King Log vs King Stork
Charles A. Crayne
gamesmanship from this newsgroup to seep into clax86, I am raising the
alert level -- perhaps "even gone a bit too far, to drive the message
home". If a post even hints at being part of an ongoing dispute from this
newsgroup, it will be returned, with a suggestion that it be posted here.
Please do not take this personally. :-)
-- The clax86 moderator
Betov
news:20051102181...@heimdall.crayne.org:
> As a result of a number of complaints
You did not have a _number_ of complaints. You had _Hutch_
and _Randall_ complaints. Two HLLers who works daily
_against_ Assembly, and who, after having lost all debates
at ALA, thought they would have been free to spread their
insanities the easier way on a moderated News Group, and
therefore who where much dispited when making up their
vicious minds that it could not work either, unless _all_
of my posts pointing to flat facts, could be ban.
> that I was allowing too much of the
> gamesmanship from this newsgroup to seep into clax86, I am raising the
> alert level -- perhaps "even gone a bit too far, to drive the message
> home". If a post even hints at being part of an ongoing dispute from
this
> newsgroup, it will be returned, with a suggestion that it be posted
here.
Glad to hear that, now on, you will remove any post saying
that HLA is an Assembler, that Master Randall Hyde is an
Assembly expert, that MASM32 is the Assembly standard, and
so on, and so on.
> Please do not take this personally. :-)
Nope. I just point to facts. Nothing personal, is it?
:)
Betov.
hutch--
How bitter the grapes of wrath, now Betov will have to try and flog his
propaganda on a level playing field where he cannot even make 1st base.
Even with the playing field tilted 90 degrees in his favour, with a
mouth the size of Betov's, he would manage to fall off the side. :)
Regards,
hutch at movsd dot com
rand...@earthlink.net
Thank you.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Charles A. Crayne
Betov <be...@free.fr> wrote:
:You did not have a _number_ of complaints. You had _Hutch_
:and _Randall_ complaints.
Most of the complaints came from clax86 users -- some by email, and other
by posts which I read, but declined to approve.
rand...@earthlink.net
Charles A. Crayne wrote:
>
> Most of the complaints came from clax86 users -- some by email, and other
> by posts which I read, but declined to approve.
C'mon Chuck, we know you *must* be lying :-)
After all, people around here are just dying to read Rene's posts all
the time. They find his musing informative and important. Surely
everyone over in CLAX must feel the same way!
In any case, thanks once again for preventing CLAX from spiralling
down. In many respects, it's too bad we can't moderate this newsgroup,
too. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who want to
discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86) will have a safe
place to interact with other assembly programmers?
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Betov
:))
Thanks for the fun time, but, in your initial post, you
wrote:
>As a result of a number of complaints that I was allowing
>too much of the gamesmanship from this newsgroup to seep
>into clax86, I am raising the alert level -- perhaps "even
>gone a bit too far, to drive the message home". If a post
>even hints at being part of an ongoing dispute from this
>newsgroup, it will be returned, with a suggestion that it
>be posted here.
OK, no problem... But... right today, Master Pdf posted this
at CLAX [Full true words]:
> "HLA is one of the most powerful assemblers ever written".
[I suppose that you can read english, at least, as well as
i do... better, i hope...]
So, do i have to understand that, now on, you are going to
let pass through all Master Pdf provocations, lies swindling
and insanities, and that i will not even be allowed to point
to the fact that HLA is no way any Assembler?
Betov.
Betov
news:1131054253.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
> comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who want to
> discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86) will have a safe
> place to interact with other assembly programmers?
"Assembly programmers"?
So, you would not post your insanities there, ass-hole?
:)
Betov.
hutch--
Here is what the real problem is for you.
===============================================
Glad to hear that, now on, you will remove any post saying
that HLA is an Assembler, that Master Randall Hyde is an
Assembly expert, that MASM32 is the Assembly standard, and
so on, and so on.
===============================================
1. HLA is an assembler.
2. Randy Hyde is an assembler expert.
3. MASM is the industry standard.
4. and so on and so on ....
toby
rand...@earthlink.net wrote:
> ... Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
> comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who want to
> discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86) will have a safe
> place to interact with other assembly programmers?
I'd vote for that.
--T
>
> Cheers,
> Randy Hyde
Chew...@austarnet.com.au
> Charles A. Crayne wrote:
> >
> > Most of the complaints came from clax86 users -- some by email, and other
> > by posts which I read, but declined to approve.
>
> C'mon Chuck, we know you *must* be lying :-)
> After all, people around here are just dying to read Rene's posts all
> the time. They find his musing informative and important. Surely
> everyone over in CLAX must feel the same way!
I personally look forward to hearing the wit of Rene, each and every
day! Someday's it's the funniest material that I read... :P
--
Darran (aka Chewy509) brought to you by Google Groups!
Charles A. Crayne
Betov <be...@free.fr> wrote:
:So, do i have to understand that, now on, you are going to
:let pass through all Master Pdf provocations, lies swindling
:and insanities, and that i will not even be allowed to point
:to the fact that HLA is no way any Assembler?
Nothing quite that binary, and certainly not that one-sided. You can rely
on the fact that I will continue to do my best to hold both you and Randy
to the same standard which I set for everyone else who posts to clax86, no
matter what my own personal opinions are on who is right and who is wrong.
