u-chatusa.com
Sandra Irick
All are welcome
webtv friendly
main policy of NO harassment
Come check us out
The server: irc.u-chatusa.com
Igor2
like server advertisements. If you still post your adv here, you will:
1. start a flamewar on alt.irc
2. risk that viper starts to abuse you
3. not get too much real users on your network
Thank you for not posting untolerated articles here
Igor2
----
"You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
"You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
"_You_ are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
Jacob News
[snip]
>----
>"You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
>"You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
>"_You_ are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
This is not a signature, you bottom-feeding top poster. Signatures are
two dashes, a space, and a newline, are at the bottom of a post, and
customarily are restrained to four lines or less.
Of course, I could go into how childish it makes you look to quote me
in your posts only because I quoted you in my signature. My quote of
you is actually quite complimentary (if I wanted to make you look bad,
you have given a wealth of material to choose from, but I did not do that)
because it expresses, quite succinctly, the astonishment that people like
you have always had when trying to impose your morals on us here. You are
not the first, and you certainly won't be the last...
But of course, you just go right on ahead and do what you want and don't
mind us mean, nasty, viscious people. *pats igor's head condescendingly*
-Jacob
--
jn...@epicsol.org
Four "what's wrong with you people?"
Lines <pt...@hszk.bme.hu>
Suffice. <Pine.GSO.4.40.0111281923590.10020-100000@ural2>
Igor2
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Jacob News wrote:
> Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
<snip>
> This is not a signature, you bottom-feeding top poster. Signatures are
> two dashes, a space, and a newline, are at the bottom of a post, and
> customarily are restrained to four lines or less.
Ok, i fixed now so you can be happy (read below:)
> Of course, I could go into how childish it makes you look to quote me
> in your posts only because I quoted you in my signature. My quote of
> you is actually quite complimentary (if I wanted to make you look bad,
> you have given a wealth of material to choose from, but I did not do that)
> because it expresses, quite succinctly, the astonishment that people like
> you have always had when trying to impose your morals on us here. You are
> not the first, and you certainly won't be the last...
Actually you used that sentence because you tohught i would be angry or
something, and i haven't raisen my voice against it, now you feel like
haven't earn the stuff after invested somehting... Anyway you explained
why do you use my quote as a signiture, so i explain why do i use
yours: it shows clearly what arguments do you use to defend your opinion.
If your opinion is real right, and mine is wrong, you can use your logic
to prove it with arguments. It's a pretty usual mistake to use something
like "i'm right because you are stupid" as an argument, and you really
like to do so, this why I quoted you.
> But of course, you just go right on ahead and do what you want and don't
> mind us mean, nasty, viscious people. *pats igor's head condescendingly*
blabla, you quoted me, I quoted you. Both quotes are from public articles.
I haven't said that you shouldn't do that (as you maybe expected) and you
haven't said that i shouldn't use those quotes. So whats this argue all
about again?
It is pointless. I think you should open a new thread called "igor2 is
stupid" r something, if it makes sense for you, because what you have
written has nothing to do with the topic the posting had.
> -Jacob
> --
> jn...@epicsol.org
> Four "what's wrong with you people?"
> Lines <pt...@hszk.bme.hu>
> Suffice. <Pine.GSO.4.40.0111281923590.10020-100000@ural2>
>
and the new version is here, if you still find somehting wrong, post it in
private, i think the others don't care about our argues here. Here it is
4 lines even with the "--"
--
chika
<pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> On this newsgroup there are less than 10 users who publicly said that
> they like server advertisements. If you still post your adv here, you
> will:
> 1. start a flamewar on alt.irc
The only person currently starting flames around here is you.
> 2. risk that viper starts to abuse you
As if that is going to worry anyone.
> 3. not get too much real users on your network
So what? That ain't your business.
Jacob News
>Actually you used that sentence because you tohught i would be angry or
Now there you go again. I did not use that sentence for any such reason.
You're delusional, in addition to being inferior. Many people have come
into alt.irc over the years and tried to force us to conform to their
wishes, and all have (so far) failed to do so. Many have expressed severe
shock and horror at how nasty and vitriolic we can be when defending our
"turf" against interlopers. I thought that your quote put the entire matter
into perspective in a way that I have never seen any previous interloper
able to grasp, and for that, I felt you were worthy of memorialization.
Your phrase "What is the matter with you people?" is a compliment of the
highest order for people like me, because it expresses that you really
and truly thought that there was something mentally or emotionally distrubed
about people like me because I could not be persuaded by just the mere
presentation of your confused and self-contradictory ideas on how we should
be behaving. A pitiful and naiive sentiment on your part, but yet earnest,
honest, and well-intentioned, albeit there was never a chance in hell you'd
be successful.
But please -- continue on with your rationalizations and interlineations
of what my true motives were. I quite enjoy reading fiction.
