Heater Defrost Balance Point
M Harris
calling for Aux heat when the outdoor temperature hits a certain point
Steve
" M Harris" <mh at soalex.us> wrote in message
news:4cb8bf40$0$30948$8826...@blocknews.net...
> Am I correct that the 'Heater Defrost Balance Point' is the setting for
> calling for Aux heat when the outdoor temperature hits a certain point
no
The balance point is normally used on a dual fuel/hybrid system for the most
economical point to lock out the heat pump and switch over to the first
stage of a gas or oil furnace. Normally, when this configuration is used,
the furnace will not fire if the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle because
of head pressure issues.
Here in south Mississippi, I use 35F for a balance point.
David
>news:i9ah60$4op$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>no
Wonders never cease. An actual helpful answer from someone in
this group!
David
Steve
"David" <som...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:i9aihp$mbk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
If a legitmate question is asked, it gets a legitmate answer.
If its a question from somebody like a landlord or a DIY that wants
professional services for free, gets a correct answer then bitch cause its
not what they wanted to hear, they catch a load of crap.
Its like somebody calling on the phone and asking "How much is an air
condition?" Then they get their panties in a wad because they get told
"Anywhere from $4,000 to $20,000. Can't tell them anything else without
knowing a whole lot more information that they don't have, like system
configuration, desired efficiency, actual Manual J and Manual D calcs, etc.
If its broke, they don't have a clue about make, model, serial number, or
anything else, and don't want to hear that they will have to pay for a
service call to have the system diagnosed by a pro to find out whats
actually wrong with it.
Most of John Q Public think that if they replace the thermostat, their 15
year old system that has never been serviced will work again. They don't
want to hear that a thermostat is nothing more than a temperature controlled
ON/OFF SWITCH....... or that its not low on "Freezone".
Most of the standard 50 or so home owner questions that have been asked
thousands of times over the last dozen years, can be answered by a simple
google search.
We have to live with the "Walmart" mentality.... folks call all the time
looking for the cheapest service call fee, then they take it in the shorts
because the guy charges them for each of the addition 4 or 5 trips because
he didn't get it right the first time, and *still* hasn't corrected the
original problem.
I don't know about you, but I *DON'T* want the cheapest dentist, heart
surgen, general practitioner, lawyer, mechanic, or any other
professional.... I want the best. Why would you want the cheapest to
service, maintain and repair the single most expensive appliance in your
home??
M Harris
complains when HP defrosts.
Do you know what the effect of "Compressor Cycles Per Hour" setting does.
I understand it only allows X cycles but do you know if set low, say 2/hr -
will it extend the compressor run time to prevent there being a long off
time after the 2 cycle completes? There also a "Temperature Control in
Heat" which I suspect has a similiar effect of causing longer run time in
the less agressive temp control setting.
"Steve" <jste...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i9ah60$4op$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David" <som...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:i9aihp$mbk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>"Steve" wrote in message
>news:i9ah60$4op$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The Daring Dufas
Hey, my AC ain't a workin, ah thank it's the freon or the thermostat.
How much you fixin to charge me?
TDD
Steve
> Thanks Steve - going to disable until I see at what outdoor temp my
> wife complains when HP defrosts.
>
> Do you know what the effect of "Compressor Cycles Per Hour" setting does.
> I understand it only allows X cycles but do you know if set low, say
> 2/hr - will it extend the compressor run time to prevent there being a
> long off time after the 2 cycle completes? There also a "Temperature
> Control in Heat" which I suspect has a similiar effect of causing longer
> run time in the less agressive temp control setting.
Lets start with the basics.....
Where are you located??
What is the make and model of you new thermostat that your trying to set
up??
Why did you feel the need to change the thermostat in the first place??
What is the configuration of your system?? (A/C w/ Electric heat?, A/C w/
gas heat?, A/C w/ oil heat? heat pump w/ electric strips? dual fuel/hybrid?)
Make and model numbers of outside and inside units??
When were they installed??
Was the system working *before* you changed the thermostat??
When was the last time the system was serviced??
