to that culture....you know....

Cher

------------------------------------------------------------------
< E balang kikinang gintu. >

The Kapampangan Homepage <http://www.balen.net>

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Peter
Excellent analogy, if I do say so myself. Now that I think about it, I
would think that a native Filipino would be proud to know that someone
from another culture was interested enough in his/her culture to study
and learn it and, assuming the someone learned it well enough, even teach
it. I remember when I was in the RP, often Filipinos would express
surprise that I knew so much about the culture, etc. and my response
always was, "Why is it so surprising that I would be interested in the
lives, customs, etc. of my neighbors and friends?" From my point of view
the time that I spent in Asia and the time I have spent with my K-list
friends has been a constant learning experience, and I would hate to
"waste" it by not using it. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 8:26 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Sorry Cher, I disagree,

Sometimes the student will always be better than the teacher! Re: the
martial arts, look at the champions, they are not japanese or chinese or
southeast asian, and most come from the eastern european block. Which
proves my first statement! Just because judo or jujitsu is oriental in
origin and culture does not mean thta one who practices such martial
arts,
whether he is caucasian, south asian or latino will not develop a judo or
jujitsu culture.
Peter nepomuceno

Tea...@aol.com on 04/21/98 11:02:49 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Body:

[Ariel Malig]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

> However, I must tell you that this opposition to child labor is a recent

>thing in the west. One only has to read Charles Dickens or look at the
>history of labor in the west to realize that it was not until the very
>end of the 19th century that child labor was outlawed in western nations.

> Cheers
> DLR
>

..............i remember reading that the factories in Massachussets, way
back then, had machineries that were actually made specifically for
children. they were low, small handles for small children's hands.

ariel

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Andy, you wrote:
>
>>better than Waray? >>
>>Yes... I will give you an example ... to a filipino family who are in
>>poverty... a child will work hard to help the Family to put food on the
>>table... in the eyes of westerners it is a child exploitation, child labor
>or
>>child abuse...that is a big difference my friend .in the heart of
>filipino
>>parents that is something that we are proud of

This is practically an old tradition of the Filipino belief! In reality, it
was not an obligation for the children to go to work to provide for the
family! I do not believe, these poor parents are proud of it! True, because
of poverty, they are send to help provide food on the table! But the
consequences is so damaging to the child future! In most cases, this
happened to the most unfortunate or very poor! I witnessed this so many
times in my community! The child skip school because the mother ( who,
mostly stays home) will send the son to go fishing to a nearest fishpond,
(which owners used to let people to fish what is left, after they emptied
the water and fish, from the fishpond) When I see this, it totally break my
heart, because I knew for a fact, that this child will eventually drop -out
of school! We have about 80% school drop-out which is so obvious! Where do
we draw the line of parenting in cases like this? Yes, modern culture, says,
children must be at school, but in some cases it do not work!
There are those poor families who wanted to educate their children, if there
are ways to provide them financially! But to the desperate ones, education
is not a priority, to look for food, is the general agenda, day after day!!!
Iya laganas ing graciang babie na ning Guinu queti qng yatu!!!! Atiu namu
quecatamu ing lawen nung nanu ing asaup tamu carening alang talagang acarapat!

Yanamu,
Nancy

>But remember also that it is the responsibility of the 'parents' to provide
>for their children, If they fail to provide, I will call it
>irresponsibility. A'child' shouldn't have to work until they are of age.
>For myself, I will be very very embarrassed if my 'child' has to work to
>bring food to the family table. I will feel that I have not been a
>responsible parent by doing this. These children were here because of us
>and it is our duty and responsiblity to care and provide for them.
>I have a teenage daughter that works part time now, and let me tell you why
>it is different, whatever she gets goes to her or to her college funds, she
>doesn't have to put a share in the family table. IOW, she does not work
>because of the family needs. And she's of age 17 yrs old.
>I am sure your argument will be, it is different in every country or
>culture and I will disagree with you everytime. These kids, children never
>asked to be here, the parents decided for them and should be responsible
>for their actions.
>Peter Nepomuceno
>
>
>

>In a message dated 4/21/98 2:49:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-22 09:09:39 EDT, you write:

<< ut remember also that it is the responsibility of the 'parents' to provide
for their children, If they fail to provide, I will call it
irresponsibility. A'child' shouldn't have to work until they are of age.
For myself, I will be very very embarrassed if my 'child' has to work to
bring food to the family table. I will feel that I have not been a
responsible parent by doing this. These children were here because of us
and it is our duty and responsiblity to care and provide for them.
I have a teenage daughter that works part time now, and let me tell you why
it is different, whatever she gets goes to her or to her college funds, she
doesn't have to put a share in the family table. IOW, she does not work
because of the family needs. And she's of age 17 yrs old.
I am sure your argument will be, it is different in every country or
culture and I will disagree with you everytime. These kids, children never
asked to be here, the parents decided for them and should be responsible
for their actions.
Peter Nepomuceno >>

=======================

Great idea Pete... but you are talking about a great scenario an ideal
situation here ...I certainly agree with you, we are not talking about you or
me, or juan dela cruz in the States.. we are talking about real people ...
survival is all in their hearts and mind... it is happening at this moment in
third world countries... because of ecomomic status of a family ...remember
smokey mountain, that was shown over and over on pbs and network magazine
shows ... find for your self how it was presented and interpreted per
show....?) you ought to see these... this is a classic example how bias some
people are... every shoe viewed it differently and defined it totally
different if I will defined it....

BTW... no one in the K-list is saying that a foreigner cannot understand or
write someone's history.. I think the argument is who can relate better and
can give a
the ingredients of it all....Just like Mandy said....."He (foreigner),

however, would have a
disadvantage of not having an intimate knowledge of the
customs and traditions of that culture. A person who belongs to the
same culture can also write a credible history for his own culture if
he has the right training and tools and does adequate research. He
also would have the disadvantage of probably having 'in'house'
biases. However, when everything is taken altogether, I think a
really good person of the same culture can do a better job than a
really good foreigner,"

Thanks
Andy Z.

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Ariel, you wrote:
>.........personally, i think both - (foreign and native historians) can
>contribute to a full understanding of anyone's country and history.
>

>like most filipinos in general, and before joining the k-list, my
>knowledge of filipino history was your basic "outline" of philippine
>history. high school history. zip, nada - no understanding at all. i
>think we had one book for "world history", "one book for filipino history
>(zaide? - ok you can stop snickering now) , the 2 books of rizal, maybe
>a book about rizal. ......and that is it !!!

This is exactly true, we know of the history of the Phil. but none at all
about Pampanga! The John Larkin book gave me an insight of what was the
history behind Pampamga in general.
I too, is very thankful to all the K-List, who dovotedly write details of
the historical events. I do believe, some of their contributions came from
foreign historians and Filipino alike!
We must all be thankful to those foreigners and Filipinos who wrote
Philippine History! Some historians may not have an exact conclusion ( to
our taste) about history, but believe me , I am glad they are here to
preserve history for the future generation!
Just look at the Code of Kalantiaw, that was written by Filipino Historian
(Jose E. Marco), it was a fraud! I mean, this happen sometimes, however we
do learn from both foreign and native historians!