>Here it is 4 lines even with the "--"
>--
>"You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
>"You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
>"_You_ are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
><u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
>
Alas, you either tried to make lines that were too long (78 columns is
a commonly practiced limit) and your newsreader wrapped them for you,
as it should do, or you just forgot how to count. Which offense shall
we add to your list of grievances against this community?
And your appeal to "take this to email" is grossly off-base. This is a
flame group and you have stumbled in and started bumbling around when you
didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Now is the time to play
the game and to entertain us. Dance, plebian!
Jacob News
>> 2. risk that viper starts to abuse you
chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>As if that is going to worry anyone.
Viper hasn't shown back up here since @home shut off its at&t customers.
Either that means he is laying low, or hasn't procured alternate access
just yet. Perhaps we shall enjoy the pleasure of his absence during the
short respite.
I will of course remind Tony that he will have to ready yet another entry
into his Kill Knife(tm) once Viper does secure alternate access.
chika
<pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> and the new version is here, if you still find somehting wrong, post it
> in private, i think the others don't care about our argues here. Here it
> is 4 lines even with the "--"
> --
^ Error 1
A signature is started with two hyphens, a space and a carriage return.
> "You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
> "You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
> "_You_are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
^ Error 2
Four lines is the standard signature. A line is defined as a single row of
up to 67 characters or as many characters as does not cause a wraparound.
^ Error 3
A signature is supposed to indicate the user's ID and other information of
that sort. It is not meant to contain a summary of insults given to them,
no matter how accurate they happen to be.
chika
> chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> >As if that is going to worry anyone.
> Viper hasn't shown back up here since @home shut off its at&t customers.
> Either that means he is laying low, or hasn't procured alternate access
> just yet. Perhaps we shall enjoy the pleasure of his absence during the
> short respite.
Shh! He might hear you! ;)
Tony Miller
Sandra Irick <sandr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A new IRC server is up and running
>All are welcome
>webtv friendly
How are you WebTV friendly?
>main policy of NO harassment
How do you define harassment, and how do you keep people from doing it?
>Come check us out
>The server: irc.u-chatusa.com
-Tony
--
Reliable, "eggable" Unix shell accounts. http://www.jtan.com/proshell/
cl00bie @ IRC - /server cookie.sorcery.net 9000, http://www.sorcery.net
We welcome WebTV'ers - http://www.sorcery.net/help/index.html#WebTV
Tony Miller
Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
>[ignor2 said]
>>> 2. risk that viper starts to abuse you
>
>chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>>As if that is going to worry anyone.
>
>Viper hasn't shown back up here since @home shut off its at&t customers.
>Either that means he is laying low, or hasn't procured alternate access
>just yet. Perhaps we shall enjoy the pleasure of his absence during the
>short respite.
>
>I will of course remind Tony that he will have to ready yet another entry
>into his Kill Knife(tm) once Viper does secure alternate access.
Hahaha... Kill knife... Wasn't that a Bianco-ism? :))
>-Jacob
Tony Miller
Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
<Snip>
Umm... You still need a clue. "--" isn't right. "-- " is.
>--
>"You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
>"You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
>"_You_ are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
You forgot to add "A signature is 2 dashes and a space you bottom
feeding..." whatever.
Get it right.
Chaz
"Sandra Irick" <sandr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:835aac97.01120...@posting.google.com...
> A new IRC server is up and running
Reported.
PS. Apologies for my lateness.
Jacob News
>>I will of course remind Tony that he will have to ready yet another entry
>>into his Kill Knife(tm) once Viper does secure alternate access.
Tony Miller <to...@cigardiary.com> wrote:
>Hahaha... Kill knife... Wasn't that a Bianco-ism? :))
Q: How can you tell the difference between an alt.irc newcomer, an
alt.irc neo-snob, and your garden variety child-porn supporting
intolerant elitist bastard?
A: One boasts of their victories of the GREAT IRC WAR OF 1997, another whiles
away the hours trolling clueless folk, and the other spews great amounts
of insipid drivel.
It is left as an exercise to the reader to figure out which is which.
Don't try this at home. Void where prohibited. Your milage may vary.
Jacob News
>> A new IRC server is up and running
Chaz <ch...@ro0t.com> wrote:
>Reported.
Clueless wanker wastes valuable time of ISP's abuse department by
reporting on-topic posts as spam! Fails to understand why his report
was not taken seriously! Story at 11!
>PS. Apologies for my lameness.
No apologies needed.
Chaz
"Jacob News" <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote in message
news:u0o2vlq...@corp.supernews.com...
As far as I am aware, Google is not an ISP.
Please don't alter posts when quoting.
Regards, Chris.
Tony Miller
You're useless. Into the kill knife with you.
*Plonk*
Tony Miller
Mark <ma...@pi8.com> wrote:
>to...@cigardiary.com (Tony Miller) wrote in
>news:slrna0ntq...@io.jtan.com:
>
>>>A new IRC server is up and running
>>>All are welcome
>>>webtv friendly
>>
>> How are you WebTV friendly?
