i just work there

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Jat2074

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May 7, 2001, 8:41:30 PM5/7/01
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ok check this out. i've been working for a heating/cooling company now for 1
year.
i have never taken any refrigeration class of any kind.
in the past year I've changed probably 100 a/c units and probably 25 furnaces.
i worked with someone for my first year and now i'm going to jobs by myself and
a helper. Anyway, what i wanted to know is.
1. Aren't there laws that prohibit me from handling freon? I've heard stories
on the subject but no clear answer. Someone told me that I was legal because
the people I work for are licensed. And as long as they are licensed the people
they employ are legal also.
2. What does everyone do with their old a/c units that they replace?
We just store ours outdoors and uncovered and eventually we get around to
pulling the compressor out and draining the oil into buckets (which we leave
out in the rain). we do charge a disposal fee to the h/o's but never pay to
dispose.
3. What about capisitors? i just chunk them in the trash. But I think they are
supposed to be disposed of in a diffrent way.
anyone with a clear answer on this matter? or does anyone know where i can
find info on the internet?

ftwhd

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May 7, 2001, 9:05:56 PM5/7/01
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I would suggest you call the EPA to find out the answers you've asked
us, that way you will get the straight scoop from the people in the
know.

Whats that number? 1-800 something ozone, I forget. Come on fellas
for once help someone and give him the number. LOL

Mike
UA local 370

ftwhd

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May 7, 2001, 9:10:06 PM5/7/01
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On 08 May 2001 00:41:30 GMT, jat...@aol.com (Jat2074) wrote:

>ok check this out. i've been working for a heating/cooling company now for 1
>year.
>i have never taken any refrigeration class of any kind.

snip

P.S.

Oh yea, Im sure the HVAC hobbyist will be all over this one..

Mike
UA local 370

Craig

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May 7, 2001, 9:14:25 PM5/7/01
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>
> 1. Aren't there laws that prohibit me from handling freon? I've heard stories
> on the subject but no clear answer. Someone told me that I was legal because
> the people I work for are licensed. And as long as they are licensed the people
> they employ are legal also.

Yes most definitely. You need to be EPA certified. Your employers certs do nothing
for you. Sad that your employer/hack lets you put yourself in this position.


>
> 2. What does everyone do with their old a/c units that they replace?
> We just store ours outdoors and uncovered and eventually we get around to
> pulling the compressor out and draining the oil into buckets (which we leave
> out in the rain). we do charge a disposal fee to the h/o's but never pay to
> dispose.

LOL. Ours all get picked up by the scrap man once we remove the oil, refrigerant
and properly label the unit. Seems like its time to find a new job.

Craig

J. S. Nunes

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May 7, 2001, 9:24:35 PM5/7/01
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Try the National Response Center for reporting the "hazardous waste" oil
spills at 1-800-424-8802
Your local EPA and/or DNR office will be contacting you withing just a few
short minutes :-)

"ftwhd" <ft...@usl.com> wrote in message
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Jabarco

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May 7, 2001, 10:07:04 PM5/7/01
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Jat2074 <jat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010507204130...@ng-fw1.aol.com...

> 1. Aren't there laws that prohibit me from handling freon? I've heard
stories
> on the subject but no clear answer. Someone told me that I was legal
because
> the people I work for are licensed. And as long as they are licensed the
people
> they employ are legal also.


Dear Jat2074,
Call the EPA's Ozone Infomation Hotline @ 1-800-296-1996 and ask for the
Section 608 Enforcement Officer. He will be glad you called. Or you can go
to:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/enforce/technicians.html to learn more.

Jabarco


Jat2074

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May 7, 2001, 11:36:00 PM5/7/01
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i appreciate everyones advice and input.
but i don't think i want to call and report anyone. i'm not trying to get
anyone in trouble and after all... it does pay the bills for now. i think it's
time to look for another place to work. once again, thanks for the info
everyone.

