Building Automation Systems Rating
Knight Rotax
I am new to this NG and I am sure this topic has been covered. For the
sake of good conversation, and a little insight here it is. Which
automation system does everyone work with? Which ones do you like, why, and
which ones to you detest? I will go first.
Currently I am in charge of Many large, and diverse commercial Automated
building control and HVAC systems. We have American Auto-Matrix, ASI, TAC,
Trane Tracer 100/BMN, Trane Tracer Summit, and Siebe/Invensys. After working
on/installing the systems I have to rank them in this order. I do not sell
anything and have no affiliation with any dealers, or factories. This is my
unbiased opinion.
1. TAC
2. Siebe/Invensys
3. Trane Tracer Summit
4.(tie) Trane Tracer 100 BMN/ ASI
5. American Auto-Matrix
TAC- Very good controls, good price, good configurable features. The
future is in LON. I have the least amount of time with the TAC controllers
compared with the others, but I really like them so far.
Siebe/Invensys- Also very good controls and is a close second to TAC.
Price of the system is higher, and this gives the nod to the competition. I
have very little trouble with these controllers. I have probably 60
microzones, 40 microflows, 20 PEMs, 6 GCMs, and 1 LNC. Very stable and
reliable.
Trane Tracer Summit- Over priced junk! Prone to failures. We have 10
Summit systems with sights ranging from one summit panel to sights with 7
summit panels, hundreds of UPCMs, PCMs, TCMs, VAV controls, and most of the
Chillers are Trane. The only reason it ranks higher than the rest is because
of the almost bearable Graphical User Interface of the TS software. Trane as
a company has many unethical practices. Two years ago I went to lunch with
the local trane brass so that they could sell me on their webserver which
only became available last month. They love to sell features that their
equipment can't do yet. Don't get me started on how junky the wireless
thermostats are, we replace hundreds of batteries a year. Trane says they
should last for years, more like months.
Trane Tracer 100/BMN- Over all the hardware, although obsolete, is reliable.
Programming the system is completely non-logic based. Whoever designed the
software/firmware, was a smart individual, but his/her mind wasn't
programmed for the real world. It takes too much valuable time to bounce
around in the program to find what you need. Price in another factor, they
should sell this old stuff for half price. We have replaced a few PCMs
lately all running in the $2000 range. A close second to Johnson Controls in
the unethical dept.
ASI- Not much I can say about ASI. We have probably 80 of their duel duct
blending VAV controls. We haven't been able to get them to communicate
through SIGNAL with the rest of the building which is a conversion in
progress from Auto-Matrix to Siebe. WOW! What a run on sentence! They will
be replaced at some point with a LON controller as the building has a new
Siebe LNC. They are a little pricey and don't fit in with our plans. the
failure rate is fairly low. Maybe if the situation was different, and they
were LON,I would give higher marks.
American Auto-Matrix - IMO the bottom of the barrel. This might be why they
have trouble keeping resellers. The company thinks they are doing great and
won't listen to the poor bastards who have to live with this trash. We have
3 complete buildings with, many DX1s, GX1s, MXs, GXs, HXs,Rxs, TC1s, SF1, 2
Sage panels, and one building with a STAR/Sage combo. The hardware of the
controls aren't that bad. The firmware/software is the worst. It was easier
to program 3D modeling on a Commodore 64! The programming language is
deplorable. It takes an hour to accomplish what should take under ten
minutes. I could go on for hours on the short comings of this product. SOLO
pro for windows is a horrible piece of work. we have shelved our copies and
went back to the DOS based SOLO pro. They openly admit to "just throwing a
windows GUI over a shoddy program in a rush to get it on the market." They
have had three different dealers in my area in the last three years. This is
not a good sign. I look for them to either get with it, or go under. My
money is on the latter.
My comments aren't meant to cause any fights or flames, just honest
feedback from a large customer of building controls. I am interested to hear
comments and maybe some advice from other customers, techs, resellers, or
anyone with an opinion. Also, anyone have a favorite line to use in home
automation?
My 2 cents,
Charlie
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
<nospam-kn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Also, anyone have a favorite line to use in home
>automation?
How about 'Hey, baby, haven't I controlled you somewhere
before ?' :-)
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
Please look at http://helpthecritters.com/ , my new domain for helping critters !!!
My personal WWW site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, stock market, and other free software
Those who say a thing can not be done
should get out of the way of those
who are actually doing it.