The keystone of the clax86 standard is that there shall be no flame wars,
and the element that is most likely to turn an otherwise rational
discussion into a flame war is to make derogatory remarks about another
poster, or about something that poster holds dear. Another indication of a
flame war is that one or more posters consistently repeat their unprovable
beliefs, while making no attempt to understand the other posters' points of
view.
So, I will not permit anyone to call anyone else a liar, a swindler, or a
nut case. Nor will I approve a post which consists solely of the
repetition of a well known view. Provocation, on the other hand is
somewhat more difficult to determine, since one person might take offense
to what others consider mere bragging.
For example, I can understand why you consider Randy's statement "HLA is
one of the most powerful assemblers ever written" to be provocative, but,
since it is semantically meaningless, non-derogatory, and appears as a
minor part of a product release announcement, I saw no reason to reject
the entire announcement for the sake of one line of self-promotion.
Please be assured that you will be allowed to make the same claim, should
you choose to do so, in your next release notice.
-- Chuck
T.M. Sommers
>
> too. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
> comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who want to
> discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86) will have a safe
> place to interact with other assembly programmers?
A good idea, but who will volunteer to moderate it?
--
Thomas M. Sommers -- t...@nj.net -- AB2SB
Betov
> For example, I can understand why you consider Randy's statement "HLA
is
> one of the most powerful assemblers ever written" to be provocative,
Is it, and you perfectly know at what point is it
a double lie:
1) It is not an Assembler.
2) It is nothing that anybody could call powerfull,
whatever this "Hutch-sounding' word could mean.
> but,
> since it is semantically meaningless, non-derogatory, and appears as a
> minor part of a product release announcement, I saw no reason to reject
> the entire announcement for the sake of one line of self-promotion.
>
> Please be assured that you will be allowed to make the same claim,
should
> you choose to do so, in your next release notice.
I would prefer seeing you banning _lies_ rather than
flames wars... but well... this is a world of small
dicks, isn't it?
:)
Betov.
Betov
@monger.newsread.com:
> rand...@earthlink.net wrote:
>>
>> too. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
>> comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who want to
>> discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86) will have a safe
>> place to interact with other assembly programmers?
>
> A good idea, but who will volunteer to moderate it?
Me. Rules:
1) Master Pdf and Hutch are entirely, and definitively ban.
2) God believers are allowed to shut up.
3) US neo-Nazi (at the exception of Annie) are allowed to
shut up.
4) The Anti-GPL bastard are welcome out.
That would make a decent start-up, don't you agrea?
:))
Betov.
hutch--
> 2) It is nothing that anybody could call powerfull,
> whatever this "Hutch-sounding' word could mean.
> I would prefer seeing you banning _lies_ rather than
> flames wars... but well... this is a world of small
> dicks, isn't it?
Still smarting about the sheer brutal power of MASM ? Why don't you
just give up and write a decent assembler to start with. Download a
copy of HLA and start learning how to write software. DO NOT download
MASM, it is too powerful for you and would blow your half inch dick
off. :)
Betov
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Still smarting about the sheer brutal power of MASM ? Why don't you
> just give up and write a decent assembler to start with. Download a
> copy of HLA and start learning how to write software. DO NOT download
> MASM, it is too powerful for you and would blow your half inch dick
> off.
Why don't you shut up and use your keyboard to write
some significative application either with your C-Side
toy, or with this famous shit Pre-Parser?
That would give us a ____long____ breath.
:)
Betov.
hutch--
> That would give us a ____long____ breath.
Feeling a little short of breath are we ? Take a couple of deep breaths
next time you open your mouth to change feet and you will get over it.
:)
Regards,
rand...@earthlink.net
Betov wrote:
>
> Is it, and you perfectly know at what point is it
> a double lie:
So now you speak for what Chuck knows and doesn't know?
>
> 1) It is not an Assembler.
So you say, but lots of people think that it is. Indeed, a *lot* more
people think HLA to be an assembler than the few RosAsm nutcases who
argue otherwise. Why should Chuck ban posts because of the views held
by a few extremists such as yourself. You've got your own support forum
where you can make all the proclamations you want about HLA not being
an assembler; why not go post such notices there. I'm sure people on
your board would even appreciate it. :-) But it's pretty clear that
most people around here (and on CLAX) don't buy your nonsense about HLA
not being an assembler, so why do you persist in such fantasies?
>
> 2) It is nothing that anybody could call powerfull,
> whatever this "Hutch-sounding' word could mean.
Care to define "powerful"?
>From my perspective it is quite simple -- there isn't a single
assembler out there that can touch HLA's macro and compile-time
language facilities. And support for advanced data structures like
records, classes, and sets within the assembler is only achieved by a
few others (e.g., MASM and TASM, in the case of structs, and TASM in
the case of classes). As for the features that other (32-bit)
assemblers support in their assembly language, HLA provides exactly the
same functionality or it's easy enough to simulate those features with
other facilities that HLA provides. IOW, you can do just about
everything with HLA that can be done with other assemblers, but the
reverse is not true. That's how *I* define powerful. The programming
language provides an incredibly rich set of language facilities to help
the programmer quickly and easily write sophisticated assembly language
programs.
