[NGL] NGL text
Jack Durst
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 03:41:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerald Koenig <j...@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: [NGL] NGL text
From: Gerald Koenig <j...@NETCOM.COM>
>From the writekit, for your perusal;
Proposed new words:
*guribluos::- grebe, a small duck-like bird, grebe-bird.
*kormarpa::-pier, above-ocean-walk.
*kari::- to cry out
*siemael::-thunder, sky-hammer,
*tertok::-threaten
Yas mi pa pas pasoem pir ku pu et tos ton fis kormarpa. Mip 'ec xiriem
guibluos ke am pas zos ko et inko col ku xoyes. Su am xir ikor ku
ton, pIMirdo anal. Luoses mar am gom sievig et inpasig ton ku xucte.
Fuyo `ol luos pa *kari. *Siemael zonig pa *tertok, et mi pasliv.
Gerald Koenig
TRANSLATION BELOW
Today I walked through the rain and out onto the ocean pier. I saw
swimming grebe moving up and down with the waves. They were swimming
below the surface looking for food. Sea birds (gulls) sat silent and
motionless on the sand. Only one cried out. Thunder suddenly
threatened, and I left.
Literal: Today I past moved walkingly through the rain and outwardly,
on-surfacely, with goal the pier. I-past saw swimming-adj grebes that
were moving oscillatingly up and down with the waves. They were
swimming below the surface, looking for food. Sea birds were sitting
silently and unmovingly on the sand. Only one bird cried out. Thunder
suddenly threatened, and I moved away.
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Jack Durst
> >From the writekit, for your perusal;
> Proposed new words:
> *guribluos::- grebe, a small duck-like bird, grebe-bird.
No objection...
> *kormarpa::-pier, above-ocean-walk.
There's an existing derived word for this: {kuajvodka} meaning "dock"
which is close... Do we need a seperation of meaning here?
> *kari::- to cry out
{diem} could work for this...
> *siemael::-thunder, sky-hammer,
What's wrong with {fan} "thunder/lightning"? If it's not specific enough,
you could go with {niunfan} "the sound of thunder".
Oh, and {si'e} is spelled with a '.
> *tertok::-threaten
Is this derived or coined?
The convention in Tokcir and Zumirtok is to use the short forms for {et}
and {ku} ({&, and q} respectively) unless you're trying for a very formal
feel... Is it different in Nilenga?
>
> Yas mi pa pas pasoem pir ku pu et tos ton fis kormarpa. Mip 'ec xiriem
> guibluos ke am pas zos ko et inko col ku xoyes. Su am xir ikor ku
> ton, pIMirdo anal. Luoses mar am gom sievig et inpasig ton ku xucte.
> Fuyo `ol luos pa *kari. *Siemael zonig pa *tertok, et mi pasliv.
> Today I walked through the rain and out onto the ocean pier. I saw
> swimming grebe moving up and down with the waves. They were swimming
> below the surface looking for food. Sea birds (gulls) sat silent and
> motionless on the sand. Only one cried out. Thunder suddenly
> threatened, and I left.
In Tokcir (translating from the english), this would be:
Yasig[1], paomnos u' q pu u' kuajvodkanto[2]. 'Ekomnot òl guribuloser
xiri[3] ke tibernos xoyig[4]. Xirernos :under: q vod, 'a vupa sahoer
poiso. Gomes inyùgig & sievig luosesom mari u' xucte ace[5]; ol
fuyo niunfemnot. Ku fan estànemno[6], loj atibeomnot 'enyo.
Literal translation:
Todayly, walk-I-narrative-past-imperfect in the rain to big-boat-place.
Sense-I-narrative-past-perfect some grebe-paucal swim-Adj that
move-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect wavely.
Swim-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect under the water, past-imperfect
try find-they fish. Sit-they stilly & quietly birds-nominative sea-Adj at
sand there; one only sound-make-he-narrative-past-perfect. The
thunder/lightning was there, thus I went-from there.
