New 2wire at&t DSL install
do...@43.usenet.us.com
The installation went poorly.
I could connect to the modem/router from one wired computer, but it would
hang painting router internal pages. Another wired computer would fail
to get a DHCP address. They both worked fine at a different location.
I could not connect to http://homeportal. The supposed initial redirect of
any address only worked one time.
I phoned the ever helpful technicians. The first thing they wanted me to
do was replace the "T" splitter with the "wall mount" splitter. If that
had worked, that would be his final fix, to leave a wall mount plate
hanging from my phone jack. ;-(
He was sure I had a bad splitter because of noise on the line, even after I
told him we were on a cell phone, not the DSL line.
Then it was the fault of my laptop, no wait, my desktop. No wait, it's my
Symantec firewall. My WiFi client must be of poor quality. After a reset
of the modem to factory defaults (which he can do but I can't), I was able
to get a DHCP address on my wired connection, and disabled my WiFi.
Opening IE wanted to go to my home page, and eventually failed. It would
find the IP address according to the status line, but wouldn't connect.
It did not do the captive portal redirect to the setup page that it was
supposed to do. He had me connect to 192.168.1.254 instead.
ping www.yahoo.com would sometimes be 952mSec, sometimes 19mSec. That's
obviously a third party application on my laptop slowing down the ping.
Resetting the modem/router/gateway to factory defaults about three
different times magically let me stumble through the problems on my PC.
On direction of the technician, I had to delete all of my cookies.
I had to reset my IE6 to default configuration.
I had to disable my firewall and virus scan, which must still have been
causing the pings to run 200mSec even after they were disabled.
I had to ipconfig /renew every once in a while, and I had to close the CMD
window after each time.
The download of the setup tool, which he says is local in the router, would
hang for 20-30 seconds, and then download at 300KBpS. We debated whether a
failure rate of "less than one percent" represented 1 in 100 or 1 in 11
million.
Now it works... sort of. It is apparently very important that my email
works. That seems to be the proof that the router is installed and
working. I could hear his supervisor making comments about customers that
think they know more than the support techs.
He had me adjust the WiFi to a power level of 10 from the default of 4, and
change the channel from 1 to 10. Now, my AR5211 built in WiFi can connect
as long as I have line of site, and I'm within about 10 feet.
On the other computer, my old DLink DWL-122 USB dongle sees nothing unless
it's within about 5 feet. The new Belkin F5D7050 USB dongle finds the AP,
asks for the WEP key, then drops back to the screen to generate a new
profile, asking for the WEP key. Turning off the Belkin client and using
WZC, I get connected, and then it drops after a minute or two.
When I scan for networks, a neighbor a few hundred feet away shows up at
the same signal level as the 2wire, on the PC or the laptop.
Is the 2wire 2701 a piece of junk, or do I just have a bad one?
I did get a dslreports speedtest at 2761 on a wired connection. I don't
know if it is just unstable as all get out, or what. DSL is new here in
town. Maybe it's just not fully baked yet. But that shouldn't affect my
connection from PC to router.
I'm going to daisy-chain a Linksys BEFW11S4 router as a WAP and see if that
gives decent WiFi.
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
Jeff Liebermann
>I just installed an at&t DSL setup with a 2wire 2701HG-B WiFi gateway.
>I could not connect to http://homeportal.
Try:
<http://gateway.2wire.net/>
instead. See Appendix A "To activate your Internet account" in the
2701 Installation docs. If you don't have Install docs, download them
from:
<http://www.2wire.com/pages/pdfs/2701_installation_guide.pdf>
Also the User Guide at:
<http://www.2wire.com/pages/pdfs/5100-000326-000.Rev.A.pdf>
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Try:
> <http://gateway.2wire.net/>
> instead. See Appendix A "To activate your Internet account" in the
That worked the first time, but it hung somewhere further in the process,
and I never saw the base page again. I could see the URL in the previous
addresses dropdown, but it didn't work. I don't know if it's a one-time
use, or if mine is bad.
I was able to get to the more advanced setup, noted on the dslreports
pages, http://gateway.2wire.net/setup, but not the basic one. I can't
recall now if I got there by IP address or name. The name shows in
"history" for yesterday.
After tech support resetting the modem remotely, I was able to get to the
basic setup pages again, so I think that's a one time shot, at least on my
modem. Now that it is working, I'll visit again today, to see if that
basic setup is still available. I went to the basic setup pages by IP
address each time yesterday. Tech support never even mentioned the name
when the initial redirection didn't work, which they insisted was due to
cookies on my machine.
I turned off the 2701 Wifi, cabled in a Linksys BEFW11S4 as a WAP, and I
have stable performance at much greater range. I talked to another guy
with a 2701, and he is happy with the WiFi performance through a couple of
interior walls at the default WiFi settings, and I am not happy at max
power, so I think I'll give tech support another call today.
Jeff Liebermann
>Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>> Try:
>> <http://gateway.2wire.net/>
>> instead. See Appendix A "To activate your Internet account" in the
>
>That worked the first time, but it hung somewhere further in the process,
>and I never saw the base page again. I could see the URL in the previous
>addresses dropdown, but it didn't work. I don't know if it's a one-time
>use, or if mine is bad.
It's NOT one-time. I've used the URL to get to the setup page many
times on more than one 2wire router after initial installation.
However, I usually can't remember the URL so I just go directly to the
gateway IP address as:
<http://192.168.1.254/>
Don't forget the "/" at the end. It often fails without it.
