Carrier 58MXA blower not running
Mike Bean
compressor outside is running fine, and the LED on the Carrier is not
throwing any error codes. The blower won't run, even when I set the
tstat fan setting to On. I've replaced the thermostat with my old
mechanical one, and same problems. I then ran the self-test cycle on
the furnace, and when it gets to the part where it's supposed to cycle
the blower on low and high, I only hear the relays clicking, but the
blower doesn't budge. The fan turns freely, so it's not seized. The
furnace was installed in the spring of '99. I've seen some posts of
problems with the control board on earlier versions of this furnace,
but mine appears to be a later version, as the control board is
already installed in the blower housing.
My thoughts now are that either the control board relay is bad, or
that the capacitor is bad. Any of these issues common? Any ballparks
on what these parts would cost?
Thanks,
Mike
BGBevill
Or the motor??
Bubba
Replace the thermostat with a better digital programmable one by
Hunter or Lux. That should get you up and running.
Bubba :-)
Mike Bean
mechanical t-stat on, which worked fine 4 years ago when I swapped it
out with the electronic one. Also, the self test on the furnace is
not dependant on the tstat (in fact, you need to disconnect the tstat
before running the self test) and the blower didn't run for either the
low or high speed during the self test.
Bubba <ReMoVEl...@iname.com> wrote in message news:<7qqhfv84kssq0uqct...@4ax.com>...
CBHvac
this week...take with a grain of salt, and you might learn something.
"Mike Bean" <goo...@rintzler.com> wrote in message
news:86997e56.03062...@posting.google.com...
> Last night the blower motor on my Carrier 58MXA stopped working.
its broke....
> The
> compressor outside is running fine, and the LED on the Carrier is not
> throwing any error codes. The blower won't run, even when I set the
> tstat fan setting to On.
Bet you a new system you replaced the thermostat first...I mean....if the
outside units running, its GOT to be the stat...even though the outside
units controlled by a signal sent FROM THE THERMOSTAT to the AIR HANDLER and
its obviously fine...
> I've replaced the thermostat with my old
> mechanical one, and same problems.
Well...no system for you....you DID....
Damn..I swear, I am gonna start selling stats on the website, and have a no
return policy...
>I then ran the self-test cycle on
> the furnace, and when it gets to the part where it's supposed to cycle
> the blower on low and high, I only hear the relays clicking, but the
> blower doesn't budge.
Um...cause its BROKE?
Did you check the unit correctly? No...
Did you have a clue what you really are doing? No.
Do you have a clue whats really wrong? No..
If you did, you would not be asking for free advice in a forum with
professionals asking for free help..
> The fan turns freely, so it's not seized.
And that means??? Nothing perhaps, other than it didnt like your
thermostat??
Could it be..GASP! that the windings are shot to shit? The start winding
could not have failed....
Shorted?
Nah..its got to be that damn thermostat..
> The
> furnace was installed in the spring of '99. I've seen some posts of
> problems with the control board on earlier versions of this furnace,
> but mine appears to be a later version, as the control board is
> already installed in the blower housing.
>
So...the relevance of that is????
Yours might even be a earlier model..but no one can tell from here...right?
> My thoughts now are that either the control board relay is bad, or
> that the capacitor is bad.
My thoughts are the same as everyone elses in here..
You are probably wrong
You are in over your head
You need to stop now...you may still have a warranty you are about to send
to hell....
You are in no position when its 100F out all over the country to be asking
for free advice on a repair at this time from fully licenced and trained
persons that just pulled over 20 hours...
You need to get someone that understands the proper troubleshooting
procedure that includes a bit more than swapping out a control
switch...(thermostat)
> Any of these issues common?
Umm...when the MOTOR dies, its common practice from well trained, and
licenced persons that do their job correctly to put a new cap in...
And...BTW...you got no trouble codes...so...does that help any?
Its also common for a properly trained person that holds the correct licence
to be able to troubleshoot, repair and get gone in less time than it took
you to tinker, monkey around, and think..AH HA...I have the POWER of the
INTERNET!! and type out a long winded question.
> Any ballparks
> on what these parts would cost?
Yup...I can tell you that if I was doing the repair, IF it was obvious that
the homeowner had tinkered inside, it would be at least a min of $450....and
that would be ballpark lowball...but then...I charged a guy to go fix his
rewiring that was wrong today, for a similar problem, and when it was all
said and done, he fucked up more than $450 worth..
The original repair would have been about $150.
IF you want to continue, remember this...
No legitimate supply center will sell to you at wholesale...if at all...
Totaline (Carrier) will not sell direct to a homeowner....ever.
Just looked in the TotalLine catalog, and not only is that an expensive
motor, they have several that could be listed for your unit, and the fun
part is, only one fits, so if you go playing around, and get the wrong
motor...well....it aint gonna be cheap to fix it right the 2nd time around..