Earle Edomm

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May 7, 2001, 11:54:03 PM5/7/01
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You've accidentally trolled into alt.hvac You should be in, no you're
needed in alt.home.repair You could be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams
over there; here you're likely to succumb to famine as Jabs lounging on his
new furniture, strums "Another One Bites The Dust" on a worn yet, quite
serviceable, obviously sentimental guitar. An interesting instrumental
juxtaposition considering only the purchasing power he leaves as a tip for a
daily morning coffee. Singularly reminiscent of the mysterious habits of
the Ferengi Patricians

BTW, Do you think I could get out of a speeding ticket if, with my finger up
my nose, I babbled on about how though I'd heard bits and pieces about this
"traffic law thing" I just didn't know......

Yours in utter amazement,

Earle


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server12

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May 8, 2001, 1:17:54 AM5/8/01
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You're kidding right?
-s12


"Jat2074" <jat...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Dave & Nicole Herrington

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May 8, 2001, 2:10:40 AM5/8/01
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What do you do with asbestos and lead?

Does this mean we will have to recover the 6000 lbs out of our ice rink when we
dump the system next month?

Actually - I rarely work with refrigerants or asbestos, but they still require me
to hold a universal card and a 40 hr abatement license.

Dave

Jabarco

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May 8, 2001, 11:41:04 AM5/8/01
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Jat2074, relax. I found what you wanted to hear from us and it's current as
of May 4, 2001.

40 CFR - CHAPTER I - PART 82
§ 82.161 Technician certification.
(6) Apprentices are exempt from this requirement provided the apprentice is
closely and continually supervised by a certified technician while
performing any maintenance, service, repair, or disposal that could
reasonably be expected to release refrigerant from appliances into the
environment. The supervising certified technician is responsible for
ensuring that the apprentice complies with this subpart.

For more info, click the link below:
http://ecfrback.access.gpo.gov/otcgi/cfr/otfilter.cgi?DB=1&SORTBY=%42%49%42%
53%52%54&ACTION=View&QUERY=&RGN=%42%54%49&OP=and&QUERY=%74%65%63%68%6E%69%63
%69%61%6E%20%63%65%72%74%69%66%69%63%61%74%69%6F%6E&OP=and&QUERY=&OP=and&QUE
RY=&OP=and&SUBSET=SUBSET&FROM=1&SIZE=10&ITEM=7

Jat2074 <jat...@aol.com> wrote in message

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Jabarco

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May 8, 2001, 11:47:00 AM5/8/01
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Jat2074, you might have to copy and paste the entire hyperlink below to your
address bar to get there.
Jabarco

Jabarco

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May 8, 2001, 12:23:27 PM5/8/01
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CTV

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May 8, 2001, 1:57:29 PM5/8/01
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Jat2074: You shouldn´t take any chance on that. You must be certified to do
that type of work. The fine is $27,500, and any customer that is aware of
the law will call EPA as they will get a $10,000 reward for turning you in.
If you need additional information please let me know. I will be glad to
help you with any information regarding this subject.


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Earle Edomm

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May 8, 2001, 3:22:08 PM5/8/01
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Before he relaxes he might want to check with the EPA. I went down that
road several years ago and got it in writing for my own protection when
training apprentices. An apprentice is only an apprentice if he is in a
registered federal program. Furthermore if he works by himself he is in no
way "closely and continually supervised"

He's got a computer and figured out how to get to a newsgroup but with more
than a years experience in the trade he knows so little about the industry
that he asks that question here. I think I hear a trolling motor.......


Earle

Jabarco <bul...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Don Ocean

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May 8, 2001, 5:02:07 PM5/8/01
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Too late!! 65 people here are now fighting over the bounty($10,000)
for turning him in. ;-)

Greg

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May 7, 2001, 11:10:20 PM5/7/01
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Run, don't walk to another job before the EPA gets you and your employer!!
Do you have a spare $10,000 or more laying around to pay your fines?
You need to be certified to handle refrigerants, your employers license does
not cover you!
Your employer is breaking hazardous waste disposal laws also!
Greg


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CTV

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May 9, 2001, 2:48:29 PM5/9/01
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Too bad! There will be 65 losers. I will only turn in someone who is
breaking the laws being congnizant of it; never someone that did it for
ignorance and is seeking information to comply with the laws. I hope you
were kidding!


