electronic air filter and ozone
Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)
I think it is the fact that the electronic air filter generates ozone
but is it true only near the unit? Will the ozone penetrate the
wall/ceiling /duct to enter to the main and 2nd floor
If I have the electronic air filter, do I still need a good furnace
filter or can I just use the fibreglass one and will the electronic air
filter reduces the frequency of changing the furnace air filter?
thanks
Anthony
nos...@voyager.net
I claim no expert, but I believe the ozone are generated in the path
of the airflow, when the air hits the electrical net. in other words,
it will flow to your room.
What exactly does it mean? I don't know. I want to know the health
effects too...
HVAC Tech
minimul.
You don't use any other filter with an electronic air filter. But you need
to keep the EAC clean or it will not work and is a waste of money. I have
not seen a EAC that will last longer than a month with out cleaning, and in
some cases every 15 days.
"Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)" <yeun...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3DC5EBF0...@rogers.com...
Bob Loblaw
HVAC Tech wrote:
>
> The ozone that is generated is not enough to worry about. It is very
> minimul.
Harmful chemicals, gases, and the like are usually measured in parts per
billion, so to state that the amount of ozone produced is harmless is
erroneous.
Ozone is a carcinogen, a cancer causing agent. When people comment on
the after-rainstorm aroma that they smell in their home then one must
wonder how minimal the concentrations are.
When a media-type filter loads up, air flow is reduced, but filtering
still happens. When an EAC gets dirty, all the dust particles fly right
through it and land on the blower motor, sqirrel cage, secondary heat
exchanger, and the A coil.
I wouldn't have an EAC in my doghouse!
Respectfully, Bob
P.S. Don't ask why they're sold if they're a health hazard. You'll get
the same answer from the manufacturers that you would from R.J.Reynolds
and the boys.
Bubba
Cool. Now I can sue all the electronic air cleaner manufacturers
because Im sure I'll one day have cancer from the electronic air
filters in my home.
Now if you could just help me out a bit. Who should I sue after a
rainstorm? <snicker> :-)
Bubba
Bob Loblaw
> Cool. Now I can sue all the electronic air cleaner manufacturers
> because Im sure I'll one day have cancer from the electronic air
> filters in my home.
> Now if you could just help me out a bit. Who should I sue after a
> rainstorm? <snicker> :-)
> Bubba
So if it occurs naturally, it's not bad for you?
Does that include arsenic, snake venom, poison ivy, rayon gas......
Ozone is a carcinogenic. Just because someone decides to sell it to you
doesn't make it safe. Remember the Corvair? Firestone tires? Cigarettes?
Why would anyone purposely install something in their home that can give
them cancer? You think trace amounts of a substance are harmless?
Come on Bubba! Slip out of your comma.
Besides, they don't filter worth shit!
Respectfully, Bob
Bubba
point that the electronic air filter doesnt put out enough ozone (im
still not saying it does) to amount to anything. Kind of like the
amount of ozone from an electrical storm. Cant really do much about
the storm anyways. Im just kind of saying, I worry about more
important things. Sort of like the "big hole" up in the ozone. Some
say its there, some say its not, some say its getting worse, some say
it is repairing itself. Me? I dont really care because there isnt much
I can do about it.
I will agree with you that the electronic doesnt filter well. At least
it certainly does filter differently. I installed a 1" pleated throw a
way filter directly after the electronic. After about 3 months or
slightly longer, the pleated is clogged. All gaps after the electronic
and before the furnace are caulked. Its just passing right by. Thats
what started making me think the electronics dont filter all that
well.
So have you used paint thinner in your home. Your goina die! Another
carcinagen.....along with every other household item. Maybe I should
take up smoking. At least then I'll know what Im dying from.
"Opinions, Opinions..........we all have them."
Bubba (comaless) :-)
Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)
clean!
Anthony
Bubba wrote:
> I will agree with you that the electronic doesnt filter well. At least
> it certainly does filter differently. I installed a 1" pleated throw a
> way filter directly after the electronic. After about 3 months or
> slightly longer, the pleated is clogged. All gaps after the electronic
> and before the furnace are caulked. Its just passing right by. Thats
> what started making me think the electronics dont filter all that
> well.
