ALK: Andres Bonifacio's Roots

[Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid cayu ngan Cabalen,

Several times on this list, Andres Bonifacio's roots have been discussed,
but we could arrive at no definite conclusion as to whether any of his
forebears were Kapampangan. A few days ago I was finally able to
correspond with Dom Ignacio Maria, OSB (better known as Ambeth R. Ocampo)
and below is the transcript of our correspondence. For those who are not
familiar with Ambeth, in the July 1996 issue of Filipinas Magazine, he is
described as "the leading popularizer of Philippine history, . . . a
Philippine Daily Inquirer columnist, and a Benedictine monk." He is the
author of, among others, "Bonifacio's Bolo," and, more recently, "Rizal
Without the Overcoat," "Mabini's Ghost," and "Looking Back." After this,
we should be hearing more from him, as he has joined us on the K-List.
Malaus ca queng K-List, Ambeth!

>I would like to clarify the previous correspondence we had about the
KKK. You >mentioned in your letter that Teodoro Agoncillo himself wrote
that KKK stands for >"Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galang Katipunan ng manga
Anak ng Bayan"; but in >his Filipino Heritage (Volume 7, page 1936)
article, "Katipunan: Army In the >Shadows," he writes that it is
"Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galangan Katipunan >ng manga Anak ng Bayan." Is
this then a typo in Filipino Heritage?

Ambeth writes:
Yes, the Filipino Heritage is a typo. I don't know where that phantom
"an" gets attached to Kagalang-galang in the KKK. It is not in the
original documents you know, but it sounds kulang without it right?

>One of the hot topics on the K-List was the role of the Macabebes in the
capture >of Aguinaldo. It was mentioned by a number of members with
roots in >Macabebe that the reason why the Macabebes helped Funston was
to get >back at Aguinaldo for eliminating Bonifacio, who was either their
townmate or >distant relative. Mention was also made of the large number
of Kapampangans >in Tondo who had been there even before the Spaniards
came, and who were >said to be relatives of Bonifacio.

Ambeth writes:
The business about the Macabebes is fascinating but is very much an
old wives' tale. The Macabebes were mercenaries; they were only doing
their job and they did not owe allegiance either to Aguinaldo or
Bonifacio, whose paternal grandfather was a Spaniard (hohoho he is not a
pure
indio as we would like to believe!) and his maternal relatives were from
Zambales, which, as we know, was once part of greater Pampanga. If the
Macabebes were Aetas pwede pa.

How can I get in your e-mail kapampangan list?
ambeth

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[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kabalen,

With due respect to Ocampo's reputation as an historian, I still
think it would be better if he provided documentation to his
statements. I haven't heard that Bonifacio's grandfather was
Spanish before. While not impossible, it would seem rather
rare for a second generation mestizo to be living in Tondo during
Spanish rule. Also, I don't get the statement about Aetas.
Is he suggesting that Bonifacio's mother was Aeta?

Yanamu,
Pol

[Andro Camiling]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid cayu ngan cayabe quing K-List!

At 01:35 AM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Luid cayu ngan Cabalen,

>I would like to clarify the previous correspondence we had about the
>KKK. You mentioned in your letter that Teodoro Agoncillo himself wrote
>that KKK stands for "Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galang Katipunan ng manga
>Anak ng Bayan"; but in his Filipino Heritage (Volume 7, page 1936)
>article, "Katipunan: Army In the >Shadows," he writes that it is
>"Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galangan Katipunan ng manga Anak ng Bayan." Is
>this then a typo in Filipino Heritage?

>Ambeth writes:

>Yes, the Filipino Heritage is a typo. I don't know where that phantom
>"an" gets attached to Kagalang-galang in the KKK. It is not in the
>original documents you know, but it sounds kulang without it right?
>
>>One of the hot topics on the K-List was the role of the Macabebes in the
>capture >of Aguinaldo. It was mentioned by a number of members with
>roots in >Macabebe that the reason why the Macabebes helped Funston was
>to get >back at Aguinaldo for eliminating Bonifacio, who was either their
>townmate or >distant relative. Mention was also made of the large number
>of Kapampangans >in Tondo who had been there even before the Spaniards
>came, and who were >said to be relatives of Bonifacio.

Andro's Comments:

I am confused now with the right name of the Katipunan. According to Page 104
of Political and Cultural History of the Philippines by Eufronio Alip, Ph.
Litt. D.,
that the formal name the society (Katipunan) took was Kataastaasan
Kagalang-galangang
Katipunan Nang Anak ng Bayan which means "The Highest and the Noblest
Society of the
Sons of the People".

>Ambeth writes:

>The business about the Macabebes is fascinating but is very much an
>old wives' tale. The Macabebes were mercenaries; they were only doing
>their job and they did not owe allegiance either to Aguinaldo or
>Bonifacio, whose paternal grandfather was a Spaniard (hohoho he is not a
>pure
>indio as we would like to believe!) and his maternal relatives were from
>Zambales, which, as we know, was once part of greater Pampanga. If the
>Macabebes were Aetas pwede pa.
>
>How can I get in your e-mail kapampangan list?
>ambeth

Andro's comments:

As a matter of reference, Andres Bonifacio's parents were Santiago
Bonifacio and
Catalina de Castro from Zambales.

Welcome aboard, Ambeth!

Thanks for reading!

Andro

[Paul Tiglao]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Kabalen,
Is the word "tipun" meaning to gather, save, etc, a K-word, or a derivation
of the tagalog word "ipon" If not, what is the K equivalent? On the word,
"Katipunan", the root word seem to be "ipon".