Iyamu pu ita ing canacu

Nancy

>we never talked about all the "details" about the revolution, about
>individual players, except for rizal. sure a few things here there about
>bonifacio or aguinaldo, but nothing so detailed and so well-researched as
>from the contribution of people here in the k-list. sometimes i feel
>like i am getting a "master" or even a "phd" caliber history education
>here in k-list. it is so focused, so detailed, so well-reference, and
>cross-referenced -- people contributing from all sides.
>
>and here is how "I" take it all in and understand, and absorb it as a
>kapampangan and a filipino.
>
>i get all the facts, events, dates, characters, places, players
>etc.....from everyone - filipino and foreign historians, then i get a
>vivid picture of that event, or that particular moment in k history or in
>the philippine revolution. at this stage, i am already in awe and
>thankful of anybody, both foreign and native historian for giving a clear
>picture of a sequence of events, or how events came about. this alone
>is a tremendous part of starting to understand our history.
>

>>hi>

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Nancy
As a "foreigner" very much interested in learning and disseminating
Philippine History, I appreciate your vote of confidence. I think most
historians (hopefully all) are objective so that they base their
conclusion on fact, not biased opinion. As you say, sometimes the facts
or interpretations of them may not be pleasant to some faction, but the
offended party always has the chance and obligation to examine the
evidence and present its own case. History is fluid. As in the case of
the Will you mentioned, we constantly find new evidence or prove old
evidence incorrect. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 2:06 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR, you wrote,
> PS: I have seen several TV and news accounts of Smokey Mountain and I
>did not perceive any bias at all. The tone of all the accounts that I
>have seen was more a condemnation of the powers that be in the RP for not
>combating such poverty and alleviating those conditions than to condemn
>the parents of the kids who have to work there.

Speaking about Smokey Mountains, my husband thought, there was Value to
learn from the viewers especially over here in North America and he is
right! Though recycling is been here for quite sometime, not much was then
being recycled! But lately, most of our junks can be recycled! Thanks to
these people of Smokey Mountains! These people (and their kids) from Smokey
Mountains, gather only junks that are worth for recycling plus it give an
honest source of income!

> I think that most
>thinking people in the west (I cannot of course speak for everyone)
>realize that poverty is the cause of child labor and they urge the
>governments involved to channel more resources to alleviate the poverty.

We can't help but blame the government for such misery! But if you already
have 74 million population, with a very weak economy, alleviating poverty is
long way process to achieve.

> I personally spent a lot of time working with the indigent of Pampanga
>and I cannot recall any one of those folk who would not have wanted the
>luxury of being able to send all their kids to school instead of work.

True to those families who are rich or middle class or average earners. But
for the most destitute ones, which there are many, education would be the
last dream for their children. To work and bring money is more than an
achievement.

> Even the poor and illiterate knew that the only hope for their kids to
>have a better life was to get them educated, but most also knew that,
>without outside help, this would not happen.

Illiterates may knew about educating their kids will lead to a better life,
but when outside help do not come, dropping out from school is eminent. The
most educational achievement for the poor is up to grade six! This is a fact!!!

> During the time that I was
>there, my friends and I sent a lot of kids to school.

I feel it in my heart, you are a good man DLR! And glad you are around!

[Peter Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Huwag mag-anak kung hindi kayang magpalaki. Huwag ilipat sa iba ang
responsibilidad ng pagpapalaki ng anak ninyo o nila.
Peter

JAZP...@aol.com on 04/22/98 12:34:58 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Body:

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy
Actually, I hate to disagree with you, but the original message to which
I responded (and which I guess began this entire dialogue ... which I am
enjoying) did make the statement (I am paraphrasing) to the effect that
it made him angry that foreigners (in this case Larkin) were writing
histories of the RP and that he (the message writer) did not think
foreigners could write Filipino history, because they were not Filipino.
This was why I became upset in the first place, because I disagree
strongly. Cheers. DLR

PS: I have seen several TV and news accounts of Smokey Mountain and I
did not perceive any bias at all. The tone of all the accounts that I
have seen was more a condemnation of the powers that be in the RP for not
combating such poverty and alleviating those conditions than to condemn

the parents of the kids who have to work there. I think that most

thinking people in the west (I cannot of course speak for everyone)
realize that poverty is the cause of child labor and they urge the
governments involved to channel more resources to alleviate the poverty.

I personally spent a lot of time working with the indigent of Pampanga
and I cannot recall any one of those folk who would not have wanted the
luxury of being able to send all their kids to school instead of work.

Even the poor and illiterate knew that the only hope for their kids to
have a better life was to get them educated, but most also knew that,

without outside help, this would not happen. During the time that I was

there, my friends and I sent a lot of kids to school.

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 11:44 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

BTW... no one in the K-list is saying that a foreigner cannot understand
or
write someone's history.. I think the argument is who can relate better
and
can give athe ingredients of it all....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Peter
As I and so many others have mentioned already, I think it is more a
case of poverty necessitating the work than any true cultural
characteristic. In most cases, given the choice and capability, most
parents want their kids to go to school and have a better life. BTW, in
many rug-making countries it is young boys, not girls who do the weaving
as more fundamentalist Muslims do not think girls and women should work
outside of the home. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 1:08 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Yes it is true that in Lowell, Ma, the mills used to use very young girls
to weave and spin their mills. If you go to the Lowell Museums, you will
see pictures of thousands of young greek and Irish girls doing the nimble
work. And as in the making of Turkish or oriental rugs, the need for
making
fine knots or spins or weaves fell on the delicate and nimble fingers of
young girls, for it is the belief that only such young girls could
achieve
such fine productions of rugs or clothes etc..well, this practice is gone
in the mills of Lowell, Ma, it is a High Tech industry now. But in
Central
Asia, the use of young girls to make oriental rugs is still the practice
and norm, And I do not think it will change in the nearest future. It is
the culture over there.
Peter

H...@a6.centaf.af.mil on 04/22/98 02:46:00 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Body:

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Yep, that is true. Probably the worst case of child labor in the west
was in the coal mines in England and later in the US. Kids were
considered especially valuable because their smaller size allowed them to
work tunnels that were not high enough for men, thus saving the companies
money! Personally, I think that child labor is (like most things) cash
driven ... as countries become more affluent and mechanized, the effort
to outlaw child labor grows. For example, it is prevalent in very poor
countries such as Bangladesh and Pakistan, but not in more industrialized
societies such as Japan. Cheers. DLR
-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 10:35 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern
< K a p a m p a n g a n >

> However, I must tell you that this opposition to child labor is a
recent
>thing in the west. One only has to read Charles Dickens or look at the
>history of labor in the west to realize that it was not until the very
>end of the 19th century that child labor was outlawed in western
nations.
> Cheers
> DLR
>
..............i remember reading that the factories in Massachussets,
way
back then, had machineries that were actually made specifically for
children. they were low, small handles for small children's hands.
ariel

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

[Peter Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Yes it is true that in Lowell, Ma, the mills used to use very young girls

to weave and spin their mills. If you go to the Lowell Museums, you will
see pictures of thousands of young greek and Irish girls doing the nimble
work. And as in the making of Turkish or oriental rugs, the need for making
fine knots or spins or weaves fell on the delicate and nimble fingers of
young girls, for it is the belief that only such young girls could achieve
such fine productions of rugs or clothes etc..well, this practice is gone
in the mills of Lowell, Ma, it is a High Tech industry now. But in Central
Asia, the use of young girls to make oriental rugs is still the practice
and norm, And I do not think it will change in the nearest future. It is
the culture over there.
Peter