Bob Loblaw
Bubba wrote:
> I installed a 1" pleated throw a
> way filter directly after the electronic. After about 3 months or
> slightly longer, the pleated is clogged. All gaps after the electronic
> and before the furnace are caulked. Its just passing right by. Thats
> what started making me think the electronics dont filter all that
> well.
Interesting experiment. I'll quote that story when telling customers
about the downsides to EACs.
Pretty smart on your part.
> Bubba (comaless) :-)
Just teasing you. I've read some of your posts and I know you're pretty
sharp.
My last comment on this subject (I can almost hear the sighs of relief
from the others in the group) is why would anyone want an EAC,
regardless of ozone. They just don't filter well.
I rest my case.
Respectfully, Bob
Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)
comparisons. They do not rate HEPA though. Also CHMC of Canada produced a
30-page report on residential filter in 1999 and they have an even
throughout testing of 10 types of furnace filters (not 10 different models).
It comes to the conclusion that the best are the hepa and TFP and next to it
is EAC.
Anthony
Bubba
filter every month or whatever is necessary, however, after about 3
months or so, the pleated throw a way filter is pretty much clogged.
The electronic is the Emerson Electro Air SST model air filter. Its a
good filter. Not some cheap window screen looking "wanna be"
electronic filter. The electronic filter just wont stop all the
particles. What passes through gets caught on the throw a way. Kind of
a dis-heartining test. I am/is/was a big electronic air filter fan but
this test kind of changed my mind. Looks like a Space-Gard (or
compareable) is maybe the way to go.
Bubba
Don
BUT,
Recent research by Honeywell shows that the cells retain their
efficiency for up to six months without cleaning. The pre-filters
might need cleaning more often to maintain airflow.
Doug
Don
EAC's , the indoor ozone concentration is still only a fraction of
that of outdoor air.
So guess we better all stay inside and keep our windows closed or we
will soon be dieing of ozone caused cancer. Come to think of it, the
human race evolved in the outdoors. Hmmm, wonder why we didn't all
die off from cancer?
Where did you get your research data re dirty air cleaner
efficiencies. The scientific studies I have seen show that the
efficiency of Honeywell air cleaners does not fall off even up to six
months with no cleaning. The research also shows that the total
partical load was much higher with the electronic air cleaner compared
to a pleated paper filter after that length of time.
I think you dog is missing out on a lot of clean air.
Doug
Don
<inocent...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Bubba wrote:
>> I installed a 1" pleated throw a
>> way filter directly after the electronic. After about 3 months or
>> slightly longer, the pleated is clogged. All gaps after the electronic
>> and before the furnace are caulked. Its just passing right by. Thats
>> what started making me think the electronics dont filter all that
>> well.
>
>Interesting experiment. I'll quote that story when telling customers
>about the downsides to EACs.
>Pretty smart on your part.
>
Pretty dumb on your part. Think about it logically and you will
understand why.
Don
Shame on you. :) You can put any kind of filter after any other
kind of filter and eventually see some build up on that secondary
filter. EAC's are only 90% efficient. That means 10 % gets through.
Space-Gards are only 30% efficient, so 70% gets through.
You logic is used by vacuum cleaner salesmen. They come into your
house and ask you to vacuum a section of your carpet with your
existing vacuum. Then they vacuum the same area with the one they are
trying to sell, only it has a viewing area or special white filter to
show you all the dirt that your vacuum missed.
You are using faulty logic.
ps: did you used to sell vacuums?? :)
Doug
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 04:42:28 GMT, Bubba <likeala...@iname.com>
wrote:
William Mcfadden
HVAC Tech <jid...@wideopenwest.com> wrote:
>
>You don't use any other filter with an electronic air filter. But you need
>to keep the EAC clean or it will not work and is a waste of money. I have
>not seen a EAC that will last longer than a month with out cleaning, and in
>some cases every 15 days.
Any comments on the AprilAire 5000? It's an EAC that uses 4" pleated media.