>
>
> > but,
> > since it is semantically meaningless, non-derogatory, and appears as a
> > minor part of a product release announcement, I saw no reason to reject
> > the entire announcement for the sake of one line of self-promotion.
> >
> > Please be assured that you will be allowed to make the same claim,
> should
> > you choose to do so, in your next release notice.
>
>
> I would prefer seeing you banning _lies_ rather than
> flames wars... but well... this is a world of small
> dicks, isn't it?
He also tends to ban profanity and personal insults, as they're
definitely provocative items. When will you learn?
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
hutch--
> Me. Rules:
>
> 1) Master Pdf and Hutch are entirely, and definitively ban.
>
> 2) God believers are allowed to shut up.
>
> 3) US neo-Nazi (at the exception of Annie) are allowed to
> shut up.
>
> 4) The Anti-GPL bastard are welcome out.
The solution is very simple, start your own group and see how the vast
masses rush to hear what you have to say.
alt.betov.propaganda
alt.betov.platitudes
alt.betov.crap.technology
alt.betov.politics
alt.betov.pseudo.compilers
Think Betov, you could at last be the master of your own universe. :)
Frank Kotler
>>A good idea, but who will volunteer to moderate it?
>
> Me. Rules:
>
> 1) Master Pdf and Hutch are entirely, and definitively ban.
>
> 2) God believers are allowed to shut up.
>
> 3) US neo-Nazi (at the exception of Annie) are allowed to
> shut up.
>
> 4) The Anti-GPL bastard are welcome out.
>
> That would make a decent start-up, don't you agrea?
No restrictions on skin color?
Best,
Frank
Annie
On 2005-11-04 be...@free.fr said:
> T.M. Sommers écrivait:
>
> > Randy Hyde wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put in an RFC to get
> > > comp.lang.asm restarted as a moderated group so people who
> > > want to discuss assembly in general (rather than just x86)
> > > will have a safe place to interact with other assembly
> > > programmers?
> >
> > A good idea, but who will volunteer to moderate it?
>
> Me. Rules:
>
> 1) Master Pdf and Hutch are entirely, and definitively ban.
>
> 2) God believers are allowed to shut up.
>
> 3) US neo-Nazi (at the exception of Annie) are allowed to
> shut up.
_____
((( `\
Merci beaucoup, mon cher. _ _`\ )
Je t'adore. Hehe! (^ ) )
~-( )
_'((,,,)))
,-' \_/ `\
( , |
`-.-'`-.-'/|_|
\ / | |
=()=: / ,' aa
Betov
news:1131142719.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>> 1) It is not an Assembler.
>
> So you say, but lots of people think that it is.
I already told you that there are many idiots on earth.
>> 2) It is nothing that anybody could call powerfull,
>> whatever this "Hutch-sounding' word could mean.
>
> Care to define "powerful"?
> From my perspective it is quite simple -- there isn't a single
> assembler out there that can touch HLA's macro and compile-time
> language facilities. And support for advanced data structures like
> records, classes, ...
Sure ass-hole. What achieve in good laugh time, like
in this thread called "HLA For Loop question???", at
CLAX, where lurkers will probably have fun at reading:
----------------------------------------------------
>>> for ( mov( 0, ebx ); ebx < delta; inc( ebx ) ) do
>>> rw_col( col_sz, 0, 0 );
>>> endfor;
>>>
>>> When delta = -1 this appears to loop forever. Is the "ebx < delta;"
>>> expression assuming unsigned values for delta?
>>>
>>> ---John
>>All x86 integer registers are considered to be byte, word, or dword
>>objects. That means that the compiler generates *unsigned* branches for
>>a comparison like "ebx < delta". If you want to check for signed
>>results, you have to override the default assumption and tell the
>>assembler to do a signed comparison. This is done as follows:
>>
>>for( mov( 0, ebx); (type int32 ebx) < 0; inc( ebx ) do ...
>>
>> ---Randall Hyde
------------------------------------------------------
:)
Betov.
Betov
o...@comcast.com:
No. I prefer restrictions on countries' color. Example:
* Isreal >>> ban.
* Cuba >>> Privileged guess.
;)
Though green-skin people seem to me a bit suspect.
:)
Betov.
Herbert Kleebauer
> Betov wrote:
> > 1) It is not an Assembler.
> So you say, but lots of people think that it is. Indeed, a *lot* more
> people think HLA to be an assembler than the few RosAsm nutcases who
> argue otherwise.
Maybe the same "lots of people" who also think Iraq was full of
weapons of mass destruction (no doubt, now it is) and therefore
it is legitimate to kill ten thousands of people (sorry, my mistake,
only US solders are killed, Iraqis are eliminated). With the
proper propaganda you can make people believe nearly everything
(especially if they want to believe it because it's an advantage for
them). At least your propaganda, that HLA is an assembler, doesn't
kill people, but if you really have success, then many people
will pass an assembler course without learning anything about
assembly programming.
If you would call HLA a tool for writing applications, then this
wouldn't be a problem at all. But then you maybe wouldn't have
more success than RosAsm, because in this days an application is
neither written in assembler nor in a "low level HLL" like HLA.
But propagating HLA as tool for teaching assembly programming
isn't tolerate able.
