Boiler temperature; adjust? - Weil-McLain GOLD GV series 4
2apart
boiler installed. This unit heats fluid that is piped
thru a basement floor.
The old unit, that rusted out (15 years old), had a lower
outlet temperature. That unit supplied fluid at about 120F
into the floor. This new unit is up around 140F.
I assume that the oulet temperature, at 140F, is related directly
to the boiler inlet temperature; it's the same circuit. I'm guessing..
I don't have a schematic. My desire to reduce this temperature is
based on
increasing the boiler efficiency.
The user's manual says that the GCM
(the units controller) mixes return water (cooled by the floor)
and by-passed boiler output to maintain 140F temperature into the
boiler sections, "to guard against
condensation even if the return water is as low as 6oF".
Fluid returned from the floor is around 60F.
My questions are these.
Can the boiler inlet temperature be adjusted?
Would it be more efficient to lower the boiler inlet temperature?
Would lowering the temperature to, say, 120 be a good idea?
What is the reason to avoid condensation? Doesn't the condensate
just flow into a drain?
Oscar_Lives
"2apart" <drub...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166408094.7...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Just close the gas valve off a bit until you get the temperature you want.
Nathan In Montana
news:Xenhh.183553$aJ.112427@attbi_s21...
> Just close the gas valve off a bit until you get the temperature you want.
i understand the reason behind your comment, but do you _really_ want to
potentially bare the burden of this liability?
--
Nathan in Montana
http://BighornRefrigeration.com
http://ConcealedCarryForum.com
http://1911Tech.com
http://GlockCarry.com
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>Just had a new (replacement) Weil-McLain Gold GV series 4
>boiler installed. This unit heats fluid that is piped
>thru a basement floor.
>
>The old unit, that rusted out (15 years old), had a lower
>outlet temperature. That unit supplied fluid at about 120F
>into the floor. This new unit is up around 140F.
>
>I assume that the oulet temperature, at 140F, is related directly
>to the boiler inlet temperature; it's the same circuit. I'm guessing..
>I don't have a schematic. My desire to reduce this temperature is
>based on
>increasing the boiler efficiency.
>
>The user's manual says that the GCM
>(the units controller) mixes return water (cooled by the floor)
>and by-passed boiler output to maintain 140F temperature into the
>boiler sections, "to guard against
>condensation even if the return water is as low as 6oF".
>Fluid returned from the floor is around 60F.
>
>My questions are these.
Wrong questions. What you need to be asking is :
" Mr. Installer / Company rep - why is it set the way it is,
and what are my options, if any ?".
>
>Can the boiler inlet temperature be adjusted?
>
>Would it be more efficient to lower the boiler inlet temperature?
>
>Would lowering the temperature to, say, 120 be a good idea?
>
>What is the reason to avoid condensation? Doesn't the condensate
>just flow into a drain?
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Oscar_Lives
"Nathan In Montana" <Montan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b46dnaP7HN_emxvY...@bresnan.com...
> "Oscar_Lives" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:Xenhh.183553$aJ.112427@attbi_s21...
>> Just close the gas valve off a bit until you get the temperature you
>> want.
>
> i understand the reason behind your comment, but do you _really_ want to
> potentially bare the burden of this liability?
Here, bare THIS!
Nathan In Montana
> Here, bare THIS!
giving a harmless bullshit response is one thing. giving a potentially
hazardous bullshit response is another matter entirely. at best its
completely irresponsible.
--
Nathan in Montana
Oscar_Lives
> "Oscar_Lives" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:5_nhh.183591$aJ.62029@attbi_s21...
>> Here, bare THIS!
>
> giving a harmless bullshit response is one thing. giving a potentially
> hazardous bullshit response is another matter entirely. at best its
> completely irresponsible.
going to an alt newsgroup for responsible advise seems somewhat
irresponsible as well.
Seems this is a question for the manufacturer or a qualified technician...
Nathan In Montana
> going to an alt newsgroup for responsible advise seems somewhat
> irresponsible as well.
>
> Seems this is a question for the manufacturer or a qualified technician...
i agree with you _completely_. however, should one take you seriously and
follow your advice causing damage to life or property, a strong case could
be made against you. in todays litiguous society, its something to think
about.
