2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7 Engine stalling
James
Engine has been literally perfect until last six months or so.
In the last week, engine has stalled three times, at very slow idle, or very
low speed. I have NO problems starting the engine. Today, while
traveling
on the interstate at 70 mph, my engine shuts off entirely, and all of my
gauges
go down to zero. It was as though some one unhooked the battery and the
alternator at the same time. I allowed the car to slow down to about 50
mph
and all of a sudden, the gauges snap back into "normal" positions, and the
engine resumes
normal running, and I drive 300 more miles home without mishap, except that
it again stalled twice at very low idle speeds (at red lights).
Other than these rather serious quirks, I have good engine performance. No
noises, etc.
I am not a mechanic, but I would have suspected a fuel delivery problem
were it not for
the fact that my gauges went dead, which makes me wonder about the computer
module
or something like that. I have done the ignition switch on and off three
times in sequence, but I get no error code. Just reads "done" after the
third switch. I hope to get an OBD done asap.
Within past six months I had some slow idle stalling and slow cranking
problems. Based
on advice here, I had the throttle body cleaned and the iac cleaned out.
That took care of those
problems at the time. Again, no problems starting now, just slow idle
stalling, and the very weird engine and gauge shutdown at 70 mph (occurred
once).
Any commnents or advice will be appreciated. What should I be checking ?
James
James
When the shutdown occurred at high speed, and then the engine restarted on
its own, a special light came on the dash that I don't recall ever noticing
before. I looked it up in my manual, and it was for the keyless sentry
system of the Jeep. Hmmmm..... could a malfunction of this key cause a
complete electrical and engine shutdown ??
Could I have two very different things going on at the same time ? The high
speed shutdown caused by one problem, and the slow idle stall caused by
another ??
James
DougW
> I have a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4.7 liter engine. 205,000 miles.
> In the last week, engine has stalled three times, at very slow idle,
> or very low speed. I have NO problems starting the engine. Today,
> Within past six months I had some slow idle stalling and slow cranking
> problems.
> Any commnents or advice will be appreciated. What should I be
> checking ?
First wiggle the battery terminals to make sure they aren't loose
or broken.
High on my list as next culprit is the CPS (Crankshaft Position Sensor)
although a failing coil, coil rail, or coil on plug (depends on your
system) will also cause these issues without setting codes.
At higher RPM a failed spark will generally not be noticable. I had a
run-in with a bad coil in my 93.
Fuel delivery will show up as a power sag or ping at wide open throttle.
--
DougW
DougW
> Sorry, I forgot to leave out what could be an important fact....
>
> When the shutdown occurred at high speed, and then the engine
> restarted on its own, a special light came on the dash that I don't
> recall ever noticing before. I looked it up in my manual, and it was
> for the keyless sentry system of the Jeep. Hmmmm..... could a
> malfunction of this key cause a complete electrical and engine
> shutdown ??
Failed SKIM won't shut the engine down once it has started. I think
it's a restart gremlin. Starting to point towards a bad connection
at the battery or a bad engine ground.
> Could I have two very different things going on at the same time ?
> The high speed shutdown caused by one problem, and the slow idle
> stall caused by another ??
You can. But usually one problem tends to cause others.
Oddly though the battery issue usually sets all sorts of codes.
This is starting to sound like a CPS issue.
--
DougW
James
at high speed / 70 mph ????
I had thought that the CPS problem only related to starting issues........
but I am not a mechanic.
James
DougW
> Doug, you think a bad CPS could cause a total electrical and engine
> failure at high speed / 70 mph ????
It can. The CPS is used to tell the computer when the engine gets to TDC
so it can set timing. Loose that signal and the engine will shut down to
prevent misfire.
> I had thought that the CPS problem only related to starting
> issues........ but I am not a mechanic.
CPS usually gives grief at low speeds causing a stall as the vehicle
comes to a stop. But it's been known to fail at other times.