>I was able to get to the more advanced setup, noted on the dslreports
>pages, http://gateway.2wire.net/setup, but not the basic one. I can't
>recall now if I got there by IP address or name. The name shows in
>"history" for yesterday.
Are you perhaps changing the IP address of the router in the setup?
That can cause weird problems is you use the name instead of the IP
address. The DNS cache might have the old IP address and not
recognize the change. The fix is to exit the browser, run:
ipconfig /flushdns
and try again. I forgot the Linux equivalent incantation.
Incidentally, there's nothing coming from the internet that's causing
a DNS lookup failure. I just tried to ping gateway.2wire.net and got
"unknown host".
>After tech support resetting the modem remotely, I was able to get to the
>basic setup pages again, so I think that's a one time shot, at least on my
>modem. Now that it is working, I'll visit again today, to see if that
>basic setup is still available. I went to the basic setup pages by IP
>address each time yesterday. Tech support never even mentioned the name
>when the initial redirection didn't work, which they insisted was due to
>cookies on my machine.
Yep. IP address always works for me. Also, the built in web server
in the 2wire seems to prefer seeing a / at the end of the URL.
Have you requested a new firmware load from support? They can
initiate that remotely.
>I turned off the 2701 Wifi, cabled in a Linksys BEFW11S4 as a WAP, and I
>have stable performance at much greater range. I talked to another guy
>with a 2701, and he is happy with the WiFi performance through a couple of
>interior walls at the default WiFi settings, and I am not happy at max
>power, so I think I'll give tech support another call today.
Did you try cranking up the wireless power setting in the setup?
One problem might be coincidence, but you have at least two (setup
weirdness and lousy RF wireless range). The long yahoo ping might a
sign of additional problems. Try pinging the ISP gateway address
instead.
Methinks there's sufficient justification to request an exchange. Is
there a warranty shipping label and instructions in the box?
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> >Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
> It's NOT one-time. I've used the URL to get to the setup page many
> times on more than one 2wire router after initial installation.
> However, I usually can't remember the URL so I just go directly to the
> gateway IP address as:
> <http://192.168.1.254/>
> Don't forget the "/" at the end. It often fails without it.
That brings up the status page, where I can do "stuff", but it's not the
guided tour initial setup.
From there, the "setup wizard" in the lower right corner goes to the
advanced setup noted on the dslreports page. The other setup options are
on other tabs, just the "ez startup" is missing.
> Are you perhaps changing the IP address of the router in the setup?
Nope. I generally leave stuff at default until it's all working, and then
I start adjusting.
> Incidentally, there's nothing coming from the internet that's causing
> a DNS lookup failure. I just tried to ping gateway.2wire.net and got
> "unknown host".
It was something in the router that was bad, and probably still is bad ;-(
The router returns its own DNS entries, and the initial setup is probably
keyed by whether the password exists or not.
> Yep. IP address always works for me. Also, the built in web server
> in the 2wire seems to prefer seeing a / at the end of the URL.
The IP address works, and I suspect that is why tech support doesn't bother
describing the name.
> Have you requested a new firmware load from support? They can
> initiate that remotely.
I'd rather have a new router.
> Did you try cranking up the wireless power setting in the setup?
I went from 4 to 10, which makes it barely tolerable for a range of 15
feet.
> One problem might be coincidence, but you have at least two (setup
> weirdness and lousy RF wireless range). The long yahoo ping might a
> sign of additional problems. Try pinging the ISP gateway address
> instead.
Now that I have a Linksys WiFi connection, I haven't noticed any problems
with the yahoo pings. Maybe the router was working too hard on WiFi to
handle wired traffic. The 2wire Wireless is disabled.
> Methinks there's sufficient justification to request an exchange. Is
> there a warranty shipping label and instructions in the box?
Now I am using the DSL, and the box is in another location.
I need a bigger car.
w_tom
> I just installed an at&t DSL setup with a 2wire 2701HG-B WiFi gateway.
> The installation went poorly.
>
> hang painting router internal pages. Another wired computer would fail
> to get a DHCP address. They both worked fine at a different location.
Sounds so much like using Windows to find a lose AC power cord.
Everything that follows was way to complex, utter confusing, involves
too much equipment and variables, and does not even break the problem
down into parts.
Well, most support techs do not even understand simplest concepts
that even a Ham radio Novice would understand. For example, a very
first number required was signal strength observed by each computer
and in various locations. That dB number is routine with Dell
Computers (using Dell's WiFi software also called WLAN Card Utility).
That software should be standard from every computer manufacturer or
from the WiFi card manufacturer. Such information is not available
from Windows utilities AND is essential for breaking a problem down
into parts - then solving each part. Trying to solve such problems
using only Windows is a nightmare.
Instead the tech simply shotgunned - i.e. increase signal strength
from 4 to 10. What the untrained do when they have not a clue. Did
this because he had neither a clue nor any training how to solve
problems using a diagnostic mental process. He could only shotgun.
Without those signal numbers (signal strength or signal to noise
ratio), then everything performed may have even complicated the
problem. And then it gets more difficult. Many WiFi computer
peripheral suppliers cannot even bother to provide dB numbers since
the consumer is 'too dumb to understand numbers'. At least that is
their rationalization. Therefore you we all but told to 'piss in the
wind'.
Why would he instruct you to increase signal power from 4 to 10?
Because he first had numbers that said signal power was a problem?