A few notes on the difference (besides using TVS instead of VXT).
1. Yas/Yasig. In Tokcir, {yas} is a noun, and needs to be derived into an
adverb to modify a sentence.
2. {kuajvodkanto} "large dock"
3. Depending on your interpretation of the English, "swimming" could be
either a gerund or a verb. I chose an adjectival interpretation, though
{guribuloser ke xirer xoyig u' vod} might be closer to Jerry's intent,
given his translation.
4. {xoyig} "with the waves", a quirk of English that we don't say
"floating wavely".
5. The {ace} is there for effect, "sat there on the sand" has more primacy
for me...
6. {estàn} is often used in an existential sense of "there is" in Tokcir.
Sincerely,
Jack Durst
Sp...@sierra.net
[this posting written in Net English]
Jack Durst
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:20:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerald Koenig <j...@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [NGL] NGL text
From: Gerald Koenig <j...@NETCOM.COM>
>From: Jack Durst <sp...@sierra.net>
>
>On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Gerald Koenig wrote:
>
>> >From the writekit, for your perusal;
>> Proposed new words:
>> *guribluos::- grebe, a small duck-like bird, grebe-bird.
>No objection...
>
>> *kormarpa::-pier, above-ocean-walk.
>There's an existing derived word for this: {kuajvodka} meaning "dock"
>which is close... Do we need a seperation of meaning here?
One of the things I like about the way you have designed the lang
is the abstract vocabulary, like 'ec and fan. At times though I want to
be specific. As I walked yesterday the sudden thunder was without any
visible lightning. Fan leaves the suggeston of lightning, and dock
leaves the suggestion of boats docking, something not possible on the
pier I was on. Also a pier is usually juts out into the water.
I did look up all the proposed words and couldn't find them. We need a
greppable corpus online besides Steven's excellent wordlist.
>
>> *kari::- to cry out
>{diem} could work for this...
Yes, I missed this by searching for "def cry". A plain "cry" finds it.
I'd still like to keep it for animal cries and some human ones that have
an animal quality. Animals and birds don't decide or decree, another
meaning of diem. Seconds, anyone?
>
>> *siemael::-thunder, sky-hammer,
>What's wrong with {fan} "thunder/lightning"? If it's not specific enough,
>you could go with {niunfan} "the sound of thunder".
>
>Oh, and {si'e} is spelled with a '.
That was a deliberate omission.
>
>> *tertok::-threaten
>Is this derived or coined?
Well, you decide. My associations are newspeak-->terrorspeak-->tertok.
>
>The convention in Tokcir and Zumirtok is to use the short forms for {et}
>and {ku} ({&, and q} respectively) unless you're trying for a very formal
>feel... Is it different in Nilenga?
I seem to remember a discussion with Julian about it and the upshot was
that both forms are ok. Last nite late coming off a set theory
discussion I just wanted to escape the symbols and opt for something
more in the mood of the experience.
>
>>
>> Yas mi pa pas pasoem pir ku pu et tos ton fis kormarpa. Mip 'ec xiriem
>> guibluos ke am pas zos ko et inko col ku xoyes. Su am xir ikor ku
>> ton, pIMirdo anal. Luoses mar am gom sievig et inpasig ton ku xucte.
>> Fuyo `ol luos pa *kari. *Siemael zonig pa *tertok, et mi pasliv.
>
>
>
>> Today I walked through the rain and out onto the ocean pier. I saw
>> swimming grebe moving up and down with the waves. They were swimming
>> below the surface looking for food. Sea birds (gulls) sat silent and
>> motionless on the sand. Only one cried out. Thunder suddenly
>> threatened, and I left.
>
>In Tokcir (translating from the english), this would be:
>
>Yasig[1], paomnos u' q pu u' kuajvodkanto[2]. 'Ekomnot òl guribuloser
>xiri[3] ke tibernos xoyig[4]. Xirernos :under: q vod, 'a vupa sahoer
>poiso. Gomes inyùgig & sievig luosesom mari u' xucte ace[5]; ol
>fuyo niunfemnot. Ku fan estànemno[6], loj atibeomnot 'enyo.