Tom Gauldin
vendors out there peddling their systems, but I've found the most generic to
be the <shudder> X-10 items sold by Home Automation Inc, Home Controls, Inc
and even X-10.
--
Tom Gauldin, Las Vegas NV
NEW EMAIL tgau...@lvcm.com
NEW PHONE (702) 263-8804 voice/fax
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:bmahquctupk355s6s...@4ax.com...
D Lucero
liked it very much. Very nice graphics for the time..1990 or about...
Then went to the Johnson Controls 84/40 Not to bad except for having the
replace FICs on a regular basis.
Next came Johnson Controls Metasys Love the GUI
Now I work with Andover's Infinity and conventional systems
They work fine and very expandable... cost is high but they do dam near
anything..
Trane Tracker is ok for small systems and you can interface with
HyperTerminal/ ProComm or crosstalk etc....
Doni
"Knight Rotax" <nospam-kn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uqh8n3e...@corp.supernews.com...
sysint
that they communicate with the same protocol? (Lonworks) You could
actually have TAC and Invensys on the SAME communication line.
www.echelon.com
I prefer Circon Systems controls. www.circon.com They also are
lonworks, however, they are flat LON, and use the most current (LNS)
version. Circon has a very simple/powerful graphical interface called
Visual Integrator. It will run your TAC configuration plugins just
like TAC does, (or any LON)and you can also have VB script, C++, and
activeX controls as well. Circon has been doing flat LON for a long
time compared to everyone else.
TAC compiles to a separate database. I don't like this, but like the
quality of product.
Another way to bring your LON together is by using Plexus webservers.
www.plexus-technology.com -very nice webserver.
danmsnyder
any system, Titus uses their controllers in their VAV boxes. They
also have a lot of features, like occupancy sensors, lighting control,
etc.
dcl...@csisysint.com (sysint) wrote in message news:<c0730db6.02101...@posting.google.com>...
Bob G
<nospam-kn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am new to this NG and I am sure this topic has been covered. For the
>sake of good conversation, and a little insight here it is.
Chuckle, while I do read this newsgroup to learn things. I never
thought I'd get any special 'insights' here.
Asking what folks here think of a certain brand BAS system is pretty
much like asking who makes the best RTU; Trane, McQuay, Lennox,
Carrier, etc.
> Currently I am in charge of Many large, and diverse commercial Automated
>building control and HVAC systems. We have American Auto-Matrix, ASI, TAC,
>Trane Tracer 100/BMN, Trane Tracer Summit, and Siebe/Invensys. After working
>on/installing the systems I have to rank them in this order. I do not sell
>anything and have no affiliation with any dealers, or factories. This is my
>unbiased opinion.
Unbiased??????????
LOLOLOL. Not a flame, but do you even know what that term means?
To deliver an unbiased opinion one must actually rate one against the
other, in similar installations. And one must ensure that what was
ordered for each automation setup, the specs given for the job, are
the same or similar. With each installed and set up optimally by
someone who KNOWS each, quite thoroughly.
This last makes a lot of difference. Trust me. And just because
someone hangs a sign on the side of his truck saying "I do
automation", and includes a logo for Alerton, Andover, Auto-Matrix,
Honeywell, Johnson, Siebe, Siemens, TAC, Trane, etc ... it does not
mean that the person is necessarily competent and expert.
Automation and controls is what I do full time for a living. And there
are a lot of two-bit hacks out there. We routinely get calls and do
work that involves, essentially, fixing what some other joker never
managed to get right. Pretty common.
When I read all of what you posted, what I read is a statement that
you are unbiased ... followed by statements that can not be much else
other than bias. As you offer little except opinions and no FACTS hat
I can discover in your post.
I'm not trying to flame yah. You asked for opinions, I'm giving them.
And I've worked with control systems, remote control and monitoring,
and automation since I got outta Nam and wondered what I should do
with the rest of my life. Didn't seem to be a big job market for
whacking people .... anywhere that was decent to live, anyway. :-)
It is particularly difficult to judge one system against another if
they've been in place for a while, and touched/maintained by different
people. One of the most common situations is for an installation to be
made. At the time it was made, building maintenance supervisor (or
the equivalent) paid attention. And was trainned, and took care of
the system, and kept necessary files, manuals, etc carefully put away
and handy. Then, by 5 years later, current guy in charge doesn't have
much clue how things work. And what he does know is half wrong. And
almost all the documentation has disappeared. And the unknowing and
clueless have started making alterations and -fixes-. With the net
result things are pretty screwed up.