H...@a6.centaf.af.mil on 04/22/98 02:46:00 PM

Please respond to KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

cc: (bcc: Peter G Nepo/BOSTON/IDX1)

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Body:

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Oh Nancy, thank you so much. I just did what I saw needed to be done as
much as I could afford.
Anyway, I think you misunderstood me a little bit. I know that for the
very poor, it is absolutely essential that their kids get every centavo
to help with the expenses. What I meant was that everyone, including the
very poor, would have WANTED their kids to go to school instead of work,
if only they could afford it. So that means child labor is not a
cultural thing, as some of the responders suggested, but a necessity
driven by poverty.
My other point (which I didn't make too strongly) was that I lay the
blame for a lot of this poverty squarely at the feet of Marcos who
squandered not only Filipino wealth, but also foreign investment during
all the turmoil after Ninoy's death. Had he used his years in power
truly to improve the lives of his constituents, the lives of average
Filipinos would be much better. Back then the population was only 55
million, so it would have been easier.
BTW, when people mention Filipino or Kapampangan hospitality, I always
remind them that whenever I went out into the country side, even if it
was in the most miserable house in the poorest of barrios, the mother or
father quickly would send the kids to the closest sari-sari store for a
coke for me and my friends. If there was no money, they would borrow.
If there was no store nearby, it would be some fruit, etc. And every
Christmas, most of those I helped would send someone to the house with a
small gift. So, I always felt the reward of my efforts and those of my
compadres in Rotary in the appreciation of the people with whom we
worked. In fact, I get nostalgic when I think of it. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 5:02 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR, you wrote,

> PS: I have seen several TV and news accounts of Smokey Mountain and I
>did not perceive any bias at all. The tone of all the accounts that I
>have seen was more a condemnation of the powers that be in the RP for
not
>combating such poverty and alleviating those conditions than to condemn
>the parents of the kids who have to work there.

Speaking about Smokey Mountains, my husband thought, there was Value to

learn from the viewers especially over here in North America and he is
right! Though recycling is been here for quite sometime, not much was
then
being recycled! But lately, most of our junks can be recycled! Thanks to
these people of Smokey Mountains! These people (and their kids) from
Smokey
Mountains, gather only junks that are worth for recycling plus it give an
honest source of income!

> I think that most

>thinking people in the west (I cannot of course speak for everyone)
>realize that poverty is the cause of child labor and they urge the
>governments involved to channel more resources to alleviate the poverty.

We can't help but blame the government for such misery! But if you

already
have 74 million population, with a very weak economy, alleviating poverty
is
long way process to achieve.

> I personally spent a lot of time working with the indigent of Pampanga

>and I cannot recall any one of those folk who would not have wanted the
>luxury of being able to send all their kids to school instead of work.

True to those families who are rich or middle class or average earners.
But
for the most destitute ones, which there are many, education would be the
last dream for their children. To work and bring money is more than an
achievement.

> Even the poor and illiterate knew that the only hope for their kids to

>have a better life was to get them educated, but most also knew that,
>without outside help, this would not happen.

Illiterates may knew about educating their kids will lead to a better

life,
but when outside help do not come, dropping out from school is eminent.
The
most educational achievement for the poor is up to grade six! This is a
fact!!!

> During the time that I was

>there, my friends and I sent a lot of kids to school.

I feel it in my heart, you are a good man DLR! And glad you are around!

Nancy
>
>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Dakal salamat Cong Andy.

Mike

At 04:01 PM 4/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>In a message dated 98-04-21 13:44:49 EDT, you write:
>

><< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as

> the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
> of Filipino history? >>
>============================
>Come on DLR, you know better than that ... what probably our friend would
>like to say is ... noboby can relate better than a filipino because he lived
>for it and died for it.....emotionaly and spiritually he/she understands the
>bottom of it. Let us face the real world some people think they know what
>they know ... but in reality they look at things and interpret it in a
>different way... why? ... I dont Know...maybe that's the way it is,
>
>Andy Z.
>

>------------------------------------------------------------------
> < E balang kikinang gintu. >
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hahaha! Signs of the Time DLR, signs of the time. It is indeed
preposterous if you think about it...but not anymore.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 02:43 PM 4/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid Cabalen
> Well, I thought I had heard everything, but I was wrong. Years ago,
>when I was still teaching, the History Department at Univ. of SC had a
>symposium on slavery, using the just published and very controversial
>book Time on the Cross as the primary topic. Obviously, since this was
>my area of expertise, I attended, along with just about every major
>historian in the US who had covered the topic. Among these was a very
>well educated, but quite radical Black scholar from Jamaica. After the
>discussion had continued hot and heavy and the accusations of racism,
>etc. had grown more intense, he shocked everyone by declaring that,
>actually, NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE could write history about blacks except
>blacks, because no one but blacks could possibly understand their
>history, struggles, etc. This comment was so completely preposterous and
>idiotic that I, shy and reserved fellow that I am, felt compelled to
>respond, to wit: Taking your conclusion to the extreme, it then would be
>fair to say that only French people could write French history, Albanians
>Albanian history and so forth. Thus was born the infamous "Watermelon
>Thesis of Sub-Saharan African Migration" ... but that is another story.
> At the time I made the assertion above, it never occurred to me that
>someone would be so jingoistic and naïve to claim that only members of a
>particular nationality could write that nation's history. I was wrong!
> Now we have some other (unsigned) person claiming that only Filipinos
>can write Filipino history. In view of the fact that, as a professional
>historian, I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as

>the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
>of Filipino history?

> Cheers.
> DLR

>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Kapampangan Language and Culture
>[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
>Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 2:24 PM
>To: KAPAMPANGAN-L
>Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern
>

>< K a p a m p a n g a n >

>I don't know about that. I think you miss the point of view from the
>author and how it relates to the people of the subject matter. Great
>studies of peoples have been done for the benefit of the world.
>MacM...@galesburg.net
>Conservative Alumni Carl Sandburg College
>
> ----------
>> From: CYLLIW <CYL...@aol.com>
>> To: KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>> Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern Philippine Society
>> Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 9:50 AM

>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >

>> Comment:
>> It is really pathetic when foreigners make an historcal account of a
>country.
>> This has been true from the time history has been written about the >
>Philippines, like the accounts of Pigafetta on the pre-Hispanic natives
>and > society. The way these foreigners report of our native land is
>through their > myopic view and their condescending Western attitude. It
>must be noted that > what ills the Philippine economy and society is not
>the result of the > "exploitative" sugar industry, but a system
>established, enforced and > maintained by Western opportunist (Spanish
>conquistadores and American > military). And it is a system which until
>now, due to its vested interests, > is being encouraged to exist by the
>same western imperialists.
>>
>

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 4/23/98 1:37:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, siu...@mozcom.com
writes:

<< >In a message dated 98-04-21 13:44:49 EDT, you write:
>

><< I regard this statement with the same disdain and disgust as
> the one mentioned above, should I now develop a bagoong or balut thesis
> of Filipino history? >>

>============================
>Come on DLR, you know better than that ... what probably our friend would
>like to say is ... noboby can relate better than a filipino because he
lived
>for it and died for it.....emotionaly and spiritually he/she understands the
>bottom of it. Let us face the real world some people think they know what
>they know ... but in reality they look at things and interpret it in a
>different way... why? ... I dont Know...maybe that's the way it is,
>
>Andy Z. >>

====================================
Good Day folks,,
let us focus to the argument, as I commented on DLR's comment regarding our
kabalens
concept on foreign historian, I forgot who posted that topic.
Welll ay any rate... our kabayan is right, it is applicable on many foreigner
historians. We got side track on child labor and other thinsg...