Are all the vents wide open?? even in rooms that your not using??
What type of filter are you using and when was the last time it was
changed??
Stormin Mormon
hour. I got the good freezon stuff, that be six bucks a pound.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net>
wrote in message news:i9asrs$ea8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The Daring Dufas
> Well, I usually get twenty bucks to show up. And then ten bucks an
> hour. I got the good freezon stuff, that be six bucks a pound.
>
How fur are yoo frum Sand Mountain? Ye gotta look out fer them troopers
on th state hieway. Them ol boys ill get ya.
TDD
M Harris
Steve - New unit is a Trane Xl20i w/ matching gas furnace. It's working
fine I just want to gain more manual control over it.
It replaced a dual fuel system w/ a 3 ton York HP that was installed in '79.
Old system was configured so that it there was no auto-switchover to gas and
thermostat was set loose to avoid a lot of cycling. Understand manual
control is not everyone cup of tea but I prefer it to the decisions this new
digital Honeywell thermostat is making. Basically want to do a least
some of the things was doing w/ old system. Ex. run on HP until I notice
it's not holding temp. Then I'll do manual switch. Also don't want backup
heat on during defrost cycles unless it's fairly cold out. My suspicion is
that old HP's longevity was helped by my running it for long periods w/o
short cycling it. So I also wanting to loosen the tight control the
thermostat does of the temp. This is why I'm trying to understand the
unfamiliar wording I'm seeing in the manual.
The Daring Dufas
When you say set loose, I take it to mean your former thermostat was
setup with a wide differential in set points. In other words, the
temp it cut off could have been 10� different from temp it cut on.
TDD
M Harris
Not that loose - it's default had been ~ 1degree. changed it to 2.5 degrees
Stormin Mormon
down. I can go, well, it's posted at 35 there. They never bother me. I
set the cruise control about 33. I can't go no faster, now the muffler
is clogged up like.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:i9b3ma$qb8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The Daring Dufas
I was using 10� as an extreme example. Your digital thermostat should
have adjustable set points and some thermostats have outdoor sensors
to help determine the best heat pump operation. Oh yea, what brand and
model is your new thermostat and does it have the option for an external
sensor?
TDD
M Harris
It's badged as a Trane Tcont900 which is the green background Honeywell for
4-stage heat. There is an outdoor temp sensor.
We're getting off point. Understand the system will make auto decisions
about what is necessary. I'm looking for what I need to do to get manual
control of the the system.
For example - how does one limit HP to just 1 stage heat.
Steve
First off, that control is *DESIGNED* to maintain your comfort level within
one degree as well as control humidity levels, as economically as possible.
It will provide whatever stages of heat or cool that is called for by
demand.
The comfort system is designed to maintain a constant, even temperature
throughout the entire house. The whole idea is to set and forget, let the
control do its job of controling the system. FWIW, this particular control,
when installed on an existing system will reduce utility usage by 15 - 18%
by itself when its allowed to do its job.
If the system is less than 1 year old, your best bet is to contact the
installer and have the installer make whatever changes to the control you
need, and explain all of the functions to you.
If you can't live with "set and forget" and have to keep futzing with it,
maybe you should have the installer replace the electronic control with a
mechanical one that doesn't have auto change-over, and doesn't have built in
humidity controls, and doesn't have setback with intelligent recovery to
save more energy, and doesn't accurately tell you what the inside and
outside temperatures are, and doesn't have a filter change reminder, and
doesn't have that bright red LED that tells you when the heat pump has
failed, and so on and so forth. Not to mention the 15- 18% increase in your
utility bills.
The Daring Dufas
At one time computers took up whole floors of buildings and came with
human engineers to keep them running. I envision a plastic project
box with a half dozen toggle switches incorporating a couple of
adjustable thermostats, giving it a Steampunk look would be a bonus.
I understand that the fellow wants more control over the operation
of his system perhaps because it's what he's accustom to. I prefer
manual control of some things myself but when I get tired and lazy,
it's back to auto pilot. Engineers have spent countless man hours
designing and testing modern HVAC systems in order to provide the
optimum in system efficiency so you can set it and forget it. I
understand what the gentleman wants but I don't understand why. The
system longevity is considered by the design engineers whenever a
system is put into production and it has controls to prevent short
cycling or any other detrimental operation.