Check the plug. CPS is on the transmission 11:00 position and usually
routs up the passenger side of the engine to the harness.
--
DougW
James
James
DougW
> Thank you so much Doug !!
>
> James
no problem.. hope the info helps.
It's nice to actually see somethign other
than the usual noise in this group. :)
--
DougW
Billy
"James" <jnipp...@nospamfdn.com> wrote:
Just shoot it, and bury it under your roses. At least your roses will be
getting some iron, while you are listening Rush on your AM squawk radio.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html
one@bellsouth.com James
So, for a full month, I have had NO problem. But today, at slow speeds of
20-30 mph, the engine shut down completely. Then, the starter would turn
over and over, but the engine would not crank. All gauges remained at
zero.
After some time, and turning the ignition on and off, the gauges went back
to
normal, and the engine started right up. I am not a mechanic, but it seems
to
me that this HAS to be an electrical problem.
Yes, I will have a mechanic do the ODC codes asap, but what kind of things
are left, that I should be looking for ??
Please read the OP again (below) and give me any hints now, after knowing
that I did have the CPS installed.
Thank You.
James
-------------------------------------------
PeterD
wrote:
>Since I first posted this problem, I installed the CPS , about a month ago.
>So, for a full month, I have had NO problem. But today, at slow speeds of
>20-30 mph, the engine shut down completely. Then, the starter would turn
>over and over, but the engine would not crank. All gauges remained at
>zero.
Sounds like an ignition switch problem...
>After some time, and turning the ignition on and off, the gauges went back
>to
>normal, and the engine started right up. I am not a mechanic, but it seems
>to
>me that this HAS to be an electrical problem.
Probably, given the gauge problems...
>
>Yes, I will have a mechanic do the ODC codes asap, but what kind of things
>are left, that I should be looking for ??
>
Check the connections/plugs to the PCM.
DougW
Also check up under the steering shaft where the ignition switch connector
plugs into the body connector.
--
DougW
one@bellsouth.com James
James
James
Jeep dealer, and left it there for two days. While at the dealer, it ran
fine. They claimed to have driven it some, and they claimed to have let it
run at idle for hours at a time, then switch it off and on, etc etc. To
make a long story short, they just told me that they could not duplicate the
problem, and could not actually diagnose it. They claim to have checked
the ignition switch and the pcm plug, but said that was not the problem.
They said the problems "could" be the Body Control Module AND the PCM,
and quoted me $1,600 for both including labor, but with NO warranty and NO
assurance that the car would even run when they got done. I didn't see much
future in that, although I would have paid their price if I had some
reasonable assurance that would have fixed the problem.
Today, I drove home, a 500 mile trip. The car drove fine for the first
190 miles, and then just shut off, all of a sudden. Same symptoms as shown
below. All gauges at zero, but starter would turn the engine over but it
would not fire. Very same symptoms as we have had for some time now. We
were out of town, and in a precarious spot. We called a wrecker, and
waited an hour for them to get there. Once the wrecker arrived and the
driver asked me to turn the ignition on and put it in neutral , once I
flipped the switch the gauges came on and (as always) the car started fine
and ran fine. We drove to a local Jeep dealership, and they said it would
be a few days before they could look at it, so we elected to try to drive it
home. So, we drove it home for the final 300 miles , without mishap. So,
it shut down after 190 miles, then the gauges restored after an hour of
shutdown, and them it ran for 300 miles without any problem.
Another thing that concerns and also confuses me..... the Jeep dealer today
said that it would be nearly impossible for them to diagnose the problem if
it was running fine while it was there. On the other hand, they said that
if the gauges were dead when they were working on it..... their computer
scanner would probably not get a "read" on the problem, as they suspect
there may be a bus communication problem. How on earth would anyone ever
diagnose the problem ???
The only pattern that I seem to have noticed, is that the gauges seem to
reactivate after about an hour of cool-down. Could this be heat-related ?
Is there any type of thermal fuse or in-line link that could cause this
problem ??