No. Instead he just shotgunned - kept blindly changing things hoping
to make things work without even knowing what those changes actually
did.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> On Oct 9, 4:37 pm, d...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
> > I just installed an at&t DSL setup with a 2wire 2701HG-B WiFi gateway.
> > The installation went poorly.
> >
> > hang painting router internal pages. Another wired computer would fail
> > to get a DHCP address. They both worked fine at a different location.
> Sounds so much like using Windows to find a lose AC power cord.
> Everything that follows was way to complex, utter confusing, involves
> too much equipment and variables, and does not even break the problem
> down into parts.
But Jeff likes lots of details ;-)
> Well, most support techs do not even understand simplest concepts
> that even a Ham radio Novice would understand. For example, a very
And then you wander off in a different complex direction of what you would
like to see, but isn't available. That's not very helpful, either.
> Why would he instruct you to increase signal power from 4 to 10?
'cause it's there. A knob he could twiddle.
> Because he first had numbers that said signal power was a problem?
> No. Instead he just shotgunned - kept blindly changing things hoping
> to make things work without even knowing what those changes actually
> did.
I think that's true. The "confusing" in the first posting was the trail
that he was carving, that I was following. Set this, that, and the other
thing on my computer to defaults, clearing cookies, configurations, turning
off firewalls, and other "third party apps", in the hope that one of them
might cure his broken hardware.
Claiming that ping times of 900mSec were because of something on my
computer is ludicrous. It might have happened once upon a time, on
someone's computer. No ping? Maybe. Slow ping? I'm thinking not.
Today, I took the 2wire 2701 router home. Using an add-on client that
expresses signal strength in percentages, I see that my Netgear (channel
11) and the 2wire (channel 1) are both at "100%" with the routers about 10
feet apart, 5 feet from the laptop. As I walk away, the Netgear stays at
"100%" while the 2wire drops to 80 within 10-15 feet, 60 at 30 feet, and
then disappears, the Netgear still at 100%.
Jeff Liebermann
>That brings up the status page, where I can do "stuff", but it's not the
>guided tour initial setup.
Sorry. I misunderstood. Go to the status page with Mozilla Firefox
and look under:
Tools -> Page Info -> Links
It may be there but will hidden.
I'll be at a customers with a 2wire 2701HG on Friday or Monday and
will have some time to tinker.
>From there, the "setup wizard" in the lower right corner goes to the
>advanced setup noted on the dslreports page. The other setup options are
>on other tabs, just the "ez startup" is missing.
Well, you might be half right. Many such "wizard" setups are setup to
start when the router is set to defaults and has never been configured
or connected to the internet. Netgear routers are a good example of
this. The initial URL will give you the wizard. However, only by
RTFM or knowing the secret URL incantation, can one bypass the wizard
and go directly to the main status page. On later versions, it knows
that you've already setup the router and bypasses the wizard. Howver,
the wizard is available on the menu bar. I would think that this
would be the case with 2wire.
Neato.... I just found another router emulator. So far they have some
Dlink, WRT54g, and 2wires:
<http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
Egads, you're right. It says "Wizards" on the right, but it takes you
to advanced settings. Kinda sounds like an HTML bug. If I hit "Site
Map" (uppper right), it lists "See all setup wizards" but also goes to
the advanced settings.
Ah, foundit. Hit:
"site map" -> "Systems Setup Wizard"
That brings you to the key code. The screen says "Setup Wizard". The
emulator screws up past this point, but I think that will do the
wizard thing. Try this URL and see if takes you directly there:
<http://192.168.1.254/xslt288e.html?THISPAGE=A11>
>I generally leave stuff at default until it's all working, and then
>I start adjusting.
Y'er no fun. I tweak everything to see what it will do. Then, I
reset to defaults and do it the right way. It's all part of Learn By
Destroying(tm) or if you haven't broken it, you don't really
understand it.
>It was something in the router that was bad, and probably still is bad ;-(
>The router returns its own DNS entries, and the initial setup is probably
>keyed by whether the password exists or not.
Yep. If not the password or key code, perhaps running a checksum on
the settings in NVRAM and comparing them with the defaults. If the
same, the router hasn't been configured.
>The IP address works, and I suspect that is why tech support doesn't bother
>describing the name.
Or, like me, they also can't remember the goofy URL.
>I went from 4 to 10, which makes it barely tolerable for a range of 15
>feet.
It's broken. That's probably not going to fix itself with settings.
You've already confirmed that your test laptop is totally functional
with a BEFW11S4. The router is sick, sick, sick.
>Now that I have a Linksys WiFi connection, I haven't noticed any problems
>with the yahoo pings. Maybe the router was working too hard on WiFi to
>handle wired traffic. The 2wire Wireless is disabled.
Maybe it was doing an automagic firmware update upon initial
connection? Did you give it enough time to finish?
>Now I am using the DSL, and the box is in another location.
>I need a bigger car.
I had the same problem when I was driving a small (Dodge D50 diesel)
pickup. I could only carry so much in the front seat. So, after I
blew up the engine, I bought an Isuzu Trooper. Now, I can carry
everything I own and still have room for the groceries. By
coincidence, I spent about 4 hours yesterday doing nothing but
cleaning out the troop carrier, so I can haul magazines and dead
computers to the recycler. However, I overshot and am now looking for
something smaller that will serve the function, but with better gas
mileage. I really miss the 30+ MPG on the diesel.
Jeff Liebermann
>Sounds so much like using Windows to find a lose AC power cord.