Chuckle, sometimes it does not take that long. One customer, very
large, lasted 2 yrs before their system was so screwed they called us
and threatened law suit, etc. We arrived on scene. About 97% of
their gripes had causes that were self generated. We fixed the
problems, restored system to what it had been when we completed the
project. Gave them a rather HEFTY bill. Told them that an internal
training and qualification program (for maintenance and repair of the
HVAC equipment) would solve most of their problems. And using
passwords to restrict who could make what kind of changes to the
automation system would solve most of the rest. The 3% which was our
problem we fixed free, even tho warranty was expired. Not a problem.
Sheesh ... durn folks were blaming automation system for not working
right when much of their problem was due to the fact that no DDC
system I've ever seen can actually CHANGE the filters that are so
dirty they've been sucked out of the racks, or replace fanbelts that
have broken, etc.
> TAC- Very good controls, good price, good configurable features. The
>future is in LON. I have the least amount of time with the TAC controllers
>compared with the others, but I really like them so far.
TAC is pretty good. I like the system. One of the systems my company
handles.
Is it better than others? Hmmm. Better than a number on your original
list. IMHO. I will make no claim of an unbiased opinion. I am
definitely biased. I dislike systems that make you do things their
way and limit you. Or charge you an arm and a leg for what others
include with the basic setup. And I'm very intolerant of manufacturers
who don't answer help desk calls promptly, provide prompt answers,
and/or who do not make warranty repairs or replacements quickly.
Some of the manufacturers on your list fall into the category of folks
I don't like to do business with. :-)
Is LON the future? Well, I'll presume from the things you'e typed
that you've pretty much bought the line, hook, and sinker.
As far as I, and the company I work for, am concerned, I'm not
entirely sold. LON has problems I'd like to see fixed.
We also do BacNet. Ditto, they have some issues I'd like to see
resolved.
>American Auto-Matrix - IMO the bottom of the barrel. This might be why they
>have trouble keeping resellers. The company thinks they are doing great and
>won't listen to the poor bastards who have to live with this trash. We have
>3 complete buildings with, many DX1s, GX1s, MXs, GXs, HXs,Rxs, TC1s, SF1, 2
>Sage panels, and one building with a STAR/Sage combo. The hardware of the
>controls aren't that bad. The firmware/software is the worst. It was easier
>to program 3D modeling on a Commodore 64! The programming language is
>deplorable. It takes an hour to accomplish what should take under ten
>minutes. I could go on for hours on the short comings of this product. SOLO
>pro for windows is a horrible piece of work. we have shelved our copies and
>went back to the DOS based SOLO pro. They openly admit to "just throwing a
>windows GUI over a shoddy program in a rush to get it on the market." They
>have had three different dealers in my area in the last three years. This is
>not a good sign. I look for them to either get with it, or go under. My
>money is on the latter.
LOLOL. Actually I do a lot of Auto-Matrix work. Just finished a job
with a Sage (head-end unit for those who don't know), 10 DX's, 9 Gx's,
7 GC's, 13 MC's, and 120 something VAV-TAs.
And, FWIW, I could ... back when ... get the C-64 to do 3-D modeling
And didn't have much trouble doing it. Of course, I did KNOW the
system, thoroughly.
Now, I do both TAC and Auto-Matrix. And will tell you that I can
program a complex app on either with equal speed.
Simple applications, such as a standard air handler with hot and cold
coils, heat wheel, mixed/outside/exhaust air dampers, constant
pressure serving VAVs, building/zone pressurization control, simple
economizer mode, simple dehumidification mode, high return air CO2
correction, optimal startup routines, VFDs on supply fan/relief
fan/heat wheel, etc is a half hour programming chore for me using an
Automatrix DX unit. Taking my time. This does not include initial
checkout of the unit and the items terminated to it. i.e. Am I seeing
valid temp from input one, does damper motor move (in the right
direction) as ordered, etc.
That you do not understand the programming language very well and are
not very good at it <Shrug> there is not a lot I can say about that.
It is line based, it does have a limited number of
functions/operators/etc. However, so do many programming languages.
The good news is that the code compiles to a very compact size and
executes quickly. Customers that we have, who've bothered to learn
it, like it because of the simplicity. Add that we provide our techs
with premade and tested (proven) canned routines in libraries. Such
that all they have to do in most cases is select appropriate routines,
add them together, change the equates at the beginning of the program,
change values of setpoint variables also located at beginning to
customize operation to customer's specs. All of which takes very
little time and uses nothing more complicated than a good text editor.
Then compile and download into unit.