>
>Literal translation:
>Todayly, walk-I-narrative-past-imperfect in the rain to big-boat-place.
>Sense-I-narrative-past-perfect some grebe-paucal swim-Adj that
>move-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect wavely.
>Swim-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect under the water, past-imperfect
>try find-they fish. Sit-they stilly & quietly birds-nominative sea-Adj at
>sand there; one only sound-make-he-narrative-past-perfect. The
>thunder/lightning was there, thus I went-from there.
>
>
This is a really helpful translation. I would like to see more of this
form, it helps a lot learning TVS.
>A few notes on the difference (besides using TVS instead of VXT).
>
>1. Yas/Yasig. In Tokcir, {yas} is a noun, and needs to be derived into an
>adverb to modify a sentence.
I did notice this problem but just glossed it late last nite. Yas in VTT
is a time vector of the length of daylight or 24 hours. The exact meaning
would be that _during_ the day, the walk took place. During_ is the
membership function, "me", ie the mu in question is a member of the
time-vector for the day:
i---@---*--->
(mu) me yas
So the full form in VT is: Me yas mi pa pas pasoem ...
During the day I past moved walkingly..
Here I used this long construction to avoid the sound-alike with pa=walk
and pa=past. Another way might be:
Me yas mi pa pa pir ...
During today I (past) walked...
<me yas> is an adverbial phrase modifying the V walk.
and I have no problem using the definite 1p S and saying
Me yas paomot pir..
during today walked I through..
I wondered why you chose the narrative tense.
>
>2. {kuajvodkanto} "large dock"
>
>3. Depending on your interpretation of the English, "swimming" could be
>either a gerund or a verb. I chose an adjectival interpretation, though
>{guribuloser ke xirer xoyig u' vod} might be closer to Jerry's intent,
>given his translation.
>
>4. {xoyig} "with the waves", a quirk of English that we don't say
>"floating wavely".
I do feel there is some loss of information with this adverb, versus
the rather full description of the motion in vector space tense as
oscillating, up and down, and with the waves. I wanted to emphasize the
large up and down swings of those small birds as they went about their
business of catching (I assume) fish.
Regarding a word for "under" something, I really like my newer form,
<ikor>. It derives from in-ke-or. <In> is the inverse operator wordform
you introduced to vst, <ke> is "up" in anthropometric frames, thus
<inke> is down. <or> is an origin or reference object that is above the
primary object referred to. "Under "is really a ternary relationship of a
reference object, a primary object, and a planetary center of gravity.
In the anthro system, the feet of the standing speaker can be
considered to point to the center of gravity of the planetary CG.
Jerry Koenig
>
>5. The {ace} is there for effect, "sat there on the sand" has more primacy
>for me...
>
>6. {estàn} is often used in an existential sense of "there is" in Tokcir.
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
> Jack Durst
>Sp...@sierra.net
>[this posting written in Net English]
>
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Jack Durst
> From: Gerald Koenig <j...@NETCOM.COM>
>
>
> >From: Jack Durst <sp...@sierra.net>
> >
> >On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Gerald Koenig wrote:
> >> *kormarpa::-pier, above-ocean-walk.
> >There's an existing derived word for this: {kuajvodka} meaning "dock"
> >which is close... Do we need a seperation of meaning here?
> One of the things I like about the way you have designed the lang
> is the abstract vocabulary, like 'ec and fan. At times though I want to
> be specific. As I walked yesterday the sudden thunder was without any
It's more a matter of dialect philosophy than anything else. Tokcir is
strongly derivational: Derive as much as you possibly can from existing
morphemes. Zumirtok is more into coining and borrowing. It's your choice
how to make your dialect, but every lexical choice does need to be
justified.