Sorry, but that only works with the Microsoft Active-AC smart power
cord. It's plug-n-play into the wall socket, loads a DRM enabled
license to operate the power cord, checks compatibility with the
attached equipment, verifies if you've paid your assorted annual
license fees to Microsoft, and then applies power to your computer
(after checking for updates).
>Everything that follows was way to complex, utter confusing, involves
>too much equipment and variables, and does not even break the problem
>down into parts.
Yeah, I do that sometimes. I never seem to have enough equipment or
variables. I guess I can buy more equipment on eBay, but where do I
purchase more variables?
"Break the problem down into parts"? Well, I can add an axe in my
tool kit, but breaking into parts that way does tend to invalidate the
warranty. Are you sure this is a good idea?
>Well, most support techs do not even understand simplest concepts
>that even a Ham radio Novice would understand.
I'm not clear if you're referring to me or to the 2wire phone support
personality. I thought it expedient to ask before I invoke my wrath.
The US Novice class of ham radio operator was dropped in April, 2000.
As support is probably in India, their ham licensing structure is
rather different from the US. See:
<http://www.hamradioindia.org/amateur_radio/?sid=55d902f71715e596a5961f541b898bbf#howtobecome>
for the various license grades. Looks like they also don't have a
Novice license grade.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Sorry. I misunderstood. Go to the status page with Mozilla Firefox
> and look under:
> Tools -> Page Info -> Links
> It may be there but will hidden.
I might try that on Saturday.
> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
> Egads, you're right. It says "Wizards" on the right, but it takes you
> to advanced settings.
Not very Wizardly, is it?
> wizard thing. Try this URL and see if takes you directly there:
> <http://192.168.1.254/xslt288e.html?THISPAGE=A11>
That looks like a manually mangled link from the emulator, but I can piece
together what you are trying to do.
http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=A11
> Y'er no fun. I tweak everything to see what it will do. Then, I
> reset to defaults and do it the right way. It's all part of Learn By
> Destroying(tm) or if you haven't broken it, you don't really
> understand it.
I like to confirm that it's working, break it, and recover it manually. I
want to know that the base works before I fuss.
> It's broken. That's probably not going to fix itself with settings.
> You've already confirmed that your test laptop is totally functional
> with a BEFW11S4. The router is sick, sick, sick.
It's no longer sick. It died. It clicked a few times, like an old modem
trying to go off hook, and now it's dead. PS puts out +5vdc, unloaded, but
there are no lights.
> >Now that I have a Linksys WiFi connection, I haven't noticed any problems
> >with the yahoo pings. Maybe the router was working too hard on WiFi to
> >handle wired traffic. The 2wire Wireless is disabled.
> Maybe it was doing an automagic firmware update upon initial
> connection? Did you give it enough time to finish?
That's a good thought. I don't recall the time correlation of the slow
pings. When it is working well, the downloads from dslreports are so
consistently close to 2048KBytes/sec that it must be a cap. Uploads are
around 480. The 2wire status page says
Downstream Rate: 2496 kbps
Upstream Rate: 512 kbps
(I love the capitalization conventions).
The at&t DSL speed test seems to have problems of it's own. It never
reports over 400KBytes/sec down, even on my 10Mbps cable.
Oops, that's just "Irvine". "San Francisco" and "Pleasanton" are both at
8Mbps for my cable. http://helpme.att.net/dsl/speedtest/
At another location, I was puzzling over a throughput chart from NGenius (I
think a Cisco product), where two different charts in the same pdf report
output file seem to conflict. One shows "24mbps" which I can believe is a
Megabit/sec rate on a DS3, but another chart that shows usage per TCP port
shows 3mbps, which seems coincidentally close to a MegaByte/sec rate.
Warren Oates
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> However, I overshot and am now looking for
> something smaller that will serve the function, but with better gas
> mileage. I really miss the 30+ MPG on the diesel.
Chevy Tracker?
--
W. Oates
Jeff Liebermann
>Chevy Tracker?
That's one possibility I hadn't thought about. Thanks. I'm looking
for a Toyota RAV-4, Honda CR-V, or similar vehicle. I've only just
begun reading, asking, and searching so I know next to nothing about
these.
Incidentally, I just finished 3 trips to the local eWaste recycler
today in my Isuzu. It would only have been one trip with my previous
pickup truck. I also brought back a mess of wireless, network, and
salvage stuff. Cleaning the office seems hopeless and I'm just
getting started. Garbage in - garbage out.
Jeff Liebermann
>Not very Wizardly, is it?
On the contrary. Wizards are known to disappear without notice, often
with an accompanying puff of smoke. Try some magic incantations.
>> <http://192.168.1.254/xslt288e.html?THISPAGE=A11>
>That looks like a manually mangled link from the emulator, but I can piece
>together what you are trying to do.
>http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=A11
The original URL shown was rather weird. It included the previous and
the next page in the URL. At least it wasn't 3 lines long (256 chars
maximum) as I've seen on some web piles.
>> It's broken. That's probably not going to fix itself with settings.
>> You've already confirmed that your test laptop is totally functional
>> with a BEFW11S4. The router is sick, sick, sick.
>
>It's no longer sick. It died. It clicked a few times, like an old modem
>trying to go off hook, and now it's dead. PS puts out +5vdc, unloaded, but
>there are no lights.
I presume you mean the BEFW11S4. This seems odd to have two
electrical devices go up in smog at the same location. You might want
to bring an AC volts guesser and ground fault tester on saturday.
