Hi-Re-Li Westinghouse
Buck153
Westinghouse's Hi-Re-Li system, built about 30 years ago. They used a
special oem subcooling valve, made by Sporlan. The charge was critical, and
the valve would simply open when 10 degrees subcooling was obtained.
The evaporator coil was flooded, and ran with 0 to 4 degrees superheat, [no
direct control] the system had a suction accumulator tank, to make sure vapor
entered the compressor. If you over charged, the accumulator would start
filling, it could slug the compressor.
Westinghouse claimed this design was the result of government grants to improve
efficiency of heat pumps. The system worked great. It was considered more
efficient, because the compressor, inside coil and, outside coil, were fully
optimized, with no wasted area for subcooling, or superheat.
They used them on straight air conditioning too. I changed many of condensing
units with these, just go inside and take out the expansion valve, leave the
distributor.
Westinghouse was a giant in the air conditioning market after World War 2.
Buck
Aire Kool
still being installed in the 1970's or is that too old for you too? Some of
these older technologies beat the modern crap that they produce today but
who wants to build a unit that may last for 25 years? Built-in obsolesence
keeps the manufacturers busy!!! Gord J.
Coolman472 wrote in message
<199808310457...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Don't need to hear about an obsolete, system.
>WW2 was over 40 some years ago.
Coolman472
Dennis & Gloria Chada, St. Paul, MN
coolm...@aol.comU says...
>
>Don't need to hear about an obsolete, system.
>WW2 was over 40 some years ago.
Sadly, if we do not learn from history we are certain to repeat its mistakes.
In this business,in my experience, someone offers to repeat the mistakes of the
past just about as often as someone comes up with a new idea,trick is to save
GOOD of the past and latch on to the BETTER of the now!
btw, December 7,1941 is over 57 years!?!
Dennis
Don Ocean
of some of todays fine technology. The Byzantine Empire made a fine
hydronics system that both heated and cooled their spaces. We are still
using pretty much that same system today. I don't supposed you would be
interested in the IAQ control in the outhouses? Have you ever wondered
about the environmental control systems in manned spacecraft? Such as
Gemini, Mercury, and Apollo? Or even the systems that control the
environment on modern airline passenger planes. Air Research(Garret Ind)
brought that into being during and after WWII. Hasn't changed much
either. From time to time, I get to work on 60 to 90 year old octopus
furnaces(converted to N.gas). It might surprise you some of the
innovations that some of the old timers installed. Such as coil and tank
water heating systems(domestic hot water), Iron firemen( and automatic
stoker) etc. A lot of wonders in this world - from the old to the
new..:-)
Don O.
Aire Kool
past.Years ago I worked in a large hotel in the Toronto area.Each room in
the hotel had a small "Iron Fireman" fan coil unit for heating and
cooling.The fans were driven by water pressure and required no
electricity.These systems worked great and the main problem was that they
used a two pipe water system and could only supply heating or cooling
depending on how we had the valves arranged in the mechanical room and
whether we were running the chillers or the boilers.Great in the summer or
winter but a hassle in the sprig and fall.
Gord J.
Don Ocean wrote in message <35EA5C30...@ideasign.com>...
asc...@mvp.net
buc...@aol.com (Buck153) wrote:
> Since reading on here about subcooling and so on. It made me think of
> Westinghouse's Hi-Re-Li system, built about 30 years ago. They used a
> special oem subcooling valve, made by Sporlan. The charge was critical, and
> the valve would simply open when 10 degrees subcooling was obtained.
>
We made large numbers of these valves in the late 60's and 70's for the
Hi-Re- Li systems. Basically, it was a reverse acting TEV with a bleed port.
As the sensing bulb warmed up (causing subcooling to drop), the valve would
close, backing up liquid in the condenser to obtain greater subcooling. The
valve was internally equalized to the inlet fitting to sense condensing
pressure. The sensing bulb was place at the outlet of the condenser, on the
inlet side of the valve. The bleed port was necessary for start-up, since
the valve would sensed zero subcooling and would be closed. The bleed port
allowed enough flow at start-up to create subcooling and get the valve open
and regulating.
The residential Hi-Re-Li systems were eventually sold to York.
Paul Mueller still uses Hi-Re-Li design on their refrigerated bulk milk tanks.
> Westinghouse claimed this design was the result of government grants to
improve
> efficiency of heat pumps. The system worked great. It was considered more
> efficient, because the compressor, inside coil and, outside coil, were fully
> optimized, with no wasted area for subcooling, or superheat.
>
Jim Harnish (I hope I spelled his name right) of Westinghouse and now of York
(he may be retired now) wrote the original paper on this system design in the
mid 60's. Interesting stuff. A/C design engineers have, on more than one
occasion, asked me about the possibility of controlling refrigerant flow
through the condenser coil instead of the evaporator coil. It has already
been done, I say.....
