A posteriori IAL conlangs
Andrew Nowicki
conlang. How should we choose its vocabulary? Perhaps
we should borrow it from the most popular languages.
Mandarin Chinese words may be too difficult to pronounce,
so the vocabulary may be borrowed proportionately from
the remaining most popular languages: English, 19%,
Spanish 18%, Hindi/Urdu 15%, Arabic 12%, Bengali 11%,
Portuguese 9%, Russian 9%, and Japanese 7%.
It would be very difficult to persuade speakers of other
languages (Mandarin, German, etc.) that their languages
are so inferior that none of their words should be
included in the new conlang. There are so many spoken
languages that combining all of them into a single
conlang and resolving all the linguistic conflicts is
not feasible. This political problem is so severe that
a posteriori conlang cannot be universally accepted as
the international auxiliary language.
A priori (artificial) conlangs have the advantage of
being politically and culturally neutral. Some of them
are better than others. At present Ygyde conlang is the
best potential international auxiliary language because
it is easy to pronounce, easy to understand, and easier
to learn than any other language. Unfortunately, Ygyde
is not finished yet. Its vocabulary has only 2700 words.
In my opinion 6000 word vocabulary would suffice for
general purpose conversation. If you are a serious IAL
conlanger, try to beat Ygyde -- try to make a conlang
that is easier to learn than Ygyde. If you can't beat
Ygyde, help make it a mature language. Coining new
compound words from a limited number of root words (180)
resembles solving a crossword puzzle. It is fun work.
Ygyde basics: http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/ygyde/ygyde.htm
Dictionary: http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/ygyde/ygyded.htm
Grammar: http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/ygyde/ygydeg.htm
Don
from scratch," rather than basing it on something that already exists.
All conlangs are artificial to some extent, but some have more
similarity to existing vocabulary and grammar than others. There is,
apparently, a direct relationship between the amount of such similarity
and ease of learning.
Why would you exclude Mandarin from an a posteriori language? I don't
agree that the words are hard to pronounce. The grammar is also very
simple. The only difficult thing about Mandarin is the writing, which
one would not need to carry over into the conlang.
We already have several IALs that are much easier to learn (and much
less of a burden on the memory) than Ygyde. They have also been
developed to the point of making them really practical and useful. The
list is already pretty long, but would certainly include Esperanto,
Interlingua, and their derivatives. The only drawback attached to these
languages (a not-insuperable one, I think) is that they are pan-European
rather than pan-Terran languages.
I don't have to try to invent a conlang that is easier to learn than
Ygyde--I've already done it (as have many, many others). My language,
Almensk, currently has a vocabulary of 4,800 words, and will eventually
have a basic vocabulary of approximately 9,000 words. It looks a lot
like Scandinavian (which gives it a certain kind of neutrality, I
guess), but builds on knowledge that the many speakers of English,
either natively or as a second language, already have. I believe that
this last is something that any successful IAL candidate will have to
do.
--Don
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/almensk
Gerard van Wilgen
"Andrew Nowicki" <and...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:41C6F93F...@nospam.com...
> Suppose that we were going to make a new a posteriori
> conlang. How should we choose its vocabulary? Perhaps
> we should borrow it from the most popular languages.
> Mandarin Chinese words may be too difficult to pronounce,
That is a meaningless statement. Mandarin is not difficult to pronounce for
native speakers of Mandarin, and neither for speakers of other Chinese
languages I suppose (many of those languages have a more complicated system
of tones than Mandarin). Other speakers of tonal languages, such as the
Thai, may not find Mandarin pronounciation difficult either.
> so the vocabulary may be borrowed proportionately from
> the remaining most popular languages: English, 19%,
> Spanish 18%, Hindi/Urdu 15%, Arabic 12%, Bengali 11%,
> Portuguese 9%, Russian 9%, and Japanese 7%.
If ease of pronunciation for a large percentage of the world population
would be a consideration, only Japanese with a somewhat simplified phonology
would qualify. All the others are very difficult to pronounce for many
people, especially people in South East Asia.
By the way, what happened to French? Too difficult to pronounce, or not
popular enough?