Check for creative AC wiring. Methinks it's improbable but I've been
suprised before. If the 117v 2 phase has the ground return lifted at
the breaker box, the voltage will not equalize on the two phases. You
could easily get 80VAC on one phase, and 130VAC on the other. Watch
for lights that are unusually dim or unusually bright.
>(I love the capitalization conventions).
It's a capitalist country. Get used to it. The conspiracy against
capitalization is certainly here. Note the ocassional message in this
newsgroup in all lower case. Someone out there hates capitalists.
>The at&t DSL speed test seems to have problems of it's own. It never
>reports over 400KBytes/sec down, even on my 10Mbps cable.
>Oops, that's just "Irvine". "San Francisco" and "Pleasanton" are both at
>8Mbps for my cable. http://helpme.att.net/dsl/speedtest/
You have to pick the correct location. It's often not the closest.
For example, my Santa Cruz IP address resolves to the router in San
Francisco, even though Santa Clara is much closer. Same with other
DSL lines that terminate all over the SF Bay area.
>At another location, I was puzzling over a throughput chart from NGenius (I
>think a Cisco product),
Sorta. One version uses Netflow, which is a Cisco feature:
<http://www.netscout.com/products/pm_home.asp>
I don't have any experience with it.
>where two different charts in the same pdf report
>output file seem to conflict. One shows "24mbps" which I can believe is a
>Megabit/sec rate on a DS3, but another chart that shows usage per TCP port
>shows 3mbps, which seems coincidentally close to a MegaByte/sec rate.
--
w_tom
details are completely useless - tell us nothing useful - until
fundamental information is established such as dB signal strength or
signal to noise ratios. I went laser beam direct to where your tech
support should have started if their management had properly trained
that tech support AND management (for both router and your computer)
had provided essential support utilities. Demonstrated is how a
consumer becomes a victim because essential information and tools were
withheld.
Breaking a communication problem down into parts starts with signal
strength - and not with anything that was done previously. That
information should be found in the router's server page (too often not
found) and is provided by WiFi utilities for better computers. IOW
if your computer or WiFi manufacturer does not provide such
fundamental dB numbers, then get or borrow one that does provide basic
facts. One responsible example is provided with all Dells.
Somehow, you must establish signal strength integrity. That means
getting your computer to work with another known WiFi network. Or
borrowing a computer from a more responsible manufacturer that does
have a useful WiFi utility - does report dB signal strength.
Even with Windows (and no IP addresses properly or improperly set,
encryption on or off, no channel changes, etc), see WiFi's SSID on
Windows' Wireless Internet or "View Available Wireless Networks"
page. Less useful is same information in OSX. Either way and using
grossly insufficient information - how far away is computer taken
before that network SSID name is lost? Number of feet separation - a
'walk away' test - is a useful number.
Most of above was to summarize details for others who are following
this thread.
Your utility, stated in percentages (even less useful than '5
bars'), says that with greater distance between a computer (client)
and base stations, then signal drops off so quickly to below -80 dB in
only 30 feet. If I understand your post, you have two base stations
- a 2wire 2701 and a Netgear. As you 'walk away', the Netgear signal
gets weaker but remains strong enough to maintain what is probably
reported as 100% data transfers. Not a good number - but at least
something to work with. Meanwhile, the 2wire 2701 data signal was
already so pathetic weak as to even drop below 100%. That could be a
symptom of a transceiver disconnected from its antenna. The symptom
could not be more obvious. Responsible tech support should have
identified that symptom and laser beamed in on the problem in less
than a minute. Problem was that simple.
Transceiver inside the 2wire 2701 is somehow 100% defective as best
we can tell by kludging a diagnostic utiliity - the 'walk away'
test. Why so much changing of things completely irrelevant such as
channel change, IP address, etc? No basic diagnostic utilities
reporting useful numbers and tech support devoid of any training.
Nothing involving IP address, signal changes inside the WiFi base
router, etc should have even been considered by any tech until signal
strength had been even considered. A perfect example of complexity
only because a problem was not broken down into parts. You are a
victim of gross technical stupidity from both the WiFi support utility
designer, from its tech support, and from a computer that also does
not provide dB numbers is a WiFi utility program. You had to perform a
'walk away' test because so many others did not do their jobs. But
then decades ago, Barbie said, "Math is hard." This was a simplest
problem made complex because simple diagnostic utilities AND trained
tech support was not provided.
Who was the 2wire 2701 tech support and what computer manufacturer
did not provide useful WiFi diagnostic utilities? What brands should
be all be avoiding?
On Oct 10, 8:05 pm, d...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
> But Jeff likes lots of details ;-)
> ...
>
> And then you wander off in a different complex direction of what you would
> like to see, but isn't available. That's not very helpful, either.
>
>> Why would he instruct you to increase signal power from 4 to 10?
> 'cause it's there. A knob he could twiddle.
> ...
>
> I think that's true. The "confusing" in the first posting was the trail
> that he was carving, that I was following. Set this, that, and the other
> thing on my computer to defaults, clearing cookies, configurations, turning
> off firewalls, and other "third party apps", in the hope that one of them
> might cure his broken hardware.
>
> Claiming that ping times of 900mSec were because of something on my
> computer is ludicrous. It might have happened once upon a time, on
> someone's computer. No ping? Maybe. Slow ping? I'm thinking not.
>
> Today, I took the router home. Using an add-on client that
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Chevy Tracker?
I don't see the Tracker in the 2007 EPA guide, but then we aren't talking
new, are we?
The Mercedes R320 Diesel SUV is rated 21/28 MPG.