>
>So much so I almost went there just to ask :)
I know how *we're* WebTV friendly. We have a proxy that turns the WebTV
client into a semi useful IRC client. I thought maybe they had a better
way that we could use.
Igor2
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Jacob News wrote:
> Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> >Actually you used that sentence because you tohught i would be angry or
> >something, and i haven't raisen my voice against it, [...]
>
> Now there you go again. I did not use that sentence for any such reason.
So neither me, those sentences jsut look good :)
> You're delusional, in addition to being inferior. Many people have come
> into alt.irc over the years and tried to force us to conform to their
> wishes, and all have (so far) failed to do so. Many have expressed severe
> shock and horror at how nasty and vitriolic we can be when defending our
> "turf" against interlopers. I thought that your quote put the entire matter
> into perspective in a way that I have never seen any previous interloper
> able to grasp, and for that, I felt you were worthy of memorialization.
Never tried to force on you anything, only suggested to try to write the
truth. As you can see, I realized that you don't erally want that, so i
switched my method too (using your definition for balance).
> Your phrase "What is the matter with you people?" is a compliment of the
> highest order for people like me, because it expresses that you really
> and truly thought that there was something mentally or emotionally distrubed
> about people like me because I could not be persuaded by just the mere
> presentation of your confused and self-contradictory ideas on how we should
> be behaving. A pitiful and naiive sentiment on your part, but yet earnest,
This is what you think, not what I wrote. Of course if you grab out one
sentence, one can agree with you. Same about the quotes I use: if i grab
them out like I did, one would say that you never use your logic or you
never use any real arguments to protect your opinion.
> honest, and well-intentioned, albeit there was never a chance in hell you'd
> be successful.
In what you think i wanted to be successful? In that i guess no. In what i
wanted to be successful seems I already am...
> But please -- continue on with your rationalizations and interlineations
> of what my true motives were. I quite enjoy reading fiction.
>
>
> >Here it is 4 lines even with the "--"
> >--
> >"You're a putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> ><u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
> >"You're truly a dope." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> ><u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
> >"_You_ are a clueless putz." from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> in
> ><u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
> >
>
> Alas, you either tried to make lines that were too long (78 columns is
> a commonly practiced limit) and your newsreader wrapped them for you,
> as it should do, or you just forgot how to count. Which offense shall
> we add to your list of grievances against this community?
Someone in another said 67... Anyway the lines here are long lines and
here i even have a space after the "--".I guess my news reader program
wrapped the lines and ate the space. Whatever, i changed the form of it so
nothing to wrap on, and if that space is deleted after the hyphens, than
sorry, take it as not a signiture but random characters at the end of the
article.
> And your appeal to "take this to email" is grossly off-base. This is a
> flame group and you have stumbled in and started bumbling around when you
> didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Now is the time to play
> the game and to entertain us. Dance, plebian!
Ok, if you want to keep up flames here, so go on. You couldn't find
anything important about my last posting, so you replied about the
signituer. Whats next? Complain about my english (that I know is bad)?
Maybe about my news client (I _DO_ have a pretty hard erason to use PINE,
altough they aer much better clients out there for reading/posting news)?
As long as you write anything that can be taken as a real argument, i will
answer. If you write something that is not releated to the topic, that is
not a logical way to protect your opnion or attack my argument, i will
simply cut it from the reply and place a "*". (If you want to say that
I'm stupid, rather open a new thread called "Igor2 is stupid").
> -Jacob
> --
> jn...@epicsol.org
> Four "what's wrong with you people?"
> Lines <pt...@hszk.bme.hu>
> Suffice. <Pine.GSO.4.40.0111281923590.10020-100000@ural2>
>
Next article is from chika, simply nothing to answer in it (because *
mentioned above).
Tony: thanx for pointing me out that space again. And again: i know what a
space is, i know how to write it, and i also did it, my pine ate it up :)
So the new one (i checked the space twice, if it disappears, sorry about
pine, at least no long lines to wrap):
--
Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
"You're a putz." in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
"You're truly a dope." in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
"_You_ are a clueless putz." in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
chika
Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
> "You're a putz." in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
> "You're truly a dope." in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
> "_You_ are a clueless putz." in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
^ Error 1
Repeated error: This is not a signature. Don't make me come over there...
Tony Miller
Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
>Ok, i answer in only one article
>
>On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Jacob News wrote:
<Snip>
>> Alas, you either tried to make lines that were too long (78 columns is
>> a commonly practiced limit) and your newsreader wrapped them for you,
>> as it should do, or you just forgot how to count. Which offense shall
>> we add to your list of grievances against this community?
>
>Someone in another said 67... Anyway the lines here are long lines and
>here i even have a space after the "--".I guess my news reader program
>wrapped the lines and ate the space. Whatever, i changed the form of it so
I'm assuming you're using pine to read mail (from the Message-ID). If so,
go into your configuration and into the [Composer Preferences] and [X]
Enable Sigdashes. Pine will do it right for you.