Here a nice example for the consequences posted in clax:
for ( mov( 0, ebx ); ebx < delta; inc( ebx ) ) do
rw_col( col_sz, 0, 0 );
endfor;
When delta = -1 this appears to loop forever. Is the "ebx < delta;"
expression assuming unsigned values for delta?
If HLA is an assembler, how is it possible that the poster
doesn't know the effect of "ebx < delta"? And he isn't even
able to interpret the assembler output of HLA because then
he first had to learn assembly programming in order to learn
programming in HLA.
> From my perspective it is quite simple -- there isn't a single
> assembler out there that can touch HLA's macro and compile-time
> language facilities. And support for advanced data structures like
> records, classes, and sets within the assembler is only achieved by a
What sense does this make for a tool which was designed for teaching
assembly programming? What sense does it make to support automatic
word completion and spell checking in a tool which is designed for
teaching to write with ten fingers on a keyboard? It seems you
are not interested that people learn to write with ten fingers
(learn assembly programming), but want to get as much as possible
people who are using your software even if the consequence is, that
they never learn to proper write with 10 fingers (learn proper
assembly programming).
Frank Kotler
> * Isreal >>> ban.
"Israel", too? You been taking spelling lessons from Beth? (where *is*
Beth, anyway??? Hope she's okay. BAH is definitely *not* Beth!!!)
Don't burn your fingers on a Molotov Cocktail, if you're involved in the
current "activities" over there!
Best,
Frank
Betov
g...@comcast.com:
> Don't burn your fingers on a Molotov Cocktail, if you're involved in
the
> current "activities" over there!
?
You mean... in the actual France events?
?
If yes, i can guess it would be funny to hear
how the story is told in the US neo-nazi media.
:)
Betov.
Frank Kotler
...
> (sorry, my mistake,
> only US solders are killed, Iraqis are eliminated).
We kill a lot of "suspected insurgents", too. (any dead Iraqi not in
uniform - much like "Viet Cong"). :( !!!
> With the
> proper propaganda you can make people believe nearly everything
Frightenly true! I assume you think that it hasn't happened to you. I
know I think it hasn't happened to me (too much). But, Jesus, how would
you really *know*??? Scary!
...
> If HLA is an assembler, how is it possible that the poster
> doesn't know the effect of "ebx < delta"?
To be fair about it, newbies get confused between "jl" and "jb" using a
"real assembler", too. Maybe not *your* students, but I see a lot of it.
> And he isn't even
> able to interpret the assembler output of HLA because then
> he first had to learn assembly programming in order to learn
> programming in HLA.
I was going to suggest that he look at the "real asm" output, but
realized he'd still have to RTFM. He's only on chapter 3 - I think it's
chapter 7 that "real" conditional jumps are covered. I know... not the
way *I'd* approach it either... but Randy thinks - based on experience -
that this works. Time will tell.
I subscribe to the Yahoo aoaprogramming list, and from what I can see,
there are *some* people, at least, who are learning assembly - a lot of
questions about what HLA is doing "behind your back", too. (wouldn't be
"behind your back" if you'd RTFM... that's untested :)
Someone even pointed out a code-generation improvement in HLA to Randy
(I think it's in 1.79 - haven't looked yet)!
So the damn thing does "work" - to some extent, for some people, at
least. It does seem to be a roundabout way to get to the machine. The
example you quote is indicative. The answer - use "int32" instead of
"dword" - doesn't seem "intuitive" to me (RTFM), and doesn't really give
a clue to the fact that there are different instructions for signed and
unsigned... which seems to me to be the "important" thing to learn...
Of course, I don't think any of us agree as to what the "important"
thing about asm is...
Best,
Frank
Evenbit
Frank Kotler wrote:
> > With the
> > proper propaganda you can make people believe nearly everything
>
> Frightenly true! I assume you think that it hasn't happened to you. I
> know I think it hasn't happened to me (too much). But, Jesus, how would
> you really *know*??? Scary!
Well, I quess we can tell you now that our budget has been cut and you
will soon be terminated... Frank -- You are not a human being! You
are simply an AI construct "living" within a virtual world simulation
at MIT. Your entire "life" was orchastrated by the grad students who
shoved punchcards into a Univac.
Sorry, but you wanted to know the truth, didn't you? ;-)
Nathan.
Evenbit
Frank Kotler wrote:
> No restrictions on skin color?
Apparently he has no objections to green-and-purple aliens (like
myself) participating. :-)
Nathan.
Betov
g...@comcast.com:
> The
> example you quote is indicative. The answer - use "int32"...
Must be some kind of inflated "Int3".
:)
Betov.
Evenbit
Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
> But propagating HLA as tool for teaching assembly programming
> isn't tolerate able.
FYI - just take a "byte" out of it -- subtract the "ate" and combine to
get "tolerable"
>
> Here a nice example for the consequences posted in clax:
>
> for ( mov( 0, ebx ); ebx < delta; inc( ebx ) ) do
> rw_col( col_sz, 0, 0 );
> endfor;
>
> When delta = -1 this appears to loop forever. Is the "ebx < delta;"
> expression assuming unsigned values for delta?
>
> If HLA is an assembler, how is it possible that the poster
> doesn't know the effect of "ebx < delta"? And he isn't even
> able to interpret the assembler output of HLA because then
> he first had to learn assembly programming in order to learn
> programming in HLA.