I will greatly appreciate any further comments or advice on this problem.
James
---------------------------------
bllsht
without being able to test it while it was dead. However, neither a
bus problem or a BCM would cause the engine to shut down while
driving.
The instrument cluster gets it's gauge information from the PCM over
the PCI bus. The fact that the gauges fail at the same time the
engine quits would have me looking real close at the PCM grounds &
power feeds. Maybe even a dying PCM.
On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:09:18 -0400, "James" <jnipp...@nospamfdn.com>
wrote:
PeterD
wrote:
>I wanted to give an update on this ongoing saga. I took the Jeep to a
>Jeep dealer, and left it there for two days. While at the dealer, it ran
>fine. They claimed to have driven it some, and they claimed to have let it
>run at idle for hours at a time, then switch it off and on, etc etc. To
>make a long story short, they just told me that they could not duplicate the
>problem, and could not actually diagnose it. ...
That lack of gauges at all (including fuel for example) is a clear
indication that the computer is not working or communicating with the
outside world or the dash. All the gauges are 'buffered' through the
computer, which is why.
The inablity to diagnose is basically because they (the dealer) is
unable or unwilling to check hundreds of connectors, wires, and
electrical components to find where the problem lies. No surprise,
really, as it could take many hours.
Heat related? Probably, but the heat may be very localized--such as a
single pin on a connector, or a single wire to a pin, or even a fuse.
Suggestions:
1. Disconnect the battery before doing any of these, and wait ten
minutes before doing any of these.
2. Reseat all fuses. All of them!
3. Reseat all relays. Again, all of them, don't try to guess which one
might be a problem. Don't say--this is the xyz relay so it can't be
guilty: do it anyway.
4. Reseat all connectors, paying particular attention to connectors to
the ECM and other computer modules, connectors to fuse panels,
connectors to dash, and connectors under the dash. Reseat as many
connectors as you can find. When you unplug each connector,
*carefully* inspect the connector for discolored or damaged pins or
sockets, discolored wires emerging from the connector, etc.
5. Make sure your ground straps are all good, and tight.
Will Honea
Good map, Peter. Couple of refinements to consider as you do them.
a. look for any sign of corrosion or tarnish on the connectors. I know it
smells, but my old MJ gets cranky after trips down to the Texas coast and I
finally quit being picky and just pull every fuse, spray the fuse block and
fuse pins with WD40 then run them in and out a few times. Blow the WD40
out as a last step or it will collect dirt and crud over time but it's a
quick and dirty that works.
b. if you see ANY sign of corrosion (greenish crud on a metal wire or pin)
soak the connector with contact cleaner (WD40 works but you have to blow it
dry) then try and work the connection to get mechanical cleaning. On older
Jeeps the fuse block was located on the firewall (under the dash) where any
leak from the brake or clutch cylinders would run down on it. The brake
fluid is hygroscopic and essentially pulls moisture inside the crimped
connections. I've had apparently solid, clean crimped connections go open
from the resulting corrosion inside the insulation and crimp.
The computer signals are low voltage/current so ANY amount of
tarnish/corrosion on contacts can result in erratic connections. Your
description tells me that you almost certainly have a connector problem.
And don't forget those ground points - Jeeps are notorious for losing
grounds at those points.
--
Will Honea
James
mechanic....
thank you !!
James
James
dealer in my home town.... Although it was there all day, I have no idea
of what all they did to it.... I suspect they just put the OBD scanner on
it, and came up with a code. They could have done more, but I have no way
of knowing. That is why I prefer a private mechanic, so that I can talk to
the human who works on my car. Usually, that is impossible at a dealer.