Sometimes its cheaper to get it done right....the first time.
Now..you can think me an ass...thats fine. Everyone does. But I tell people
that call and want advice the same thing..I ask in a very direct manner...do
you want it fixed, or are you fishing for free, because my time costs...and
if you want free, call someone else.
I give my time away, at the proper time, and place..
This isnt it.
However, the best advice you will get, over the internet, from someone that
IS properly trained, licenced and in the "know" is to call someone in your
area, that is the same, and allow them to repair the unit. IF you put the
wrong motor in, wire it wrong, and it shorts and burns your home down...you
can only blame yourself...if THEY do it, you have protection from their
insurance.
I have no problems making deals when moneys tight for a homeowner, but I do
have a problem with that same homeowner goes and starts to make life
difficult for the next poor guy that has to go fix your problem, and its
obvious...sorry..that you have no clue what the real problem is..
Now..you can come back later braggin its the cap, and we will all call
BS...since we know what the symptom of that would be...
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
Mike Bean
is so scary to you. Nowhere in my post did I say that I was going to
attempt the repair on the blower motor myself. No where in my post
did I mention that I was trying to find out where to obtain the parts
myself. All I was doing was some simple troublshooting to narrow down
the problem, for two reasons. One, if it had been a bad tstat, the
repair would have been simple, and despite your assurances that only
you are qualified to turn a screw, it's not rocket science. I think
my degree in Electrical Engineering at least qualifies me to change a
thermostat.
The second reason would be so that I can be aware when an unscrupulous
technician such as yourself is trying to rip me off. (From your
message: "IF it was obvious that the homeowner had tinkered inside, it
would be at least a min of $450....and that would be ballpark
lowball...") You don't own your customers equipment. If they break
something, then you are justified to charge to repair it. Not to
arbitrarily jack the price of your service up.
My friendly neighborhood technician was here today to repair the
system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
"CBHvac" <webm...@carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message news:<n69Ka.624$IP6....@eagle.america.net>...
RSCamaro
>How do you figure? I had the same problems when I put my old
>mechanical t-stat on, which worked fine 4 years ago when I swapped it
>out with the electronic one. Also, the self test on the furnace is
>not dependant on the tstat (in fact, you need to disconnect the tstat
>before running the self test) and the blower didn't run for either the
>low or high speed during the self test.
>
>
I guess you didn't catch the dripping sarcasm.
When you call up a contractor I hope you don't find a parts changer.
Good luck.
...Ron
< snip>
--
68' RS Camaro
88' Formula Bird
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>you are qualified to turn a screw, it's not rocket science. I think
>my degree in Electrical Engineering at least qualifies me to change a
>thermostat.
Hell, no , college boy. It qualifies you to bitch about
how someone else does it, as you have exemplified.
Like most EE's you think some piece of paper qualifies you to
go messing with a circuit you've never seen and don't understand,
because some faggot professor said you could.
>The second reason would be so that I can be aware when an unscrupulous
>technician such as yourself is trying to rip me off. (From your
>message: "IF it was obvious that the homeowner had tinkered inside, it
>would be at least a min of $450....and that would be ballpark
>lowball...") You don't own your customers equipment. If they break
>something, then you are justified to charge to repair it. Not to
>arbitrarily jack the price of your service up.
It's called PITA charge. You wanna be a PITA, you gonna buy
the priviledge.
>My friendly neighborhood technician was here today to repair the
>system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
>apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
>your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
>troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
>wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
And it seems your EE shit didn't do you any good, you still
had to call a lowly field tech to come fix it.
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
Bubba
That would explain it all.
Have a nice day.
Bubba
On 25 Jun 2003 16:20:37 -0700, goo...@rintzler.com (Mike Bean) wrote:
Noon-Air
> is so scary to you. Nowhere in my post did I say that I was going to
> attempt the repair on the blower motor myself. No where in my post
> did I mention that I was trying to find out where to obtain the parts
> myself. All I was doing was some simple troublshooting to narrow down
> the problem, for two reasons. One, if it had been a bad tstat, the
> repair would have been simple, and despite your assurances that only
> you are qualified to turn a screw, it's not rocket science. I think
> my degree in Electrical Engineering at least qualifies me to change a
> thermostat.
>
> The second reason would be so that I can be aware when an unscrupulous
> technician such as yourself is trying to rip me off. (From your
> message: "IF it was obvious that the homeowner had tinkered inside, it
> would be at least a min of $450....and that would be ballpark
> lowball...") You don't own your customers equipment. If they break
> something, then you are justified to charge to repair it. Not to
> arbitrarily jack the price of your service up.