> It would be very difficult to persuade speakers of other
> languages (Mandarin, German, etc.) that their languages
> are so inferior that none of their words should be
> included in the new conlang.
Indeed, how are you going to convince a German that for most people in the
world a word like "Fisch" [fiS] is far more difficult to pronounce than
"fish" [fIS]?
Gerard van Wilgen
--
http://www.majstro.com/Web/Majstro/sdict.php?gebrTaal=eng
Multilingual translation dictionary
Andrew Nowicki
> We already have several IALs that are much easier to learn (and much
> less of a burden on the memory) than Ygyde. They have also been
> developed to the point of making them really practical and useful. The
> list is already pretty long, but would certainly include Esperanto,
> Interlingua, and their derivatives...
When I look at Esperanto words, I can guess the meaning
of a few percent of them. The rest is a mystery. When
I look at compound Ygyde words, I can guess the meaning
of all of them. (Maybe because I made most of them.) I
do not have good memory, but one reading is enough for me
to memorize the compound Ygyde word for ever. If you cannot
guess the exact meaning of a compound Ygyde word, at least
you get rough idea of what it may mean. For example, if
the last syllable of the compound Ygyde word is "by," you
know it is some kind of food, so it is safe to eat.
Ygyde is not just another conlang but the equivalent of
a nuclear weapon in a world of bow and arrow conlangs.
Phonetic Picture - Writing (www.lautbildschrift.de) is
cute, but it looks like road signs and lacks means to
express abstract ideas. I cannot imagine how it can evolve
into a real language.
> I don't have to try to invent a conlang that is easier to learn than
> Ygyde--I've already done it (as have many, many others). My language,
> Almensk, currently has a vocabulary of 4,800 words, and will eventually
> have a basic vocabulary of approximately 9,000 words...
Almensk is not posted on the Internet, so it is hard
to judge its qualities.
Andrew Nowicki
> If ease of pronunciation for a large percentage of the
> world population would be a consideration, only
> Japanese with a somewhat simplified phonology
> would qualify. All the others are very difficult to
> pronounce for many people, especially people in South
> East Asia.
Good point. Another advantage of Japanese is that
many of its words are compound words. On the other
hand... I cannot imagine Chinese people adopting
Japanese language as IAL.
> By the way, what happened to French? Too difficult to
> pronounce, or not popular enough?
I took data from Language Today, volume 2, 1997.
Native speakers of the most popular languages, in
millions: Mandarin Chinese = 1200, English = 330,
Spanish = 300, Hindi/Urdu = 250, Arabic = 200,
Bengali = 185, Portuguese = 160, Russian = 160,
Japanese = 125, German = 100.
French has more secondary speakers than native
speakers.
Paul O. BARTLETT
> When I look at Esperanto words, I can guess the meaning
> of a few percent of them. The rest is a mystery. When
> I look at compound Ygyde words, I can guess the meaning
> of all of them.
This is nonsense. We have already discussed this on another forum.
It is *not* possible to guess the meanings of Ygyde words. They are a
grab bag of fiat decisions on your part.
--
Paul Bartlett
PGP key info in message headers
dana.nutter
Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Andrew Nowicki wrote (excerpt):
>
> > When I look at Esperanto words, I can guess the meaning
> > of a few percent of them. The rest is a mystery. When
> > I look at compound Ygyde words, I can guess the meaning
> > of all of them.
>
> This is nonsense. We have already discussed this on another
forum.
> It is *not* possible to guess the meanings of Ygyde words. They are
a
> grab bag of fiat decisions on your part.
Agreed. I've looked at Ygyde and while it's an interesting conlang, it
is definitely not well-suited for use as an IAL as the author has been
boldly claiming. I couldn't begin to guess the meanings of any of the
words or morphemes in Ygyde without considerable amounts of study. In
fact, this appears to be one of the most difficult IAL designs that
I've seen.
Johnd Fstone
> Suppose that we were going to make a new a posteriori
> conlang. How should we choose its vocabulary? Perhaps
> we should borrow it from the most popular languages.