If you're using some windows thing, I can't help you.
My suggestion is to use a better reader like tin or slrn (my favorite) if
you're using unix.
>nothing to wrap on, and if that space is deleted after the hyphens, than
>sorry, take it as not a signiture but random characters at the end of the
>article.
"--" doesn't delineate a .sig. "-- " does. Many readers can be
configured to ignore .sigs, or not quote them when replying. When you
don't follow convention you piss off folks who have to look at the insipid
drivel in your signature.
(BTW, Jacob has MUCH better insults than that. He used to use great ones
on me. Hang around, remain clueless and you'll see most of his
repetoire).
>> And your appeal to "take this to email" is grossly off-base. This is a
>> flame group and you have stumbled in and started bumbling around when you
>> didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Now is the time to play
>> the game and to entertain us. Dance, plebian!
>
>Ok, if you want to keep up flames here, so go on. You couldn't find
>anything important about my last posting, so you replied about the
>signituer. Whats next? Complain about my english (that I know is bad)?
Yup, spelling flames are probably next. And grammar is up for grabs too.
>Maybe about my news client (I _DO_ have a pretty hard erason to use PINE,
>altough they aer much better clients out there for reading/posting news)?
(See above)
>As long as you write anything that can be taken as a real argument, i will
>answer. If you write something that is not releated to the topic, that is
>not a logical way to protect your opnion or attack my argument, i will
>simply cut it from the reply and place a "*". (If you want to say that
>I'm stupid, rather open a new thread called "Igor2 is stupid").
No, that would be foolish because that would be the thread that never
ended in alt.irc :)
<Sig snipped>
>Next article is from chika, simply nothing to answer in it (because *
>mentioned above).
>
>Tony: thanx for pointing me out that space again. And again: i know what a
>space is, i know how to write it, and i also did it, my pine ate it up :)
You're welcome. Now check out the sigdashes I told you about :))
>So the new one (i checked the space twice, if it disappears, sorry about
>pine, at least no long lines to wrap):
Pine isn't bad, but slrn is SO much better. It comes with a full featured
scripting language, and a scoring killfile, so you can score posts
(including those from folks you *enjoy* reading).
>--
>Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
>"You're a putz." in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
>"You're truly a dope." in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
>"_You_ are a clueless putz." in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
Let me add...
"When it comes to flaming, you are truly out of your league" -- Tony
Jacob News
>Ok, if you want to keep up flames here, so go on. You couldn't find
>anything important about my last posting, so you replied about the
>signituer.
It is not that I could not find anything important about your last posting
but rather I felt it was not neccesary to further ridicule you on the bulk
of your last posting: you do such an excellent job of self-parody already.
One does not try to teach a pig to dance; it only makes you look foolish
and irritates the pig. I will spend more one-on-one time with you when
you are ready, but you are not yet ready for that.
MJ Ray
>My suggestion is to use a better reader like tin or slrn (my favorite) if
>you're using unix.
>Pine isn't bad, but slrn is SO much better. It comes with a full featured
>scripting language, and a scoring killfile, so you can score posts
>(including those from folks you *enjoy* reading).
While we're topic drifting, can you tell me if there's a way to enable
unicode or MIME in slrn?
Do any ircds support unicode yet? What obstacles are there? Do any talkers
support unicode yet?
Igor2
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:36:22 +0100,
> Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> >Someone in another said 67... Anyway the lines here are long lines and
> >here i even have a space after the "--".I guess my news reader program
> >wrapped the lines and ate the space. Whatever, i changed the form of it so
>
> I'm assuming you're using pine to read mail (from the Message-ID). If so,
> go into your configuration and into the [Composer Preferences] and [X]
> Enable Sigdashes. Pine will do it right for you.
Thanx (the first usable reply in this thread;)
> If you're using some windows thing, I can't help you.
>
> My suggestion is to use a better reader like tin or slrn (my favorite) if
> you're using unix.
I'm on unix. The problem is that in the 90% i'm using this account, i do
it from terminals directly connected to the computer. Our root restricted
all the shells from termianls to pine (means if you sit at the terminals,
you get /usr/bin/pine in /etc/passwd; no bash under it), so i have to use
this. The other problem is that he (for some unrecognized reasons) also
disabled us to edit the config from the terminal. Now as i'm not on those
terminals, i set the things you suggested :)
> >nothing to wrap on, and if that space is deleted after the hyphens, than
> >sorry, take it as not a signiture but random characters at the end of the
> >article.
>
> "--" doesn't delineate a .sig. "-- " does. Many readers can be
> configured to ignore .sigs, or not quote them when replying. When you
> don't follow convention you piss off folks who have to look at the insipid
> drivel in your signature.