But, I think we're talking a long payback in fuel savings ;-)
I think Jeff is more of a Honda Element (EPA 21/26) kind of guy.
Or maybe the Ford Escape Hybrid (36/31).
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:18:26 +0000 (UTC), do...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
> >It's no longer sick. It died.
> I presume you mean the BEFW11S4.
Oh, no, the 2wire died. Lots of other investigation would be spawned if a
trusty device "happened" to fail at the same site. Just for exercise, I
think I'll help another lady install a 2wire down the street, see how that
works out.
> suprised before. If the 117v 2 phase has the ground return lifted at
> the breaker box, the voltage will not equalize on the two phases. You
> could easily get 80VAC on one phase, and 130VAC on the other.
I had that happen 15 years ago. One too many devices on one leg, and the
other leg rose to the point where something burned, and a there was a
cascade of smoked devices around the house. Neutral was loose at the feed
to the fuse block.
> Watch for lights that are unusually dim or unusually bright.
My favorite bright lights this week are the 23w CFL four pack at Safeway
for $0.99. http://safeway1.inserts2online.com/pageLarge.jsp
> http://helpme.att.net/dsl/speedtest/
> You have to pick the correct location. It's often not the closest.
They all seem pretty stable, except for Irvine, which is always way low.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Breaking a communication problem down into parts starts with signal
> strength - and not with anything that was done previously. That
But the other oddities suggest that signal strength isn't the core of the
problem. A misbehaving router is. Starting with a wired connection to
prove the base is more important than reporting uncalibrated WiFi dB.
> Somehow, you must establish signal strength integrity. That means
> getting your computer to work with another known WiFi network. Or
Oh, I have done that. A lot. That is a base that the telephone folks
can't assume, but once I told them it was true, it made no difference.
> borrowing a computer from a more responsible manufacturer that does
> have a useful WiFi utility - does report dB signal strength.
That just isn't my definition of a responsible manufacturer.
> Even with Windows (and no IP addresses properly or improperly set,
> encryption on or off, no channel changes, etc), see WiFi's SSID on
> Windows' Wireless Internet or "View Available Wireless Networks"
> page. Less useful is same information in OSX. Either way and using
> grossly insufficient information - how far away is computer taken
> before that network SSID name is lost? Number of feet separation - a
> 'walk away' test - is a useful number.
Wow, that was a long paragraph, but the "walkaway test" is about 15-20 feet
with the two wire, and 60+ feet with a Netgear in the same location.
I only tested the Linksys to 20 feet, but my signal display showed a
big difference there.
> Your utility, stated in percentages (even less useful than '5
> bars'),
I disagree wholeheartedly. The numbers don't matter, a comparative scale
matters, combined with the walkaway. The chart pops up about 2/3 of the
width of the screen, with little icons for different WAPS, with a perfectly
useful 1-100 scale across the bottom. Some experience with what the low
percentages mean would be helpful, like how low does it get before the
speed drops. Jeff likes to lock the speed and perform a walkaway test, but
I always forget to lock the speed.
> If I understand your post, you have two base stations - a 2wire 2701 and
> a Netgear. As you 'walk away', the Netgear signal gets weaker but
> remains strong enough to maintain what is probably reported as 100% data
> transfers. Not a good number - but at least something to work with.
80% is a signal strength indication, not a packet loss indication.
That might have been confusing. From the help screen: "You will see a
graphical depiction of the wireless networks found. From left-to-right
across the graph, networks are shown in decreasing order of signal
strength."
> Nothing involving IP address, signal changes inside the WiFi base
> router, etc should have even been considered by any tech until signal
> strength had been even considered.
But it didn't work wired either.
> Who was the 2wire 2701 tech support and what computer manufacturer
> did not provide useful WiFi diagnostic utilities? What brands should
> be all be avoiding?
2wire, AT&T, IBM, and Microsoft seem to be the major parties at fault by
your definition. Throw Atheros, Netgear, Linksys, Belkin, and DLink onto
your stack as well.
Which alternative ones do you like?
Warren Oates
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
> That's one possibility I hadn't thought about. Thanks. I'm looking
> for a Toyota RAV-4, Honda CR-V, or similar vehicle. I've only just
> begun reading, asking, and searching so I know next to nothing about
> these.
Subaru Forester you might look at too. Trackers are cheaper, of course.
Look for a stick shift -- the automatic is a bit sluggish, I'm told. I
drove a Scirocco for 17 years, I don't like sluggish.
> Incidentally, I just finished 3 trips to the local eWaste recycler
> today in my Isuzu. It would only have been one trip with my previous
> pickup truck. I also brought back a mess of wireless, network, and
> salvage stuff. Cleaning the office seems hopeless and I'm just
> getting started. Garbage in - garbage out.
>
It's surprising how much you can put into a Tracker with the seats up.
The 4WD is very nice in the snow too, but I guess that's not something
you need to worry about.
--
W. Oates
w_tom
have been considered. But another example of trying to solve a loose
power cable by using Windows. Another example of tying to solve a
problem without first breaking problem down into simpler parts.
I thought we were solving a WiFi problem because other simpler modem/
router options were working. Long before even looking at WiFi, the
simplest hardware interface (ethernet) first must be confirmed. Even
the DSL interface would be ignored.
I am completely surprised your 2wire does not have a master reset
button to set all options to a default state. Only doing this from
the DSL interface is bogus. Are you sure there is no hole from which
to press the master reset switch?