I understand the Hi-Re-Li failed to stay in the marketplace for 2 reasons: (1)
it was more expensive that comparable units of its era; (2) it's operation
confused many an a/c mechanic. I've personally caused some distress among
service mechanics when I told them... "no the sensing bulb doesn't belong on
the suction line, take it off ther and place it on the liquid line upsteam of
the expansion valve" ......
Andy Schoen
asc...@mvp.net
http://walden.mvp.net/~aschoen
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Buck153
Carrier had an evaporative condenser that ran on water turbine too.
Buck
Coolman472
know history to help make decisions of the future.
Meant to hit 5 instead of 4 I realize the war was over in the mid 40's.
However I wasn't talking bout the beginning of the war, like maybe one day
after 12/7/41 which will be 57 years this coming Dec.
HVACMAN
into one of these animals but they still exist! Today I condemned a mod. HP048DAA,
ser. MG44294, style? 3965A8360. System was off when I arrived, the customer
complained of icing on the line(I assumed the suction line) and water on the
floor(iced coil?)... I fired it up and got icing on the liquid line and TXV! Went
out and hooked up to the thing...50 on the liquid, 10 on the suction, 60º+ SH,
liquid line sweating like mad and I'm thinking plugged condenser coil... Took the
covers off and followed the liquid line back to the check valve, coil and lines red
hot to the check valve, cold and sweaty past it...guess I found the restriction(?)
The TXV setup and bleed tube were baffling, as was the liquid line plumbed thru the
reciever(?) The house originally used the HI RE LI with elec. backup, when the
current owner bought the place 20 yrs. ago they swapped a furnace for the AHU wired
the HP for cooling only and added conventional TXV coil... How did this system work
with a TXV coil and the TXV regulated condenser? Was my diagnosis correct? Would it
have made sense to axe the check valves and maybe the reversing valve to make a
more conventional (and restriction free) condenser out of it?... The new system we
will be installing will most likely be cheaper than milking this unit along. It
sure is an interesting relic!
asc...@mvp.net wrote:
--
HVACMAN
If we're not supposed to eat animals,
why are they made out of meat?
Aire Kool
Poland. Britian,Canada ,France, and many other allied countries were at war
for 3 years before Pearl Harbor. You Americans were a bit late arriving, but
thank God you came before it was too late or we all would have been speaking
German or Japanese today!
Gord J.
Coolman472 wrote in message
<199809011606...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Buck153
10 degrees subcooling, and your tev at evaporator, just took over and
maintained superheat, simple as that.
Buck
Coolman472
>Poland. Britian,Canada ,France, and many other allied countries were at war
>for 3 years before Pearl Harbor. You Americans were a bit late arriving, but
>thank God you came before it was too late or we all would have been speaking
>German or Japanese today!
Gord, You really are getting exact, my friend. I was talking about our
beginning. For some people/countries the war was over before the U.S. started
too. So I'm wrong on the ending of the war too, by your standards.
So I stand corrected I should have inserted when the war started and ended for
the United States.
The US is the melting pot of the world, somewhat like a gentle mongrel dog.
But! when you piss off a mongrel dog, you got your hands full. Especially a
"hillbilly"!!!!
asc...@mvp.net
HVACMAN <hva...@uswest.net> wrote:
> Andy, thanks for the background... very interesting, I never thought I would
run
> into one of these animals but they still exist! Today I condemned a mod.
HP048DAA,
> ser. MG44294, style? 3965A8360. System was off when I arrived, the customer
> complained of icing on the line(I assumed the suction line) and water on the
> floor(iced coil?)... I fired it up and got icing on the liquid line and TXV!
Went
> out and hooked up to the thing...50 on the liquid, 10 on the suction, 60º+ SH,
> liquid line sweating like mad and I'm thinking plugged condenser coil...
Actually one too many expansion valves in the system....
Took the
> covers off and followed the liquid line back to the check valve, coil and
lines red
> hot to the check valve, cold and sweaty past it...guess I found the
restriction(?)
> The TXV setup and bleed tube were baffling, as was the liquid line plumbed
thru the
> reciever(?)
Accumulator. Hi-Re-Li units had the liquid line run thru a suction
accumulator with was large enough to hold the system charge. The accumulator
also provided for some liquid subcooling
The house originally used the HI RE LI with elec. backup, when the
> current owner bought the place 20 yrs. ago they swapped a furnace for the AHU
wired
> the HP for cooling only and added conventional TXV coil... How did this
system work
> with a TXV coil and the TXV regulated condenser? Was my diagnosis correct?
If the original evap coil was replaced with one having a TEV, the system
would not have worked. You would have run a cool liquid line, and a very low
suction pressure. In effect, you have a system with two expansion valves
piped in series.
The expansion valve at the evaporator should have been removed.
Alternatively, one could have removed the subcooling valve at the condenser
outlet and left the TEV at the evaporator in place, but this approach I've
been told is less than an ideal solution. The TEV prevents the accumulator
from filling with the desired amount of refrigerant which is part of the
design equation for the Hi- Re-Li system.