Yes, I thought that programs need it, and this why that stick definition.
However, i try to do my best to generate the signiture that is accepted.
Anyway this was the first time when someone pointed out that my client was
wrapping lines and was eating spaces, and I guess it is normal that i
don't read back my messages after I posted them ;)
> (BTW, Jacob has MUCH better insults than that. He used to use great ones
> on me. Hang around, remain clueless and you'll see most of his
> repetoire).
I guess so, at least his english is much better than mine. Whatever, I
think the important thing is not the hardness of his repetoire, but the
usage. I selected the above 3 randomly. Anyway it is not cluelessnes. If
it were, he wouldn't need to use a argument like those.
> >> And your appeal to "take this to email" is grossly off-base. This is a
> >> flame group and you have stumbled in and started bumbling around when you
> >> didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Now is the time to play
> >> the game and to entertain us. Dance, plebian!
> >
> >Ok, if you want to keep up flames here, so go on. You couldn't find
> >anything important about my last posting, so you replied about the
> >signituer. Whats next? Complain about my english (that I know is bad)?
>
> Yup, spelling flames are probably next. And grammar is up for grabs too.
Let's wait, maybe he has even better (and more) ideas...
<snip>
> >As long as you write anything that can be taken as a real argument, i will
> >answer. If you write something that is not releated to the topic, that is
> >not a logical way to protect your opnion or attack my argument, i will
> >simply cut it from the reply and place a "*". (If you want to say that
> >I'm stupid, rather open a new thread called "Igor2 is stupid").
>
> No, that would be foolish because that would be the thread that never
> ended in alt.irc :)
At least i wouldn't answer them, so filtering out the worthless parts of
these long postings would save time ;)
<snip>
> Pine isn't bad, but slrn is SO much better. It comes with a full featured
> scripting language, and a scoring killfile, so you can score posts
> (including those from folks you *enjoy* reading).
I think i will try out this slrn (altough in the 90% of the time I'm
forced to use pine). Anyway the other client i have tried was tin. I guess
that's between pine and slrn in amount/quality of services. Bad thing that
the root doesn't want to hear about anything else than PINE as shell from
the terminals ;)
> >--
> >Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
> >"You're a putz." in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
> >"You're truly a dope." in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
> >"_You_ are a clueless putz." in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
>
> Let me add...
>
> "When it comes to flaming, you are truly out of your league" -- Tony
>
> -Tony
>
> --
> Reliable, "eggable" Unix shell accounts. http://www.jtan.com/proshell/
> cl00bie @ IRC - /server cookie.sorcery.net 9000, http://www.sorcery.net
> We welcome WebTV'ers - http://www.sorcery.net/help/index.html#WebTV
>
hmm, i think i won't repeat the signiture as it can be readed above.
Igor2
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Jacob News wrote:
> Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
> >Ok, if you want to keep up flames here, so go on. You couldn't find
> >anything important about my last posting, so you replied about the
> >signituer.
>
> It is not that I could not find anything important about your last posting
> but rather I felt it was not neccesary to further ridicule you on the bulk
> of your last posting: you do such an excellent job of self-parody already.
> One does not try to teach a pig to dance; it only makes you look foolish
> and irritates the pig. I will spend more one-on-one time with you when
> you are ready, but you are not yet ready for that.
The good old method: "I can't find any of his arguments bad, I can't tell
new srong arguments, so I simply say he is stupid". I think I am ready
right now, at least I never used worthless arguments as you just did.
Whatever, you seem a _bit_ paranoid because you still think that i wanted
to teach you anything or force you to do anything, altough I said n times
(where n>10) that I didn't. Or maybe you just don't read what i write,
just answer with the universal argument that beats anyhting.
I think this is the right place to answer chika too, as the level of the
two articles are the same. So take those lines as not a signiture but only
random characters. (2nd time I say it and i guess 2nd time you ignore it).
and now the test with the new settings suggested by Tony:
--
Igor2
Hmm, i think ircd should be transparent for unicodes (unless you want to
use it in nicknames). If client handles unicodes in the same way as they
handle ctcp and colors, an ircd simply doesn't need to deal with them.
The only places where ircd would be needed to change is nick/channel name
handling. But if one's client doesn't support unicode, he wouldn't be able
to join such a channel or kick such a nick from his channel
(unless the client doesn't check any sintax about them)
Anyway I have seen japanese chats on ircnet with wicked encoding, so they
already solved a similar problem ;)
bye
Igor2
Jacob News
>The good old method: "I can't find any of his arguments bad, I can't tell
>new srong arguments, so I simply say he is stupid".
Actually it's laziness on my part. I don't expend much energy on the
hopeless because it's a waste of everybody's time.
>I think I am ready right now,
As you wish. Commander, ready the snipes! Captain, engage the insult beam!
Sergent, ready those ad-hominem attack troops and await my command!