Damn DLR your good ... you are a typical foreigner...LOL .. you are applying
the principle of divide and conquer... if somebody write up in you favor ,,,
you pat them in the back ... give them pep talk...

see you later I have to drop the kids.....
Andy Z.

[Martin McGee]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR Must be starting to get on in age being nostalgic and all.

MacM...@galesburg.net
Conservative Alumni Carl Sandburg College

----------
> From: '1 9AF/HO (Historian) <H...@a6.centaf.af.mil>

> To: KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 6:16 PM

>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> worked. In fact, I get nostalgic when I think of it. Cheers. DLR

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kapampangan Language and Culture
> [SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 5:02 PM
> To: KAPAMPANGAN-L
> Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern
>

> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Andy,
Cacusuelu cu capatad caniting posting mu! Mayap namu aisip me ini! Icaming
ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua
ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True $20.00 will
make a difference!
Nancy

At 11:13 98-04-23 EDT, you wrote:
> >============================================
>Apisabyan taya rugu ing pamanyaup karing anak keta kekatamu... atin a
>masanting proyectu "Children International" mamili kayung anak a tiga
>Pilipinas ... for $20.00 a month it will make a difference.... I will send
>more inf regarding this matter ... probably if every one of us in the K-list
>will sponsor a child... It will make a differece in our mother land's
>future.....
>
>Yanamu
>
>Andy Z.

[AZHHNURSES]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Andy Z and cabalen;

Masanting a munkai ing pamanyaup karing kayanakan kekatamu. Nung mangutang ka
siguru keti k list ali aliwa mu ring ing buri dang gawan para kareng
kayanakan.

Masanting ya mu rin ing "Children International", uling atin kung first hand
experience kareng proyectung kalupa da ren. KUTANG? magkanu kaya keng twenty
dollars mu $20.00 ing miraras king ANAK bulan-bulan. Mangaragul la masyadu
operational expenses deng organization a reni, den mung TV and other media
advertisement da magigisan ne ing maragul a parti. Masaya ka pin potang
padalan da kang sulat at letratu na ning anak. Pero pilan lang sponsor
tinangap king metung a sulat at letratung ini.

Nung bisa ka gawa ka tang project kareng kayanakan Kandaba. Mamili ka tang
metung a Baryu, metung a elementary school. Ding kekatamung kabalen, sumaup
lang siguradu.

Yanapa

Alan

[Kigo Famis]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

---desiree <des...@abacom.com> wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> Luid Andy,
> Cacusuelu cu capatad caniting posting mu! Mayap namu aisip me ini!
Icaming
> ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua
> ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True
$20.00 will
> make a difference!
> Nancy
>
>

Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
organizations is so huge, mostly going to
the fat salaries of the executives.

Did you happen to know how much your "foster"
child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference?

You might have asked the family when you personally
met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
to do so.

K
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

No, friend Mac, that is not true. I was "getting on in age" when I was
in the RP. Now to my chagrin, I am far past that and well into senility
and suffering from Alzheimers. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 7:23 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR Must be starting to get on in age being nostalgic and all.
MacM...@galesburg.net
Conservative Alumni Carl Sandburg College

----------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy
Don't drop the kids too hard as the Child Abuse Police will get you. Do
you really think it is a characteristic of "foreigners" to thank those
who agree with them in a discussion? I think that probably is a pretty
universal trait. Anyway, I also applaud those who disagree with me,
because if everybody always agreed, what would be the point of the list?
Just to praise each others' good taste in agreeing with all the things
we said???
I appreciate all comments, both pro and con. And I thank everyone who
made them. How else will we learn unless we question and dispute. That
is the Socratic method and I think it works. So, Andy, please accept my
deepest thanks for giving your opinion and defending your position.
Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 6:56 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 4/23/98 1:37:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
siu...@mozcom.com
writes:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[AZHHNURSES]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

This is also a good one Paul.

Alan

[AZHHNURSES]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Andy Z and cabalens;

OYNI ING PALNO;

Spring of 1999 (Maleldo)

Plan 1
Kunan ta ya population ing metung a elementary school king metung a baryu
Kandaba.
a. Gawa tamung HYGIENE KIT (toothbrush, nailclipper, sabun, towel, comb,
tsinelas, bandaid, kwell shampoo etc for distribution)

Plan 2 (three days) 300 patients.
Dental Clinic ( 3 TO FIVE DENTIST) from Pampanga , which we can invite.
Thursday, friday, saturday
We will provide their supplies and anesthesia equipment.

Plan 3 (three day process)
Medical clinic ( 3 doctors)
Day one thursday (medical screening for 150 patients) by a nurse
Day two friday am laboratory test for patients requiring blood test (ready for
next day)
Day three saturday 150 patients to see the doctors. Prescription to be issued
and filled up...THESE IS WHERE WE NEED THE MONEY TO BUY THEIR MEDICINE AT
LEAST ONE MONTH SUPPLY...POTA RUGU ATLU MUNG SAMPLE IN BIE TAMU MAKARINE. WE
WILL UTILIZED A LOCAL PHARMACY, WE WILL BUY THE MEDICINE AND REDISTRIBUTE ON
SUNDAY.

Minor surgery can also be done...on local anesthesia

Support personel 10 elders from the baryo , 10 nurses volunteer.

We should only coordinate with local elders, and no political component.

Ayupaya

[Dizon Abel V]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid C. Alan,

O balamu panaun dareng "frailes" ining malilyari kening sinabi mu.
Misubli ing "polo" o forced labor but this time with a twist. O bat mo
papagobran do pa keng kumbentu, ne? Keng sablang balu ku makualta ya ing
pisamban at agyu dang mamayad obreros. Papagobran do pa for the measly
sum of 120 pesos? E ata ustu ini.

Abel

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, AZHHNURSES wrote:
>
> The child I knew received 120.00 PESOS a month this is after they (with
> parents) are called to do some house cleaning at the convent where they get
> the money.

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Alan
Sounds like a great plan. Again, though, I would suggest working through
the local Rotary club as most of them have done these kinds of MEDCAPS
before and have lots of experience. As I mentioned before, they cannot
take any of these funds for normal club expenses. Also, many Rotary
clubs contain members who are doctors, so this makes organizing the
entire process easier. It's a good project and I wish you well. Cheers
DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 3:51 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Andy Z and cabalens;

OYNI ING PALNO;

Spring of 1999 (Maleldo)

Ayupaya

Alan

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy
That is a great idea, but be careful. Recently there have been some
scandals in- volving some of these organizations (not all by any means).
Some of them advertise that you can sponsor a kid for a small amount per
month, but it turns out that the money is not necessarily going to kids,
etc. Maybe to office administration fees. It is best to check with the
Secretary of State of your particular state or with the Better Business
Bureau to see which is the best group to support. Cheers, DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 2:45 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-23 08:12:31 EDT, you write:

<< Even the poor and illiterate knew that the only hope for their kids
to
> >have a better life was to get them educated, but most also knew that,
> >without outside help, this would not happen.
> >>

============================================
Apisabyan taya rugu ing pamanyaup karing anak keta kekatamu... atin a
masanting proyectu "Children International" mamili kayung anak a tiga
Pilipinas ... for $20.00 a month it will make a difference.... I will
send
more inf regarding this matter ... probably if every one of us in the
K-list
will sponsor a child... It will make a differece in our mother land's
future.....