Just curious,

titoy

Paul A. Tiglao
Accountant, Special Funds
CSU San Marcos
San Marcos, CA 92096-0001
E-mail address: pti...@mailhost1.csusm.edu

[Andro Camiling]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

At 04:51 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Luid Kabalen,
>Is the word "tipun" meaning to gather, save, etc, a K-word, or a derivation
>of the tagalog word "ipon" If not, what is the K equivalent? On the word,
>"Katipunan", the root word seem to be "ipon".
>
>Just curious,
>
>titoy

Andro's Comments:

I am not sure if this word, "tipun" is an original K-word but as a verb in
addition
to what you wrote already it means also "collect" and "accumulate" such as in
titipun, tinipun, tumipun, titipunan.

As a noun in Kapampangan, such as in "pititipunan" it means "depot" and in
"pamitipuntipun"
it means "assembly".

Can we say then that "Katipunan" is "Pamitipuntipun" in Kapampangan?

Thanks for reading.

Andro

------------------------------------------------------------------
< Alang masyas a tinape king mapaling cafe. >

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Tipun is very much Kapampangan. Tagalog in some ways is related to
Kapampangan, thus it is understandable that some words may sound the same
if not exactly similar. Try to think spherical or circular and not linear.
It is the Kapampangan way. Don't ride with the western myth that
development, change and influences are linear...that a dominant culture
[ha!] endowed lesser cultures[ha!] with their amazing grace...that all
lesser cultures [ha!] could do is borrow.

Sige. Mingat.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 04:51 PM 9/17/97 -0700, Paul Tiglao wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid Kabalen,
>Is the word "tipun" meaning to gather, save, etc, a K-word, or a derivation
>of the tagalog word "ipon" If not, what is the K equivalent? On the word,
>"Katipunan", the root word seem to be "ipon".
>
>Just curious,
>
>titoy
>
>

>At 04:31 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>>Luid cayu ngan cayabe quing K-List!
>>
>>At 01:35 AM 9/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>Luid cayu ngan Cabalen,
>>
>>>I would like to clarify the previous correspondence we had about the
>>>KKK. You mentioned in your letter that Teodoro Agoncillo himself wrote
>>>that KKK stands for "Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galang Katipunan ng manga
>>>Anak ng Bayan"; but in his Filipino Heritage (Volume 7, page 1936)
>>>article, "Katipunan: Army In the >Shadows," he writes that it is
>>>"Kataas-taasang Kagalang-galangan Katipunan ng manga Anak ng Bayan." Is
>>>this then a typo in Filipino Heritage?
>>
>>>Ambeth writes:
>>
>>>Yes, the Filipino Heritage is a typo. I don't know where that phantom
>>>"an" gets attached to Kagalang-galang in the KKK. It is not in the
>>>original documents you know, but it sounds kulang without it right?
>>>
>>>>One of the hot topics on the K-List was the role of the Macabebes in the
>>>capture >of Aguinaldo. It was mentioned by a number of members with
>>>roots in >Macabebe that the reason why the Macabebes helped Funston was
>>>to get >back at Aguinaldo for eliminating Bonifacio, who was either their
>>>townmate or >distant relative. Mention was also made of the large number
>>>of Kapampangans >in Tondo who had been there even before the Spaniards
>>>came, and who were >said to be relatives of Bonifacio.
>>

>>Andro's Comments:
>>

>>The Kapampangan Homepage <http://www.balen.net>
>>To unsubscribe, send the command (without quotes)
>> "SIGNOFF KAPAMPANGAN-L" to LIST...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM.
>>If you have questions about the list, write to:
>> KAPAMPANGA...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>>
>>

>Paul A. Tiglao
>Accountant, Special Funds
>CSU San Marcos
>San Marcos, CA 92096-0001
>E-mail address: pti...@mailhost1.csusm.edu
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
> < Ing lugud ala yang gagalangan ninu man. >
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kayu ngan kabalen,

I think I'm left out here. All my mail were erased since 11 Sept. What
is this about?

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 03:41 PM 9/17/97 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid kabalen,
>
>With due respect to Ocampo's reputation as an historian, I still
>think it would be better if he provided documentation to his
>statements. I haven't heard that Bonifacio's grandfather was
>Spanish before. While not impossible, it would seem rather
>rare for a second generation mestizo to be living in Tondo during
>Spanish rule. Also, I don't get the statement about Aetas.
>Is he suggesting that Bonifacio's mother was Aeta?
>
>Yanamu,
>Pol
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kayu Kabalen,

Katipunan. Tagalog or Kapampangan, it means the same thing.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 09:39 AM 9/18/97 -0700, Andro Camiling wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>At 04:51 PM 9/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Luid Kabalen,
>>Is the word "tipun" meaning to gather, save, etc, a K-word, or a derivation
>>of the tagalog word "ipon" If not, what is the K equivalent? On the word,
>>"Katipunan", the root word seem to be "ipon".
>>
>>Just curious,
>>
>>titoy
>

>Andro's Comments:
>

>I am not sure if this word, "tipun" is an original K-word but as a verb in
>addition
>to what you wrote already it means also "collect" and "accumulate" such as in
>titipun, tinipun, tumipun, titipunan.
>
>As a noun in Kapampangan, such as in "pititipunan" it means "depot" and in
>"pamitipuntipun"
>it means "assembly".
>
>Can we say then that "Katipunan" is "Pamitipuntipun" in Kapampangan?
>
>Thanks for reading.
>
>Andro
>

[Alex Dizon]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Siula said:

>Try to think spherical or circular and not linear.
>It is the Kapampangan way.

Sounds fine but be careful lest you encounter a spherical abberation! ;))

Incidentally how can someone be sure that his perception of things is
correct?