The purpose of teachers, books, and classrooms is introduce and guide
the student into the facts and the thinking processes needed to
understand the subject. Exams and projects are designed to motivate
problem-solving and outcome-oriented behaviour which match the skills
demanded by industry. It is up to the student to do "further reading"
and conduct their own experiments (even defying standard conventions)
to discover other approaches to the problem or different capabilities
of the tools. How would you go about teaching the following program to
a student who only knows Java?:
program forme; #include("stdlib.hhf")
begin forme; jmp startmain;
addnums:
// addnums -- two parameters:
// ebx - start of count
// ecx - end of count
add(ebx,eax);
inc(ebx);
cmp(ebx,ecx);
jne addnums;
add(ebx,eax);
ret();
startmain:
// add the numbers 0 thru 12
xor(eax,eax); // clear scratchpad
mov(eax,ebx); // start at 0
mov(12,ecx); // end at 12
call addnums;
pushd(eax);
call stdout.puti32;
end forme;
There are WAY TOO MANY questions to answer here! Randy's arguement is
that a Java student is more comfortable with HLA/AoA's approach because
they already understand this part:
for ( start; end; step ) do
// stuff
endfor;
...and all the teacher/book needs to explain is that EBX is a register
and that MOV and INC are commands that manipulate the value of that
register. After the student has a good grasp of what is going on, then
they can move to learning about CMP, JNE, PUSHD, CALL, RET, etc without
getting confused in the process.
Babysteps, I guess... but isn't that the same way that one learns
Mathematics, Chemistry, and so on? I mean, you don't start learning
Algebra in first grade. You can't understand what "powers of two"
means until you understand multiplication...and you can't understand
multiplication until you understand addition. Right?
Nathan.
Frank Kotler
> Frank Kotler <fbko...@comcast.net> écrivait news:Z6SdndA1w7fKfPHeRVn-
> g...@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Don't burn your fingers on a Molotov Cocktail, if you're involved in
>
> the
>
>>current "activities" over there!
>
>
> ?
>
> You mean... in the actual France events?
Yes. I guess so... define "actual France". Is this like "actual
assembler"? :)
> If yes, i can guess it would be funny to hear
> how the story is told in the US neo-nazi media.
You can easily get some idea...
http://www.cnn.com
http://www.foxnews.com
I know the "mainstream media" may not be too trustworthy, but if you're
interested in "what we're being told" - that's it...
As for what's really going on... maybe you can tell us what they've got
wrong and what, if any, they've got right.
Best,
Frank
Betov
j...@comcast.com:
>> If yes, i can guess it would be funny to hear
>> how the story is told in the US neo-nazi media.
>
> You can easily get some idea...
>
> http://www.cnn.com
> http://www.foxnews.com
>
> I know the "mainstream media" may not be too trustworthy, but if you're
> interested in "what we're being told" - that's it...
>
> As for what's really going on... maybe you can tell us what they've got
> wrong and what, if any, they've got right.
Well, i took a read in my prefered diagonal mode ;)
and all i can say is that i am surprised how flatly
_factual_ they are. I would have expect some racial
interpretations, but... nope...
[The guys who put on fire are 100% descendants from
immigration (mainly arabian). No relationship with
any May 1968. :)]
Betov.
Herbert Kleebauer
Now I understand. This really makes it easy for the students to
learn assembly programming. All they have to do is, to feed their
Java source not into a Java compiler but into a High Level Assembler and
the unmodified program now is an assembler program instead of a Java
program.
> It is up to the student to do "further reading"
> and conduct their own experiments (even defying standard conventions)
> to discover other approaches to the problem or different capabilities
> of the tools
And if the student really wants to go further, than he can do his own
experiments and try to insert a few real asssembly statements in his
mutated java program.
> ...and all the teacher/book needs to explain is that EBX is a register
> and that MOV and INC are commands that manipulate the value of that
> register.
You don't have to explain more if you do it in real assembler.
Let's take a closer look at your example. A student is able to
write this program himself after five minutes in the first
lesson. The only things he has to be told is:
In our first program we use a very simplified verson of a x86
CPU. This CPU has 6 32 bit registers (r0 - r6) and supports
4 instructions:
move.l: moves either the content of one register into an other
register (move.l r3,r6 ; copy r3 into r6) or a constant
into a register (move.l #1234,r2).
add.l : adds either the content of one register to an other
register (add.l r3,r6 ; add r3 to r6) or a constant
to a register (add.l #1234,r2).
bne.l: branch to the given location if the result of the
immediately preceeding add instruction is not zero
(bne.l loop).
bsr.l: call a subroutine at the given location. After the
subroutine is finished, the program execution continues
with the next instruction after the bsr.l instruction.
(bsr.l print_r0).
There are two already written subroutines which you can use
in your programs:
print_r0: print the content of register r0 as decimal value to
the screen.
exit: terminate the program (this subroutine will not
return to the next instruction after the bsr.l exit).