The media is disposable and lasts 6-12 months. I had one of these installed
last June. So far, it appears to be living up to its claims.
--
Bill McFadden bil...@agora.rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/users/billmc
CAUTION: Don't look into laser beam with remaining eye.
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Bubba
It just boils down to this.
You/I sell an electronic air filter to a customer for $650 to $995 or
more? Its supposed to be the latest greatest filter since sliced
bread.
Then I do something silly, like stick a $2 pleated throw a way filter
in my furnace (with the electronic still running) and after a couple
three months it turns out to be pretty darn dirty.
Im just saying Im not sure what to think. The electronics use to
impress me. Now Im not sure they do.
Better profit maybe but not sure if there is anything else?
Just my own little observation.
Note: I dont sell vacuum cleaners and I generally dont give customers
and fancy schmancy sales "do-do".
Oh yeah, and Im never faulty :-)
Bubba
Bob Loblaw
Don wrote:
> Pretty dumb on your part. Think about it logically and you will
> understand why.
Nope. I've thought about it, and placing something downstream of any
filter to see what gets past it makes sense. Matter of fact, that's just
what is done in a lab, to test a filters efficiency. Throw a bunch of
particles at the filter of varying sizes and see what it stops and what
it doesn't.
It's a pity that common sense isn't.
Respectfully, Bob
Bob Loblaw
Don wrote:
>
> Shame on you. :) You can put any kind of filter after any other
> kind of filter and eventually see some build up on that secondary
> filter. EAC's are only 90% efficient. That means 10 % gets through.
> Space-Gards are only 30% efficient, so 70% gets through.
You've got your stats reversed. EAC's are around the 60% range, while
Spaceguards are around 90%.
If you put a second filter downstream of a spaceguard, I doubt you'd get
much. Just look at a blower and direct drive motor that's on the
business end of one.
But look at a blower and motor downstream of an EAC and take note of the
shit that gets past it.
The scoreboard speaks for itself. Like I said, I wouldn't have an EAC in
a doghouse, ozone or no ozone.
Respectfully, Bob
nos...@voyager.net
What about the aprilaire 5000? essentially it's a spacegard with an
electronic grid in front of it.
Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)
Aprilaire 5000 is the best from the units they tested.
spaceguard (aprilaire 2000??) is the worst.
order of efficiency
electronic - thick media - pleated furnace filter - washable furnace filter
Anthony
Bob Loblaw
"Anthony Yeung (Rogers@Home)" wrote:
>
> Check out the consumer report this year.
>
> Aprilaire 5000 is the best from the units they tested.
> spaceguard (aprilaire 2000??) is the worst.
>
> order of efficiency
> electronic - thick media - pleated furnace filter - washable furnace filter
Here's a thought. Why not draw on all your years of working on furnaces
and comparing the blower compartments of those with EACs and those with
Spaceguards??
Real life furnaces, with real people changing the filters, cleaning the
filters, and forgetting to change and clean the filters. Honestly, I
can't believe the amount of dissagreement over something so basic and
elementary as filters.
Bubba
Bob,
If everyone thought and did the same exact thing, we wouldnt
need this group, we wouldnt need police, wars, leaders etc.
Now what fun would that be? Seems rather boring. :-)
Bubba
IJS-HRAC
likeala...@iname.com says...
(that most installers disregard), that the airflow and the
wattage output of the aircleaner must be matched!
Oxygen is always in pairs of molecules in nature, when split into single
molecules,it's ozone. It's unstable and wants to bond with anything
to become stable again.(wood,paper,rubber,skin,lung tissue etc.)
when the air is allowed to remain in the air cleaner too long, the high
static charge breaks the paired oxygen into ozone.
Low air-flow or too high a power-output for the EAC will do this.
Don
Sorry Bob,
You need to learn a little more about filter efficiency tests. The
numbers you state for Spaceguards are from the usless and meaningless
weight test. If you through a bush of rocks at a spaceguard, it may
catch 90% of them. BUT, it won't catch anything small, and it is the
small things that get deep into your lungs and do the most help. Its
claims like that that make such filter companies the laughing stock of
building scientists.