Alex

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid ca Alex,

Quite right, you can never be sure. About that circular way of
thinking,...Haha! A spherical aberration, that's a good one. We may
indeed end up running around in circles.
But seriously, I am talking more about about culture when I said "Think
Spherical".
Edwin Camaya, Ing Paro e Matudtud, has put it nicely..."Ala na mang
culturang Superior. Even Kapampangan can not claim that its culture is
superior to Tagalog. Pantepante la mu ren."
Remember the game of Jan Ken Po, or Paper-Scissor-Rock? That is what I
mean about "circular". I think it is childishly western to ask who will
win the battle between Batman and Superman -linear...
Think circular. Which is better: Paper, Scissor, or Rock? All and none.
Each is superior in its own special way but one can not claim to be better
than the other. Cycle. Circle. Eternal. Infinite.

Siuala ding Meangubie

[Alex Dizon]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Mike,

Immensely enjoyed that classic dyak-en-poy illustration showing
what you meant by 'to think circular'.

But what I actually meant by speherical aberration, on the other hand, is
the distortion in one's perception on realities caused by false or wrong
impressions on things---something similar to when one is looking through a
thick speherical curved glass. Somehow, in life, we are all looking through
a glass of varying curvature depending on how careul and alert we
are.

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

I stand corrected Alex.
I was thinking of something else.
Sorry for being presumptious.
Thank you.
Hope to hear from you again.

Siuala ding Meangubie

------------------------------------------------------------------
< Alang masyas a tinape king mapaling cape. >

[Ambeth Ocampo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Dear Pol
Thanks for being skeptical about Bonifacio's Spanish ancestry. I know
its not in the books you have read which is alright. Worse, there are
many things in the things you read that are wrong. The documentation
for Bonifacio's ancestry was taken not from Bonifacio's baptismal
certificate rather from the marriage certificate of his parents! This
document lists Andres' grandparents. Do you want me to transcrbie the
document in Spanish for you?
abrazos
ambeth

------------------------------------------------------------------
< Eka manganyaya ban eka mipanganyaya. >

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kayu kabalen,

"Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco" <nepo...@juno.com>
wrote:

> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> Paul,
>
> I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you are asking for:
>
> a reference versus a transcribed document?
>

Yes, a reference to the document. Is the document only in some
archive somewhere? I do have access to the local Mormon family
library and did a little research on Aguinaldo myself. Is this some
unknown document? If so, then, of course, we have to ask questions
about its authenticity.

Yanapamu,
Pol

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Sorry Cabalen for this interjection but...

Pol,
Auwe...Kapu a moe....
Kapampangan ka pin. I admire you for this.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 10:38 PM 9/28/97 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid kayu kabalen,

>
>Ambeth Ocampo wrote:
>
>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>> Dear Pol
>> Thanks for being skeptical about Bonifacio's Spanish ancestry. I know
>> its not in the books you have read which is alright. Worse, there are
>> many things in the things you read that are wrong. The documentation
>> for Bonifacio's ancestry was taken not from Bonifacio's baptismal
>> certificate rather from the marriage certificate of his parents! This
>> document lists Andres' grandparents. Do you want me to transcrbie the
>> document in Spanish for you?
>> abrazos
>> ambeth
>

>No, I'd prefer a reference. I am not at all unaware that some things
>written in history books are not correct. On the other hand, some
>people make a business of debunking and are sometimes accepted
>out of hand. Whoever wants to debunk, do so, but show your
>work.

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Mike,

You wrote:
>
> Dear Ambeth,
>
> I sent a reply to you before but unfortunately it was sent to the wrong
> address.
> I too am interested in the Spanish text which you speak of.
> It may be so that Bonifacio's paternal grandfather is Spanish (did I get
> you right so far? Forgive me, I was absent from the list for sometime),
> but are they Kapampangan Spanish? Like the Arastias of Lubao or Castelvis
> of Tarlac? Like the Kapampangan Chinese of Guagua?
> I may be wrong and my research inadequate, but as far as I've discovered
> among official Church records, the surname Bonifacio was limited to a few
> families in Macabebe/Masantol around the mid-1700s. Then later on, the
> name appeared on some lists in Hagonoy and Tondo...still traditional
> Kapampangan spheres of influence.
> Again I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me, the surname
> Bonifacio by those times never appeared in the traditional Tagalog areas of
> influence, namely Laguna and Batangas.
> Is it not possible then that Andres Bonifacio's roots could be Kapampangan
> even if they were Spanish Kapampangans at that.
>

If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
practically any other ethnic group for that matter.

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Dear Ambeth,

I sent a reply to you before but unfortunately it was sent to the wrong
address.
I too am interested in the Spanish text which you speak of.
It may be so that Bonifacio's paternal grandfather is Spanish (did I get
you right so far? Forgive me, I was absent from the list for sometime),
but are they Kapampangan Spanish? Like the Arastias of Lubao or Castelvis
of Tarlac? Like the Kapampangan Chinese of Guagua?
I may be wrong and my research inadequate, but as far as I've discovered
among official Church records, the surname Bonifacio was limited to a few
families in Macabebe/Masantol around the mid-1700s. Then later on, the
name appeared on some lists in Hagonoy and Tondo...still traditional
Kapampangan spheres of influence.
Again I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me, the surname
Bonifacio by those times never appeared in the traditional Tagalog areas of
influence, namely Laguna and Batangas.
Is it not possible then that Andres Bonifacio's roots could be Kapampangan
even if they were Spanish Kapampangans at that.