TDD
Steve
> I understand that the fellow wants more control over the operation
> of his system perhaps because it's what he's accustom to. I prefer
> manual control of some things myself but when I get tired and lazy,
> it's back to auto pilot. Engineers have spent countless man hours
> designing and testing modern HVAC systems in order to provide the
> optimum in system efficiency so you can set it and forget it. I
> understand what the gentleman wants but I don't understand why. The
> system longevity is considered by the design engineers whenever a
> system is put into production and it has controls to prevent short
> cycling or any other detrimental operation.
>
> TDD
>
umpteen years ago. it ain't grampas air condioner or furnace anymore.
I have a couple of elderly customers that took MONTHS to get them to keep
their cotton pickers off the controls and let the controls do their job.
Hands free and automatic were not terms they associated with their
"thermostat"
I had one that I had to lock out because I was getting 2 and 3 calls a day
because they couldn't hear it run and kept mashing buttons on the control. I
had another one that I had to remotely mount the control out of sight and
put a non functional round one back on the wall so they had something to
play with.
Yes, these folks are technology chalanged, and yes, once they figured out
that the controls didn't have to (or need to) be touched, they are much
happier, their home is comfortable, and their utility bills went down 40 -
50% compared to what they were before they had me install their new comfort
system.
The Daring Dufas
>> I understand that the fellow wants more control over the operation
>> of his system perhaps because it's what he's accustom to. I prefer
>> manual control of some things myself but when I get tired and lazy,
>> it's back to auto pilot. Engineers have spent countless man hours
>> designing and testing modern HVAC systems in order to provide the
>> optimum in system efficiency so you can set it and forget it. I
>> understand what the gentleman wants but I don't understand why. The
>> system longevity is considered by the design engineers whenever a
>> system is put into production and it has controls to prevent short
>> cycling or any other detrimental operation.
>>
>> TDD
>>
> Times and technology change, and things are not the same as they were
> umpteen years ago. it ain't grampas air condioner or furnace anymore.
^Mexican AC^ 8-)
> I have a couple of elderly customers that took MONTHS to get them to keep
> their cotton pickers off the controls and let the controls do their job.
> Hands free and automatic were not terms they associated with their
> "thermostat"
> I had one that I had to lock out because I was getting 2 and 3 calls a day
> because they couldn't hear it run and kept mashing buttons on the control. I
> had another one that I had to remotely mount the control out of sight and
> put a non functional round one back on the wall so they had something to
> play with.
>
> Yes, these folks are technology chalanged, and yes, once they figured out
> that the controls didn't have to (or need to) be touched, they are much
> happier, their home is comfortable, and their utility bills went down 40 -
> 50% compared to what they were before they had me install their new comfort
> system.
>
>
Years ago, the father of a friend of mine put the real thermostat in the
closet (perhaps not the best place) and left a dummy on the hallway wall
for mom to play with. I like Accustat thermostats mounted in the return
air to keep meddling fingers at bay. Any old thing on the wall with
perhaps a blinking LED for people to play with. 8-)
TDD
Stormin Mormon
second floor of a rental house. The other tenant had the thermostat.
He'd turn it way down, and go to work. She and her boyfriend would
freeze butt all day.
Earl Proulx has done something similar. The "Yankee home handyman". He
has put a non functioning stat for the old folks to fiddle.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Steve" <jste...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i9d014$2oc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:i9d62v$g9j$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
M Harris
> At one time computers took up whole floors of buildings and came with
> human engineers to keep them running. I envision a plastic project
> box with a half dozen toggle switches incorporating a couple of adjustable
> thermostats, giving it a Steampunk look would be a bonus.