In Canada, I never seen Spaceguard claim to be 90% efficient. There
have been lots of scientific test of filters. Everyone in the
engineering and scientific community relating to building science
knows all about filter effectiveness and the types of faulty claims
made by many in the industry. Take my word for it, electronic air
cleaners, EAC's, are much more efficient than any pleated filter.
Don
that too!! :)
"Do-do" ?? Up here in Canada, we call it "shit". :)
You should try that "do-do". It sometimes works. Sold over 360
furnaces and a/cs so far this year. Don't know howmany EAC's. heppa
filters, etc, but a lot of EAC's. Heppa's aren't my favourite.
On Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:41:50 GMT, Bubba <likeala...@iname.com>
wrote:
Don
It is a pleated filter used as a prefilter, instead of the mesh type
that Honeywell uses, BEFORE, an electronic air cleaner. It appears to
work very well. It should out perform the Honeywell and most other
electronics, but, you have to buy replacement prefilters every so
often, instead of just being able to wash them as you do the mesh
type. As a consumer, I would not like to have to search out those
replacements on a regular basis. If the home is ever sold, the new
owners might not have a clue as to where to get those replacements.
You know how hard it is to get many homeowners to change or clean
their filters now. One of the most disliked aspects of the
Spaceguard, by homeowners, is that they feel that they have to go back
to the installer to buy filters. They much rather be able to go to
somewhere like Home Depot to buy them. EAC's don't require any
subsequent purchases.
Don
situation, even if you have not done scientific testing.
Yes you can put a filter of know and proven efficiency after another
filter to be tested, but in a lab situation, where particle size and
total weight is known and there is a time constant. You could put a
99.97% hepa filter in front of a spaceguard and the second one will
still dirt-up over enough time. Simply putting a pleated filter after
another tells you only 2 things. Wether the seal around the first
furnace is air tight, and/or, whether the first filter is 100%
efficient. If there is the smallest hole/opening between the
electronic air cleaner (EAC) or any other filter, and the second
filter, the negative pressure in the RA side of the system will draw
in room air after the first filter, to be filtered by the second. I
have seen very few filter housings installed air tirght to the
surrounding room.
Bubba
for an hvac company of 50ish or so employees. I made top sales out of
them all and I was only a lowley "technician" that was allowed to
sell. Sold right at $750,000 and $800,000 per year for 2 years
including my service and sales. Its easy if you want to spread the
"do-do" around thick. I had to live with myself though and the General
Manager was about as crooked as they come. So its back to my own
company again. :-)
Bubba
cornytheclown
> Ozone is a carcinogen, a cancer causing agent. When people comment on
> the after-rainstorm aroma that they smell in their home then one must
> wonder how minimal the concentrations are.
> snipped quite a bit.......
Ozone is not a carcinogen, in high concentrations it damages the lungs
but it does not cause cancer.......
SUMMARY OF RISK: High concentrations of ozone may cause severe
irritation of the eyes and respiratory tract. Exposure above 0.1 ppm
causes the mucous membrane of the mouth, nose and throat to dry. A
short exposure to 1 to 2 ppm causes headaches as well as irritation to
the respiratory tract, but these symptoms subside when the exposure
ends. High concentrations and/or repeated or prolonged exposure above
the ACGIH/OSHA exposure limits produce nausea, chest pain, coughing,
fatigue reduced visual acuity and pulmonary edema may be significantly
delayed (one or more hours) from the time of initial exposure. Toxic
effects reported include eye, skin, and CNS effects.
TARGET ORGANS: Respiratory systems, eyes. PRIMARY ENTRY: Inhalation
ACUTE EFFECTS: The acute damage from ozone appears to be the result of
its oxidation effect upon contact with tissue. The acute effects of
ozone inhalation include eye irritation, mucous membrane irritation
and pulmonary edema.
CHRONIC EFFECTS: Respiratory diseases. Deleterious (ozone inhalation)
effects on the lungs and acceleration of tumors have been reported as
chronic effects on exposure to ozone.
still bad though isnt it, though I would not worry about any ill
effects from an electronic cleaner.