> Mandarin Chinese words may be too difficult to pronounce,
> so the vocabulary may be borrowed proportionately from
> the remaining most popular languages: English, 19%,
> Spanish 18%, Hindi/Urdu 15%, Arabic 12%, Bengali 11%,
> Portuguese 9%, Russian 9%, and Japanese 7%.
Hindi-Urdu has twenty stop phonemes--five points of articulation,
voiced/voiceless, aspirated/unaspirated. Arabic has pharyngeal
fricatives and other "guttural" sounds. Russian has lots of consonant
clusters and unpredictable stress.
Why is Mandarin considered harder to pronounce than they are? Because
it is a tone language. It only has four tones, but lots of people
know deep down that "tone languages are hard" and so won't consider
learning even the simplest tone system.
[...]
--
personally, I've never been able to sip a drop of tea without causing
myself to vomit everything I'd eaten during the 24 preceding hours
-- Javier BF
scall...@mailexpire.com
> of a few percent of them. The rest is a mystery. When
> I look at compound Ygyde words, I can guess the meaning
> of all of them. (Maybe because I made most of them.)
Yes, maybe??? Esperanto is far more guessable for someone who is
familiar with a romance language. (Which isn't such a big deal, really)
When americans or frenchmen say 'everybody should learn our language',
it's indeed quite arrogant, since they don't appreciate the uphill
challenge it is to learn ANY language other than the one(s) you grew up
with. However, that is NOTHING to the arrogance of someone who makes up
a language of his own, and then expect others to learn it. So you want
to have an advantage on the entire world? Zamenhof got away with
wanting that. Schleyer sort of got away with it, but his arrogance got
Volapük in the end.
> Ygyde is not just another conlang but the equivalent of
> a nuclear weapon in a world of bow and arrow conlangs.
Wow! If self confidence is all it takes, we'll all be speaking Ygyde
ten years from now ;-)
Andrew Nowicki
> Why is Mandarin considered harder to pronounce than
> they are? Because it is a tone language. It only
> has four tones, but lots of people know deep down
> that "tone languages are hard" and so won't consider
> learning even the simplest tone system.
Don wrote:
> Why would you exclude Mandarin from an a posteriori
> language? I don't agree that the words are hard to
> pronounce. The grammar is also very simple. The only
> difficult thing about Mandarin is the writing, which
> one would not need to carry over into the conlang.
Maybe a tonal version of Ygyde would be better in a
sense that it would have more precise compound words?
There are two options:
Tonal words. If every compound word has 3
different tones, we can double the number of
root words. (360 instead of 180).
Tonal root words. If every root word has 3
different tones, we can triple the number
of root words. (540 instead of 180).
On the other hand, nearly all non-tonal speakers are
biased against tonal languages. Is there any way to
overcome this bias?
Andrew Nowicki
> When I look at Esperanto words, I can guess the meaning
> of a few percent of them. The rest is a mystery. When
> I look at compound Ygyde words, I can guess the meaning
> of all of them.
Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
> This is nonsense.
This is true. I am not Paul O. BARTLETT.
Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
> It is *not* possible to guess the meanings of Ygyde
> words. They are a grab bag of fiat decisions on your part.
If you do not like my definitions, make your own Ygyde
words, or try to improve Phonetic Picture - Writing
(www.lautbildschrift.de), or try to invent yet another
auxlang that is easy to learn. At any rate, forget
about euroclones -- they are too difficult to learn
and will be rejected for political reasons.
Andrew Nowicki
> I've looked at Ygyde and while it's an interesting
> conlang, it is definitely not well-suited for use as
> an IAL as the author has been boldly claiming. I
> couldn't begin to guess the meanings of any of the
> words or morphemes in Ygyde without considerable
> amounts of study. In fact, this appears to be one of
> the most difficult IAL designs that I've seen.
