Payne Heat Pump Noise
RSC
I have a new Payne heat pump we purchased in the summer. Now that the
unit is in winter operation the noise is driving us crazy! The unit
is quite and heats the house great but every 1.5 hours or so is lets
out a sound like an airplane taking off. I belive it puts itself in
reverse to keep the outside coils from freeing up. But should it be
so loud that it wakes people up?
I should have been weary of an obviouse knock-off of "Train" heat
pump. Is this realy going to be a Payne in the butt? My insurance
company replaced my York with the bottom of the barral I guess right?
One last thing, it's running off the York thermistat, could the
mismatch be causing the problem? Any thoughts would be great!
Thanks
RSC
www.schmooseme.net
jamesgangnc
you are hearing. Some units are noisy when they do that. You should still
call the installer and let them check it.
"RSC" <rscel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ca4adcc-bb3b-45a7...@18g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
lp13-30
intended to be confused with Trane. Payne may actually have been around
longer than Trane. Payne is made by Carrier corp, and from a reliability
standpoint is fairly decent, but they have to be the noisiest POS ever
made. I have spent hours trying to quiet them down and stop the rattling
panels, with very limited success. The York stat should not cause your
problems. Did a home warranty company install this unit? Around here, it
seems most Payne equipment is mixed and matched with little concern
about compatibility. Larry
RSC
since July and never heard the noise until heating season, so I'm ass-
u-me ing, the defrost is only needed in the winter. The unit works
great and the house has never been warmer even with an ice storm that
coated the entire unit. But to coin a phrase from the Grinch: The
noise, the noise, the noise, noise, noise, noise........
I mean, it really is loud, and it not a rattling sound it's more
like ... did you ever hear an electric fogger or electric paint
sprayer buzz? It's that sound only 3 times as loud. Emagine that
sound every 1.5 hours all night long, every night. The crazy thing
is, the dog sleeps right through it!
But you all agree, maybe I should have the installer back for a
checkup? (it's going to cost me $50. deductable).
RSC
The Freon Cowboy
Richard
If the head pressue is running excessively high at the beginning of
the defrost cycle, then the changeover will be excessively noisy as
well. If head pressure is high at the end of the defrost cycle you'll
have the same noise issue. In the former case the likely culprits
would be low indoor airflow or an overcharge. In the latter case a
stuck or incorrectly located defrost sensor would be the likely
culprit.
Have you checked the air filter? If it's clean then you might want to
have a professional look the system over.
Other than that, yes, as the other poster said, Paynes are typically
noisy in a vibration/rattling sense. That doesn't seem to be what
you're referring to though.
HTH.
RSC
Funny you should say the beginning and ending. The first noise lastes
about 7 seconds then about 3min later I get a noise equally as loud
but only for 3 sec. My filter is a bit dirty so I'm going to replace
the filter this weekend and monitor the start and finish noise, then
report back here.
At least I have a plan to follow now!
Thanks
RSC
Richard
There was a service bulletin sent out on this. It recommended a "quiet
shift" defrost board to alleviate this noise problem (that exists on
some models). Ask your local Carrier, Bryant, or Payne dealer about
this. What the board does is shut the compressor down for one minute
and then starts it back up with the reversing valve switched.
Your unit may already have one of these boards. There is a dip switch
on the upper right hand corner that says "quiet shift" above it. It
can be switched on or off. We leave them in the off position unless
there are noise complaints.
RSC
Well, that's some great information. This is a brand new unit so I
would assume the dip-switch is present. Even if there were no noise
complaints, it seems to me that jamming the compressor in reverse
rather then shutting it down, then going in reverse, would be better
for the compressor's longjevity.
I can't wait to try this!
RSC
I found the circuit board but no sign of a dip-switch.
I posted some pictures at http://www.schmooseme.net/payne-in-the-ear.htm
I'd love to get my hands on this circuit board and install it myself.
I know the home warrenty service would never pay for it, would you
belive they would not pay for the legs this unit has to sit on?
Thanks for your help Richard!
RSC
Noon-Air
Home warranty company??? pay for something??? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Noon-Air
"Bubba" <LiKeAlA...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:83pqm3plut8ov4qh1...@4ax.com...
> airflow that may not be correct if you have that much noise?
> Bubba
I wonder when the filter was last changed......
Zyp
I see he got the expensive Pain model, errr Payne model.