Larry Johnston of Washington
I'm a new student of the Hvac business, I joined the ACCA last year and
have been studying Manual's J & D & S and more. I've got my EPA I II
Certification.
From time to time I've read this news group and have been put off by the
conduct of many of the Pro's in the business. I've red most all of the
treads on this subject. I've been pleased to see that the pro's could
talk with out putting down the lay person. And also have interesting
thoughts and views on this subject (Re: electronic air filter and
ozone).
Bubba and others thanks for taking your time for sharing.
Thanks,
LJ
P.S. I have questions that I would like to ask but don't want to be
jumped on.
Bubba
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:15:45 GMT, Larry Johnston of Washington
<LarryJoh...@att.net> wrote:
>Hi Bubba
>
>I'm a new student of the Hvac business, I joined the ACCA last year and
>have been studying Manual's J & D & S and more. I've got my EPA I II
>Certification.
>
>From time to time I've read this news group and have been put off by the
>conduct of many of the Pro's in the business. I've red most all of the
>treads on this subject. I've been pleased to see that the pro's could
>talk with out putting down the lay person. And also have interesting
>thoughts and views on this subject (Re: electronic air filter and
>ozone).
>
>Bubba and others thanks for taking your time for sharing.
>
>Thanks,
>LJ
>
>P.S. I have questions that I would like to ask but don't want to be
>jumped on.
>
I cant help you there. Ask away. You may get "jumped". You may not?
Let me ask you this though. This forum consists of letters being typed
on a monitor screen. If you do get "jumped" is it really going to
hurt? C'mon, you cant really be that sensitive, can you?
Bubba :-)
Don
Know what you mean Bubba.
I am lucky that my company and I sell enough that we can afford to be
honest with customers. If it isn't right for them, I won't sell it.
I could never work for a company that was not like that. Though they
do sell some things that I won't personally sell.
My company sells Spaceguards, I usually steer my customers away from
them when I don't think they are the best choice, even if it means
that they have to come back to us every year for a new filter. Some
furnace models that we carry, from major mfrs, are not as quiet as I
would like for certain applications, so I try not to sell those - at
least not without forewarning the customer.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:48:24 GMT, Bubba <likeala...@iname.com>
wrote:
Bill
<LarryJoh...@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Bubba
>
> I'm a new student of the Hvac business, I joined the ACCA last year and
> have been studying Manual's J & D & S and more. I've got my EPA I II
> Certification.
>
> From time to time I've read this news group and have been put off by the
> conduct of many of the Pro's in the business. I've red most all of the
> treads on this subject. I've been pleased to see that the pro's could
> talk with out putting down the lay person. And also have interesting
> thoughts and views on this subject (Re: electronic air filter and
> ozone).
>
> Bubba and others thanks for taking your time for sharing.
>
> Thanks,
> LJ
>
> P.S. I have questions that I would like to ask but don't want to be
> jumped on.
>
Pussy : )
Any and everything will be dissected and anal-yzed here.
Better to have your ass ripped here than "out there". It cheaper here.
Ask a interesting question that hasn't been beat to death already and you
may be surprised.
Welcome to the Wonderful World of HVAC/R.
--
Abishai
On 6-Nov-2002, Bubba <likeala...@iname.com> wrote:
> No, you kinda missed my point. I can check and clean my electronic
> filter every month or whatever is necessary, however, after about 3
> months or so, the pleated throw a way filter is pretty much clogged.
> The electronic is the Emerson Electro Air SST model air filter. Its a
> good filter. Not some cheap window screen looking "wanna be"
> electronic filter. The electronic filter just wont stop all the
> particles. What passes through gets caught on the throw a way. Kind of
> a dis-heartining test. I am/is/was a big electronic air filter fan but
> this test kind of changed my mind. Looks like a Space-Gard (or
> compareable) is maybe the way to go.
> Bubba
As a general rule of thumb. Pleated media filters are an excellent choice
for all homes. Electronic filters (with additional media filtration) for
homes with smokers.