I was under an impression that your computer hardwired to the 2wire
modem/router was displaying status screens OK. First, you are
accessing it via ethernet - not via USB - I hope. Second, the IP
address of the 2wire 'server' is usually 192.168.1.1 or 192.167.0.1.
However I see indications that yours is using 192.168.1.254. Fine.
Whatever that IP address is, we will refer to the modem/router IP
address as 192.168.x.x.
At least one computer is connected to any ethernet port. The
equivalent of WiFi signal strength is indicated by two LEDs at each
end of cable. One set on the computer; other on the 2wire. One LED
should light to indicate a connection. Otther LED may light to
indicate signal speed or blink to indicate data transfer. Nothing
else should be attempted until that condition is found good (just like
signal strength on WiFi must be established before doing anything else
with WiFi).
Now set the computer IP address to a manually set number (a static
address) such as 192.168.0.50 or 192.168.1.50. Once that address is
set, then computer (using Internet Explorer) should display server
data from 2wire modem/router. Does it? Can you enter http://192.168.x.x
and get the server home page displayed? Listed were other text
addresses that should also display that 2 wire modem/router server
home (status) page. Page should display using both addresses. This
completes a first test - computer talks to server only via ethernet
wire. Same test also works just fine with WiFi enabled or disabled.
Second test means connecting a second computer via another 2wire
router ethernet port. Set that 2nd computer to a static IP address of
192.168.x.51. Now both computers can talk to each other. Any one
computer must ping the other and do so repeatedly.
For example, a Windows computer from Command Prompt would enter
ping -t 192.168.x.50 to ping itself repeatedly. And then execute
the program
ping -t 192.168.x.51 to ping the other computer. "-t" is the option
to ping repeatedly. Both must report a response time of less than 20
milliseconds and without any missing replies.
Just another example of breaking the problem down into parts. That
router from computer to computer is a most basic functions that does
not use other functions inside the 2wire modem/router. Breaking down
the box into individual functions; then establishing the integrity
only of that function - definitively. Definitively being essential
before moving on to other unknown functions such as the WiFi function.
Now for an even better tool. If both computers use an ethernet
interface from the same manufacturer, then that manufacturer has a
diagnostic intended to both find intermittent failures AND that will
truly result in a 'definitive' conclusion. Load that manufacturer
diagnostic in both computers (meaning both are executing only the
diagnostic and not even running Winodws, OSX, or Linux).
One computer is setup as a mirror or data responder. The other (or
others) output data repeatedly in worst case forms. If the source
computer does not see data echoed back, then it reports a failure.
This test has often found ethernet failures not found by other means.
It also finds slow data transfers due to ethernet problems. IOW this
is the best test of data from and to computers via router's ethernet
ports. Again, the word is 'definitively'. A router that can process
ethernet diagnostic data in this worst case form is then
'definitively' good only on its ethernet interface.
BTW, these worst case ethernet tests can be executed with WiFi
enabled and disabled. Now we are taking a known good part of the modem/
router and expanding those test out into other modem/router functions.
Does enabling or disabling WiFi interfere with that worst case data
transfers? WiFi on or off should not make any difference.
Of all tests proposed, this worst case data transfer between
computers of same ethernet manufacturer is 'the' most comprehensive
(definitive) diagnostic to establish router's ethernet port
integrity. Once ethernet port integrity is established, then move on
to other suspects (functions) inside that modem/router.
Final point - signal strength is not measured in percent. For
example, how many dB is a 0% signal? It cannot exist. The log() of
zero is how many dB? How many dB in a 100% signal. No such
mathematical relationship exists. WiFi signals may be lost at -80dB.
What is that in percent? Maybe they intended percent to measure
signal strength. If so, we have more reasons to suspect poor
technical knowledge on their end. Percent of data transfered makes
sense. Percent of maximum possible bandwidth (54 mb) makes sense.
Percent of signal strength reports deceptive information - a number as
informative as '5 bars'.
On Oct 11, 9:58 pm, d...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
> But the other oddities suggest that signal strength isn't the core of the
> problem. A misbehaving router is. Starting with a wired connection to
> prove the base is more important than reporting uncalibrated WiFi dB.
>
>> Somehow, you must establish signal strength integrity. ...
> Oh, I have done that. A lot. That is a base that the telephone folks
> can't assume, but once I told them it was true, it made no difference.
> ...
>
> 80% is a signal strength indication, not a packet loss indication.
> That might have been confusing. From the help screen: "You will see a
> graphical depiction of the wireless networks found. From left-to-right
> across the graph, networks are shown in decreasing order of signal
> strength."
> ...
Jeff Liebermann
> I am completely surprised your 2wire does not have a master reset
>button to set all options to a default state.
The 2wire 2701HG has a factory reset button on the rear panel. Look
for the tiny red circle.
Be prepared to re-enter the keycode. For PBI/SBC/AT&T, it's probably:
522P-22P4-6262-22AT-F2NV
<http://www.2wire.com/index.php?p=268>
nevtx...@gmail.com
> Yeah, I do that sometimes. I never seem to have enough equipment or
> variables. I guess I can buy more equipment on eBay, but where do I
> purchase more variables?
Try eVariables.com, a venture capitol spin off of eVowels.com funded
by "Wheel of Fortune".
w_tom
> I never seem to have enough equipment or variables. I guess
> I can buy more equipment on eBay, but where do I purchase
> more variables?
Just stand in the middle of a room. Throw that middle finger at
everyone. You will get all the variables you can handle.