--
Zyp
Noon-Air
"Zyp" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sPmdnSM6uPBiX_Da...@championbroadband.com...
Did ya ever notice that when home owners post on here that they want *free*
advice, or *free* instructions on how to fix their 20 - 30 year old POS
furnace, its because they have already screwed with it and they ended up
with a lot more damage than they started with. And all because they were too
cheap to call a *competent*, licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC
technician to diagnose and correct the original problem. Then there is the
thought of <gasp> replacing the furnace.... they can drive brand new cars,
and live in nice homes, but can't be bothered to get their comfort systems
serviced, or replace them when their past their design service life.
What kills me is that they call us rip-offs when it would have been a whole
lot cheaper to pay a competent tech, and get it done right in the first
place.
Richard
> "Zyp" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:sPmdnSM6uPBiX_Da...@championbroadband.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Noon-Air wrote:
> >>news:83pqm3plut8ov4qh1...@4ax.com...
> >>> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:38:49 -0800 (PST), RSC
> >>> <rscelibe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Not so Lucky....
>
> >>>> I found the circuit board but no sign of a dip-switch.
> >>>> I posted some pictures at
> >>>> hands on this circuit board and install it myself. I know the home
> >>>> warrenty service would never pay for it, would you
> >>>> belive they would not pay for the legs this unit has to sit on?
>
> >>>> Thanks for your help Richard!
>
> >>>> RSC
>
> >>> You do know that you most likely have a unit that is overcharged and
> >>> airflow that may not be correct if you have that much noise?
> >>> Bubba
>
> >> I wonder when the filter was last changed......
>
> > I see he got the expensive Pain model, errr Payne model.
>
> Did ya ever notice that when home owners post on here that they want *free*
> advice, or *free* instructions on how to fix their 20 - 30 year old POS
> furnace, its because they have already screwed with it and they ended up
> with a lot more damage than they started with. And all because they were too
> cheap to call a *competent*, licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC
> technician to diagnose and correct the original problem. Then there is the
> thought of <gasp> replacing the furnace.... they can drive brand new cars,
> and live in nice homes, but can't be bothered to get their comfort systems
> serviced, or replace them when their past their design service life.
>
> What kills me is that they call us rip-offs when it would have been a whole
> lot cheaper to pay a competent tech, and get it done right in the first
>
> - Show quoted text -
Usually, but that doesn't apply to the OP, yet. The unit is in fact
new, and the complaint is valid. Noise is not covered by the standard
warranty unless there is a defective part causing it, and even then
only the part is covered. In this case the parts work, but the
engineering could be said to have failed. I'm not fond of bad
engineering, so I tend to be sympathetic to its victims. Both the
part and the labor should be covered by Carrier for the upgraded
board. It isn't the customers fault that Carriers engineers produced a
piece of shit unit.
Richard
> On Dec 23, 8:48 am, "Noon-Air" <Noon-...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Zyp" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:sPmdnSM6uPBiX_Da...@championbroadband.com...
>
> > > Noon-Air wrote:
> > >> "Bubba" <LiKeAlAkErem...@iname.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:83pqm3plut8ov4qh1...@4ax.com...
> > >>> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:38:49 -0800 (PST), RSC
> > >>> <rscelibe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>> Not so Lucky....
>
> > >>>> I found the circuit board but no sign of a dip-switch.
> > >>>> I posted some pictures at
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thought it best for my own sake to add this:
Not all of their units are pieces of shit, but that one is. OTOH,
competition causes all manufactures to offer builders grade systems.
Even so, if they can't produce a cheap unit that doesn't wake up the
neighbors then they should send spies out to the other manufactures to
figure out how they manage to do it. I worked on exactly the same
model unit just last week, and it was a noisy SOB. I guess I still
have some pissed-offedness left over from that. There's nothing I can
do to quieten the unit short of replacing it. :)
There is a market for cheap, but damn!
Jeffry Lebowski
"Noon-Air" <Noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6sydncY-GI3L6PPa...@comcast.com...
Bullshit Steve he hasn't messed with the fucking unit it at all far as I can
tell simply stated it either has a defective reversing valve or it has one
that is too fucking small for the job replace it with one that has a big
enough coil so it can quickly shuttle the spool regardless of head pressure.