Findings.... the dealer says is shows an error code of P0725, engine speed
sensor function. Based on this, they recommended that I replace the
transmission control module, at a cost of $850, with NO warranty , and NO
guaranty that is my problem !! Sorry, but I just don't see any future in
thowing out that kind of money when even they don't really know what the
problem is. I wouldn't hesitate if they would assure me this would fix the
problem, and/or at least give me a 90 day warranty. Furthermore, I have had
NO problem with the transmission. Remember, this is an engine shutdown
problem, with all gauges going to zero. So far, different Jeep dealers have
told me that I need a new Body Control Module, New PCM, and new
Transmission Control Module. None of them have had enough faith in their
diagnosis to guarantee their work.
I then took the Jeep to another private mechanic who has a good reputation,
and I reviewed all the the facts with him. He is willing to invest some
hours in testing grounds, etc etc, but he recommended one first step before
I pay for a full day of diagnostic work. Although I replaced the CPS in
April, he indicates that he has installed a number of CPS units that turned
out to be defective. He suggests that he first install another new CPS,
and also replace the Camshaft Position Sensor as well. Then, we would go
from there. This guy is very reputable, and I truly believe he is trying
to approach this from the most cost-effective approach.....
Any further comments, based on this new info ?? If I have him replace
those sensors, would you also replace the engine speed sensor (code P0725)
??
Thank you very much for your continued input!! This is the most frustrating
car problem that I have ever had....
James
------------------------------
Will Honea
> I then took the Jeep to another private mechanic who has a good
> reputation, and I reviewed all the the facts with him. He is willing to
> invest some hours in testing grounds, etc etc, but he recommended one
> first step before I pay for a full day of diagnostic work. Although I
> replaced the CPS in April, he indicates that he has installed a number of
> CPS units that turned out to be defective. He suggests that he first
> install another new CPS, and also replace the Camshaft Position Sensor as
> well. Then, we would go from there. This guy is very reputable, and I
> truly believe he is trying to approach this from the most cost-effective
> approach.....
>
> Any further comments, based on this new info ?? If I have him replace
> those sensors, would you also replace the engine speed sensor (code
> P0725) ??
Having fought CPS problems with the I6 more than a few times, I can tell you
that neither that of those sensors will shut the computer down to the point
of killing the gauges. The CPS will cause random shutdowns of the engine
and it can be heat sensitive. On GM products, the ECM was the most common
culprit - also heat related. I've had the most grief with cheap
replacement parts and the best luck using OEM parts for those functions.
--
Will Honea
James
module, correct ?
Thanks
James
Will Honea
> Will, is the ECM the same as the PCM ? Either way, the primary
> computer
> module, correct ?
Now I could be confusing you so let's be careful. The ECM is the component
that actually generates the ignition at the plug. It is a separate part
from the computer on the models I've worked on although later models may
incorporate it into the into the PCM. On older (circa 1990 - 2000) GM
engines, it was mounted inside the distributor. Jeeps had it mounted in
various place on under the hood. When that started going south, one test
was to blow cool air or some other way of cooling the module. (Like the old
VW, when it vapor locked from heat the emergency recovery was to piss on
it - literally)
I can't keep all the models straight in my head, but if yours has a single
coil, you can follow the coil primary side wiring to locate the part that
drives it. It's a fairly high power/current module. Nearly all the logic
comes from the computer but the actual power side is kept separate.
Thinking of that, have you checked the coil? I'm still not convinced that
it isn't a ground/connector issue, though. The failure of the instrument
panel along with the engine dying at random intervals but running fine for
indeterminate periods in between is not consistent with a computer failure.
--
Will Honea
DougW
I'd also be paying close attention to the battery and cables.
A bad/failing connection in the battery will cause these problems.
Few years ago I had the same issue. Found it when I went to remove
the battery terminals to clean them and the terminal came off
the battery!
--
DougW
bllsht
Your "reputable" guy wants to start by throwing parts at it first?
Before he checks anything? Before he even tries to duplicate the
problem? No guarantee it'll fix your problem either? Just sounds like
the cheapest "guess" so far if you ask me. That may translate to
reputable to you, but...
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:35:10 -0400, "James" <jnipp...@nospamfdn.com>
wrote:
Will Honea
> First, the crank sensor IS the engine speed sensor to the TCM.