Yanamu

Andy Z.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Ariel
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but your very insightful
and to the point comments made me think of it. Here is the example: in
the 1820s a Frenchman came to the US and traveled the entire country.
His name was Alexis de Tocqueville and his books still remain one of the
best "pictures" of the US at that time. There are thousands of examples
of people from one nation or ethnic group writing and teaching the
history of another. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

........................just to stoke the fires, here's another cord of
wood

if only a filipino can write about philippine history, do you
think his background matters?
what if a "pure" filipino, was raised by pure filipino parents, let say
in
paris since he was 10 years old. went to school and earn his higher
education in paris. would he qualify to write about philippine history?

would his educational and social environment affect his "outlook"
,
his "feelings" , for our motherland? would his point-of-views be
criticised as "western."

or let's just say, a pure filipino who went to college in
america,
earned his master's and ph'd in europe, would he be qualified to write
about philippine history. if so, don't you think his "thinking" and
"perspective" might reflect some of his western professors way of
thinking?

or what about a filipino boy or girl who since childhood has
shown
an interest in other culltures, discovering the Ilocanos, Visayan and
Mindano cultures as a teen. then in college got interested in western
european history, then focused his/her attention towards the history of
norway and the vikings.
he then went to finish college in oslo, lived with a norwegian family,
stayed the rest of his life in norway
researching and writing about the history of norway.
would you read and believe his books? how would the rest of the
world react to his books?
would his body of works, painstakingly compiled for at least 20 years,
be
accepted ? would norwegians accept his writings?

ariel

[ManoloGatbonton]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cabalen,

Mediu maranun cung mi uli ngening aldo iti at ablasanan ke sana ing
sulat nang Mike ketang pamunta na Kandaba pero me-akua ya ing atencion
cu kening proposal nang Alan. Masanting yang proposal iti at matula pero
paka-isipan ye sana.

Ala nang aliua pang matula inggil keng pamaiaup kareng kabalen cu nung
e yaku pero dacal nacu ikit dinatang at meko karening macanian a
proyekto. Masanting la pero caibat na nita ala na :( Malacuan no naman
rugu deng calulung tau at yamu rin ing sadia.

E yu sana mamarokan ing canacung aduang cusing. Ketang malati cu
atatandanan ke pa Manda Elizalde, ya ing peka punu na ning PANAMIN,
macanian mu rin deng aliuang grupong memamunta carin cayabe no carin
deng Amerikanu ibat king Clark Air Base at aliua pa. Ing peka masanting
dili ing mag punla kareng anac at itanam ing Cultura tamu.

Nung talagang buring tamung saupan, i concentrate tala kareng anac,
caya pin mas buri ke ing pangadua mung sulat Alan.

AZHHNURSES wrote:
>
> Nung bisa ka gawa ka tang project kareng kayanakan Kandaba. Mamili ka tang
> metung a Baryu, metung a elementary school. Ding kekatamung kabalen, sumaup
> lang siguradu.

E mu acutang, pilan banua ing milabas at atin aduang anac ibat Minalin
a meniuad saup canita at ngeni malapit neng mayari itang pangadua. Itang
matua carela meyari ne king H.S. Itang canacu namang panuling tauli,
ikit cung mipabustan ya ing escuela king Balen. Ing Saint Andrew's
Academy. Metung king king ikit problema ing pamamalakad at relasyun ning
administrasyun kareng memalen. Ing manamdaman ing calulung estudyanteng
bisang mabiasa. Nanupata, aliua mu ing estudyante ing mangailangan saup,
pati na deng tala-turu. Cailangan la deng magaling a tala turu, pero e
mo asisisian nung cailangan dang dang i concentrate ing energy king
pamanintunan (side line at aliua pa) King malaguang salita. Mas
masanting ing mag-pagaral anac.

Muna: mitanam king isip ning anac a atin taung mag-malasakit careng
calulu.

Pangadua: Iti balamu bini yang pinunla, e tamu balu nung nanu ya ing
maging bunga na pero siguradu yang atin tsansang tumubu.

Pangatlu: Manatili ya king anac ing edukasyun a icua na, e me alaco
caya ita, parte na ne ning panga tao na.

Pangapat: Maragul a posibilidad a masensu ya ing anac at male mu
macasaup ya naman kareng aliua potang datang ing panaun.

Ing isipan cu canita pa, nung atatandanan yu at mig-research cu careng
tuition da reng anac Pampanga at mika atin tamung scholarship macanian.
Magumpisa tamu keng HS at potang cayi malyari tamung mag-sponsor keng
colegio.

Pasensiya na cayu at mi pakaba ya ing sulat cu.

Yanapamu,

Manolo

AZHHNURSES wrote:
>
> OYNI ING PALNO;
>
> Spring of 1999 (Maleldo)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Marc Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi DLR,

You're right, of course, that opposition to child labor is a recent thing in the
West. This is because the industrial revolution is recent history. The
industrial revolution produced the working conditions that were harmful to
children, including the demand for coal to power industry.

When you really come right down to it, what were the children doing before they
also were harnessed (pun intended) by industry? They were also working, of
course, but the working conditions were perfect because it was out in the open
air--working the land. When it rained and when it was cold, everyone stayed
indoors, unlike nowadays even when there is a blizzard people still try to get
to work.

Marc
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Author: "'1 9AF/HO (Historian)" <H...@a6.centaf.af.mil> at Internet-Express
Date: 4/22/98 11:28 AM

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy

[snip]

However, I must tell you that this opposition to child labor is a recent
thing in the west. One only has to read Charles Dickens or look at
the history of labor in the west to realize that it was not until the
very end of the 19th century that child labor was outlawed in western
nations.

[snip]

[Paul Tiglao]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Komusta kabalen,
Tungkol keng pamag-sponsor:
Atin kaming asosasyun ketin San Diego a puro tiga- Bamban. Megumpisa two
years ago, mig-sponsor kaming adwang estudyante king Bamban a mangailangan
saup para makapag-aral high school pero ali da agyu. Silatanan mila deng
principal dareng aliwa-liwang elementary school at mig-request kaming
atlung lagyu balang eskuwela kareng grade six na mag-graduate with honors
but can't afford to go to high school ban kanita maging fair ing pama-mili
mi. Nung ating mumuli kareng tiga keni, magdala lang balita tungkol kareng
anak........ Ing suma-tutal, angga ngeni, atsu la keng honor roll deng
adwang anak., at matula kami na maski ditak, makasaup kami......ing metung
kung kusing, titoy

At 10:12 AM 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>---desiree <des...@abacom.com> wrote:
>>
>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>> Luid Andy,
>> Cacusuelu cu capatad caniting posting mu! Mayap namu aisip me ini!
>Icaming
>> ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua
>> ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True
>$20.00 will
>> make a difference!
>> Nancy
>>
>>
> Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
> difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
>organizations is so huge, mostly going to
> the fat salaries of the executives.
>
> Did you happen to know how much your "foster"
> child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference?
>
> You might have asked the family when you personally
> met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
>to do so.
>
> K
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> < Nu ya man munta ing ortilanu, darala ne ing sarul na. >
>
>The Kapampangan Homepage <http://www.balen.net>
>To unsubscribe, send the command (without quotes)
> "SIGNOFF KAPAMPANGAN-L" to LIST...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM.
>If you have questions about the list, write to:
> KAPAMPANGA...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>

Paul Tiglao
CSU San Marcos
e-mail: pti...@mailhost1.csusm.edu
http://www.balen.net

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

hello Ariel,
I think we are missing the point. no body said that no one is allowed or can
write someones history... I think the argument is as it was: an insider
(historian local to that place) can relate better,than foreigner who could
have a bias account of the history of a certain subject, due to numerated
factors discussed on previous threads.