This is a vague and inaccurate statement. Anyone who
has IQ level of 100 can guess the meaning of the
following Ygyde compound words:
meat = opaby = "noun - anatomical part of a multicellular animal - food"
meter = onule = "noun distance unit"
moron = ysamupy = "noun slow mental person"
mother = ymapo = "noun feminine parent"
newton = onyle = "noun force unit"
machine oil = obujegu = "noun slippery machine liquid"
pen = odyki = "noun text rod"
pocket = ofiza = "noun garment container"
sandpaper = odyfewe = "noun sharp powder sheet"
screw = odywisu = "noun sharp helix fastener"
outer space = obage = "noun astronomical object environment"
spider = ocybo = "noun net animal"
spy = ynija = "noun secret craftsman"
sunglasses = ybejifi = "noun atmospheric optical garment"
plastic surgery = ywelici = "noun pretty medical manipulation"
electric switch = ylyka = "noun electric valve"
tape measure = onuwa = "noun distance tape"
theologian = ynaco = "noun religious expert"
topology = okone = "noun shape science"
tornado = ybewi = "noun atmospheric helix"
toy = owapusi = "noun happy child tool"
vagina = omazipa = "noun - feminine - hole - anatomical part of a multicellular animal"
to vomit = utiby = "verb outer food"
wage = onoga = "noun work money"
weapon = otaje = "noun war machine"
wedding = opomo = "noun parent fusion"
weld = ypymo = "noun burning fusion"
wood = obeky = "noun - plant - rigid solid"
Some compound Ygyde words are much more arbitrary.
Names of flora and fauna are especially hard to
guess. Some conlangers argue that a compound language
like Ygyde should have more than 180 root words to
make more precise compound words. This idea does
not appeal to me because the additional root words
would be gathering dust and the compound words would
be much longer. (You cannot squeeze more meanings
into two-letter root words than 180 unless you add
more letters to Ygyde alphabet.)
The main point of my original post is that euroclones
and their ilk are relicts of colonialism. Ygyde is
best of the rest, so it deserves a close examination.
Of course, euroclone supporters never die, they just
fade away...
scall...@mailexpire.com
a posteriori conlang cannot be universally accepted as
the international auxiliary language."
Universal acceptance faces a lot of hard problems. Agreeing on the base
for words would probably not be one of them, It seems to me that only
language tinkerers worry about that.
"A priori (artificial) conlangs have the advantage of
being politically and culturally neutral. Some of them
are better than others. At present Ygyde conlang is the
best potential international auxiliary language because
it is easy to pronounce, easy to understand, and easier
to learn than any other language. "
A bold statement, especially considering that your next line is
"Unfortunately, Ygyde is not finished yet. "
Since just about all conlangs are not finished "yet", perhaps it would
be better to wait and see? I think I'll wait until the number of fluent
speakers reaches four digits. Until then I won't trust it as viable.
scall...@mailexpire.com
for longer than esperanto, although there probably never were more than
a handful. Of course, they keep running into the same problems. An emu
is not simply a "big bird" - I see you have already run into this
problem with botanical and animal names.
Also, similar concepts are more important to distinguish than wildly
different ones. If the word for lion looks like the word for kitchen
sink, that's hardly a problem because context will usually show what
you're talking about. Mixing up words that almost, but not quite, mean
the same, can be a lot more dangerous. I suppose there are a lot of
"noun white powder" in your kitchen.
Dewey's good for libraries, not for human communication
(in much the same way that predicate logic is good for computers, not
for human communication)
As to your IQ comment, if your strategy for getting adherents is
insulting them, I think I must revise my estimates for the viability of
your language even more...
scall...@mailexpire.com
> about euroclones -- they are too difficult to learn
> and will be rejected for political reasons.
An "Euroclone" (I assume you are counting esperanto as one) has been
more successful than all others combined. Yes, the EU parliament voted
it down, but even getting it on the ballot in the first place (and
getting significant support!) was a feat no other designed language
will ever come close to making.
Political rejection is just one of a horde of problems your language
will never reach. It's a bit like worrying how the toilets should work
in your home made space shuttle.
As for the learning difficulties, you're pretty confident when speaking
about the learning difficulties of a language you got to design
yourself. I, on the other hand, don't have that privilege withe E-o and
yet I find it very easy to learn. Suprisingly, so do chinese and
japanese people - perhaps they understand better than us that language
learning is intrisically hard, since they don't have the benefit of a
large number of closely related languages like we have in the west.