> visible lightning. Fan leaves the suggeston of lightning, and dock
> leaves the suggestion of boats docking, something not possible on the
> pier I was on. Also a pier is usually juts out into the water.
As I mention later {niunfan} makes it perfectly clear that it was only
thunder, without having to delve into anything non-concrete. As for Pier,
I have no objection to your word now that I know your reason, though I
won't second it as I believe it's unnessicary.
> I did look up all the proposed words and couldn't find them. We need a
> greppable corpus online besides Steven's excellent wordlist.
I'll work on it...
> >> *kari::- to cry out
> >{diem} could work for this...
> Yes, I missed this by searching for "def cry". A plain "cry" finds it.
Understood.
> I'd still like to keep it for animal cries and some human ones that have
> an animal quality. Animals and birds don't decide or decree, another
> meaning of diem. Seconds, anyone?
No objection (but that's the best I'll do.)
> >Oh, and {si'e} is spelled with a '.
> That was a deliberate omission.
Why?
> >> *tertok::-threaten
> >Is this derived or coined?
> Well, you decide. My associations are newspeak-->terrorspeak-->tertok.
I see. That'd be a coining to me... As I can't see how the meaning could
be derived given the existing morphemes, I'll second.
> >The convention in Tokcir and Zumirtok is to use the short forms for {et}
> >and {ku} ({&, and q} respectively) unless you're trying for a very formal
> >feel... Is it different in Nilenga?
> I seem to remember a discussion with Julian about it and the upshot was
> that both forms are ok. Last nite late coming off a set theory
> discussion I just wanted to escape the symbols and opt for something
> more in the mood of the experience.
Both are perfectly acceptable, just wondering why you chose one over the
more common alternative.
> >Literal translation:
> >Todayly, walk-I-narrative-past-imperfect in the rain to big-boat-place.
> >Sense-I-narrative-past-perfect some grebe-paucal swim-Adj that
> >move-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect wavely.
> >Swim-3p-paucal-narrative-past-imperfect under the water, past-imperfect
> >try find-they fish. Sit-they stilly & quietly birds-nominative sea-Adj at
> >sand there; one only sound-make-he-narrative-past-perfect. The
> >thunder/lightning was there, thus I went-from there.
> This is a really helpful translation. I would like to see more of this
> form, it helps a lot learning TVS.
OK, I'll try to include more in my future writings.
> >1. Yas/Yasig. In Tokcir, {yas} is a noun, and needs to be derived into an
> >adverb to modify a sentence.
> I did notice this problem but just glossed it late last nite. Yas in VTT
> is a time vector of the length of daylight or 24 hours. The exact meaning
> would be that _during_ the day, the walk took place. During_ is the
> membership function, "me", ie the mu in question is a member of the
> time-vector for the day:
Interesting...
> I wondered why you chose the narrative tense.
Because the English seemed to be a narrative (a set of events collected
into a story)
> >4. {xoyig} "with the waves", a quirk of English that we don't say
> >"floating wavely".
> I do feel there is some loss of information with this adverb, versus
> the rather full description of the motion in vector space tense as
> oscillating, up and down, and with the waves. I wanted to emphasize the
> large up and down swings of those small birds as they went about their
> business of catching (I assume) fish.
There is, but there's more of an image to "floating on the waves" which I
liked over the vector (which is rare in Tokcir anyway, though I'm working
on learning it.) and which I felt could use the reasonably assumed
knowledge of the tulor to fill the lost information.
> Regarding a word for "under" something, I really like my newer form,
> <ikor>. It derives from in-ke-or. <In> is the inverse operator wordform
> you introduced to vst, <ke> is "up" in anthropometric frames, thus
> <inke> is down. <or> is an origin or reference object that is above the
> primary object referred to. "Under "is really a ternary relationship of a
> reference object, a primary object, and a planetary center of gravity.
> In the anthro system, the feet of the standing speaker can be
> considered to point to the center of gravity of the planetary CG.
Excelent... I'll move it into my dictionary.