Now write a program which adds all numbers from 7 to 88 where
the start and end value (7 and 88) should be used as parameter
so the code can easily be modified for other values.
move.l #7,r1 ; start value
move.l #-88,r2 ; - end value
move.l #0,r0
loop: add.l r1,r0
move.l r1,r3
add.l #1,r1
add.l r2,r3
bne.l loop
bsr.l print_r0
bsr.l exit
And if this program is assembled as 16 bit dos program, the students
see, that there is no magic behind there back. The executable is
109 byte with nothing there than their own code and the two subroutines
print_r0 and exit:
@=$100
00000100: 66 ba 00000007 move.l #7,r1 ; start
00000106: 66 b9 ffffffa8 move.l #-88,r2 ; - end
0000010c: 66 b8 00000000 move.l #0,r0
00000112: 66 01 d0 loop: add.l r1,r0
00000115: 66 89 d3 move.l r1,r3
00000118: 66 81 c2 00000001 add.l #1,r1
0000011f: 66 01 cb add.l r2,r3
00000122: 66 0f 85 ffffffe9 bne.l loop
00000129: 66 e8 00000009 bsr.l print_r0
0000012f: 66 e8 00000000 bsr.l exit
00000135: 66 58 exit: move.l (sp)+,r0
00000137: c3 rts.w
print_r0:
00000138: 66 60 movem.l r0-r7,-(sp)
0000013a: 31 c9 eor.w r2,r2
0000013c: 66 31 d2 _10: eor.l r1,r1
0000013f: 66 f7 36 0168 divu.l _c100,r1|r0
00000144: 66 92 exg.l r0,r1
00000146: f6 36 016c divu.b _c10,m0|r0
0000014a: 05 3030 add.w #'00',r0
0000014d: 50 move.w r0,-(sp)
0000014e: 83 c1 02 addq.w #2,r2
00000151: 66 92 exg.l r0,r1
00000153: 66 09 c0 or.l r0,r0
00000156: 75 e4 bne.b _10
00000158: 89 e2 move.w r7,r1
0000015a: b4 40 move.b #$40,m0
0000015c: bb 0001 move.w #1,r3
0000015f: cd 21 trap #$21
00000161: 01 cc add.w r2,r7
00000163: 66 61 90 movem.l (sp)+,r0-r7
00000166: 66 c3 rts.l
00000168: 00000064 _c100: dc.l 100
0000016c: 0a _c10: dc.b 10
Paul Dunn
> Now write a program which adds all numbers from 7 to 88 where
> the start and end value (7 and 88) should be used as parameter
> so the code can easily be modified for other values.
>
>
> move.l #7,r1 ; start value
> move.l #-88,r2 ; - end value
>
> move.l #0,r0
> loop: add.l r1,r0
> move.l r1,r3
> add.l #1,r1
> add.l r2,r3
> bne.l loop
>
> bsr.l print_r0
> bsr.l exit
What does ".l" mean? And why is there a # mark in front of the numbers? Hang
on, is that negative 88? How does a negative work on a register? What is the
range of numbers a register can hold?
Herbert Kleebauer
> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>
> > Now write a program which adds all numbers from 7 to 88 where
> > the start and end value (7 and 88) should be used as parameter
> > so the code can easily be modified for other values.
> >
> >
> > move.l #7,r1 ; start value
> > move.l #-88,r2 ; - end value
> >
> > move.l #0,r0
> > loop: add.l r1,r0
> > move.l r1,r3
> > add.l #1,r1
> > add.l r2,r3
> > bne.l loop
> >
> > bsr.l print_r0
> > bsr.l exit
> What does ".l" mean?
That was a very bad question! What does the "l" in your name
"Paul" mean? If we have four CPU instructions, we need four
different names for these instructions. I could have chosen
instruction_1, instruction_2, instruction_3 and instruction_4
but preferred the names move.l, add.l, bne.l and bsr.l. That's
the freedom of the writer of an assembler to choose which
ever names he prefers. And the ".l" is just part of the
chosen name as "l" is part of your name Paul.
> And why is there a # mark in front of the numbers?
The same answer as above. I have chosen that register names
start with a "r" (r0, r1, r2, ..) and numbers with a "#".
Later in the course the students will understand why the ".l"
and "#" is used, but at the moment this doesn't matter at all.
We had to give the baby a name so we gave it a name. It doesn't
make any sense to ask why this name was chosen and not an
other name.
> Hang
> on, is that negative 88? How does a negative work on a register?
I always thought that assembly programming is learned after
kindergarten so they already should know about negative numbers.
> What is the
> range of numbers a register can hold?
That was part of the CPU definition I gave:
In our first program we use a very simplified verson of a x86
CPU. This CPU has 7 32 bit registers (r0 - r6) and supports
4 instructions:
If a student isn't able to read three lines of text, then he
will also not be able to do assembly programming.
Frank Kotler
> We had to give the baby a name so we gave it a name. It doesn't
> make any sense to ask why this name was chosen and not an
> other name.
The "baby" already had not one, but two names - the name given by its
"parent" (Intel) and the name given by its "step-parent" (AT&T). If it's
"just a name", why did you feel the need to make up a new name? If it's
"just a name", would I be wrong to assume that "Paub" and "Pauw" might
be related to "Paul" somehow?
(just nit-pickin' - not a serious question)
Best,
Frank
Frank Kotler
["Paris is burning" - says so in the papers]
> Well, i took a read in my prefered diagonal mode ;)
Understood. I haven't done a full study of "media coverage", either.