Johnd Fstone
> dana.nutter wrote:
>
> > I've looked at Ygyde and while it's an interesting
> > conlang, it is definitely not well-suited for use as
> > an IAL as the author has been boldly claiming. I
> > couldn't begin to guess the meanings of any of the
> > words or morphemes in Ygyde without considerable
> > amounts of study. In fact, this appears to be one of
> > the most difficult IAL designs that I've seen.
Like any words, they can be learned as whole words, disregarding the
idiomatic compounds. But Ygyde still seems difficult, because the
words seem so similar. Also, the contrast between <y> [I] and <i> [i]
is not very international, is an asymmetry in the vowel system, and
even though the distinction exists in English, I bet even English
speakers would have trouble with it word-finally, especially since the
next word invariably starts with a vowel.
> This is a vague and inaccurate statement. Anyone who
> has IQ level of 100 can guess the meaning of the
> following Ygyde compound words:
If that's true, then I don't have an IQ of 100.
> meat = opaby = "noun - anatomical part of a multicellular animal -
> food"
Meat is flesh. This definition of meat would seem to include powdered
unicorn horn used in cooking.
> meter = onule = "noun distance unit"
I would take this to mean "distance unit". It doesn't specify the
systeme international.
> moron = ysamupy = "noun slow mental person"
Does this mean someone who learns somewhat slowly, or someone who is
mentally retarded?
> mother = ymapo = "noun feminine parent"
OK, but "female parent" might be better.
> newton = onyle = "noun force unit"
This means "force unit". And don't you think it's possible to have an
IQ of 100 or greater without studying physics?
> machine oil = obujegu = "noun slippery machine liquid"
I guess so.
> pen = odyki = "noun text rod"
Tex rod = a line of text?
> pocket = ofiza = "noun garment container"
Garment container = anything that contains a garment. A dresser
drawer. A clothes hamper.
> sandpaper = odyfewe = "noun sharp powder sheet"
I doubt many people think of powder as sharp. Powder sounds much
finer than sand.
> screw = odywisu = "noun sharp helix fastener"
I think it would take a while to puzzle this out.
> outer space = obage = "noun astronomical object environment"
OK.
> spider = ocybo = "noun net animal"
Net animal = netizen?
> spy = ynija = "noun secret craftsman"
Those secret and conspiratorial Masons!
> sunglasses = ybejifi = "noun atmospheric optical garment"
Would take a while to puzzle out.
> plastic surgery = ywelici = "noun pretty medical manipulation"
Might never be figured out. Who thinks of medical manipulation
*itself* as pretty?
> electric switch = ylyka = "noun electric valve"
Electric valve = vacuum tube?
> tape measure = onuwa = "noun distance tape"
OK.
> theologian = ynaco = "noun religious expert"
I guess that depends on what expert means.
> topology = okone = "noun shape science"
Shape science = morphology?
> tornado = ybewi = "noun atmospheric helix"
I don't think that's obvious. The phrase "atmospheric helix" might
sound like something invisible and mysterious in the air that only
scientists know about.
> toy = owapusi = "noun happy child tool"
Happy child tool = Prozac?
> vagina = omazipa = "noun - feminine - hole - anatomical part of a
> multicellular animal"
Yeah. Even if you have an IQ of 100+, you might have to think "How
about nostrils? No, men have those, too." but eventually you'd come
around to the vagina.
> to vomit = utiby = "verb outer food"
Yeah, I guess urine and feces aren't food anymore. (But "food from
dogs" is still a funny phrase.)
> wage = onoga = "noun work money"
OK.
> weapon = otaje = "noun war machine"
But weapons can exist without war. I don't see why war should get its
own morpheme and weapon shouldn't.
> wedding = opomo = "noun parent fusion"
But partners in marriage aren't necessarily parents, any more than are
partners in the "fusion" called sexual intercourse.
> weld = ypymo = "noun burning fusion"
Not obvious.
> wood = obeky = "noun - plant - rigid solid"
Not obvious and I don't want to think about it anymore.
[...]
--
You're a Waldorf salad. -- Cole Porter
Andrew Nowicki
that they are not cute.