>--
>from Jacob News <jn...@epicsol.org> wrote:
>"You're a putz." in <u0ac02b...@corp.supernews.com>
>"You're truly a dope." in <u0ae4bs...@corp.supernews.com>
>"_You_ are a clueless putz." in <u0abe61...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>
You still have blank lines at the bottom of your signature.
Tony Miller
Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
<Snip>
>hmm, i think i won't repeat the signiture as it can be readed above.
The past tense of read isn't readed, it's "read" (spelled the same,
pronounced "red".) Don't want to disappoint :)
David Schwartz
> > Do any ircds support unicode yet? What obstacles are there? Do any talkers
> > support unicode yet?
> Hmm, i think ircd should be transparent for unicodes (unless you want to
> use it in nicknames). If client handles unicodes in the same way as they
> handle ctcp and colors, an ircd simply doesn't need to deal with them.
How do you get that? Can't unicode characters contain embedded nuls,
carriage returns, and linefeeds?
> The only places where ircd would be needed to change is nick/channel name
> handling.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that nearly everything would have to change.
Unless you want to allow unicode only for the text part and then encode
the unicode into a form that includes no embedded 0s, 10s, or 13s.
DS
Chaz
news:slrna0ojh...@io.jtan.com...
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:11:41 -0000,
> Chaz <ch...@ro0t.com> wrote:
> >
> >"Sandra Irick" <sandr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:835aac97.01120...@posting.google.com...
> >> A new IRC server is up and running
> >
> >Reported.
> >
> >PS. Apologies for my lateness.
>
> You're useless. Into the kill knife with you.
>
> *Plonk*
>
> -Tony
Don't judge me; you don't know me.
Chris
Igor2
I think it's better to use some encoding on unicode to avoide embedding
those characters. Get a mirc and write a server that sends a quit msg
that cointains a 0, a 10 or a 13 in the kicked nickname. Mirc would crash
(at least the versions i tested around 5.61 all did). I guess it's because
mirc was coded to expect a kick reason (even is empty, a ":" is sent). If
the nickname contains a character that terminates the parsing of the
message, mirc would have no kick reason and would crash. Maybe it is bad
coding, but i think it just uses the comfort that rfc gives ;)
So if you change the code of ircd in that way, only unicode clients will
be able to use your network (no backward compatibility). Also think about
the user interface. If you are from Spain, it would be natural to have
spanish characters mapped on your keyboard. If you say that nickname
should be unicoded too, than you could use a real spanish characters there
too. If a German friend of you want to remember your nick to /query you,
he wouldn't be able to type it unless selecting those special characters
from a huge table (or mapping his keyboard to spanish, but than if he has
a Russian friend too, he is in trouble;)
Anyway there is already some sort of encod that doesn't need special
characters: check html's unicode implementation.
bye
Igor2
Igor2
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Tony Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:27:00 +0100,
> Igor2 <pt...@hszk.bme.hu> wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> >hmm, i think i won't repeat the signiture as it can be readed above.
>
> The past tense of read isn't readed, it's "read" (spelled the same,
> pronounced "red".) Don't want to disappoint :)
OK, thanx, at least this last flame war brings some results (fixing pine
settings and improving my english:)
> -Tony
>
Igor2
Cory C. Albrecht
>On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Schwartz wrote:
>> Igor2 wrote:
>> > > Do any ircds support unicode yet? What obstacles are there? Do any
> talkers
>> > > support unicode yet?
>> > Hmm, i think ircd should be transparent for unicodes (unless you want to
>> > use it in nicknames). If client handles unicodes in the same way as they
>> > handle ctcp and colors, an ircd simply doesn't need to deal with them.
>> How do you get that? Can't unicode characters contain embedded nuls,
>> carriage returns, and linefeeds?
Unicode UCS-2, the most common variant seen these days, uses 16 bits or 2
bytes per character as compared to the single 8-bit byte of the ASCII
variants. As you mention, any Unicode text string would, from a single-byte
character point of view, appear to contain characters like carriage returns
(ASCII 0x0D) or line feeds (ASCII 0x0A) which are not supposed to be in an IRC
protcol message except as a terminating marker (a CR+LF, just like a line of
DOS/Windows text), or a NULL (ASCII 0x00) which aren't supposed to appear at
all. Since a NULL (0x00) is used as a string terminator in C/C++ anything
written in C/C++ would most likely inappropriately truncate protocol messages
containing Unicode characters where the high 8 bits were 0. And there's no
telling how various clients and ircds would react to an isolated CR (like
0x040D, "Cyrillic Capital Letter I With Grave") or LF (like character 0x040A,
"Cyrillic Capital Letter NJE") - it would be implementation dependant.
So no, the IRC protcol would not be Unicode transparent.
>> > The only places where ircd would be needed to change is nick/channel name
>> > handling.
>> Actually, I'm pretty sure that nearly everything would have to change.
>> Unless you want to allow unicode only for the text part and then encode
>> the unicode into a form that includes no embedded 0s, 10s, or 13s.