Mayubung Susuyu,
Siuala ding Meangubie

At 11:21 AM 9/29/97 +0800, Ambeth Ocampo wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Dear Pol
>Thanks for being skeptical about Bonifacio's Spanish ancestry. I know
>its not in the books you have read which is alright. Worse, there are
>many things in the things you read that are wrong. The documentation
>for Bonifacio's ancestry was taken not from Bonifacio's baptismal
>certificate rather from the marriage certificate of his parents! This
>document lists Andres' grandparents. Do you want me to transcrbie the
>document in Spanish for you?
>abrazos
>ambeth
>

[Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:07:16 -800 Paul Kekai Manansala
<sac5...@saclink.csus.edu> writes:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
>blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
>there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
>Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
>Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
>practically any other ethnic group for that matter.
>
>Yanapamu,
>Pol

Luid Pol and Mike,

By the same token, not everyone who has a drop of Kapampangan blood
running in his/her veins is Kapampangan, especially if that person,
whether hero or villain, martyr or traitor, or rich or poor, does not
identify himself/herself as Kapampangan.

Therefore, we cannot claim as our own everyone who has an iota of
Kapampangan ancestry. We cannot force anyone to identify himself/herself
as Kapampangan either. To put it in the extreme, being born on
Kapampangan soil and/or of Kapampangan ancestry do/does not a Kapampangan
make.

This issue was discussed a long time ago on the K-List and I think we
arrived at the conclusion that one born on K soil and/or of K parents
also needed to identify himself as K to be K.

MARC

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

> From: "Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco" <nepo...@juno.com>
wrote:

>

> On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:07:16 -800 Paul Kekai Manansala
> <sac5...@saclink.csus.edu> writes:
> > < K a p a m p a n g a n >
> >
> >If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
> >blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
> >there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
> >Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
> >Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
> >practically any other ethnic group for that matter.
> >
> >Yanapamu,
> >Pol
>
> Luid Pol and Mike,
>
> By the same token, not everyone who has a drop of Kapampangan blood
> running in his/her veins is Kapampangan, especially if that person,
> whether hero or villain, martyr or traitor, or rich or poor, does not
> identify himself/herself as Kapampangan.
>
> Therefore, we cannot claim as our own everyone who has an iota of
> Kapampangan ancestry. We cannot force anyone to identify himself/herself
> as Kapampangan either. To put it in the extreme, being born on
> Kapampangan soil and/or of Kapampangan ancestry do/does not a Kapampangan
> make.
>

Maybe not, but you can claim they have Kapampangan ancestry. By the
same token, someone with no Kapampangan blood at all can be
Kapampangan, which makes it all the more difficult to understand why
Ambeth mentions a possible Spanish relationship of Bonifacio (if such
actually existed). I think its more important that Bonifacio lived
in Tondo, although that doesn't necessarily make him Kampampangan.
If some family lived in Macabebe/Masantol for several generations, my
bet is that they are Kapampangan by choice regardless of ancestry. The
situation might be different in a big city like Angeles where there
is a large foreign population.

Yanapamu,
Pol

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

"Edwin N. Camaya" <e...@mudspring.uplb.edu.ph>

> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

> Luid Pol,

>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> > Maybe not, but you can claim they have Kapampangan ancestry. By the
> > same token, someone with no Kapampangan blood at all can be
> > Kapampangan, which makes it all the more difficult to understand why
> > Ambeth mentions a possible Spanish relationship of Bonifacio (if such
> > actually existed). I think its more important that Bonifacio lived
> > in Tondo, although that doesn't necessarily make him Kampampangan.

> [snip]

> > The
> > situation might be different in a big city like Angeles where there
> > is a large foreign population.
>

> Does this imply that you consider Tondo, with a large non-Kapampangan
> population at least since the beginning of the Spanish era, and now a
> largely-Tagalog district of the Tagalog city of Manila separated
> geographically from the main Kapampangan-speaking Region, more Kapampangan
> than Angeles City?
>

I was comparing Angeles to Macabebe/Masantol. From what I have
heard from Tondo residents up until several years ago is that the
district was still largely Kapampangan. Regarding Angeles City there
are large numbers of non-Kapampangan living there. Probably modern
Angeles is more metropolitan than Tondo of Bonifacio's time.
However, I still think that most persons who have family roots in
Angeles for a few generations would think of themselves as
Kapampangan.

[Armando Regala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Edwin asked Pol:

Does this imply that you consider Tondo, with a large non-Kapampangan
population at least since the beginning of the Spanish era, and now a
largely-Tagalog district of the Tagalog city of Manila separated
geographically from the main Kapampangan-speaking Region, more Kapampangan
than Angeles City?

I was born in Tondo 52 years ago and at that time there were still
many pockets of Kapampangan enclaves. However, because it is a
district within a Tagalog-speaking province/city and because Tondo is
a predominantly low to middle income area there was a steady influx
of new residents that made Tondo one of the most densely populated
areas in Manila. Today, many of my cousins and nephews and nieces
still living in Tondo either cannot speak Kapampangan or speak a
badly fractured-version at best.

Therefore, it is not at all inconceivable that even allowing for the
possibility that Bonifacio had Kapampangan roots that he considered
himself Tagalog and in fact the Republic that he conceived was named
Katagalugan, according to some references I have come across.