>
> I understand that the fellow wants more control over the operation
> of his system perhaps because it's what he's accustom to. I prefer
> manual control of some things myself but when I get tired and lazy,
> it's back to auto pilot. Engineers have spent countless man hours
> designing and testing modern HVAC systems in order to provide the
> optimum in system efficiency so you can set it and forget it. I
> understand what the gentleman wants but I don't understand why. The
> system longevity is considered by the design engineers whenever a
> system is put into production and it has controls to prevent short
> cycling or any other detrimental operation.
>
> TDD
>
Begining to sound as like you all assume I'm not to swift. Let me give
you 1 of many reasons I don't care for the decision process of the
thermostat using it's default settings.
Had therm set overnight at 68. Next morning the outdoor temp was ~ 55.
Reset therm to 74. 2nd stage HP heat came on and was doing a reasonalbe job
bringing up the indoor temp. At some point therm decided to it was taking
too long and switched to gas heat. At that outdoor temp and with the gas
vs electric rates in my situation, the gas heat was ~ 5X as expensive as HP
heat. I've since disabled the time-out timer that mindlessly switched to
gas. Now the only time it will auto switch to gas is if the outdoor balance
point is reached or if I decide I'm willing to pay higher month cost to more
quickly reach the indoor set point.
I'm a professional engineer who understands this stuff. In my old system I
just put a toggle swich on W2, but there's no W2 (or W1, Y1, or Y2)on
these data-link systems so I need to learn this new (to me) config
terminology.
Hope this helps understand where I'm coming from.
The Daring Dufas
I now understand what it is you want to do and why. The only problem
is that you no longer have a simple relay logic control system. The
only thing to do is hack the system or discover the insider secrets
to programming your gear which may only be available to dealers and
company engineers. I wonder, does your system have any kind of remote
communication capability? When me and an electrical engineer friend
were installing HVAC control systems in some new schools some years
ago, the systems were tied together to a central point and accessed
remotely via a dial up modem. A system as modern as what you have
must surely have an Ethernet connection somewhere or at least a serial
interface.
Perhaps if you could rig a computer interface, you could write your
own control software. I have no idea what communication protocols
your system is using. Heck, it all used to be RS232, 422, 485 and
a few other serial types. Now there's some stuff I've never seen
and have no clue as to how it works. I think what you would really
like is a smart home interface with your HVAC system. I would be a
lot of fun to pull it up on the computer and control it in real time.
TDD
M Harris
The 'auto discovery mode' on these new systems is like 'plug & play' on a
PC. While most installers are content to let the system set itself up, the
installer manual actually allows quite a few configuration parameters that
can be set in the 'installer mode'. For now I'm content to just figure out
what they all mean, which is what lead to the "Compressor Cycles Per Hour"
question. Choice is 2-6 (default is 3) Most likely it means what it says
but what is the 'intent' of the setting. It's a new term to me.
Steve
So your telling us that it wasn't set up correctly in the first place.
The *ONLY* times the furnace should light off is when the balance point is
reached, or the control is put into emergency heat mode. There is a
propriatary cable and propriatary software (its not free) to be able to
interigate and configure serial controled systems from a laptop.
FWIW, I don't even have it... At this time, its not worth it for me to buy
the software and cable.
If you toggle on the intellegent recovery function, the control will use the
most economical means of bringing the home from night time setback up to the
daytime setpoint. The control is constantly learning when to bring the
system on and in what mode to have your home at the desired setpoint at the
desired time. Its going to do a whole lot differently at 55F than it will at
25F, but its going to do it in the most economical means possible.
You can also toggle the setting for comfort or economical...this will help
too.
The Daring Dufas
> PC. While most installers are content to let the system set itself up, the
> installer manual actually allows quite a few configuration parameters that
> can be set in the 'installer mode'. For now I'm content to just figure out
> what they all mean, which is what lead to the "Compressor Cycles Per Hour"
> question. Choice is 2-6 (default is 3) Most likely it means what it says
> but what is the 'intent' of the setting. It's a new term to me.
>
I haven't installed any systems like what you have because me and my
buddy don't have a customer base that can afford the latest super
duper with all the bells and whistles systems. The closest I come to
complicated controls is in the mini split systems. We have a friend
who is a Standard and Trane dealer and I'm sure he has sold brainy
systems like yours but he's not going to play with the parameters
unless he's on the phone with the factory tech support.