--
Nathan in Montana
http://BighornRefrigeration.com
Unknown
anything you say here? I am from Canada so our laws differ, but I
know I couldn't be held responsible for anything I say on the
internet, even if it leads to death or injury. It's up to the home
owner to use due diligence, and it's the homeowner who is ultimately
responsible for anything that happens. In my province the homeowner
can work on his own gas equipment, so long as his house is not
aatached to another..hahaha
-Canadian Heat
--
--------------------------------- --- -- -
Posted with NewsLeecher v3.7 Final
Web @ http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet
------------------- ----- ---- -- -
Nathan In Montana
news:4586df64$0$20055$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Do you guys actually think you could be held responsible for
> anything you say here?
absolutely.
--
Nathan in Montana
Power's Mechanical
>Just had a new (replacement) Weil-McLain Gold GV series 4
>boiler installed. This unit heats fluid that is piped
>thru a basement floor.
>
>The old unit, that rusted out (15 years old), had a lower
>outlet temperature. That unit supplied fluid at about 120F
>into the floor. This new unit is up around 140F.
>
>I assume that the oulet temperature, at 140F, is related directly
>to the boiler inlet temperature; it's the same circuit. I'm guessing..
>I don't have a schematic. My desire to reduce this temperature is
>based on
>increasing the boiler efficiency.
>
>The user's manual says that the GCM
>(the units controller) mixes return water (cooled by the floor)
>and by-passed boiler output to maintain 140F temperature into the
>boiler sections, "to guard against
>condensation even if the return water is as low as 6oF".
>Fluid returned from the floor is around 60F.
>
>My questions are these.
>
>Can the boiler inlet temperature be adjusted?
>
Yes, but no lower than 140F
>Would it be more efficient to lower the boiler inlet temperature?
>
Have your contractor install a Tekmar boiler reset control. Keep the
min temp at 140F. As the weather warms the boiler temp is lower and
vise versa. You can also cycle the pumps according to demand saving
even more energy.
>Would lowering the temperature to, say, 120 be a good idea?
>
No. Didnt you understand the part about condensation? If the boiler
water is below a certain point (generally 140F) the outside sections
condensate. Thats a bad thing.
>What is the reason to avoid condensation?
It promotes rust and corrosion on your brand new boiler which can also
lead to premature and sometimes catastrophic failure.
>Doesn't the condensate just flow into a drain?
No. It flows out onto the floor.
-zero
"Bubba" <LiKeAlA...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:qurdo2tk4recik90l...@4ax.com...
> Steve,
> I dont think you understood what Im talking about. Now Im not familiar
> with the Buderus but we've used the Weil-McLain high eff condensing
> boilers. Weil-McLain rates theirs at something like 98% eff too but
> its NOT. Not unless you are using it in a specific low temp
> application. I looked on the Buderus site. Its not very detailed. All
> it says is the boiler is either 97, 98 or 99 % efficient depending on
> the size. Typically, that rating is for the most extreme type of
> install.
> For example: If you use this boiler in a system where it heats the
> closed water loop for a McQuay water source heat pump system. It only
> heats the water in the loop to approx 78 degrees. It doesnt go any
> higher. Thus they can rate it at a 99% eff unit.
> When it is installed in the more typical type of installation where it
> heats water from 140 to 180 degrees in a system using cast iron
> radiators or base board fin tube then the rating is more in the 92 ish
> % rating. I didnt see where Buderus makes that distinction but Id bet
> that is the case. 99% eff on a 198,800 BTU boiler that is putting out
> 151 degrees at the flue is pure BUNK! At that furnace condenses at low
> temp or high temp. It doesnt matter.
> Bubba
I couldn't agree more.
A manufacturer that makes a larger 97%+ HW condensing boiler (s.s.
coil in
a box) briefly had linked their submitted certification procedures for eff.
(not there now and pissed I didn't PDF it) . They used 30-something° inlet
water
with a pre-mix burner using a Matrix-fiber type cone, perfect ambient
conditions, etc.
The verbiage they use now for ALL their heaters is all over the
place. "up to 98% eff." "Higher efficiency of 99.1% can be achieved
when boiler works with less than full load using lower inlet water
temperature."
Well the burner they used for their cert., is listed as OPTIONAL!
The standard burner is a Riello. 86.6% combustion eff. in that heater
on a good day, at rated output. However all their claims revolve around
the high eff. burner numbers. As if that's what your buying.