Mandy

Armando A.B. Regala
Personnel Services Office (Sexton Campus)
Dalhousie University
Halifax, N.S.
E-mail: arm...@tuns.ca
Phone No.: (902) 420-7752
Fax No.: (902) 492-0011

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid ka Pol,
What do you mean?
Mike

At 11:07 PM 9/29/97 -800, you wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid Mike,

>
>You wrote:
>>
>> Dear Ambeth,
>>
>> I sent a reply to you before but unfortunately it was sent to
the wrong
>> address.
>> I too am interested in the Spanish text which you speak of.
>> It may be so that Bonifacio's paternal grandfather is Spanish
(did I get
>> you right so far? Forgive me, I was absent from the list for sometime),
>> but are they Kapampangan Spanish? Like the Arastias of Lubao or Castelvis
>> of Tarlac? Like the Kapampangan Chinese of Guagua?
>> I may be wrong and my research inadequate, but as far as I've
discovered
>> among official Church records, the surname Bonifacio was limited to a few
>> families in Macabebe/Masantol around the mid-1700s. Then later on, the
>> name appeared on some lists in Hagonoy and Tondo...still traditional
>> Kapampangan spheres of influence.
>> Again I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me, the surname
>> Bonifacio by those times never appeared in the traditional Tagalog areas of
>> influence, namely Laguna and Batangas.
>> Is it not possible then that Andres Bonifacio's roots could be
Kapampangan
>> even if they were Spanish Kapampangans at that.
>>
>

>If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
>blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
>there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
>Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
>Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
>practically any other ethnic group for that matter.
>
>Yanapamu,
>Pol
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cong Marc and Cong Pol,
Amen to that. Ua, asabi na naya rin Edwin canacu ing topic aiti anti mu
rin qng disan yung consensus...

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 08:33 AM 9/30/97 -0400, Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:07:16 -800 Paul Kekai Manansala
><sac5...@saclink.csus.edu> writes:

>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>>If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
>>blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
>>there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
>>Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
>>Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
>>practically any other ethnic group for that matter.
>>
>>Yanapamu,
>>Pol
>

>Luid Pol and Mike,
>
>By the same token, not everyone who has a drop of Kapampangan blood
>running in his/her veins is Kapampangan, especially if that person,
>whether hero or villain, martyr or traitor, or rich or poor, does not
>identify himself/herself as Kapampangan.
>
>Therefore, we cannot claim as our own everyone who has an iota of
>Kapampangan ancestry. We cannot force anyone to identify himself/herself
>as Kapampangan either. To put it in the extreme, being born on
>Kapampangan soil and/or of Kapampangan ancestry do/does not a Kapampangan
>make.
>

>This issue was discussed a long time ago on the K-List and I think we
>arrived at the conclusion that one born on K soil and/or of K parents
>also needed to identify himself as K to be K.
>
>MARC
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid ca Edwin ampong Cong Pol,
Male tamu. Nung e ya mu memacbung ing Pinatubu at e la linicas queti ding
tau Baculud ampong San Fernando mipaliaring mebisaya nacami queti Angeles.
E na ya pa mu rin quelinguan Apung Sinucuan ing Angeles. Dapot macalungcut
la pin deng mapilan a businessman, officiales ampong cayanacan a lalaut da
yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang panga-Kapampangan.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 10:23 AM 10/1/97 +0800, Edwin N. Camaya wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid Pol,
>
>On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
>> Maybe not, but you can claim they have Kapampangan ancestry. By the
>> same token, someone with no Kapampangan blood at all can be
>> Kapampangan, which makes it all the more difficult to understand why
>> Ambeth mentions a possible Spanish relationship of Bonifacio (if such
>> actually existed). I think its more important that Bonifacio lived
>> in Tondo, although that doesn't necessarily make him Kampampangan.
>[snip]
>> The
>> situation might be different in a big city like Angeles where there
>> is a large foreign population.
>

>Does this imply that you consider Tondo, with a large non-Kapampangan
>population at least since the beginning of the Spanish era, and now a
>largely-Tagalog district of the Tagalog city of Manila separated
>geographically from the main Kapampangan-speaking Region, more Kapampangan
>than Angeles City?
>

>Edwin

[Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid ca Mike and Pol,

You'll have to forgive me if I don't share your pessimism about Angeles
remaining K. Nothwithstanding those "mapilan a businessman, officiales

ampong cayanacan a lalaut da yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang

panga-Kapampangan," I believe that Angeles will never lose its
Kapampangan identity and flavor. Remember that Angeles is right smack in
the middle of the Kapampangan region; it is not a border town like
Tarlac. In addition to that, take into consideration the recent influx
of Kapampangans from surrounding towns who are more Kapampangan than
Angelen~os and you have something like a blood transfusion. The economic
boom in Pampanga also helps because Kapampangans now have one less reason
to leave their homeland.

You could probably say that it is not a good measure of the population
mix in Angeles, but in Jan 97, when I went to mass at the Holy Rosary
Parish Church, everyone around me was Kapampangan. I heard nary a
conversation carried out in Tagalog, Bisaya, etc.

Take the case of Washington, DC. With the federal gov't in the hands of
the white majority, you would think that Washington, DC would be
predominantly white. But no, Washington, DC has always been a southern
city and up to now its population is 80% black. It's true that in the
northwest part of the city the population is 80% white (which is why it
is called the white ghetto), but even that is changing as more blacks are
improving their lot and can afford to live in the better parts of the
city.