"Don Ocean" <doc...@qwest.net> escribió en el mensaje
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Feyd

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May 9, 2001, 6:53:09 PM5/9/01
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Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I don't always agree with the law,
but who am I to change things. I am neither female or gay and it seems
that those are the are the only people they listen too.

Don Ocean

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May 9, 2001, 8:54:06 PM5/9/01
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Of course I was kidding.... But the message is: Someone,
somewhere just may do just that. Get it straightened out
before disaster hits. Ignorance in this field can financially
destroy a small business. And if your business insurance
gets wind your not certified... They will drop you from
your liability....even though fines are not covered by
the policy. Always have your financial back covered.
I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I
play poker, hunt and fish etc with my competitors.
We are family in this business.. Okay! Okay! so we
have a few family spats from time to time. But thats
mostly educational and to relieve the boredom. ;-)
Don Ocean
Sioux Falls, SD

PS This ole Maverick turns nobody, notime, in!! That doesn't preclude pioneer
justice though.;-)

Feyd

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May 9, 2001, 10:03:16 PM5/9/01
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Thank God it is that way where you live. Where I live it's a dog eat
dog world. The back stabbing runs rampant around this area. I can
remember back about 7 years ago when it was a family; then it turned
into a business. I long for the good old days.

On Wed, 09 May 2001 19:54:06 -0500, Don Ocean <doc...@qwest.net>
wrote:

Earle Edomm

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May 9, 2001, 11:13:22 PM5/9/01
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Gosh, officer I wasn't cognizant of the fact and it was ignorance of the law
when I ran that red light and killed three kids. That makes it okay, right.
Oh and by the way, it's a shame when a guy makes a post like that and has to
come back and explain he was kidding. If we got everybody here to type
slower would that help your understanding in the future?

Earle


CTV <t@t.t> wrote in message news:3af98ff4@news...

ftwhd

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May 11, 2001, 7:30:32 PM5/11/01
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Gosh officer I didn't see the motorcyclist I killed while making a
left turn in front of him..

Officer; That's ok, its not your fault. No ticket, no charges, have a
nice day.

Gosh officer I didn't see the car stopped in the street and Im sure
sorry it blew up killing all the occupants.

Officer: Your going to jail for involuntary manslaughter bub.

Moral: its ok to kill a biker but you better not kill anyone in a car.
Happens every day and I don't get it.

Mike
UA local 370

On Wed, 9 May 2001 22:13:22 -0500, "Earle Edomm" <co...@directlink.net>
wrote:

gerry

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May 11, 2001, 8:01:42 PM5/11/01
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Although I would never recommend it, it is completely legal to replace an AC
unit without any certification (from an EPA perspective, local regulations
may be stricter).

The way:

1 - Scrap the old system. Technician certification is not required for
individuals removing refrigerant from appliances in the waste stream. EPA
certified recovery equipment and methods must still be used.

2 - Install a precharged split system which meets the EPA requirements under
the 1995 stay on sale of refrigerants regarding pre-charged systems.

I said legal, not practical, cost effective or sensible! The one time cost
of recovery equipment and disposal of the recovered refrigerants would
probably cost a lot more than any savings. I didn't even mention the cost of
a botched job.

gerry
.......

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

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May 11, 2001, 8:45:30 PM5/11/01
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

On Sat, 12 May 2001 00:01:42 GMT, gerry <gerr...@gogood.com> wrote:


>The way:
>
>1 - Scrap the old system. Technician certification is not required for
>individuals removing refrigerant from appliances in the waste stream. EPA
>certified recovery equipment and methods must still be used.

Arguing with myself, depending upon which EPA page document you read, this
is either true as stated or restricted to equipment "typically" disposed
with its charge intact. That would exclude most central air systems which
are not "typically" disposed with their charge intact.

ftwhd

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May 12, 2001, 4:52:15 AM5/12/01
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What equipment is typically disposed of with the charge intact?