Now they DO show a small chart in their manual with the eff. dropping
off to
something like 89% with 140° inlet.
But with NO MENTION that this is all with the OPTIONAL BURNER ONLY!!!
However, It IS worded in double-speak in a C.Y.A. fashion early on in the
manual.
Kind of like Where's Waldo.
Bastards.
You've got to watch these manufacturers and there efficiency claims!
This is a good page to start off (good links) into the black-art
of "efficiency".
http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html
-zero
geoman
> "Oscar_Lives" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:hOvhh.184019$aJ.70524@attbi_s21...
>> going to an alt newsgroup for responsible advise seems somewhat
>> irresponsible as well.
>>
>> Seems this is a question for the manufacturer or a qualified
>> technician...
>
> i agree with you _completely_. however, should one take you seriously and
> follow your advice causing damage to life or property, a strong case could
> be made against you. in todays litiguous society, its something to think
> about.
>
Nah, we all know that Oscar is crazy,,,, I'll pardon you after I'm
elected President, Oscar!
Heck, Oscar, you can take care of the White Houses heating system when your
released............
Rich
geoman
"DANgER" <dan...@heat.com> wrote in message
news:4586df64$0$20055$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> anything you say here? I am from Canada so our laws differ, but I
> know I couldn't be held responsible for anything I say on the
> internet, even if it leads to death or injury. It's up to the home
> owner to use due diligence, and it's the homeowner who is ultimately
> responsible for anything that happens. In my province the homeowner
> can work on his own gas equipment, so long as his house is not
> aatached to another..hahaha
>
> -Canadian Heat
WOW, this is the first I've ever heard of Canada doing something
sensible.... Seriously, its unheard of.
Here in America we have a system called 'bottom feeders need to eat well
too", this includes Lawyers and Doctors who live off the plebeians.
geoman
> If the return is hot enough, and I don't know what the magic number is
> but I suspect around 160 or so, the condensate drops to about nothing.
> I think that's why Buderus rates the boiler with higher returns around
> 88% and 98% with the low return temps. 10% is about the same pickup
> you get with a gas furnace when you start extracting the latent heat
> of vaporization.> Thank you for encouraging my behavior.
You are correct on this Steve, this is the exact reason that the Gold series
had a little car radiator style thermostat in them, to get the boiler up
above 140F or condensation would corrode the boiler out. We had to replace
every single boiler we installed because the thermostat failed and the
boiler condensed below 140F. The factory rep, Steve Beraldus from PA came
down on our jobs and took an hour too explain why the boilers were only 80
some % and dropped a great amount when the temps got over 160. So, Bubba is
correct about the manufacturers lying about their efficiencies. What was the
Gold series efficiency rated at, 140 or 160F. I believe they did it at
141F; knowing that they were fudging the numbers and most systems at that
time were change outs operating above the 180. The flue temperature did
increase as the water temperature increased, and as we all know, the PVC
piping didn't work very well for water temps over 180F.
Now, I have a Question
For radiant floor heat, how would you keep the temp down on the floor with a
Weil McLain or others that operate at 140F or more? What could I do to
change this without changing the entire boiler?
Rich
geoman
> What you might want to do is ask yourself why a boiler rusted out in
> only 15 yrs when it should have lasted 25, 30, or 40 yrs or more.
> Oversized boilers and improperly installed boilers will rust like
> crazy.
> "It aint rocket science you know?"
I'd bet it was a Weil Mclain Gold or HV series, they were notorius of
condensation problems
> Bubba
Oscar_Lives
"geoman" <GeoJr@geo> wrote in message
news:Auqdnc4H854OIBXY...@adelphia.com...
I hear that their thermostats don't have a "W" wire anymore...
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
They've got Fan, Heat, and reversing valve only, for the next
2 years. Think about it :-)
Power's Mechanical
I would use a three way valve. Or maybe a tempering valve. You may
neep to pipe in some kind of by-pass loop. Draw up what you have, take
a few pics, and Ill meet you at Fishbones for lunch. Its on Monroe St
downtown in Diamond City. Bring your checkbook.
Or... consulte a local professional to have an on site look see. :)
ps I call it Diamond City because when the sun hits the broken glass
in the road it sparkles like diamonds. haha