Marc

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:17:57 +0800 siuala ding meangubie
<siu...@mozcom.com> writes:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>
>Luid ca Edwin ampong Cong Pol,
> Male tamu. Nung e ya mu memacbung ing Pinatubu at e la
>linicas queti ding
>tau Baculud ampong San Fernando mipaliaring mebisaya nacami queti
>Angeles.
>E na ya pa mu rin quelinguan Apung Sinucuan ing Angeles. Dapot
>macalungcut
>la pin deng mapilan a businessman, officiales ampong cayanacan a
>lalaut da
>yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang panga-Kapampangan.
>
>Siuala ding Meangubie

------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

siuala ding meangubie <siu...@mozcom.com>
wrote:

> >Pol wrote:
> >If we rejected every Kapampangan who had a drop of non-Kapampangan
> >blood there would be very few of us indeed. Using the same standard
> >there would be practically no "English" (Angles, Saxons, Normans,
> >Scots, French, Danes, Picts, Irish, etc.) or Russians (Slavs,
> >Mongols, Tatars, Polovstians, Germans, Scots, Kumans, etc.) or
> >practically any other ethnic group for that matter.
> >
> >Yanapamu,
> >Pol
> >

>

> Luid ka Pol,
> What do you mean?

Luid Mike at Kabalen,

Mike, even when the Spanish came, I'm of the impression that many
Kapampangans already had mixed blood (Bornean, Aeta, Ilokano,
etc.) This process continued during the Spanish period. It was not
one way either. The Kapampangan detachments in Manila and elsewhere
that existed for centuries undoubtedly left their genetic traces in those
places. There is no pure people in a biological sense, not even the
Japanese ;).

Kapampangan identity is more than biological descent. I consider it
interesting to know of anyone who has Kapampangan ancestry regardless
of what they consider themselves now. Not because these
people are still Kapampangan but because it gives me some idea of the
migrations of my people. Being Kapampangan is a cultural and
self-identification thing, in my opinion. I would never deny anyone
their Kapampangan-ness unless their claims appeared to have only a
political or other ulterior motive.

Yanapamu,
Pol

[Manolo Gatbonton]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cabalen,

Malyari nacu mong maki-ambula queca yo?

Oini ing canacung observacion careng mendatun Angeles a ibat careng
aliuang lugal. Iti base careng aca rungut cung tau ing milabas apulung
banua, a atakiran cu keti America. Potang abalu dang Kampamngan cu, agad
mag-identify lang Kapampangan la. Potang cutnan co apelyidu, e la
familiar deng soundings deng apelyidu da.

Base careng carelang mannerism ampong aliuang non-verbal
communications, caraklan, a hula cu la nung Ilocanu la, Pangasinan o
Visaya. Mga 80 % of the time, tutud cu ku king hula cu :)) Ing peca
favoritu cu careti ing caluguran cung Orlan Fontanilla. He is very
fluent in Kapampangan, mipapacaili cu caya 'niang minuna uling mas
gagamitan no reng aliuang terminung e na usually'ng magagamit.

Nanu mo ing relevance na niti? a yung cutang.

Para canacu, ing panaquit cu, dacal mu rin a bisang maging Kapampangan
by choice. Ala lang dayang K, and yet they voluntarily embrace our
culture. Mebiasa lang mamangan buru, pati palmura K :)), at aliua pa.
Balu cu deng numbers da, e la significant para apansin tala. Para
canacu, ma'ulaga iti

Ngeni, panga-ras keng business, ing panakit ku, maging multi-lingual ya
ing Angeles, calupa ning Tarlac, nung nuarain a caraniwan namung akakit
ing tindero biasang yang atlu o apat a salita. Iti, e ya mu cabud unique
quing Tarlac. King Singapore, at Istanbul, macanian mu rin ing o
observahan cu.

MIparayu ne atang masyadu cang Bonifacio ne po?
'Niang mumuna atin cung theory a y Boni atin dayang Italian uling prefix
na ning lagiu na "cio"
Peo 'niang y pronounce ke ing king Italian, matsura yang paquiramdaman,
caya inabandon que ing cacung theory.

Yanapamu

Manolo

Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco wrote:

> Luid ca Mike and Pol,
>
> You'll have to forgive me if I don't share your pessimism about Angeles
> remaining K. Nothwithstanding those "mapilan a businessman, officiales
> ampong cayanacan a lalaut da yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang
> panga-Kapampangan," I believe that Angeles will never lose its
> Kapampangan identity and flavor.

------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Kekai Manansala]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kayu kabalen,

> From: VSibal <vsi...@erols.com>
> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> <snip>

> I would never deny anyone
> > their Kapampangan-ness unless their claims appeared to have only a
> > political or other ulterior motive.
> >
> > Yanapamu,
> > Pol
>

> Luid Pol,
>
> I will beg to differ with you in this case where "you" judge anyone
> about their Kapampangan-ness. Everyone has their own interpretation of
> their own identity for whatever reason. Instead, we may challenge their
> sincerity and motive.
>
> It is as much as giving respect for who they think they are as much as
> we want to be recognized for what we want to be accepted as.
>

That's basically the same thing I was saying, Vic...;)

Yanapamu,
Pol

[Marc Nepo]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Author: Dennis Pacia <Fun...@aol.com> at Internet-Express
Date: 10/2/97 12:45 PM

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Pol, Mike, Marc, Edwin, Mandy, Manny & DLR,

As of now we can not really prove Bonifacio's Kapampangan ancestry until an
extensive research is conducted but here are some interesting facts about
Tondo which was once believe to be a bastion of Kapampangan militia if not a
flourishing trading site.