, Ariel you write:

ariel
>>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-23 11:45:53 EDT, you write:

<< Luid Andy,
Cacusuelu cu capatad caniting posting mu! Mayap namu aisip me ini! Icaming
ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua
ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True $20.00 will
make a difference!
Nancy
>>

=================================
Aru ... masanting ya pin ing gagawan yu... ika mi rugung mi-asawa manibat
niyang miras ku keti america... meka atlu na kami, uling balamu potang mag-
highschool nala ilako da no king program... ita pin rugu nung ita mu ngan keti
Klist agawa tamu ita... balamu masanting ne Kaka...

Andy Z.

metung pang masanting gawan .. keti dakal a imalan a masanting pa at masalese
padala la king pilipinas....

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-23 12:04:06 EDT, you write:

<< Nung bisa ka gawa ka tang project kareng kayanakan Kandaba. Mamili ka tang
metung a Baryu, metung a elementary school. Ding kekatamung kabalen, sumaup
lang siguradu.

Yanapa

Alan

-----------------------------------------------------------------
aru... iyan ing masanting tang gawan ... kesa king makipagtunggali kata kang
DLR (LOL)..
seriously... dapat malwat tanang gagawan yan keti k -list... kol ku ... this
is the kind of things I would like The K-list would be doing ... and
executing... let me know your plans... at atsu la ken ding kayabe tamu king K-
list ....

Please ... let do it

Andy Z.

[JAZPINOY]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

In a message dated 98-04-23 13:10:16 EDT, you write:

<< Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
organizations is so huge, mostly going to
the fat salaries of the executives.

Did you happen to know how much your "foster"
child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference?

You might have asked the family when you personally
met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
to do so.

K >>
Hello my friend,
you are right, a little portion of it goes to the sponsored child/children.
My understanding is they don't even provide for food or basic household
necessity.. as you have said I am not sure how the money is allocated. I think
the only consolation I have is, three times a year I receive a letter from the
kid thanking me. He also give some info on how he is doing in school.

Actually you gave me a good idea.. I will ask them...

Thanks

[Kigo Famis]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

---Ariel Malig <ari...@email.his.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> ........................just to stoke the fires, here's another
cord of wood
>
> if only a filipino can write about philippine history, do you
> think his background matters?
> what if a "pure" filipino, was raised by pure filipino parents, let
say in
> paris since he was 10 years old. went to school and earn his higher
> education in paris. would he qualify to write about philippine
history?
>

Perhaps yes

> would his educational and social environment affect his
"outlook" ,
> his "feelings" , for our motherland? would his point-of-views be
> criticised as "western."

Probably yes!

>
> or let's just say, a pure filipino who went to college in
america,
> earned his master's and ph'd in europe, would he be qualified to
write
> about philippine history. if so, don't you think his "thinking"
and
> "perspective" might reflect some of his western professors way of
thinking?

Possibly yes

>
> or what about a filipino boy or girl who since childhood has
shown
> an interest in other culltures, discovering the Ilocanos, Visayan
and
> Mindano cultures as a teen. then in college got interested in
western
> european history, then focused his/her attention towards the
history of
> norway and the vikings.
> he then went to finish college in oslo, lived with a norwegian
family,
> stayed the rest of his life in norway
> researching and writing about the history of norway.
> would you read and believe his books? how would the rest
of the
> world react to his books?
> would his body of works, painstakingly compiled for at least 20
years, be
> accepted ? would norwegians accept his writings?

Some indefinitely yes, some indefinitely no.
But that is only if Norwegians are like the Kapampangans in this
list. :)

IMHO though, history should be purely facts and
nothing else. I don't regard written analyses and opinions and
feelings of others on historical events as history. Afterall it
will be my own personal analysis and opinion and feeling on
history that will really matter to me.

On the otherhand I also value "history" as written
by "historians" as long as I am well aware that there might
be some biases in there.

So who is qualified to write "History"? Anybody is.

K

>
> ariel

>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> < Nu ya man munta ing ortilanu, darala ne ing sarul na. >
>
> The Kapampangan Homepage <http://www.balen.net>
> To unsubscribe, send the command (without quotes)
> "SIGNOFF KAPAMPANGAN-L" to LIST...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM.
> If you have questions about the list, write to:
> KAPAMPANGA...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>

_________________________________________________________

DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[AZHHNURSES]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

The child I knew received 120.00 PESOS a month this is after they (with

parents) are called to do some house cleaning at the convent where they get
the money.

Alan

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi friend Mike, I hope this means that you agree with me. Also, there
was another email from you concerning a book and computer issues, but I
could only translate some of it. Are you now working on a book, and if
so, what kind? I would like to hear more about it. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 3:26 AM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hahaha! Signs of the Time DLR, signs of the time. It is indeed
preposterous if you think about it...but not anymore.
Siuala ding Meangubie

.

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

At 19:16 98-04-22 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Oh Nancy, thank you so much. I just did what I saw needed to be done as
>much as I could afford.

You are very welcome! I can imagine how many young folks, you'd help to have
a better life!

> So that means child labor is not a
>cultural thing, as some of the responders suggested, but a necessity
>driven by poverty.

No, it is not a culture! In most cases, we see poor parents will send their
young daugther, to work as an helper (house maids)! This is still in practice.

>BTW, when people mention Filipino or Kapampangan hospitality, I always
>remind them that whenever I went out into the country side, even if it
>was in the most miserable house in the poorest of barrios, the mother or
>father quickly would send the kids to the closest sari-sari store for a
>coke for me and my friends. If there was no money, they would borrow.

This gesture of hospitality has not change much! Its too good to be true!
Don't you think so! :0)

> If there was no store nearby, it would be some fruit, etc. And every
>Christmas, most of those I helped would send someone to the house with a
>small gift. So, I always felt the reward of my efforts and those of my
>compadres in Rotary in the appreciation of the people with whom we
>worked. In fact, I get nostalgic when I think of it. Cheers. DLR

Well, its time to come back and visit Phil. For sure, some of your old
friends are still there!!!

Nancy

>DLR, you wrote,

>learn from the viewers especially over here in North America and he is
>>

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[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

A> ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua

>> ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True
>$20.00 will
>> make a difference!
>> Nancy
>>
>

K, sinulat mu,

> Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
> difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
>organizations is so huge, mostly going to
> the fat salaries of the executives.