I note that you mention Solopro. A tool, like any other, for direct
manipulation of controller locally. Hmmm. Seems strange that my copy
of Solopro for Windows works just fine. Perhaps what you got was a
1st issue? That was sortta screwed. Not to mention that
Auto-Matrix's instruction left much to be desired. But then, there
have been numerous revisions since and they offered updates for free.
Just like MicroSoft, whose inital offering of many items have been
buggy. But they went back and made fixes and offered updates to
customers.
As concerns front ends. i.e. The Sage. Same sort of line oriented
programming. Simple. Easily implemented. Internal editor sucks and
I don't even know anyone who uses it. Folks I know use their own
favorite text editor, whichever one that might be.
If one understands the way things work, takes little time and nothing
more than a text editor to create the points definition file, make up
any custom BMS programs to meet customer specs, set up simple text
based group menues. And viola, a temporary, working system.
Or maybe, the final version. Depends on what customer paid for. Some
do not want the added expense and settle for the built in capabilities
of the Sage and it's text based interface. Buy the Sage and settle
for that. No additional items needed. Maybe throw in a standard, off
the shelf, NIC card so they can access and manipulate or monitor from
anywhere in their LAN system.
Others want pretty pictures, mouse control, etc. So buy Auto-pilot.
Whereupon we set them up with Windows type displays. To include
pretty buttons to click on, drop down menues, pictures of AHU's with
temps and other current values shown in the appropriate place, dampers
that move, fans that spin, etc. Many seem to prefer that. No
problem. I've worked with several such interfaces, and Auo-Pilot is
about as simple and easy to use as they come. And, of course they can
see the pretty picture from any point along their alrady installed LAN
system. Or dial in via modem. Or if they have the gateway allowed on
their LAN, connect up via the internet from home.
In any event, the hardware is about as reliable as any I've seen. And
I've seen a bunch. Requires no special kind of wires, or special
tricks to install it. The low level network between unitary, stand
alone controllers and Sage is pretty much bullet proof and fault
tolerant compared to most networks I've seen. Etc.
And while I do like TAC a lot. I don't find much to fault Auto-Matrix
about. And the fact is I can install a whole building setup faster,
cheaper, than with TAC. And it will perform as well, or better.
With the exception of the native LON compatibility.
Fact is, some of our customers are not sold on LON. Others don't want
to pay the extra costs.
Same with BacNet. And we sell and install a line of BacNet products.
The truth is, I don't work for Echelon, or BacNet.Org. The customer
hires me, and signs the check. I put in what the customer desires.
To meet the spec the customer gives me, at the price the customer is
willing to pay ... if it can be done.
If the customer is interested, and willing to pay the extra costs, in
Lon or BacNet compatibility, I'm more than willing to fulfill the
request. But some aren't. And that includes some large, big money
customers.
The customer for whom we put in that install I mentioned above, with
the 120 VAVs is a billion dollar a year outfit. That install was just
one of their sites. It's the 12th building of 30 some odd that they
have that we've installed automation for. They are not convinced that
native LON or BacNet compatibility is worth the cost/benefit analysis.
The decision maker for the outfit only wanted to know if he'd be able
to sit at his office in headquarters and see the pretty picture
displays for each building. Look at trends, and energy usage reports
and link cells in his Excel spreadsheet to that data so spreadsheet
would automatically be filled in and he could see his numbers and
bottom line and even display pretty graphs, pie charts or whatever.
We told him it was not a problem, not even a little. And required no
more than what I've mentioned in hardware and software. He was happy,
and we got the contract.
BTW, so far he has not expressed any disappointment. Everything is
doing what he wanted. He's happy. Thinks what he got, for the cost,
was well worth it.
> My comments aren't meant to cause any fights or flames, just honest
>feedback from a large customer of building controls. I am interested to hear
>comments and maybe some advice from other customers, techs, resellers, or
>anyone with an opinion. Also, anyone have a favorite line to use in home
>automation?
>
In home automation? Yeah, my own homebrew method. Nothing fancy. I
tend to think home automation is an overblown concept. As it now
stands. When asked I tell folks the honest truth. Great deal for the
do it yourself type. But if yah pay someone else to do it, don't
expect to REALLY save any money over the lifetime of the equipment
concerned. Nice convenience item for folks with the money to blow for
convenience.
In time I expect the prices and costs will get down low enough to
warrant paying someone else to install. But don't think that time is
here, yet.
Bob
The harder I work,the more my luck seems to improve.
Thomas Jefferson