--
ranto...@mail.com
Noon-Air wrote:
>
>Did ya ever notice that when home owners post on here that they want *free*
>advice, or *free* instructions on how to fix their 20 - 30 year old POS
>furnace, its because they have already screwed with it and they ended up
>with a lot more damage than they started with. And all because they were too
>cheap to call a *competent*, licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC
>technician to diagnose and correct the original problem. Then there is the
>thought of <gasp> replacing the furnace.... they can drive brand new cars,
>and live in nice homes, but can't be bothered to get their comfort systems
>serviced, or replace them when their past their design service life.
>
>What kills me is that they call us rip-offs when it would have been a whole
>lot cheaper to pay a competent tech, and get it done right in the first
>place.
>
Or they had a bad experience with a company like George Brazil, which
also employs technicians who are licensed, insured, and professionally
trained (are there any volunteers who do HVAC training?).
Noon-Air
"Jeffry Lebowski" <Nope@nono> wrote in message
news:vJ6dnYr6N-6T_vLa...@scnresearch.com...
Read all of the previous posts in this thread.
Zyp
Actually there are;
Training can come in the form of RSES Chapters [Refrigeration Service
Engineers Society] and your local assocations like, ACCA, and ASHREA to name
a few, all either free to members or some offer freebies to just anyone in
the trade.
The factories will hold one night stand(s) as refreshers all free.
Your local community colleges also have HVACR courses athough you'll have to
pay a small stipend to attend.
--
Zyp
Zyp
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:25:17 -0500, Bubba <LiKeAlA...@iname.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:38:49 -0800 (PST), RSC
>> <rscel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> airflow that may not be correct if you have that much noise?
>> Bubba
>
> steps to get better air flow. :)
Huh? What are *you* talking about? The "speed up" terminals are for timing
out the defrost cycle.
--
Zyp
Richard
> > wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:38:49 -0800 (PST), RSC
> >> <rscelibe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Not so Lucky....
>
> >>> I found the circuit board but no sign of a dip-switch.
> >>> I posted some pictures at
> >>> hands on this circuit board and install it myself.
> >>> I know the home warrenty service would never pay for it, would you
> >>> belive they would not pay for the legs this unit has to sit on?
>
> >>> Thanks for your help Richard!
>
> >>> RSC
>
> >> You do know that you most likely have a unit that is overcharged and
> >> airflow that may not be correct if you have that much noise?
> >> Bubba
>
> > He should short out the "speed up" terminals with a screwdriver a few
> > steps to get better air flow. :)
>
> Huh? What are *you* talking about? The "speed up" terminals are for timing
> out the defrost cycle.
>
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm confident that he already knew that. Must've been some other
reason for him saying that.
RSC
I finally call a Certified Carrier Engineer and he told me that he
cannot even look at it because of the miss-match in equipment. Inside
the house is all York and the outside unit is, well, a Payne. So he
could not even guess as to what the proper operating pressure should
be. Also, there is a Federal mandate issued in 01/01/2007 that
forbids mis-matched equipment above 13 SIR, because of new energy
rules? Can anyone point me to the document? Sound like I have to
deal with the insurance company and battle this mess. Also, the
serial number indicates the unit was manufactured in 2004. That seems
kind of old to me, since it was installed in mid-2007. I'm
screwed!!!!
RSC
Dr. Hardcrab
http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/central_ac_hp.html
http://www.bertieair.com/news/6/Mis-Matched_Systems:_Still_Unethical...and_Now_Illegal
I think every manufacturer out there will give you NO warranty if you
install any part of a system that
does not match the other.
lp13-30
bought up a large stock of 10 and maybe a few 12 SEER units while they
were still available. As I recall, the first 2 digits in Payne model
numbers indicate the SEER. The fact you have York inside and Payne
outside does not automatically mean the system will not work.
Mixmatching units is not a good idea, and is just begging for problems,
but sometimes works out OK. FWIW, York is not big in the residential
market here, even less so in HP's, so I am not that familiar with them
as to compatability. We VERY seldom do a mixmatch, and most of the few
we have done were replacing Lummox air handlers on 10 or less SEER
condensing units with Carrier AH's. About all you can do now is to fight
with the home warranty company, telling them that what you have now is
not satisfactory, and demand they do whatever it takes to fix it. Good
luck Larry
Zyp
Actually that's not true. Many Manufacturer's will warranty their systems
with [other indoor coils.] An example is CARRIER, who allows for the sale
of ADP coils with their systems [Advanced Distributor Products] which is a
subsidy of LENNOX.