> and all i can say is that i am surprised how flatly
> _factual_ they are. I would have expect some racial
> interpretations, but... nope...
I don't know what you have in mind. I would have expected the "nazi"
media to blare "Big Black Bucks Burn Paris!", and the "commie" media to
whine "Oppressed Minorities Forced By Racism To Burn Automobiles For
Warmth!". It's a little subtler than that.
CNN is less likely to mention race at all - "immigrants", and they
mention "Muslim" and maybe "of African descent". Fox comes right out and
calls the two kids who were electrocuted "black teenagers". They use the
word "marauding" more, and refer to "Muslim-filled" neighborhoods (they
didn't say "Muslim-infested"... quite).
Fox is headlining a story about a woman - on crutches, no less - being
set on fire by "African immigrant attackers". I don't recall reading
about it on CNN - not "headlined", anyway...
In the wake of Hurricane Katrina (How I hate to see them besmirching my
daughter's beautiful name! But I could have told them if they named a
hurricane after her it'd be a humdinger!), there were media reports of
rampant murder, rape, and looting by armed gangs roaming the streets of
New Orleans. Yet, after the fact, there are no reports of sexual
assault, the bodies don't have bullet-holes in 'em, no bodies of
murdered babies at the Convention Center (as was reported)... No doubt
there was some incident or incidents upon which the reports were based,
but apparently it mostly happened in the media.
("The white folks found some bread in a store, the black folks were
looting!")
Sometimes the initial reports - before they have a chance to "spin" 'em
- are more reliable. Sometimes the media jumps the gun - gotta be first
with the story - and reports stuff that's just "talk".
> [The guys who put on fire are 100% descendants from
> immigration (mainly arabian). No relationship with
> any May 1968. :)]
Ah, the good old days! Did you fight alongside of Danny the Red at the
barricades? Hmmm... we had some "media hype" back in those days, too, as
I recall.
Best,
Frank
Herbert Kleebauer
> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>
> > We had to give the baby a name so we gave it a name. It doesn't
> > make any sense to ask why this name was chosen and not an
> > other name.
>
> The "baby" already had not one, but two names - the name given by its
> "parent" (Intel) and the name given by its "step-parent" (AT&T). If it's
> "just a name", why did you feel the need to make up a new name?
At that time there was an extremely beautiful teenager with a sexy
outfit from Motorola, an awful old hag from Intel and a average
looking woman in blue working clothes from AT&T. Therefore it was
obvious which name to chose for the new baby. In the meantime the
old hag has killed the beautiful Motorola girl and, after many
beauty operations, the body (hardware) of the old hag is even
usable, but only if you pull a mask (assembler) with the picture of
the Motorola girl over her head. I can't understand why so many men
enjoy to mess around and use the body of this old hag when, at
the same time, they have to look at her ugly and completely
illogical face. But maybe if somebody never has seen this
lovely Motorola girl and is under the ban of the old witch,
he can't see the real face of the old hag.
Robert Redelmeier
> At that time there was an extremely beautiful teenager with
> a sexy outfit from Motorola, an awful old hag from Intel
> and a average looking woman in blue working clothes from
> AT&T. Therefore it was obvious which name to chose for
> the new baby. In the meantime the old hag has killed the
> beautiful Motorola girl and, after many beauty operations,
> the body (hardware) of the old hag is even usable, but
> only if you pull a mask (assembler) with the picture of the
> Motorola girl over her head. I can't understand why so many
> men enjoy to mess around and use the body of this old hag
> when, at the same time, they have to look at her ugly and
> completely illogical face. But maybe if somebody never has
> seen this lovely Motorola girl and is under the ban of the
> old witch, he can't see the real face of the old hag.
Beauty is where you find it.
Personally, I like x86. Yes, it is (was?) highly asymmetric,
a key measure of human ugliness. That has never caused me
as an assember pgmr any trouble, although I can see it might
grieve compiler writers.
x86 is said to be "register short". Again, I disagree. More
isn't better, especially when x86 has fast L1 caches. Data
has a hierarchy. Use it.
There are reasons x86 is what it is. Once you learn them,
You may find x86 less ugly. Personally, I find Moto soulless.
No character. And Alpha is just long too. x86 has the great
virtue of compactness. Obviously at a cost.
-- Robert
Paul Dunn
> That was a very bad question! What does the "l" in your name
> "Paul" mean? If we have four CPU instructions, we need four
> different names for these instructions. I could have chosen
> instruction_1, instruction_2, instruction_3 and instruction_4
> but preferred the names move.l, add.l, bne.l and bsr.l. That's
> the freedom of the writer of an assembler to choose which
> ever names he prefers. And the ".l" is just part of the
> chosen name as "l" is part of your name Paul.
The reason I ask is that in the HLL environment I've come from (and indeed
in others that I've used), a ".l" suffix usually means something. It could
mean "Long", it could mean "least", it could be a property of an object. It
begs the question, "What else can follow the '.'?", which is a question I
would have asked. If my name were Pau.l, then yes, you might have had a
point. However, the "." is usually used as a separator. I believe that the
68k series uses these as a suffix?
Given that I can already program quite proficiently in a number of
languages, then should I move to an assembly language (whatever chipset)
then that sort of thing should be explained. Expecting me to know that would
be quite an oversight.
