[NGL] PVS: Interrogative Mood
Jack Durst
Sincerely,
Jack Durst
Sp...@sierra.net
[this posting written in Net English]
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:27:33 -0330
From: Stephen DeGrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Reply-To: N...@onelist.com
To: N...@onelist.com
Subject: [NGL] PVS: Interrogative Mood
From: Stephen DeGrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Hi All,
The question of questions in NGL is something that I have turned over
a lot in my dealing with this project. We basically have a stable set
of idioms and derivations that serve quite well for asking questions
consistently across verb systems. So naturally I have to rock the boat
:-). I want to create and test out a proprietary alternative for PVS.
The idea is to creat an interrogative mood; like the indicative is
indicated with {te}, the possibility would exist to ask a question by
invoking the interrogative mood using an as-yet undefined modal in the
place of {te}. This modal would have full functionality as a PVS
modal, being able to inflect for tense and participate in compound
structures to form displaced tenses. It would be similar to the modal
{di} (the imperative/advisory modal) in that it would not be
_required_ in order to ask a question, just as {di} is not _required_
to make a command or advice, existing devices could also be employed.
It would exist basically as an option.
I got the idea from Scots Gaelic which has a polymorphous (right
word?) word "to be". In Gaelic the verb is "tha" in the positive
indicative and, if I remember correctly (I probably don't :-) ) "chan
robh" in the positive interrogative. The negative indicatives and
interrogatives are also completely different words (i.e., you don't
just add a "not", you have to use a completely different word to make
the verb negative, which is also pretty cool). So "I am" would be "tha
mi", but "am I?" would be "chan robh mi?".
My proposed modal is {li}. The inflections are:
formal informal (usual)
generic li li
present lie' li
past lia' la
future lio' lo
{li} could appear anywhere in a modal chain.
Proposed morpheme:
*deud N - rest, break
This is different than {hapxu} in that it implies an _active_ rest or
break, i.e., instead of being rest as in sleep or lying down or
whatever, it is rest in the sense of a break from your
responsibilities or a time to do what you want. So:
deudkafe - coffee break
cikdeud - vacation, holidays ({deud} alone can also have
this sense)
deudcayas - weekend
So, for my example:
The dialog is:
Q: "Are you going to be here for the holidays?"
A: "No, I'm going back home."
This could be handled either using generic question formation:
Q: żTo no edčam q deud u' eco?
A: No, to behtibeom mafig.
Or using the PVS interrogative modal:
Q: żLo edčam q deud u' eco?
A: No, to behtibeom mafig.
Anyways, I think that's enough to put out for discussion. Thanks, and
I hope the Americans in the group had a super Thanksgiving!!!
Naesverig,
Stephen
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Jack Durst
I recovered from the flu and is just now settling down again.
As for your proposal: I see no problem. TVS already has a proprietary
method in the narrative mood, so I have no objection to PVS having one in
principle. The inflection is consistant with other PVS modals and shows
no flaws, andf such a form is found commonly in the world's languages, and
so is not ruled out by universality.
Jack Durst
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:15:33 -0330
From: Stephen DeGrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Subject: Re: [NGL] PVS: Interrogative Mood
From: Stephen DeGrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:09:19 -0800 (PST), Gerald Koenig
<j...@netcom.com> wrote:
[...]
>>So, for my example:
>>
>>The dialog is:
>>Q: "Are you going to be here for the holidays?"
>>A: "No, I'm going back home."
>>
>>xxx
>>Or using the PVS interrogative modal:
>>
>>Q: żLo edčam q deud u' eco?
>>A: No, to behtibeom mafig.
>>
>I think the idea of a question modal is a very good one. Chinese has
>one,
Well, I don't know whether you'd call that a question *modal* or not.
"ma" (toneless) just signifies that the statement is a question, I
don't know necessariliy that it would be "thought" of as being verbal
in nature or associated in any way with the verb. Actually, I wanted
to do something like that in NGL way back when, but when we were
discussing it it didn't work out quite that way. I do think the
closest comparison *I* can think of is Gaelic, although of course the
Gaelic interrogative forms of verbs don't behave like a PVS verb.
>loglan has one, nilenga has one. I haven't seen one tensed before,
>it's worth a try. I believe you have pulled tense off the verb entirely
>above in ed`e-am (I can't find ed`e- in the wordlist), I've never seen
>you do that before
Well, that's basically the way PVS operates. In pure, unmixed PVS
verbs completely lack the ability to tense, they require one or more
helper verbs that contain information about mood, tense, aspect and
voice in order to have any of those properties. Or to look at it
another way, in the PVS paradigm, there is only a very small
collection of verbs that are allowed to have a tense, and other verbs,
if they are to be tensed, have to be associated with one or more
members of this small set of verbs, incidentally having the meaning of
any helpers it is associated with mixed in with its own inherent
meaning.
{edč} is a recent proposal and therefore not in the last edition of
the database. It means "to spend, take time". In this case, the
literal translation of the sentence is, "Will you spend the break in
this place?"
>of course I like it because it's the way nilenga
>works. I'd like to see other uses of the tensed question modal.
Well, the idea as always is to put it forth as a proposal (so people
know what I'm doing) and playing with it. I don't think that having
the interrogative modal tensed will create any extraordinary problems,
and I agree it may have interesting effects. {li} is rather like the
already-existing {di}, the imperative/advisory, in that both solicit a
response from whatever or whoever is being _addressed_. Where {di} is
saying to the addressee that the speaker would like it to perform the
action specified, {li} is asking the addressee to return information
on the action...
>Incidentally I like the usage "behtibeom mafig" where mafig is an
>adverb. I do that a lot with vxt.
I like that too, actually. I don't know why I do it, you'd think:
{Mafad to behtibeom.}
where the {maf} is placed in the dative case (more or less "I will go
to home") would be more correct or natural, but for some reason the
adverbial form really appeals to me and just feels right.
Jack Durst
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:11:55 -0330 (NST)
From: Stephen Arthur Degrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
Subject: Re: [NGL] PVS: Interrogative Mood
From: Stephen Arthur Degrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Jack Durst wrote:
> From: Jack Durst <sp...@sierra.net>
>
> Hi all, sorry I havn't written for the group, but my life got hectic after
> I recovered from the flu and is just now settling down again.
>
> As for your proposal: I see no problem. TVS already has a proprietary
> method in the narrative mood,
Cool. Can you explain how this works?
Stephen
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Durst
> From: Stephen Arthur Degrace <c72...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
> > As for your proposal: I see no problem. TVS already has a proprietary
> > method in the narrative mood,
> Cool. Can you explain how this works?