Mike
UA local 370

gerry

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May 12, 2001, 9:39:49 AM5/12/01
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

Refrigerators, window units, automobiles... Somebody in the waste stream
must remove the charge before the appliance reaches it's final resting place
or is destroyed and that person does not need an EPA certification. They can
even use home made equipment provided it meets (and form filed) the same
requirements as new EPA certified equipment.

I found two references at the EPA site - the first just stated "appliances
in the waste stream". The 2nd prefaced it with "typically disposed..."

Both references were under venting regulations, not certification
requirements.

gerry

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May 12, 2001, 10:20:08 AM5/12/01
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 May 2001 04:52:15 -0400, ftwhd <ft...@usl.com> wrote:


>
>What equipment is typically disposed of with the charge intact?

The document I feel is most likely accurate is

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#disposal

but it is a fact sheet, not a regulation.

it states:

"
Safe Disposal Requirements

Under EPA's rule, equipment that is typically dismantled on-site before
disposal (e.g., retail food refrigeration, central residential air
conditioning, chillers, and industrial process refrigeration) has to have
the refrigerant recovered in accordance with EPA's requirements for
servicing. However, equipment that typically enters the waste stream with
the charge intact (e.g., motor vehicle air conditioners, household
refrigerators and freezers, and room air conditioners) is subject to special
safe disposal requirements.

Under these requirements, the final person in the disposal chain (e.g., a
scrap metal recycler or landfill owner) is responsible for ensuring that
refrigerant is recovered from equipment before the final disposal of the
equipment. However, persons "upstream" can remove the refrigerant and
provide documentation of its removal to the final person if this is more
cost-effective.

The equipment used to recover refrigerant from appliances prior to their
final disposal must meet the same performance standards as equipment used
prior to servicing, but it does not need to be tested by a laboratory. This
means that self-built equipment is allowed as long as it meets the
performance requirements. For MVACs and MVAC-like appliances, the
performance requirement is 102 mm of mercury vacuum and for small
appliances, the recovery equipment performance requirements are 90 percent
efficiency when the appliance compressor is operational, and 80 percent
efficiency when the appliance compressor is not operational.

Technician certification is not required for individuals removing
refrigerant from appliances in the waste stream.
"

gerry

ftwhd

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May 12, 2001, 7:42:00 PM5/12/01
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I read this and your other post and all I have to say is that your
interpretations of the regs are full of more shit than a Christmas
turkey and are not grounded in reality. Have you ever considered
woodworking as a past time?

Mike
UA local 370

gerry

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May 12, 2001, 10:02:53 PM5/12/01
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[clipped as a courtesy to other readers]
On Sat, 12 May 2001 19:42:00 -0400, ftwhd <ft...@usl.com> wrote:


The only question you asked was:

>What equipment is typically disposed of with the charge intact?

then stated, after my replies:

>I read this and your other post and all I have to say is that your

>interpretations...

I exactly quoted

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#disposal

No interpretation was included. Perhaps you could be a bit more specific as
to the point you intended to make.

Earle Edomm

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May 12, 2001, 10:12:11 PM5/12/01
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Come on Mike, rotating electrically driven cutting tools.... be nice

Earle

J. S. Nunes

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May 12, 2001, 10:28:32 PM5/12/01
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gotta be qualified on something sharper than a crayon first

"Earle Edomm" <co...@directlink.net> wrote in message
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CBHVAC

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May 13, 2001, 1:39:45 AM5/13/01
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But..wait..but..you mean...oh no...you mean....oh heaven forbid that
recovery and recycle certificate is bogus....

How in the heck did you get that a person removing refrigerants does NOT
have to be certified in handling from that? It says NO PLACE that they do
NOT have to have a cert....

--

"gerry" <gerr...@gogood.com> wrote in message
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ftwhd

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May 13, 2001, 7:32:46 AM5/13/01
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My points are;

1. There is no way a scarp yard or SE (sanitation engineer) is going
to take a refrigerator, freezer, window shaker ect without it first
being properly recovered, tagged as such with the EPA number of the
person who did said recovery.