Lilipu (http://ca.geocities.com/vixcafe/lilipu/vocab.html)
and Toki Pona (http://www.tokipona.org/nimi.html)
are cute because they sound soft.
Examples of Lilipu words: vumu, muvu, pava, kulu.
Examples of Toki Pona words: akesi, ali, jaki, nimi.
Lilipu sounds exceptionally well because its
alphabet has only 3 vowels and 5 consonants:
a, i, u, k, p, m, l, v.
Phonetic Picture - Writing is cute because its
pictures look cute.
All these cute conlangs were made very recently,
are far from complete, and yet they are just as
popular as much older and more complete conlangs.
(Here is the list of the most popular conlangs:
http://www.langmaker.com/db/mdl_pop100_2004.htm)
The popularity of Lilipu, Toki Pona, and Phonetic
Picture - Writing proves that cuteness does matter.
It would take linguistic genius to figure out
how to make large vocabulary of compound words
that are short and sound cute. If you make random
words rather than compound words the task is much
easier.
Lilipu has a "syllabary"
(http://ca.geocities.com/vixcafe/lilipu/syllabary.html)
made of 3x6=18 syllables. At present the longest
Lilipu words have 3 syllables. All its words are random,
so there is a maximum of 18^3=5832 words made of
3 syllables. The practicable maximum may be smaller
to avoid words that sound alike. Lilipu vocabulary
has 1600 words. If its vocabulary could grow to
about 20,000 words, Lilipu would probably kill all
euroclones in one generation. Unfortunately, such
a big vocabulary would require long, 4-syllable
words, which are not cute.
Phonetic Picture - Writing is a perfect way to
describe simple things, but it fails to describe
complex ideas. So far it has no verbs, adjectives,
tenses, of prepositions. How could someone define
verb "to lubricate" in Phonetic Picture - Writing?
It would probably take a picture of a cogwheel, a
picture of a bottle, and a hint that this is a
verb rather than a noun or an adjective.
Suppose that cogwheel = kifipisi, and that
bottle = omimikineje, and that it takes one more
letter to indicate the verb. The verb "to lubricate"
has 20 letters! Now let us compare it with Ygyde:
to lubricate = ubugu = "verb slippery liquid"
Only 5 letters and its meaning is more obvious!
As you can see, these cute conlangs cannot aspire
to the auxlang status, but they are interesting
in a sense that they may inspire open minded
auxlangers.
ARE THERE ANY OPEN MINDED AUXLANGERS HERE???
Andrew Nowicki
> Like any words, they can be learned as whole words,
> disregarding the idiomatic compounds. But Ygyde
> still seems difficult, because the words seem so similar.
They may seem similar because most nouns begin with
letter "y," which sounds strange to English speaker.
This is a matter of cuteness and can be solved by
changing Short Ygyde so that the leading y in
compound words is optional. This change would upset
proper names and variables, which at present
begin with consonants.
Examples of changed words:
Standard Ygyde == Short Ygyde
book = ydedi == dedi = "noun big publication"
boulder = ydebafa == debafa = "noun big geological ball"
brain = ymupa == mupa = "noun mental anatomical..."
bribe = yniga == niga = "noun secret money"
> Also, the contrast between <y> [I] and <i> [i]
> is not very international...
I agree. This is why I invented Long Ygyde.
Long Ygyde is described in the main Ygyde file
(http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/ygyde/ygyde.htm).
It has only 13 letters: a u i b p d t g k w s m l.
Rex F. May
scall...@mailexpire.com at scall...@mailexpire.com wrote on 12/21/04
8:27 AM:
Ceqli, now, is a good hard pie in the face.
Paul O. BARTLETT
> [...]
> ARE THERE ANY OPEN MINDED AUXLANGERS HERE???
Yes. Probably many of them. People may disagree with you and
still be openminded.
David Wolff
Andrew Nowicki <and...@nospam.com> wrote:
> dana.nutter wrote:
>
>> I've looked at Ygyde and while it's an interesting
>> conlang, it is definitely not well-suited for use as
>> an IAL as the author has been boldly claiming. I
>> couldn't begin to guess the meanings of any of the
>> words or morphemes in Ygyde without considerable
>> amounts of study. In fact, this appears to be one of
>> the most difficult IAL designs that I've seen.