>
> My friendly neighborhood technician was here today to repair the
> system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
> apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
> your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
> troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
> wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
Mike,
I hate fixing the messes that some of my customers make with their HVAC
systems... I just do the job and charge the same prices I charge anybody
else. It just costs the customer a whole lot more in parts and my time to
fix it. Here is a class example....A customer had a blower motor in an
Intertherm unit with electric heat quit operating... I don't know if the
original motor was actually bad or not as the home owner had rigged in an
old (25 year old) Rheem air handler.... They called me when they said they
heard a "pop" and saw some smoke come out the vents.
Here is what I found when I got there;
bad and wrong blower assembly
fried wiring harness
240Volts had been fed into the 24 volt control system from mis-wired blower
This is what it took to fix it and get the system to operate as it was
designed.
new transformer
new sequencers (2)
new fan relay
new thermostat
new control wire run to stat and condenser
new wiring harness
new blower assembly
4 hours of my time
This does not include having to clean the coils because he didn't know there
was supposed to be a filter, or balancing the refrigerent charge
Now....for the best part.... this customer is a EE and thought he could save
a buck by doing it himself.
Experience is a great teacher... but the tuition can be real high...in his
case, the bill was $750
Go ahead and play with your system all you want... you will be able to get
all the colateral damage repaired as well as the original problem...but you
better have a fat wallet.
--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating and A/C
Noon...@comcast.net
The only rule of thumb is that most folks have 2 of them
profft
need the last 3 digits. The MXA is a single stage w/ 2speed fan. The latest
and greatest incarnation of that board is the HK42FZ016 so if you have any #
lower than 016 then the board is bad from jump. Now a trained tech would
test the motor to see if it's good.
"Mike Bean" <goo...@rintzler.com> wrote in message
news:86997e56.03062...@posting.google.com...
CBHvac
bite....
"Mike Bean" <goo...@rintzler.com> wrote in message
news:86997e56.03062...@posting.google.com...
> I'm sorry that your so jaded.
Only of EE's...
But then, you think a piece of paper gives you the right to work on HVAC
equipment...when you cant even design most of it to work anywhere put on
paper...thats ok...
> And I'm sorry that an educated customer
> is so scary to you.
Not even...educated customers know more than you...you are trying to get an
education the hard way...and I PREFER educated customers...they dont go fuck
shit up.
> Nowhere in my post did I say that I was going to
> attempt the repair on the blower motor myself. No where in my post
> did I mention that I was trying to find out where to obtain the parts
> myself. All I was doing was some simple troublshooting to narrow down
> the problem, for two reasons. One, if it had been a bad tstat, the
> repair would have been simple, and despite your assurances that only
> you are qualified to turn a screw, it's not rocket science.
Nope..its thermal dynamics, some physics, liquid dynamics...the list goes
on....its more than how fast one electron hits the others....
right Sparky?
> I think
> my degree in Electrical Engineering at least qualifies me to change a
> thermostat.
Not really....LOL...you and you call me jaded..who lied to you and told you
that you can run a stat? You can do anything you want, but you EE fucks
(appologies to the ones we have in here that have a clue) that think cause
its only 10 wires, you can handle it, are the ones that we end up fixing
more fried transformers for than rednecks that think the R must go to the C,
cause it says so on the can of soda..
>
> The second reason would be so that I can be aware when an unscrupulous
> technician such as yourself is trying to rip me off. (From your
> message: "IF it was obvious that the homeowner had tinkered inside, it
> would be at least a min of $450....and that would be ballpark
> lowball...") You don't own your customers equipment. If they break
> something, then you are justified to charge to repair it. Not to
> arbitrarily jack the price of your service up.
Umm...I would still be LESS than the big company that charges $150 to knock
on your door, a min of $300 for diagnostic time, even if that lasts for 15
minutes, and then $200 in parts that are not needed...so fuck you.
>
> My friendly neighborhood technician was here today to repair the
> system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
> apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
> your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
> troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
> wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
And you, as an EE didnt see that right off? I would be asking WHY the relay
shorted...and hint..its prob gonna do it again real soon...and yea..I still
think you have a problem..but your an EE...have the hell at it...
Oh...BTW bitch, I am not a tech...I do own the company tho...and I call
BULLSHIT on your EE credentials, since the first thing a lowly tech would
check is the back of the board, a real EE would find out why, and be asking
for the part numbers and values of the relay to put just the relay in....
Why is it when someone comes in here, and we call bullshit, the story is
always the same? I am an electrical engeeeeeeeeennneeeeeer...big fucking
whoopy doo..
IF it was the board, and he was your real friendly tech, I really, really,
really hope you didnt pay more than about $70 for the entire
repair...seriously.