2. You just cant make some hookey home made recovery machine and call
it good. You have to send to the EPA the make, model and serial
number, and year of manufacture to the EPA.

3. You have to be certified to recover refrigerant, and break into
all refrigeration systems.

4. The little snippets you quote are largely out of context, meaning
that the final person in the disposal chain makes sure that the
refrigerant was properly recovered by a certified technician. So
there are not actually disposed of with refrigerant intact.

5. The regs are full of catch 22's.

6. You spend way too much time reading into the regs what you view as
facts to validate what ever position you want to take at the time.

7. Your post indicates that recovery does not have to be preformed by
a certified technician on the equipment you listed which is absolute
BS.

8. Your a HVAC hobbyist and not qualified to give professional
advice, your posts should be prefaced with some type of disclaimer
stating that you have very limited hands on experience and most of
what you have learned has been the result of hanging around here for
years and spending countless hours surfing the net for information.

9. You need to find another hobby and quit trying to mislead people
about EPA regs by posting small snippets of the regulations.

10. It is highly probable that there is no EPA certified personnel in
the employ of any scrap yard or land fill to do legal recovery.

Mike
UA local 370


gerry

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May 13, 2001, 9:08:03 AM5/13/01
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 13 May 2001 01:39:45 -0400, "CBHVAC" <in...@carolinabreezehvac.com>
wrote:

>But..wait..but..you mean...oh no...you mean....oh heaven forbid that
>recovery and recycle certificate is bogus....
>
>How in the heck did you get that a person removing refrigerants does NOT
>have to be certified in handling from that? It says NO PLACE that they do
>NOT have to have a cert....


Argue with the EPA, I didn't author the last sentence:

"Technician certification is **not required** for individuals removing


refrigerant from appliances in the waste stream."

Again, I didn't write it, or interpret it - those are EPA words, not mine. I
added the "**" so you would see it this time. That is the only modification.

Earle Edomm

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May 13, 2001, 9:45:50 AM5/13/01
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Do you know of any of any scrap or junkyards that observe that rule? Every
single one that I know of WILL NOT under any circumstances accept these
items without the "certificate of certified refrigerant removal" from an EPA
certified person. I'm not saying your wrong here Jerry, just that for
practical purposes they won't do it. My understanding from them is that if
they did it the EPA would be all over them like a duck on a June bug to make
sure they followed the rules correctly. While they may be able to do it,
they would be subject to EPA record-keeping and EPA audits. For a pittance
they may as well use a certified employee thus ensuring the employee knows
the proper procedures. While everyone is subject to EPA rules and
record-keeping anyway an uncertified person who recovers legally is kind of
like an poor innocent uninsured motorist in an old jalopy who has a wreck
with an insured motorist, whose at fault, in a new luxury car. The jalopy
guy might be right but can he afford the defense against a wealthy insurance
company.
The EPA certification is nothing more than a minimum standard that is a
measure of proof that an individual understood the important rules well
enough to pass a test. Compare that to someone that has no proof other than
an interpretation in the Federal Register. Remember that the EPA compliance
officers will move quickly to ensure the safety of the environment, as they
should, and move slowly to approve something that may hurt it. Six or seven
years ago I asked the regional EPA office for a clarification of the term
apprentice, as used to allow non-certified persons to handle refrigerants in
a learning environment. After three weeks of waiting for an answer I
started pressing harder and harder and after about six weeks I got the
answer verbally. It took another six weeks to get it in writing. Could a
business tolerate a shutdown for that period of time while they sorted
everything out. Why not just have certified employees? It would be too
easy for someone to complain about the business to the EPA, the EPA check
and find no certified employees, then stop everything while they audit
records.

Earle .


be certified as spend the time to be certified and ensure circumvent


gerry <gerr...@gogood.com> wrote in message

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gerry

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May 13, 2001, 10:07:44 AM5/13/01