1. Tondo's ancient name was "tundun" suggesting a Kapampangan origin and
possibly an ancient Kapampangan settlement before and after the arrival of
the Spaniards.
2. The Tondo-Macabebe connection suggests a strong bond between the two
tribes. This was evident by the fact that both Rajah's Lakandula and Soliman
secured the help of the King of Macabebe instead of their neighboring Tagalog
counterparts from the south. Since this is quite unreasonable, doesn't this
also suggest that both Rajah's Lakandula and Soliman were Kapampangan?
3. Rajah Soliman and the King of Macabebe could be one and the same person
since both were believed to have died in the Battle of Bangkusay (that is
according to some history books, I stand corrected).
4. The late Pres. Macapagal was claiming ancestry from Lakandula, while I do
not have evidence to trace back Macapagal's claim it is interesting to
consider such assertion in this inquiry.
5. The surnames Gatdula, Dula and Soliman were recorded many times in the
vital records of Macabebe and Masantol.
6. Could it be Lubao was a subject of the King of Macabebe at that time
(including Tondo)? Is the royal title "Rajah" ranked higher than the title
"king"? On the other hand, the title "king" could also mean "chieftain".
7. Until the 70's most of the local hoodlums there were believe to be
Kapampangan, Asiong Salonga (from Sn. Juan, Macabebe), Mianong Magat
(Balibago), et al.

The Bonifacio Kapampangan ancestry allegation is indeed hypothetical but
wouldn't it be better for now to prove it rather than disprove it?

Dennis

[VSibal]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Very intriguing.

Vic

[VSibal]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:

<snip>
I would never deny anyone
> their Kapampangan-ness unless their claims appeared to have only a
> political or other ulterior motive.
>
> Yanapamu,
> Pol

Luid Pol,

I will beg to differ with you in this case where "you" judge anyone
about their Kapampangan-ness. Everyone has their own interpretation of
their own identity for whatever reason. Instead, we may challenge their
sincerity and motive.

It is as much as giving respect for who they think they are as much as
we want to be recognized for what we want to be accepted as.

Vic

[Edwin N. Camaya]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid kabalen,

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Armando Regala wrote:

> I was born in Tondo 52 years ago and at that time there were still
> many pockets of Kapampangan enclaves. However, because it is a
> district within a Tagalog-speaking province/city and because Tondo is
> a predominantly low to middle income area there was a steady influx
> of new residents that made Tondo one of the most densely populated
> areas in Manila. Today, many of my cousins and nephews and nieces
> still living in Tondo either cannot speak Kapampangan or speak a
> badly fractured-version at best.

The strong Kapampangan presence as far as we know dates back at least to the
beginning of the Spanish era (although there is debate on whether Tondo was
originally Kapampangan or whether it was already mixed Kapampangan-Tagalog
from the beginning). By the first census conducted by the American
authorities in 1903, Tondo had become mainly Tagalog, although Kapampangans
were by far the most important non-Tagalog group. When the last census
which gave figures for individual Maniala districts was conducted in
1970, the number of Waray (Samar-Leyte) speakers was nearly the same as
that of the Kapampangan speakers. Because Tondo was near the 'pier',
new arrivals from the Visayas made their home close to their first port
of entry.

Tondo, however, has a special place in Kapampangan history.
AFAIK (and perhaps K. Mandy can confirm this), Tondo's Kapampangan
community constantly replenished itself by marrying in the K-region.
(apparently, however, the overwhelming linguistic pressure from Tagalog
is proving too strong for it in recent years). Many well-known
Kapampangans were born in or resided in Tondo, including radio
personalities like Rey Langit and the late Paeng Yabut. The writer
Aurelio Tolentino made his home and spent his last years there - it
was in Tondo where Prof. Rosalina Icban-Castro interviewed Tolentino's
daughter for her 1981 book *Literature of the Pampangos*. Tondo was
also where writer Bienvenido Santos grew up (one noted local poet says that
the late Santos was only one of three Filipinos most qualified
for the Nobel Prize, the other being National Artist Nick Joaquin and the
third, N.V.M. Gonzales).

Edwin

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

At 11:24 AM 10/2/97 -0400, Manolo Gatbonton wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid Cabalen,

>
Ing peca favoritu cu careti ing caluguran cung Orlan Fontanilla. He is very
>fluent in Kapampangan, mipapacaili cu caya 'niang minuna uling mas
>gagamitan no reng aliuang terminung e na usually'ng magagamit.
>
> Nanu mo ing relevance na niti? a yung cutang.
>
>Para canacu, ing panaquit cu, dacal mu rin a bisang maging Kapampangan
>by choice. Ala lang dayang K, and yet they voluntarily embrace our
>culture. Mebiasa lang mamangan buru, pati palmura K :)), at aliua pa.
>Balu cu deng numbers da, e la significant para apansin tala. Para
>canacu, ma'ulaga iti

Luid ca Cong Manny,
Dacal na cu mu rin aquilalang macanian, lalu na careng mengatua nang dayu
queti Angeles. Malugud ta la ngan tatanggapan. Dapot aliua ing panaun a
disnan da... Aliua na ya rin ing panaun ngeti. Canita prestigious ya pa
mu ring gagamitan ing Kapampangan qng lugar tamu... Dapot ngeni grabi ing
demoralization lalu na careng cayanacan. Dacal a anac a picarine de ing
amanu da... baduy ya mo canu. Nung macanian ing panamdaman da reng bayu
tamung bisita careng mismu tamung cayanacan... Obat paipagal da ya pang
paquibaluan ing amanu tamung sisuan....? Nung ila mismu acaquit dang
picarine ta ya, nanung sangcan dang luguran de at maquiagum la quecatamu?
I tatang cu na yang caracal a cacaluguran a businessman a Chinese a ing
preferred language da Kapampangan aguiampang parapareu lang miyayabe a
Isic. Ngeni deng bayung saltang Chinese qng Angeles mag-pakaPilipinu la
(Tagalog) quesa qng magpa-Kapampangan la.
Macatula pa, atin cung aquilala Munoz, Nueva Ecija a third generation
Chinese, Ong So Hu ya laguiu. Metung la careng macualtang businessmen
carin. Quitang cu nu la China reng roots na.... Ing pequibat na, Capas,
Tarlac. Kapampangan kami ngana.
Yacu mu rin mipalaut nacu...