Goodman / Amana also sells their products with ADP coils and Summit. [I'm
not saying these are great coils, I'm just pointing out the fact.] As well
ARI lists matching ratings to these coils. First Company Coils also are
sold by and allowed. Also the links provided by Dr Hardcrab leads to the
DOE discussion on mis-matching for NEW SYSTEMS and new systems only. The
other link is a contractor in Florida who [in his opinion] doesn't think
mis-matching is good. [Tell that to the coil Mfg. who manufacture coils for
larger commercial built up systems and the replacement market.].
To be quite frank on the discussion, the biggest failure on most installed
HVAC systems is air deliver and return air. You need the correct quanity of
air to reap the performance.
I am sure, because of advancements in the motor technology field, the AHU
part of the SEER equation is from the electrical usage of the motors. But
as long as you have the correct square footage [inches] for the tonnage in
surface area, [evap coil] and the correct amount of air delvery to the
conditioned space - it will perform and perform at the rated cost per btu/h.
[EER]. (Can be proven with a psycrometric chart, some simple math, a good
utility electric meter and knowledge.) And I think that the SEER ratings
are generated because of the need for marketing. Simply put the EER
rating(s) seem more to the point. Speaking of, the utility suppliers tend
to put more weight on the EER than the SEER.
Just my 2 cents worth, [which is more than I paid Paul.]
--
Zyp
Dr. Hardcrab
> Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
>> "RSC" <rscel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:dcd22026-d6b2-4880...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> I finally call a Certified Carrier Engineer and he told me that he
>>> cannot even look at it because of the miss-match in equipment. Inside
>>> the house is all York and the outside unit is, well, a Payne.
>>> So he could not even guess as to what the proper operating pressure
>>> should be. Also, there is a Federal mandate issued in 01/01/2007
>>> that forbids mis-matched equipment above 13 SIR, because of new
>>> energy rules? Can anyone point me to the document? Sound like I
>>> have to deal with the insurance company and battle this mess. Also,
>>> the serial number indicates the unit was manufactured in 2004. That
>>> seems kind of old to me, since it was installed in mid-2007.
>>> screwed!!!!
>>
>> http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/central_ac_hp.html
>>
>>
>> http://www.bertieair.com/news/6/Mis-Matched_Systems:_Still_Unethical...and_Now_Illegal
>>
>> I think every manufacturer out there will give you NO warranty if you
>> install any part of a system that
>> does not match the other.
>
> Actually that's not true. Many Manufacturer's will warranty their systems
> with [other indoor coils.] An example is CARRIER, who allows for the sale
> of ADP coils with their systems [Advanced Distributor Products] which is a
> subsidy of LENNOX.
Yeah, I didn't type what I meant.
Most manufacturers will not give you any kind of warranty if you replace
just an outdoor unit (or coil) that isn't equal to
or greater to the SEER level of the other component. In other words, if you
install a 13 SEER condensing unit and the
evaporator coil is an old 10 SEER or less, THEN you lose any kind of
warranty. I guess the same would be true if you
have a 13 SEER system and get a bad evap coil and replace it with an old 10
SEER compatible one.
I think ADP is going to end up being the only manufacturer out there! Not
complaining. The make good coils. I only wish
someone would make a high efficiency slab coil. I run into a lot of
situations where one would have made things SOOOO
much easier...
RSC
desided to call the origanal installer. (one guy working out of his
van). Carrier and Payne were of no help and never heard of the
problem so... The origanal installer informed me his distributor said
I should have no problem with the mis-match. The unit works much
better then my old one but the NOISE...
So he will be coming out to look at it. Maybe it's just a bit
overcharged? I wish I could record the noise and let you guys hear
it, just to complete this saga!
Thanks for everyones info. I will update my end results when this is
all said and done. If not here, then
http://www.schmooseme.net/payne-in-the-ear.htm
RSC
RSC
I posted a recording of the sound, check it out ! Don't be afraid to
crank up your volume to get the full extent and emagine the sound
bouncing off other houses! (at 2AM) .
http://www.schmooseme.net/payne-in-the-ear.htm
Thanks
RSC
david
i have same problem with a payne unit that was install last year
--
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