>I think it's better to use some encoding on unicode to avoide embedding
>those characters. Get a mirc and write a server that sends a quit msg
>that cointains a 0, a 10 or a 13 in the kicked nickname. Mirc would crash
>(at least the versions i tested around 5.61 all did). I guess it's because
>mirc was coded to expect a kick reason (even is empty, a ":" is sent). If
>the nickname contains a character that terminates the parsing of the
>message, mirc would have no kick reason and would crash. Maybe it is bad
>coding, but i think it just uses the comfort that rfc gives ;)
>So if you change the code of ircd in that way, only unicode clients will
>be able to use your network (no backward compatibility). Also think about
>the user interface. If you are from Spain, it would be natural to have
>spanish characters mapped on your keyboard. If you say that nickname
>should be unicoded too, than you could use a real spanish characters there
>too. If a German friend of you want to remember your nick to /query you,
>he wouldn't be able to type it unless selecting those special characters
>from a huge table (or mapping his keyboard to spanish, but than if he has
>a Russian friend too, he is in trouble;)
>Anyway there is already some sort of encod that doesn't need special
>characters: check html's unicode implementation.
I assume you're thinking of the UTF-7 or UTF-8 encodings that the HTML spec
borrowed from the MIME specs?
Anyways, regardless of however one would encode Unicode text so that it could
pass through present ircds unharmed and inidcate that it was so encoded, only
the client that came up with it would be able to understand it until other
clients jumped on the bandwagon - and that would be a very big if. I can just
imagine a major balkanisation of encodings with every different client using a
different format creating a controversy bigger than the mIRC colour codes.
Personally, I would like to see a future versionof the IRC protcol that would
use Unicode UCS-2 for anything textual - nicknames & channel names in addition
to PRIVMSG, NOTICE, KICK & PART text. But I doubt Unicode-ified IRC3 is going
to surface anytime soon.
In the meantime, the best we can do is make clients codepage aware. I'm
currently working on an IRC client which is codepage aware but internally uses
Unicode UCS-2. What this means is is that any incoming text is translated from
a given codepage into Unicode which is displayed to the user. What this means
is that the user could define channel #paris as using the Windows-1252
codepage and chat in French with all the accented letters and define channel
#moskva to use Windows-1251 and chat in Russian using proper Cyrillic
characters there. My client is limited only by what codepages are installed
the machine it is running on and, for multi-byte codepages (like CP932 aka
Shif-JIS and otehrs for Chinese, Japanese & Korean) whose encodings do not
have NULLs or other characters incompatible with the IRC protocol.
When my client is ready, I hope it will be a viable alternative client for
Windows users wanting to chat on IRC in languages other than English and
especially for multilingual users speaking languages with different,
incompatible codepages. I hope to have a public beta test version out early in
2002.
--
Cory C. Albrecht
MJ Ray
>Unicode UCS-2, the most common variant seen these days, uses 16 bits or 2
I thought unicode UTF-8 was the common variant? I'm not sure that I've ever
seen UCS-2 in the wild.
Contention
>Personally, I would like to see a future versionof the IRC protcol that would
>use Unicode UCS-2 for anything textual - nicknames & channel names in addition
>to PRIVMSG, NOTICE, KICK & PART text. But I doubt Unicode-ified IRC3 is going
>to surface anytime soon.
Leafchat uses RTF-8, for future reference... hacking the server to
use unicode shouldn't be that hard at all?, but then none of the popular
clients would work. Or define a "unicode" connection type (perhaps on
separate ports, the way SSL connections work), and have the parser
handle them differently.
Assuming anything that has no ASCII equivalent gets stripped when
dealing with non-unicode clients, the second method wouldn't allow
nick/channel names to contain unicode, just chat (which can already be
achieved using UTF-8...). However, a network like Dalnet might get away
with providing this "as a service", and then switching to Unicode-only
when the clients began to support it. It would have to be a big network
to get the client authors interested in the first place.
I don't know if the major networks would see any percentage in a
large-ish project like that. Depends how many of their users want it.
(Any admin from major networks feel like commenting on the
feasability/desirability? :P)
Contention.
--
Andrew J. Shore
Polynomian ("Many names, no personality") [DragonCode on request]
Interests: Maths, Dragons, Science Fiction & Fantasy, Anime, Computing,
et cetera, et-bloody-cetera. Quote: <whine>"I'm tired"</whine>
Cory C. Albrecht
The UTF in UTF-7 or UTF-8 stands for Unicode Transformation Format. UTF-7 and
UTF-8 are ways of turning a string of 16-bit Unicode UCS-2 characters into a
string of 8-bit characters, mostly for transmission through a protocol that
assumes any data coming through it is 8-bit single-byte character data (and
probably would be adversely affected by what would appear to the protocol to
be controlling characters of some sort).