>> And why is there a # mark in front of the numbers?
>
> The same answer as above. I have chosen that register names
> start with a "r" (r0, r1, r2, ..) and numbers with a "#".
>
> Later in the course the students will understand why the ".l"
> and "#" is used, but at the moment this doesn't matter at all.
> We had to give the baby a name so we gave it a name. It doesn't
> make any sense to ask why this name was chosen and not an
> other name.
But it does - it's almost certain to be one of the first things a student
will ask, possibly after they've tried changing the ".l" and the "#" to see
what happens. The presence of a "#" whilst there's already a register
denoting "r" would suggest that the # means something significant -
otherwise it would not need to be there.
Again, it would be something of an oversight to assume that a student
already knows that "#" means "number".
>> Hang
>> on, is that negative 88? How does a negative work on a register?
>
> I always thought that assembly programming is learned after
> kindergarten so they already should know about negative numbers.
Dunno about you, but they didn't teach me about signed integers in 32bits at
pre-school. And again, given a student that has knowledge of HLL integer
types (which are compiled from their "-ve" or "+ve" notation transparently
to the user), expecting them to know about a sign-bit in a 32bit DWord would
be expecting rather more than they have a right to already know.
Call me old-fashioned, but I thought the point of being a student was to
learn, not to do a course that you're expected to be already proficient in?
Frank Kotler
> At that time there was an extremely beautiful teenager with a sexy
> outfit from Motorola,
Sometimes, the really hot-looking women never learn to be "nice". They
don't *have* to. (Right, Annie?) Ugly women try harder.
...
> but only if you pull a mask (assembler) with the picture of
> the Motorola girl over her head.
Or you could use a HLL - a bag over *your* head, in case hers breaks.
A picture of another architecture... so much for asm being "the language
that *shows*", eh?
Best,
Frank
Annie
On 2005-11-07 Frank Kotler said:
> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>
> > At that time there was an extremely beautiful teenager with
> > a sexy outfit from Motorola,
>
> Sometimes, the really hot-looking women never learn to be "nice".
> They don't *have* to. (Right, Annie?)
_____
How would *I* know? I'm ((( `\
cute AND nice. Hehe! _ _`\ )
(^ ) )
> Ugly women try harder. ~-( )
_'((,,,)))
That's a common fallacy, ,-' \_/ `\
often propagated by guys ( , |
who aren't too experienced `-.-'`-.-'/|_|
with women. \ / | |
=()=: / ,' aa
Truth is, ugly women often
tend to stop trying, and then blame their troubles
on the rest of the world.
That's why "feminism" was invented: so ugly women
could have a receptive, like-minded audience for
their bitching and whining. Hehehe!
As far as different processors and ASM are concerned,
there are plusses and minuses to every situation. You
either agree to go with what you've got, or you go
someplace else.
That's why I don't use WinDoze. Hehe!
Herbie is accustomed to Motorola's weird-ass syntax, so
he wrote his own assembler to support it on i86 hardware.
That's cool; I have no problem with that...as long as *I*
don't have to use it.
This whole discussion is essentially a "religious" matter,
anyway. And if you proselytize, you've gotta figure that
the heathen monkeys are gonna fling poo-poo at you. Hehehe!
Mabden
news:dkp6td$c23$1...@domitilla.aioe.org...
> This whole discussion is essentially a "religious" matter,
> anyway. And if you proselytize, you've gotta figure that
> the heathen monkeys are gonna fling poo-poo at you. Hehehe!
You are _*COMPLETELY*_ wrong. I fling doo-doo!
--
Mabden
(A heathen ape - If Heathen means I fucked Heather)
Annie
On 2005-11-08 mabden@sbc_global.net said:
> "Annie" wrote:
>
> > This whole discussion is essentially a "religious" matter,
> > anyway. And if you proselytize, you've gotta figure that
> > the heathen monkeys are gonna fling poo-poo at you. Hehehe!
>
> You are _*COMPLETELY*_ wrong. I fling doo-doo!
>
> --
> Mabden _____
((( `\
Yes; that's fairly obvious. _ _`\ )
Hehe! (^ ) )
~-( )
_'((,,,)))
,-' \_/ `\
( , |
`-.-'`-.-'/|_|
rand...@earthlink.net
Paul Dunn wrote:
> Call me old-fashioned, but I thought the point of being a student was to
> learn, not to do a course that you're expected to be already proficient in?
A point I constantly make around here when certain individuals start
claiming that all you need to learn assembly is the manufacturer's data
sheets. :-)
Gee, if students could read those and learn programming (much less
assembly programming from them), it's pretty clear the students
wouldn't really need much of an education at all.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Lefty Bigfoot
(in article <dkpsjn$on2$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>):
> > Mabden _____
> ((( `\
> Yes; that's fairly obvious. _ _`\ )
> Hehe! (^ ) )
> ~-( )
> _'((,,,)))
> ,' --- `\
> | , |
> `--'`--'/|_|
> / \ | |
> ===()===:/ ,'
>
That's obvious too.
--
_ __ _
| | ___ / _| |_ _ _
| | / _ \ |_| __| | | |
| |__| __/ _| |_| |_| |
|_____\___|_| \__|\__, |
|___/
All of God's creatures have a place..........
.........right next to the potatoes and gravy.