>
> Your "reputable" guy wants to start by throwing parts at it first?
> Before he checks anything? Before he even tries to duplicate the
> problem? No guarantee it'll fix your problem either? Just sounds like
> the cheapest "guess" so far if you ask me. That may translate to
> reputable to you, but...
Best comment yet! If you can't find, how you gonna "fix" it?
--
Will Honea
PeterD
wrote:
Jack up the radiator cap and drive a new JGC under it... Works for all
problems except cooling system ones.
Will Honea
The way things have been going here lately, it would turn out that the
problem was a bad radiator cap!
--
Will Honea
DougW
Actually I had that problem once... kept loosing fluid because the rad
cap vented too easily and startet to blow bubbles into the overflow tank. :)
I've found that changing CDs also works. From my truck to the Jeep.
I'd change my mind but they don't offer a core refund.
--
DougW
James
For those of you who have been following this thread, I thought
I would provide an update.
Since my last post, I had my jeep mechanic pull and reseat all
fuses, relays, etc etc. He replaced the CPS (2nd time) as well
as the cam positon sensor. He also replaced the battery cable
ends as well as checked all the grounds, all wiring, the plug to the
PCM, etc.
Well, I guess it was too good to be true, thinking that my Jeep
problem was completely fixed. Although I drove the jeep for three
weeks and over 500 miles before
I experienced any problem, I have recently had the following glitches,
some of which are precisely the same symptoms as before (engine
shutting down.... all gauges to zero.... engine crank but not restart until
at least an hour later) while the other glitch scenerio is new.
Glitch # 1 (new):
While sitting stopped and the transmission shift in the "park"
position, running the engine just to keep the air conditioning on
while I wait to get started, the engine just simply shuts off very
abruptly. However, the gauges do not flip to zero like they have done
with my chronic problem, and I am able to restart the engine
immediately. Please note that this has happened on three different
occasions, all while I am sitting parked with the engine idling at
about 700 rpms. (If I had not been having what appears to be chronic
electrical or computer related problems, I would have suspected some
fuel-delivery problem such as a fuel filter, fuel pump, etc. )
Glitch # 2 (original problem)
In addition to the above unusual glitches, I did have two repeats of
the original problem. While driving down the highway at 60
mph, the engine abruptly shut off, and all of my gauges went to zero
(by the way, the radio stayed on). I allowed the car to
slow down so that I could find a safe place to stop, and when I slowed
down to approximately 30 mph, the gauges all abruptly came back on and
the engine started running again! Again, I have only had this happen
twice during my 500 miles of driving three weeks after my last repair.
One thing that I had not noted before, as I did not recognize it as a
possible
"pattern." On two of the engine and gauge shutdown episodes, they occured
as I had just completed a low-speed "U" turn. As I fully completed the
turn,
the engine shut down, and the gauges went to zero. After I waited about an
hour
after each glitch, the gauges would again return to normal, and the engine
started
just fine.
************************************************************
From everything that I have
read and have been told, including some comments here, it seems that
I may well have a "flaky" PCM.
After reviewing the history of this, what would be your next best attempt at
repair ?
Is it "more likely" or "less likely" that it is the PCM ??
Could a flaky pcm cause an abrupt engine shutdown with gauges being disabled
and the car not start again right away in one glitch, and later cause an
engine shutdown
when the car just shuts off, but gauges stay normal, and it will restart
right away ?
Thanks for staying with this thread, and any continued interest and ideas...
I do
appreciate it...
James
Greg
had a mustang years ago, same thing, dead no gauges, first time happened on
a rainy dark night, on a 1 road island, no street lights, that was little
too out of a movie for us. Anyway father-in-law had us sit in driveway with
engine running as he poked and proded every wire and connection in engine
bay, eventually finding one plug that would shut it down everytime.
"James" <jnipp...@nospamfdn.com> wrote in message
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