I'm going to make a SWAG that the CCPH will also affect compressor
run time in a way that the system will overshoot the cut off set
point more with the fewer number of compressor cycles. It's similar
to what I do on refrigeration mechanical control systems using
pressure switches. I'll set a wide differential for cut in and cut
out to keep the compressor from cycling too often. The existence of
product provides the needed hysteresis for the control cycle. It's
what I often describe to people as a thermal flywheel to help them
understand. Folks will turn the thermostat way up or down depending
on the season thinking it's going to change the temperature inside
their home faster. I tell them that the little lever is not like an
accelerator peddle in a car and the HVAC system only has one speed
(except for multi-stage) and it's not going to work any faster. I
know there are new systems for homes that have variable speed drives
for both compressor and air handling but those aren't the majority
of systems in existence. In the future the whole dang house will be
controlled by a computer but most of us will be gone by then and won't
have to worry about it. You could even program the house loud speakers
to blast out "YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!"
TDD
The Daring Dufas
Do the high end systems you sell have remote management capability? I
see it with a lot of other stuff I deal with but haven't worked with
any home HVAC systems that have it. Remote management has become so
inexpensive as of late that it's easy to add to just about anything.
Heck, I think there has been an Internet ready refrigerator around
for a while. I seem to recall seeing some IP addressable thermostats
available but I haven't played with any, yet.
TDD
Steve
I don't have the remote management capabilities with the system I install
(yet), but all of the systems I install either have the VP-8000 control, or
the IAQ control for dual fuel/hybrid systems. Even though the IAQ control
has "auto-discovery", I choose to do it manually, as well as to spend the
10 - 15 minutes to do the setup and programming when I install them, as
well as programming the customers comfort settings. But you gotta remember
that I do things differently than "Bubba" or "Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob".
I figure I must be doing something right, 15 years and I am *still* in
business(and making a profit), with a customer base of over 600(18% have
service agreements).... not too bad for a one man band in rural, small town
Mississippi.
The Daring Dufas
Congratulations on your success, I wish my health was better so I could
take care of more people. I'm glad to hear that you take the time to do
it right the first time. It's a shame more folks don't have the same
work ethic and just throw the equipment in. I'm sure you come across a
lot of situations that elicit a big WTF and the question of why on earth
did those guys do that? Keep up the good work! 8-)
TDD
M Harris
>
> The *ONLY* times the furnace should light off is when the balance point is
> reached, or the control is put into emergency heat mode. There is a
> propriatary cable and propriatary software (its not free) to be able to
> interigate and configure serial controled systems from a laptop.
>
> FWIW, I don't even have it... At this time, its not worth it for me to buy
> the software and cable.
>
> If you toggle on the intellegent recovery function, the control will use
> the most economical means of bringing the home from night time setback up
> to the daytime setpoint. The control is constantly learning when to bring
> the system on and in what mode to have your home at the desired setpoint
> at the desired time. Its going to do a whole lot differently at 55F than
> it will at 25F, but its going to do it in the most economical means
> possible.
> You can also toggle the setting for comfort or economical...this will help
> too.
>
>
Steve - I also would have expected that the *ONLY* times the furnace should
light off is when the balance point is reached but it's not so. There's a
theremostat parameter called Installer Setup Number (ISU) 0346. It's labled
"Dual Fuel Heat Pump Upstage to Furnace Timer". The installer manual
describes it as "System will switch to gas furnace to satisfy call for heat
if timer expires" Factory default is 60 minutes. Since I disabled it, it
stop switching over to gas.
I hope this helps clarify why it's in my best economic interest to better
understand and take some control of the beast.
Steve
Thanx.... I take pictures when I run across some really bad stuff, and make
copies for the local county planning commission to give them ammo for
getting inspections and code enforcement in place.
Oscar_Lives
" M Harris" <mh at soalex.us> wrote in message news:4cb8e23f$0$30762$8826...@blocknews.net...