>
> This is a vague and inaccurate statement. Anyone who
> has IQ level of 100 can guess the meaning of the
> following Ygyde compound words:
Oooh! Let me try. I'm deleting the English translation since then it's
too obvious what the Ygyde word means:
> = opaby = "noun - anatomical part of a multicellular animal - food"
"Oh baby": a term of endearment
> = onule = "noun distance unit"
"On yule": Season's greetings
> = ysamupy = "noun slow mental person"
"Why Sam uppy": explain Sam's exuberant mood
> = ymapo = "noun feminine parent"
"I'm a PO": I've become a mail delivery person
> = onyle = "noun force unit"
"O nile": big river
> = obujegu = "noun slippery machine liquid"
This one is just a typo.
> = odyki = "noun text rod"
"O dykey": like a big river barrier
This *is* obvious! And *fun*!
Death to spammers --
David
(Remove "xx" to reply.)
Rex F. May
bart...@smart.net wrote on 12/22/04 5:30 PM:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Andrew Nowicki wrote:
>
>> [...]
>
>> ARE THERE ANY OPEN MINDED AUXLANGERS HERE???
>
> Yes. Probably many of them. People may disagree with you and
> still be openminded.
Me! Me! I'm openminded!
Johnd Fstone
I'm openminded, but I'm not an auxlanger.
--
But I forgot to tell you the MAIN ingredient is her own menstrual
blood, and both she and the snake REALLY dig it. -- Abigail
Steve Cross
> weapon = otaje = "noun war machine"
Tank? Fighter aircraft? H-bomb?
Steve Cross, artlanger
Andrew Nowicki
> ARE THERE ANY OPEN MINDED AUXLANGERS HERE???
Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
> Yes. Probably many of them...
They have not demonstrated their open mindedness
or creativity in this thread. Auxlangers should
have been been linguistic inventors who use the
Internet to borrow ideas from each other.
Unfortunately, most of those who call themselves
auxlangers are not inventors of languages but
rather linguistic cheerleaders and warriors.
Paul O. BARTLETT
> Andrew Nowicki wrote:
>
> > ARE THERE ANY OPEN MINDED AUXLANGERS HERE???
>
> Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
>
> > Yes. Probably many of them...
>
> They have not demonstrated their open mindedness
> or creativity in this thread.
Why is it that those who disagree with you are somehow not
openminded? So far, on this newsgroup or on the AUXLANG list, I do
not recall reading any message speaking well about Ygyde except from
you yourself. People disagree with you about your language. That does
not mean that they are closeminded.
> Auxlangers should
> have been been linguistic inventors who use the
> Internet to borrow ideas from each other. [...]
Some of those who frequent auxlang circles may already have a
chosen auxlang, and they come here for other reasons than to invent
something. I one time took an earlier auxlang proposal and modified
it. Does that meet your specifications of what an auxlanger is?
Andrew Nowicki
> Why is it that those who disagree with you are somehow not
> openminded? So far, on this newsgroup or on the AUXLANG list, I do
> not recall reading any message speaking well about Ygyde except from
> you yourself. People disagree with you about your language. That does
> not mean that they are closeminded.
Forget Ygyde!
The problem is that we are not talking about
inventing and improving auxlangs. When scientists
talk about science they exchange ideas. When
auxlangers talk about auxlangs, they exchange
insults.
I have been following this newsgroup for several
years, but I have never seen anyone say:
"Let us make a new auxlang by combining the
best features of auxlang X, auxlang Y, and
auxlang Z."
You sound like another auxlang warrior. So far
you have not contributed any original ideas to
this thread.
Dana Nutter
<and...@nospam.com> wrote:
> dana.nutter wrote:
>
> > I've looked at Ygyde and while it's an interesting
> > conlang, it is definitely not well-suited for use as
> > an IAL as the author has been boldly claiming. I
> > couldn't begin to guess the meanings of any of the
> > words or morphemes in Ygyde without considerable
> > amounts of study. In fact, this appears to be one of
> > the most difficult IAL designs that I've seen.