Technically Unicode characters are 20 bits wide. Originally it was thought
that 16 bits would be enough to represent all writing systems for all
languages with plenty of room left over for mathematic, scientific and other
symbols. This turned out not to be the case so the extra 4 bits were added and
the old 16 bit space is called the Basic Multilingual Plane or UCS-2 (Unicode
Character Set, 2 bytes). When people refer to "Unicode text" they are usually
referring to UCS-2 characters of the "original" Unicode (now the BMP). Rarely
(as of yet) one might see somebody refer to UCS-4 characters. These are 32-bit
values used to hold full-sized Unicode characters - the BMP and all the
extensions beyond it.
When you say that you thought UTF-8 was the common variant, in one sense you
were right. That is how Unicode is most often output for email, newsgroups and
HTML pages - "the wild" as you put it. But most programmes that use Unicode
characters, when they load UTF-7/8 encoded data they will "un-transform" it
from something that can safely be stored in a C char[] array (the UTF-7/8
encoded data) into memory as a wchar_t[] array. The type wchar_t is a typedef
which on some systems is defined as a short int, which limits them to UCS-2,
and as a long int on others.
--
Cory C. Albrecht
Cory C. Albrecht
>Cory C. Albrecht <coryal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Personally, I would like to see a future versionof the IRC protcol that would
>>use Unicode UCS-2 for anything textual - nicknames & channel names in addition
>>to PRIVMSG, NOTICE, KICK & PART text. But I doubt Unicode-ified IRC3 is going
Oops, my bad! I merant to say the QUIT message, not PART.
>>to surface anytime soon.
> Assuming anything that has no ASCII equivalent gets stripped when
>dealing with non-unicode clients, the second method wouldn't allow
>nick/channel names to contain unicode, just chat (which can already be
>achieved using UTF-8...). However, a network like Dalnet might get away
>with providing this "as a service", and then switching to Unicode-only
>when the clients began to support it. It would have to be a big network
>to get the client authors interested in the first place.
As long as the UTF-7/8 transformation of a unicode channel name or nickname
does not include disallowed characters and is not too long, there's no reason
why I couldn't type in "/join #Salé+Pelletier" and my client would send to
the server the "JOIN #Salĩ+Pelletier", and when receiving from the server
"Noël:!use...@domain.com PRIVMSG #Salĩ+Pelletier :Hello skating fans!" my
client would do the proper conversion and display greetings from somebody
apparently called Noël in the channel I think is called #Salé+Pelletier.
Yes, things would look odd to people using clients that didn't use UTF-7/8 in
this manner, but I think that in English channels people would accept the
rare funny characters like that when somebody used an accented letter in the
occasional non-English word. In channels where the language is one other than
english which uses accented Roman letters they'd probably accept the funny
characters knowing what they really are, just like e' and e` were used in
French newsgroups years ago or o: and a: in German, and there would
probably also be some willingness to upgrade or switch to a new client that
would correctly handle this UTF-7/8-isation of IRC - speakers of non-Roman
alphabet languages probably even more willing.
This could all be done on the client end without the ircds being any the
wiser. The only problem I forsee would be that if a client which just UTF-7/8
encodes everythign going out and decodes everythign going in. If in the
encoding being used were UTF-7 then ":Bytor!co...@fenris.dyndns.org MODE
#canada +b *!*@*.org" would on the way from the server turn into
":Bytor!co...@fenris.dyndns.org MODE #canada *!*@*.org" or on the way out to
the server "MODE #canada +b *!*@*.org" would become "MODE +ACM-canada +-b
+ACoAIQAqAEAAKg-.org" - both of those obviously unacceptable. And I'm sure
that somewhere there's a similar screw up possible while using UTF-8. Client
writers would have to write their programmes so that only certain parts of the
raw IRC protocol messages are encoded or decoded, not the whole message, which
gives us the potential for some rather fun bugs. :-)
So for the time being I think that only the final parameter which follows a :
in the PRIVMSG, NOTICE, KICK & QUIT messages should be "Unicode-ified".
UTF-7/8 encoding shouldn't cause any problems in those places.
--
Cory C. Albrecht
MJ Ray
I've got unicode-friendly newsgroup access here at last...
Cory C. Albrecht
>Thanks for the clarifications Cory! On a tenuously related point, I think
>I've got unicode-friendly newsgroup access here at last...
No problem. Trying to write an IRC client which uses Unicode internally and
can intelligently turn that into something which can be transmitted via the
current IRC protocol has made me familiar with all of this. For a while I felt
like I was even dreaming in Unicode UCS-2 (little endian, of course, since
I'm programming for Intel hardware :-) )! :-)
My hope for the future of IRC is that it will eventually switch to Unicode,
and that as bandwidth increases people will stop complaining that Unicode is 2
bytes per character instead of just one. (A specious complaint, IMO, since
many ircds gzip their server<->server links.)
--
Cory C. Albrecht