I have no doubt, it does makes a difference, because our sponsor child is in
school and in good hand.

>
> Did you happen to know how much your "foster"
> child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference

I can not tell you how much the child is receiving monthly! I see your
point, about the expenses! But we just have to trust these people to do
their job and must be paid.

> You might have asked the family when you personally
> met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
>to do so.
>

Since what we are concern most, is our sponsor child's welfare, especially
his education, we did'nt asked any question!

Nancy

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

At 13:35 98-04-23 EDT, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>In a message dated 98-04-23 11:45:53 EDT, you write:

Andy sinulat mu,

>Aru ... masanting ya pin ing gagawan yu... ika mi rugung mi-asawa manibat
>niyang miras ku keti america... meka atlu na kami, uling balamu potang mag-
>highschool nala ilako da no king program... ita pin rugu nung ita mu ngan keti
>Klist agawa tamu ita... balamu masanting ne Kaka...
>

Ecu balu ing potang mag-high school nala, idayu da nala queng program! Obat
ining sponsor mi, first year high school ne atiu pa rin queng program! Buri
que ining balk mu!

>
>metung pang masanting gawan .. keti dakal a imalan a masanting pa at masalese
>padala la king pilipinas....

Mayap yang suggestion ini, ing mecacarok ing detang aliwa tamung Kababayan,
atin mig-abuse queng system! Banuang metung atiu cu carin, meselan quing
custom, inggil caniting used clothings. Ing casing malilyari, kunwari pamie
mu careng pakakalulu pero pamisali da! Dacal a metuclas caniting systema da
dening aliwang kababayan. Atin pang macapuslit siempre, nung ating cang
caquilala quing custom o mamie $ under the table.

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Paul,
Ining asosasyon yu, masalese ya! Buri que panukala! Ngeni enacu maguinaquit
carening cabalen tamu, caracal tamu palang sasaup at macasaup!

Nancy

At 10:48 98-04-23 -0700, you wrote:
>Komusta kabalen,
>Tungkol keng pamag-sponsor:
>Atin kaming asosasyun ketin San Diego a puro tiga- Bamban. Megumpisa two
>years ago, mig-sponsor kaming adwang estudyante king Bamban a mangailangan
>saup para makapag-aral high school pero ali da agyu. Silatanan mila deng
>principal dareng aliwa-liwang elementary school at mig-request kaming
>atlung lagyu balang eskuwela kareng grade six na mag-graduate with honors
>but can't afford to go to high school ban kanita maging fair ing pama-mili
>mi. Nung ating mumuli kareng tiga keni, magdala lang balita tungkol kareng
>anak........ Ing suma-tutal, angga ngeni, atsu la keng honor roll deng
>adwang anak., at matula kami na maski ditak, makasaup kami......ing metung
>kung kusing, titoy
>
>

> At 10:12 AM 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>>---desiree <des...@abacom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>>

>>> Luid Andy,
>>> Cacusuelu cu capatad caniting posting mu! Mayap namu aisip me ini!
>>Icaming

>>> ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua
>>> ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True
>>$20.00 will
>>> make a difference!
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>>

>> Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
>> difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
>>organizations is so huge, mostly going to
>> the fat salaries of the executives.
>>

>> Did you happen to know how much your "foster"

>> child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference?

>>
>> You might have asked the family when you personally
>> met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
>>to do so.
>>

>> K

>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>

>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> < Nu ya man munta ing ortilanu, darala ne ing sarul na. >
>>
>>The Kapampangan Homepage <http://www.balen.net>
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>>

>Paul Tiglao
>CSU San Marcos
>e-mail: pti...@mailhost1.csusm.edu
>http://www.balen.net
>

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Marc
That's it. Working conditions in the early factories and mines were so
absolutely horrible that it finally brought the attention of reformers.
Also, of course, the reverse of this was that, as the result of working
in those places, families received enough money so that in most cases,
they were able to afford to send their kids to school. And then, the
final thing was that in most industrialized countries, school became
mandatory. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 8:12 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi DLR,

You're right, of course, that opposition to child labor is a recent thing
in
the
West. This is because the industrial revolution is recent history. The
industrial revolution produced the working conditions that were harmful
to
children, including the demand for coal to power industry.

When you really come right down to it, what were the children doing
before
they
also were harnessed (pun intended) by industry? They were also working,
of
course, but the working conditions were perfect because it was out in the
open
air--working the land. When it rained and when it was cold, everyone
stayed
indoors, unlike nowadays even when there is a blizzard people still try
to get
to work.

Marc
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Author: "'1 9AF/HO (Historian)" <H...@a6.centaf.af.mil> at
Internet-Express
Date: 4/22/98 11:28 AM

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Andy

[snip]
However, I must tell you that this opposition to child labor is a recent
thing in the west. One only has to read Charles Dickens or look at
the history of labor in the west to realize that it was not until
the
very end of the 19th century that child labor was outlawed in
western
nations.

[snip]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

God how I wish I could! In three years I will have spent 30 years in the
"loyal service" of the USAF and can retire. I would like nothing better
than to return to the RP either permanently or even for temporary visits
to set up some sort of charitable process there, either through Rotary or
in an independent fashion. Maybe when all these Kapampangan museums,
etc. get completed they will need an historian to run them! Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 11:45 PM

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

At 19:16 98-04-22 -0400, you wrote:

Nancy

-----------------------------------------------------------------

['1 9AF/HO (Historian)]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hi Nancy, et. al.
There really has been some scandal associated with some of these "Save
the Children" organizations. I say again that if you want to sponsor a
child in the RP, the best way to insure that your money goes in the
direction and to the person you want is through a local Rotary Club.
Especially if you still have relatives in the area, it is an easy matter
to have them check with a club and establish a monitoring process. We
did this for many years with many thousands of dollars and not one
centavo ever was wasted. Cheers. DLR

-----Original Message-----
[SMTP:KAPAMP...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

A> ning asawa cu atin caming foster sponsor Phil. Pilan namurin banua

>> ini-sponsor miya. Miquit nacami aniang minuli caming misan. True
>$20.00 will
>> make a difference!
>> Nancy
>>
>

K, sinulat mu,

> Like Allan, I highly doubt if it really makes a
> difference. The overhead expenses of these sponsoring
>organizations is so huge, mostly going to
> the fat salaries of the executives.

I have no doubt, it does makes a difference, because our sponsor child is

in
school and in good hand.
>

> Did you happen to know how much your "foster"

> child has received monthly inorder to say it made a difference

I can not tell you how much the child is receiving monthly! I see your
point, about the expenses! But we just have to trust these people to do
their job and must be paid.

> You might have asked the family when you personally
> met them, though I know it would have been quite embarassing
>to do so.
>

Since what we are concern most, is our sponsor child's welfare,

especially
his education, we did'nt asked any question!

Nancy

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR,
I support your message regarding MEDCAPS! In 1995, I had a chance to be with
a group of Doctors and Dentist for their medical mission! Lately, people in
town are always looking forward for this mission. Just last year alone, we
had a number of medical missions who came to town and once in my barrio! It
is indeed very organized!
Nancy

At 18:12 98-04-23 -0400, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Hi Alan
>Sounds like a great plan. Again, though, I would suggest working through
>the local Rotary club as most of them have done these kinds of MEDCAPS
>before and have lots of experience. As I mentioned before, they cannot
>take any of these funds for normal club expenses. Also, many Rotary
>clubs contain members who are doctors, so this makes organizing the
>entire process easier. It's a good project and I wish you well. Cheers
> DLR
>>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Marc Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Coyang Manolo,

Anyapin bandang tauli, lalu na caibat na nitang Tasaday fiasco, sasabian
da ne reng tao na PANAMINE ya dapat lagyu. Mine, mine, all is mine!!!