Mike Bean
> > system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
> > apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
> > your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
> > troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
> > wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
>
> And you, as an EE didnt see that right off? I would be asking WHY the relay
> shorted...and hint..its prob gonna do it again real soon...and yea..I still
Well, the HVAC technician assured me that everything else checked out
fine, and that it was just a defective board. If it goes again, I am
at their mercy. Since you offered no other helpful suggestions to my
query, I don't know what else you would expect someone to do.
> IF it was the board, and he was your real friendly tech, I really, really,
> really hope you didnt pay more than about $70 for the entire
> repair...seriously.
>
I did pay more. The cost for the part was $300. Again, that was the
point of my original post. But you'd rather attack potential
customers, rather than help them.
modervador
> I think
> my degree in Electrical Engineering at least qualifies me to change a
> thermostat.
True.
However, in Rotors 'n' Motors 301 (a required course in the EE
curriculum), you'd have learnt that a single phase motor with a bad
cap may just sit there and hum, unless you start the shaft spinning by
hand or by foot.
So, since there was no humming, the EE who was curious and wanted to
do some diagnosing would hypothesize that current must not be passing
through the motor. Next on the agenda is obviously to determine why.
Is it open circuit in the motor, or open circuit on the supply side?
That's Circuits 101, which anybody would already know from diagnosing
flashlights (is it bad battery or bad bulb?). So unplug the motor from
the controls and ohm it out. If it's open, you're probably almost
done, look for a trivial bad connection on the terminal block or
suspect an open winding, repair or replace. If it's good, suspect
upstream trouble, but don't quit with the motor just yet. If you have
a low reading or dead short, maybe you found the cause of upstream
trouble that you haven't looked for yet but will be shortly. But just
to be sure, if the windings did read OK, then the motor should run
with reasonable amp readings using a "test harness" substitute power
cable, right? Wouldn't want to burn a new board with a bad old motor
when the test is so easy.
Now on to upstream trouble. Even if you lack a schematic for the
board, the system schematic should have the relays on it, and there
may be more than one blower motor relay for different speeds for
cooling, heating, multistage etc. So it would be pretty easy to find
the one with the burnt contacts, or the cold solder joint that finally
went hiZ and burnt the connection to the PC board, or a bunch of other
simple things, if you're that keen on knowing.
An EE with even minimal circuit building experience would have no
trouble tracking it down to the obvious mechanical failure of moving
parts on the board vs. manufacturing defect in the power circuitry
(cold joint) vs. the unobvious and more complicated "internal failure"
of semiconductors that would indicate need for a new board, because
cost-benefit wise you already know that at this point the replacement
board will be cheaper than your own time diagnosing the failed one,
and though it might be a fun challenge to do it yourself on the off
hours, you have to consider your family and pets sweating all over the
expensive furniture.
.mod.
CBHvac
news:<nLtKa.722>
> > > My friendly neighborhood technician was here today to repair the
> > > system. As it turns out, it was the control board. The blower relay
> > > apparently shorted, and burned a hole through the PCB. So, despite
> > > your assurances and convictions to the contrary, my original
> > > troubleshooting was correct. It seems your 'poster boy homeowner'
> > > wasn't wrong. (I can send pictures if you'd like)
> >
> > And you, as an EE didnt see that right off? I would be asking WHY the
relay
> > shorted...and hint..its prob gonna do it again real soon...and yea..I
still
>
> Well, the HVAC technician assured me that everything else checked out
> fine, and that it was just a defective board. If it goes again, I am
> at their mercy. Since you offered no other helpful suggestions to my
> query, I don't know what else you would expect someone to do.
Actually....I offered you advice...the only advice you should expect in
here...
>
> > IF it was the board, and he was your real friendly tech, I really,
really,
> > really hope you didnt pay more than about $70 for the entire
> > repair...seriously.
> >
>
> I did pay more. The cost for the part was $300. Again, that was the
> point of my original post. But you'd rather attack potential
> customers, rather than help them.
YOU, are NOT a potential customer.
Had you been, I still would have offered the same advice.
The sad part is that I get e-mail all the time FROM potential customers that
like my no bullshit attitude, and those that cant stand what I say...too
bad.
First, I cant make everyone happy, but I CAN fix every machine...one way or
another..its made by man, it can be repaired by..but...
I dont want you working on the next plane I get on..and even though I have
worked for MBB, (AeroBus) I would nto go working on one and expect it to fly
either, even tho, I AM ASE certified in 4 areas...its all mechanical right?
WRong.
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>
>I did pay more. The cost for the part was $300. Again, that was the
>point of my original post. But you'd rather attack potential
>customers, rather than help them.
Are you under the delusion that you're a 'potential customer'
for the person you were responding to ? If not, then why should he
consider you as such ?
Mike Bean
Thanks!
"profft" <f.tayl...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<DytKa.1$qv...@nwrddc04.gnilink.net>...
profft
"Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cc6cnV93OoS...@comcast.com...