Yanapaiti,

Siuala ding Meangubie

>Yanapamu
>
>Manolo
>
>Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco wrote:
>> Luid ca Mike and Pol,
>>
>> You'll have to forgive me if I don't share your pessimism about Angeles
>> remaining K. Nothwithstanding those "mapilan a businessman, officiales
>> ampong cayanacan a lalaut da yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang
>> panga-Kapampangan," I believe that Angeles will never lose its
>> Kapampangan identity and flavor.
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Yes I agree.

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 09:50 AM 10/2/97 -800, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>self-identification thing, in my opinion. I would never deny anyone

>their Kapampangan-ness unless their claims appeared to have only a
>political or other ulterior motive.
>
>Yanapamu,
>Pol
>

[siuala ding meangubie]

< K a p a m p a n g a n >

Luid Cong Marc,
Iniang sinimba ca canita, deng canta qng misa Tagalug la o Kapampangan la?
Mecad suerti ya ing parochia na ngeni ning Santo Rosario queti Angeles at
i Msgr. Lansang macaluma yang Kapampangan... Ing sasaingsing na mu pin
deting choir nang masias a buntuc a mas aluluguran dong cacanta reng dalit
a Tagalug uli mo canung 'mas solemn' la. Ha!
Ing Parochia L&S mediu mas masuerti ya pauli ding dacal lang linicas tau
Baculud pati na ing pari ampo'pa reng taladalit nang linicas carin.
Dapot qng parochia ning Santa Maria queti Balibago ala la canung misang
Kapampangan...dapot atin lang misang Tagalug balang alas diez.
Ing misa naman a papalague da qng cable balang domingo a cua mu rin qng
Santo Rosario...Tagalug ya.
Masane cayu canacu, sadia cung 'peste-mystic' ngara pin deng cayabe cu.
Dapot maniuala cu mu ring ali ya pa man milaco panga-Kapampangan ing
Angeles/Kuliat... At nananu ta pang misasabi ampong mipamalac queti
K-list nung pamie ta ya mung misan ing metung a daque ning
Kapampangan...busal ya pa canita.
Dapot nasa cu sa Cong Marc acasabi mu la naman reng acacataltalan cung
officiales ampong consejales queti ciudad tamu lalu na i Susan Pineda
ampo'pa i Alex Cauguiran. "Pilipinu tamu pamu canu bayu tamu Kapampangan."
Maniaman lang ca-istoria Cong Marc, tutu man. Cadua mu naman maniaman
caistoria queti deng cayanacan a mag-banda. Magaling la pa careng magaling
dapot contran da ca nung cutang mu ot e la mag-compose qng amanu ta mung
sisuan... Barriotic ta mu canu.
Kapa mu pala, pota eracatamu acua deng aliua, aiti linauan cu yang baguia:
Ali ta na la man lilicas o cacauani deng dayu... Ing puntu cu mu, bayu ta
la luguran deng aliua, luguran ta ya pa mu ing sarili tamu. Bayu tamu
tanggap bisita, ngara pin deng mangatua, maglinis ta pa mung sala. Bayu ta
ya paquialaman ing sisiang ning casumangid tamung bale, pacabsian ta la pa
mu reng mismu tang catubale.

O yanapaiti Cong Marc,

Siuala ding Meangubie

At 09:35 AM 10/2/97 -0400, Nepo, Marc & Lou [nee] Tanhueco wrote:
> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>

>Luid ca Mike and Pol,
>
>You'll have to forgive me if I don't share your pessimism about Angeles
>remaining K. Nothwithstanding those "mapilan a businessman, officiales
>ampong cayanacan a lalaut da yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang
>panga-Kapampangan," I believe that Angeles will never lose its

>Kapampangan identity and flavor. Remember that Angeles is right smack in
>the middle of the Kapampangan region; it is not a border town like
>Tarlac. In addition to that, take into consideration the recent influx
>of Kapampangans from surrounding towns who are more Kapampangan than
>Angelen~os and you have something like a blood transfusion. The economic
>boom in Pampanga also helps because Kapampangans now have one less reason
>to leave their homeland.
>
>You could probably say that it is not a good measure of the population
>mix in Angeles, but in Jan 97, when I went to mass at the Holy Rosary
>Parish Church, everyone around me was Kapampangan. I heard nary a
>conversation carried out in Tagalog, Bisaya, etc.
>
>Take the case of Washington, DC. With the federal gov't in the hands of
>the white majority, you would think that Washington, DC would be
>predominantly white. But no, Washington, DC has always been a southern
>city and up to now its population is 80% black. It's true that in the
>northwest part of the city the population is 80% white (which is why it
>is called the white ghetto), but even that is changing as more blacks are
>improving their lot and can afford to live in the better parts of the
>city.
>
>Marc
>
>On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:17:57 +0800 siuala ding meangubie
><siu...@mozcom.com> writes:

>> < K a p a m p a n g a n >
>>

>>Luid ca Edwin ampong Cong Pol,
>> Male tamu. Nung e ya mu memacbung ing Pinatubu at e la
>>linicas queti ding
>>tau Baculud ampong San Fernando mipaliaring mebisaya nacami queti
>>Angeles.
>>E na ya pa mu rin quelinguan Apung Sinucuan ing Angeles. Dapot
>>macalungcut

>>la pin deng mapilan a businessman, officiales ampong cayanacan a
>>lalaut da
>>yang pilit ing Angeles qng cayang panga-Kapampangan.
>>
>>Siuala ding Meangubie