Marc

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: ALK: Kandaba Project, Formerly Sugar and the Origin
Author: ManoloGatbonton <mano...@norfolk.infi.net> at Internet-Express
Date: 4/23/98 5:20 PM

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cabalen,

E yu sana mamarokan ing canacung aduang cusing. Ketang malati cu
atatandanan ke pa Manda Elizalde, ya ing peka punu na ning PANAMIN,
macanian mu rin deng aliuang grupong memamunta carin cayabe no carin
deng Amerikanu ibat king Clark Air Base at aliua pa. Ing peka
masanting dili ing mag punla kareng anac at itanam ing Cultura tamu.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Marc Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Abel,

Pota galang anya gagawan da ini uling detang pengari e da buring
masabi quing "handout" la retang pera? Ban canita asabi da (adyang
queng sarili da mu) na pegobran do retang pera?

Marc
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: ALK: Sugar and the Origins of Modern

Author: Dizon Abel V <di...@stripe.Colorado.EDU> at Internet-Express
Date: 4/23/98 2:45 PM

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid C. Alan,

O balamu panaun dareng "frailes" ining malilyari kening sinabi mu.
Misubli ing "polo" o forced labor but this time with a twist. O bat mo
papagobran do pa keng kumbentu, ne? Keng sablang balu ku makualta ya ing
pisamban at agyu dang mamayad obreros. Papagobran do pa for the measly
sum of 120 pesos? E ata ustu ini.

Abel

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[ayessa]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid C. Marc,

Mapalyari mu rin pero ali naman siguru. Nungwari ating
maniamantala rugu karening tau.

Abel

Sinulat nang C. Marc,

> Pota galang anya gagawan da ini uling detang pengari e da buring
> masabi quing "handout" la retang pera? Ban canita asabi da (adyang
>queng sarili da mu) na pegobran do retang pera?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul M Hart]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Martin McGee wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> DLR Must be starting to get on in age being nostalgic and all.
> MacM...@galesburg.net
> Conservative Alumni Carl Sandburg College
>

Mac,
And we don't?
Paul

[Paul M Hart]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

JAZPINOY wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> In a message dated 98-04-23 08:12:31 EDT, you write:
>
> << Even the poor and illiterate knew that the only hope for their kids to
> > >have a better life was to get them educated, but most also knew that,
> > >without outside help, this would not happen.
> > >>
> ============================================
> Apisabyan taya rugu ing pamanyaup karing anak keta kekatamu... atin a
> masanting proyectu "Children International" mamili kayung anak a tiga
> Pilipinas ... for $20.00 a month it will make a difference.... I will send
> more inf regarding this matter ... probably if every one of us in the K-list
> will sponsor a child... It will make a differece in our mother land's
> future.....
>
> Yanamu
>
> Andy Z.
>

Andy,
You might try writing to Philip Merritt at
pmnu...@mail.ang.sequel.net
Ask him what his Rotary Club does to help children. You might
like what you hear and wish to support them. The Rotary Club
of Mabalacat and all the other clubs in the Angeles area do quite
a bit to help.

Paul M Hart

[Paul M Hart]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

AZHHNURSES wrote:
>
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> Luid Andy Z and cabalens;

>
> OYNI ING PALNO;
>
> Spring of 1999 (Maleldo)
>

> Plan 1
> Kunan ta ya population ing metung a elementary school king metung a baryu
> Kandaba.
> a. Gawa tamung HYGIENE KIT (toothbrush, nailclipper, sabun, towel, comb,
> tsinelas, bandaid, kwell shampoo etc for distribution)
>
> Plan 2 (three days) 300 patients.
> Dental Clinic ( 3 TO FIVE DENTIST) from Pampanga , which we can invite.
> Thursday, friday, saturday
> We will provide their supplies and anesthesia equipment.
>
> Plan 3 (three day process)
> Medical clinic ( 3 doctors)
> Day one thursday (medical screening for 150 patients) by a nurse
> Day two friday am laboratory test for patients requiring blood test (ready for
> next day)
> Day three saturday 150 patients to see the doctors. Prescription to be issued
> and filled up...THESE IS WHERE WE NEED THE MONEY TO BUY THEIR MEDICINE AT
> LEAST ONE MONTH SUPPLY...POTA RUGU ATLU MUNG SAMPLE IN BIE TAMU MAKARINE. WE
> WILL UTILIZED A LOCAL PHARMACY, WE WILL BUY THE MEDICINE AND REDISTRIBUTE ON
> SUNDAY.
>
> Minor surgery can also be done...on local anesthesia
>
> Support personel 10 elders from the baryo , 10 nurses volunteer.
>
> We should only coordinate with local elders, and no political component.
>
> Ayupaya
>
> Alan

Alan,
Communicate with the Rotary Club of Mabalacat through Philip Merrit
pmnu...@mail.ang.sequel.net
Through him to Dr. Oscar Aurelio and Dr Rico Gugui. They have
experience in doing this type of thing you want to do.

Paul M Hart
pmh...@dynasty.net

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

DLR, you wrote

>Hi Nancy, et. al.
> There really has been some scandal associated with some of these "Save
>the Children" organizations.
>

I have'nt heard of the "Save the Children" organization, but I know of a
"Free the Children" founded by a young Canadian, Craig Kielburger.

>I say again that if you want to sponsor a
>child in the RP, the best way to insure that your money goes in the
>direction and to the person you want is through a local Rotary Club.
> Especially if you still have relatives in the area, it is an easy matter
>to have them check with a club and establish a monitoring process. We
>did this for many years with many thousands of dollars and not one
>centavo ever was wasted. Cheers. DLR

How does it work exactly with the Rotarians, if I wish to sponsor a child to
school? I do know some Rotarians from San Fernando, but I wanted the first
hand info from you. It's very convincing and sure a lot easier!
Nancy

[desiree]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Abel, Marc,
Salabat cu caniting pisasabian yu. Eyu wari balu, andat meniawad cang saup
carin quecatamung memaryu ngening salucuyan, babayad na! Ala nang "T" "Y" o
bayanihan a sasabian da! Quetang minuna, deng siping bale sumaup la anggang
papag-capen mulamu. Oyni namu, dening memasang passion carin Paroba queta
quecami, pepabayad la. Malagad siguru manaquit cayu pang loyal a taga-silbi,
maging quen pisamban, o pibalebale!
Yamu ini ing canacu!
A. Nancy

At 23:37 98-04-24 -0600, you wrote:
>Luid C. Marc,
>
> Mapalyari mu rin pero ali naman siguru. Nungwari ating
>maniamantala rugu karening tau.
>
>Abel
>
> Sinulat nang C. Marc,
>
> > Pota galang anya gagawan da ini uling detang pengari e da buring
> > masabi quing "handout" la retang pera? Ban canita asabi da (adyang
> >queng sarili da mu) na pegobran do retang pera?
>
>

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