Jeff Liebermann
Ummm.... you're behind the times. Prefixing buzzwords with an "e"
went out a few years ago with the dot com bust. Todays high fashion
domain names are the same buzzwords, but prefixed with an "i", such as
the iPhone and iGoogle. My guess is this fashion will fizzle in about
a year, to be replaced by one of 24 remaining alphabetic prefix
characters.
nevtx...@gmail.com
> Ummm.... you're behind the times. Prefixing buzzwords with an "e"
> went out a few years ago with the dot com bust. Todays high fashion
> domain names are the same buzzwords, but prefixed with an "i", such as
> the iPhone and iGoogle. My guess is this fashion will fizzle in about
> a year, to be replaced by one of 24 remaining alphabetic prefix
> characters.
iSee
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> The 2wire 2701HG has a factory reset button on the rear panel. Look
> for the tiny red circle.
That seemed to be a simple reboot, and not a factory reset, even when held
during a power cycle.
> Be prepared to re-enter the keycode. For PBI/SBC/AT&T, it's probably:
> 522P-22P4-6262-22AT-F2NV
That is the setting in mine, and wasn't lost with the technician-driven
reset that required reentry of the password.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> instead. See Appendix A "To activate your Internet account" in the
> 2701 Installation docs. If you don't have Install docs, download them
> from:
> <http://www.2wire.com/pages/pdfs/2701_installation_guide.pdf>
> Also the User Guide at:
> <http://www.2wire.com/pages/pdfs/5100-000326-000.Rev.A.pdf>
Those guides lead to an install CD, which is no longer required. The newer
installation is held in the router.
The AT&T online pages aren't current, either. The
http://helpme.att.net/article.php?item=3 page doesn't have the 2wire 2701,
and the online installation instructions refer to the CDROM.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Neato.... I just found another router emulator. So far they have some
> Dlink, WRT54g, and 2wires:
> <http://www.supportshots.com/two_wire/index.html>
> Egads, you're right. It says "Wizards" on the right, but it takes you
> to advanced settings. Kinda sounds like an HTML bug. If I hit "Site
> Map" (uppper right), it lists "See all setup wizards" but also goes to
> the advanced settings.
That one bears some resemblance to mine, but either there is a difference
in firmware revision, or at&t has selected features. The emulator says
Qwest in a few places, some of the screens are different, and I don't find
the diagnostics listed in the 2wire User Guide, "Troubleshooting - Resets
Page".
The emulator:
2700HG-D Gateway Software: 4.25.19-QT01
Mine is a 2701HG-B, I don't have the software level, but I suspect that QT
is Qwest-specific. 52HP-2374-A3A2-22A2-B2LP might be Qwest, or it might be
bogus. It doesn't appear on http://www.2wire.com/index.php?p=268
Someone says that is a good Qwest number.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18411140-What-is-the-most-recent-qwest-firmware
> Ah, foundit. Hit:
> "site map" -> "Systems Setup Wizard"
> That brings you to the key code. The screen says "Setup Wizard". The
> emulator screws up past this point, but I think that will do the
> wizard thing. Try this URL and see if takes you directly there:
> <http://192.168.1.254/xslt288e.html?THISPAGE=A11>
The emulator takes you to the page to enter the key, which doesn't happen
on my factory reset router.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> Oh, no, the 2wire died.
The new 2wire arrived.
The EZ-setup was easy, although it just sort of ends at a normal yahoo web
page. It doesn't say "tada, you are finished, enjoy surfing this nice
yahoo page".
The WiFi signal strength is the same as the Linksys.
On the AR-5211/Thinkvantage laptop, they both drop off to the same bar
graph percentage at a distance, on the desktop Belkin USB dongle they show
roughly the same unnumbered bar graphs for "link quality" and "signal
strength".
Jeff Liebermann
>do...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
>> Oh, no, the 2wire died.
>The new 2wire arrived.
>The EZ-setup was easy, although it just sort of ends at a normal yahoo web
>page. It doesn't say "tada, you are finished, enjoy surfing this nice
>yahoo page".
I think it restarts at the end, which lands you on the web browsers
default home page.
>The WiFi signal strength is the same as the Linksys.
Did you remember to crank up the tx power in the router somewhat? I
think the default is 35-50mw. It can be increased to about 350mw
(which is overkill).
>On the AR-5211/Thinkvantage laptop, they both drop off to the same bar
>graph percentage at a distance, on the desktop Belkin USB dongle they show
>roughly the same unnumbered bar graphs for "link quality" and "signal
>strength".
Good enough. Don't forget to change the encryption for WEP to
WPA-PSK.
do...@43.usenet.us.com
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:34:29 +0000 (UTC), do...@43.usenet.us.com wrote:
> >page. It doesn't say "tada, you are finished, enjoy surfing this nice
> >yahoo page".
> I think it restarts at the end, which lands you on the web browsers
> default home page.
I didn't notice the delay of a reboot. Or maybe it ... I don't know. No
fanfare though, just sitting at a Yahoo page.
> Did you remember to crank up the tx power in the router somewhat? I
> think the default is 35-50mw. It can be increased to about 350mw
I might even turn it down ;-) It covers the area that we want. No need to
send my signal splattering about the countryside.
> Don't forget to change the encryption for WEP to WPA-PSK.
I'm not sure about that one yet. I want to share the signal. I don't want
it to be a problem for anyone.
I had a problem with one desktop/Belkin USB cycling the connection which
reminded me of 802.1x malfunctions. No "Authentication" tab in the
connection properties, though. I set it in the registry instead, and
the connection is stable.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/910387/en-us
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/931856