> Thanks Steve - going to disable until I see at what outdoor temp my wife
> complains when HP defrosts.
>
> Do you know what the effect of "Compressor Cycles Per Hour" setting does.
> I understand it only allows X cycles but do you know if set low, say 2/hr -
> will it extend the compressor run time to prevent there being a long off
> time after the 2 cycle completes? There also a "Temperature Control in
> Heat" which I suspect has a similiar effect of causing longer run time in
> the less agressive temp control setting.
>
>
>
>
>>> Am I correct that the 'Heater Defrost Balance Point' is the setting for
>>> calling for Aux heat when the outdoor temperature hits a certain point
>>
>> no
>>
>> The balance point is normally used on a dual fuel/hybrid system for the
>> most economical point to lock out the heat pump and switch over to the
>> first stage of a gas or oil furnace. Normally, when this configuration is
>> used, the furnace will not fire if the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle
>> because of head pressure issues.
>>
>> Here in south Mississippi, I use 35F for a balance point.
>>
>
You are fucking with stuff you don't have a clue about.
No one here can help you because they cannot see what you have or where you have it or how it is set up. Any answers you get here are WAG.
Why are you too cheap to have a professional come out and look at it?
M Harris
"Oscar_Lives" <Oscar...@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:1cydnbeJKaY_KSbR...@mchsi.com...
>You are fucking with stuff you don't have a clue about.
>No one here can help you because they cannot see what you have or >where
>you have it or how it is set up. Any answers you get here are WAG.
>Why are you too cheap to have a professional come out and look at it?
If you are unable to follow the tread then you might want to stay on the
sidelines. This thread was very useful, Steve and Dufas provided useful
info and the discussion is spot on for what should be discussed on an nntp
HVAC newsgroup.
The Daring Dufas
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:21:44 -0400, " M Harris"<mh at soalex.us>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> This thread was very useful, Steve and Dufas provided useful
>> info and the discussion is spot on for what should be discussed on an nntp
>> HVAC newsgroup.
>>
>
> And BTW, don't ever mention Pauls bald spot, ON, or OFF again!
>
ALL HAIL THE KING! 8-)
TDD
Zaroc Stone
wrote:
Why do some of the folks on Alt-H have to come across with a foul mouth and
causic comments? Do they really believe that all the homeowner is looking
for is free service? Or, do they believe they can generate a service call
by insulting people?
I live in a development that was built in 2005-06. Many of the units are
heat pumps; a variety of brands. Some are failing and the techs that
service them are telling the customer (retired folks) that it's going to
take $6000-$7000 to do the job. They are quick to point out that the units
are R-22 and it's not made anymore...etc etc. I looked at a trane unit,
took down the numbers and called Trane. They still have plenty of R-22
and the unit I called in about was manufactured in 1998. Either the builder
sold her a used unit or it sat on someone's yard for 7 - 8 years before it
was installed. Do we really have to wonder why people don't trust service
techs?
When 7 or 8 out of 50 units suddently go tits up at the same time, don't
they expect people to be a bit concerned about honesty? More often than
not, a homeowner has already called someone in, got a price that he didn't
like and is trying to find out if the price is what it should be and the
problem is what the tech said it is. I worked for several contractors who
were less than honest. Since the public reads this board, I'm going to stop
right here before I scare them all away.
After 40 years of this trade, I've had my share of homeowners who want a
free job. To their questions, I used to tell them, "I'd have to look at
it." It's not necessary get nasty or curse at them. If they keep pushing,
just reaffirm your first comment, "Could be a lot of things, I'd have to
look at it." And don't feed their questions with any kind of answer. If
they do call you out, some techs have a minimum service charge, completely
refundable if they get the job. Nothing wrong with that and you don't have
to get mad.
ZS
The Daring Dufas
There are some service companies that prey on the elderly. Me and my
friends don't. Believe me, the guys talk whenever I see them at the
supply house and word spreads pretty quickly about who's a crook. I
had a real jerk brag to me about an old couple he scammed out of $5k
when the only problem was a loose blower door. I don't guess I'll ever
own a shiny new truck like those guys.
TDD