>
> This is a vague and inaccurate statement. Anyone who
> has IQ level of 100 can guess the meaning of the
> following Ygyde compound words:
Personal attacks won't win you any friends, and IQ has nothing
to do with it. Your morphemes are completely foreign to
everyone and therefore unrecognizable whether alone or
compounded into long multisyllable words.
> meat = opaby = "noun - anatomical part of a multicellular animal - food"
Which anatomical part? Most people don't consider all
"anotomical parts" as "food". Vegetarians don't even consider
animals as food.
> meter = onule = "noun distance unit"
"distance unit", In what measuring system?
> moron = ysamupy = "noun slow mental person"
"slow" = (idomatic usage). Slow/fast could also be dim/bright.
> mother = ymapo = "noun feminine parent"
> newton = onyle = "noun force unit"
Again, what measuring systems? "PSI" could also be a "force
unit"
> machine oil = obujegu = "noun slippery machine liquid"
How about "lubricating liquid", or just "lubricant".
> pen = odyki = "noun text rod"
"text rod!" Who would guess that one? Why not "writing
instrument".
> pocket = ofiza = "noun garment container"
"garment container" would lead me to think of a closet,
suitcase, or something that holds clothing, not a pocket.
> sandpaper = odyfewe = "noun sharp powder sheet"
"sand" + "paper" works out well. "sharp powder" doesn't
necessarily mean "sand".
> screw = odywisu = "noun sharp helix fastener"
Another one I doubt anyone would guess
> outer space = obage = "noun astronomical object environment"
"astronomical object": a planet? a spaceship? The environment
in the International Space Station?
> spider = ocybo = "noun net animal"
A big stretch to use "animal" when describing a creature such as
a spider.
> spy = ynija = "noun secret craftsman"
"craftsman?" What is he crafting?
> sunglasses = ybejifi = "noun atmospheric optical garment"
Since when do glasses qualify as a "garment". Why not something
like "sun protection eye glass"
> plastic surgery = ywelici = "noun pretty medical manipulation"
Okay this does make some sense.
> electric switch = ylyka = "noun electric valve"
"valve?" That would lead me to think more along the lines of a
volume control knob, not a switch.
> tape measure = onuwa = "noun distance tape"
Makes some sense, but it would make more sense to say "measure
tape" to denote the action is performs.
> theologian = ynaco = "noun religious expert"
Why not "religion science person" or "religious scientist".
> topology = okone = "noun shape science"
"shape science": geometry?
> tornado = ybewi = "noun atmospheric helix"
Better alternatives: "wind funnel", "twisting wind", "spinning
air", etc.
> toy = owapusi = "noun happy child tool"
Adults have "toys" tool. Why not "play thing".
> vagina = omazipa = "noun - feminine - hole - anatomical part of a multicellular animal"
Makes some sense, but could probably be made better.
> to vomit = utiby = "verb outer food"
"Vomit" would not come to mind from "outer food". "Shit" would
more likely be the first thought, although this could also
include food sitting on a plate that hasn't been eaten yet.
> wage = onoga = "noun work money"
"payment" is enough?
> weapon = otaje = "noun war machine"
"war machine" = tanks, missiles, etc. What about things like
knives and swords which are also weapons? How about something
more to the point: "assault tool", "killing thing", etc.
> wedding = opomo = "noun parent fusion"
People can be parents without being married, and can get married
without having offspring. In most cultures, this is a
reliigously based institution. Some more like "holy male-female
union" would probably be more understandable.
> weld = ypymo = "noun burning fusion"
Or maybe "metal fusion", etc.
> wood = obeky = "noun - plant - rigid solid"
"plant rigid solid" would make me think "tree", not "wood".
"tree material" maybe could be "wood".
The fact that you must explain each of these words only
demonstrates my point. NOBODY but you, the creator, knows
what any of your morphemes stand for, therefore they are not
recognizable to anyone but you.
> ...
------------------------------
Dana Nutter
SASXSEK RATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek