Geothermal Scam Warning
c.l...@erols.com
I bought a geothermal heating/cooling system for my home based on the
marketing hype of the geothermal industry and the written promises of a
local geothermal system supplier. And I got BURNED, REALLY BAD!! Watch
out for geothermal systems. I thought that I knew what I was doing but
these guys really took me for a ride. Take my advice and stay clear of
geothermal systems (sometimes known as geoexchange). And do your
friends, neighbors, co-workers, family, and Email correspondents a
favor by telling them to avoid geothermal/geoexchange systems like the
plague. (Please forward this message to your Email address list.) If I
can help you with specifics, please contact me. Charlie Lowe (215) 699-
5836 c.l...@erols.com (BTW: There's nothing in this for me except for
the satisfaction of saving as many people as possible from the
"Geothermal Scam".)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jim Behning
Do not know because I am not willing to build another identical house
on my property to compare. My house is comfortable winter and summer
and my hot water heater is only turned on about 4 weeks a year. My
heat is not hot enough to burn me but warm enough to keep me
comfortable and my hot water has a thermostat to turn it off if it
gets to hot. Maybe you are around those hot well areas where steam
comes out of the ground.
c.l...@erols.com wrote:
Jim B.
Tim
>
> WARNING WARNING WARNING
> I bought a geothermal heating/cooling system for my home based on the
> marketing hype of the geothermal industry and the written promises of a
> local geothermal system supplier. And I got BURNED, REALLY BAD!! Watch
> out for geothermal systems. I thought that I knew what I was doing but
> these guys really took me for a ride. Take my advice and stay clear of
> geothermal systems (sometimes known as geoexchange). And do your
> friends, neighbors, co-workers, family, and Email correspondents a
> favor by telling them to avoid geothermal/geoexchange systems like the
> plague. (Please forward this message to your Email address list.) If I
> can help you with specifics, please contact me. Charlie Lowe (215) 699-
> 5836 c.l...@erols.com (BTW: There's nothing in this for me except for
> the satisfaction of saving as many people as possible from the
> "Geothermal Scam".)
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
system?
c.l...@erols.com
ground type system and I'm located in suburban Philadelphia.
I've copied a letter below that I wrote recently to Popular Science
that outlines my experience with geothermal heating/cooling systems and
why I think the whole geothermal thing is a fraud and a scam. (Sorry
that it doesn't format too well.)
Ms. Cecilia Wessner, Editor
Popular Science Magazine
2 Park Ave. 9th Floor
New York, NY 10016
Dear Ms. Wessner:
Based on the hype of the geothermal industry and the written promises
of a local supplier, I paid big money for an “Advanced” geothermal
heating/cooling system for my home a little over two years ago. Now
much wiser and out of pocket $8500 to $9000, I wish that I could have
read an unbiased article in a magazine such as Popular Science that
included the dark side of geothermal heating/cooling systems before I
made such a stupid mistake to invest in one.
I've come to the conclusion, based on my two years of hands-on
experience, that geothermal heating/cooling systems are far from what
they are claimed to be and you can bet that I will never, ever touch
one again if I can get out from under the one that I have now.
Problems include:
 Supplier promised in writing to reduce my costs of heating and
cooling by more than a factor of
two. Actual operating costs have turned out to be just about
exactly as before.
 Supplier promised in writing to provide a 30-degree temperature
rise in the heated air. The
actual rise is only 15 degrees. Comfort factor is seriously
compromised as a result.
 Supplier voided warranty since he won't return my phone calls nor
accept certified mail from me.
 System is not UL Listed as required by township ordinance and may
well be a serious safety
hazard.
 Supplier's promise to provide a 3 to 4 factor of improvement in
cost of water heating is
undelivered. I can't see any improvement at all and have disabled
the water heating function so
that the unit will run less often and thereby reduce my exposure
to any safety problems which
may lurk in the heat pump unit which is not UL Listed.
 Supplier is required to be licensed by the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania as a Professional
Engineer and, of course, isn't. (An investigation is now underway.)
 Supplier modified the previously existing air handler in my home
and turned it into a fire hazard.
 Supplier violated the Pennsylvania Law concerning a three-day right
of recission on sales made
in the home.
 And, just for completeness, the supplier grossly missed his
promised written installation date.
Of these various problems, the one that grates on me the most is the
supplier's written promise to cut my costs of heating and cooling by
more than a factor of two. I depended on that written promise when I
made the decision to go ahead with the geothermal system. After two
full years of operation my costs of heating and cooling are within –1%
to +2% of where they were with the old Lennox air-to-air heat pump
system - even after paying big bucks for the "Advanced" geothermal
system. And I have more than 13 years of monthly electric bill
information as well as local degree-day heating and cooling information
from NOAA so I can do accurate and fair before-and-after comparisons.
(I seriously doubt that many people who have converted to geothermal
have gone to the trouble of doing detailed, accurate before-and-after
economic performance comparisons like I have.)
Furthermore, there is a marketing organization for the geothermal
industry called the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium, Inc. that is
funded with Federal tax dollars through the EPA and DoE that
advertises, supports and promotes geothermal systems and advertises,
supports and promotes about 800 firms which are in the geothermal
business in one way or another. This marketing hype organization does
not insist on any code of ethics for its members, doesn't seem to care
if its members adhere to local laws, regulations or Building Codes,
doesn’t seem to care if its members are properly trained and licensed,
and doesn't care if unscrupulous or rogue suppliers leave dissatisfied
customers behind. And I am not amused by the fact that MY federal tax
dollars were used, and continue to be used, by this organization to
advertise, support and promote a geothermal supplier who has defrauded
me and, more than likely, many others like me.
Additionally, this organization, in response to my pleadings, hired a
hand selected "Geothermal Expert" who, after much unnecessary delay,
came to my home, thoroughly tested my system and building envelope, and
eventually wrote a report that, in essence, said that the performance
of the system that I have is about as good as it gets! This finding
leads me to believe that the whole geothermal industry is a fraud and a
sham. It’s time that someone told the emperor that he doesn’t have any
clothes on!
I could go on. Does the consuming public know about the toxic and
flammable chemicals used in closed loop plastic pipe geothermal earth
connection systems and do they know why they have to be there? Do they
(and their insurance companies) want these hazardous chemicals in their
homes? Do they know that NO ONE is available to test and certify the
capacity, operating efficiency or economic performance of installed
residential geothermal earth connections, connections that are
absolutely critical to successful geothermal system operation? Do they
know that there is NO backup plan or program in the geothermal industry
to protect consumers in the event that a geothermal system supplier
goes out of business like USPower Climate Control, Inc. did a few years
ago leaving nearly a thousand victims in its wake?
Last but not least: How/where can one get help to deal with a failed
geothermal system and a totally unresponsive supplier? I know; I’ve
been there.
 Better Business Bureaus - Toothless
 Pennsylvania Attorney General’s Office - Ineffective
 Federal Trade Commission - Not interested in the
problems of single individuals
 Consumer Product Safety Commission - Ditto
 Environmental Protection Agency - Ditto
 Department of Energy - Ditto
 Montgomery Cty, PA Consumer Affairs - Joel Landsberg has
been/continues to be helpful
 Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium - Not
interested/capable/responsible/motivated
Why do I invest the time and effort to write this lengthy letter to you?
I believe that you and Popular Science would be doing your readers an
important service, a needed service, a responsible service, if you
would write a comprehensive article for publication in the magazine
concerning the dark side of the geothermal industry. Despite the hype,
the geothermal industry is not all happiness and light, I can tell you
from my personal experience, and someone needs to set the record
straight for the public. I certainly wish that I had been able to read
an objective geothermal system article which included the negative side
before I made my big mistake in deciding to procure such a
heating/cooling system for my home.
This case is quite well documented and if I can help you in any way in
an effort to shed some light on this important matter for the benefit
of the general public, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely yours,
Charles S. Lowe
2240 Berks Road
Lansdale, PA 19446
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
Either you need a lawyer, or you have not presented both sides
of the story here.
Either way, whining in a newsgroup about a generic technology
is meaningless.
You may have been screwed, I can't tell from here, and from
only hearing one side of the story. According to you, there is a vast
conspiracy among an entire industry, and everyone associated with it,
to rip you off.
Then again, I've known customers who make similar statements
about everything from corn flakes to the coming meteor that will
destroy the earth.
If you were screwed by a contractor, you need a lawyer. We
can't help you here. If you were screwed, I hope you win the case,
big time.
If you think there is some sort of geo-thermal industry
conspiracy, you are a loon. If you are a loon, I hope you get help,
or at least go away from here.
In either case, there is nothing for you here.
Paul
--
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
pjm@(remove this part )pobox.com
My WWW site is at http://www.pobox.com/~pjm, featuring free HVAC software.
The Sci.Engr.Heat-Vent-AC and Alt.HVAC FAQ is at http://www.ipass.net/~pjm/hvacfaq.htm
( this space waiting for Popecker to come back )
lowe...@my-deja.com
believing the marketing hype of the geothermal industry and the written
promises of a local supplier.
Jeff Zeman
this group (which you have no reason to be, I understand) you would know
that the advice most of us give is to buy a standard system. An experienced
contractor will most times give an option for a more efficient unit, but it
will still be a standard gas furnace with a "freon" type air conditioner (as
an example).
So why are radically different systems introduced? Because there are always
people looking for a better mousetrap. And this type of thinking generates
new systems and people willing to sell it. Now in comes the salesman who
will say what ever he needs to get the sale. And what is his pitch? I've
got a better mouse trap; you won't believe how many mice I can catch.
I am in the automation part of HVAC and I have seen so many "black boxes"
come and go that I have lost track. Many have come in the form of "a better
mouse trap". But when all is said and done the basic laws of physics
prevail. There is only so much energy that can be removed from a cubic foot
of gas or a kilowatt of electricity and all you can do is cut down on your
losses or find a cheaper place to buy it. It's like cars. If someone says
they can move a two thousand pound car and get 300 mpg they are either lying
or have somehow changed the laws of physics.
Now here is the problem. If I try to make a sale to you, and what you WANT
to hear is "I can cut your bills in half" and all I'm saying is "The best
you can do is 10-15%" who will you buy from? It has been said over and over
again in this news group--find a contractor you can trust and go with his
recommendation.
Jeff Zeman
597 Fitter
Chicago
<lowe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:86lom7$f2q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Just trying to help others avoid making the same mistake that I made in
> believing the marketing hype of the geothermal industry and the written
> promises of a local supplier.
Charles Potter
>
> My geothermal system is a direct exchange, freon-in-copper-in-the-
> ground type system and I'm located in suburban Philadelphia.
>
> I've copied a letter below that I wrote recently to Popular Science
> that outlines my experience with geothermal heating/cooling systems and
> why I think the whole geothermal thing is a fraud and a scam. (Sorry
> that it doesn't format too well.)
It seems like you've done good research on this problem. What do you
think might be wrong with your system ? Did you hear anything back from
PopSci ? Some geothermal systems seem to work.
c.l...@erols.com
I'm certainly no expert in geothermal systems, but I also know a lot
more now than I did before acquiring one. One HVAC guy who came to my
home and who seemed to be both geothermal smart and honest and
genuinely concerned about my perdicament, said that he had seen geo
systems that worked well and he had seen geo systems that didn't work
well - like mine. He said that the difference between the two types,
in his experience, was the amount of piping put into the ground to
serve as the earth connection for heat energy transfer. He suggested
that if I had at least twice as much earth connection, perhaps even a
little more than double, my system would work a whole lot better from
an economic efficiency point of view. He also agreed that if I had
enough earth connection such that the system performed efficiently,
that the additional cost of the additional earth connection would
destroy the whole economic justification for the system.
I generally agree with his opinion.
Trying to get a handle on what was going on in my geo system, I bought
one of those little digital probe thermometers for $20 and went around
measuring temperatures. I have a well for domestic water and if I let
the water run full blast for a long time, the temperature of the water
where it enters the basement stabalizes at 53 degrees F. After running
a long time to achieve stabilization,I meaured the temperature of the
liquid freon after it comes out of the coil in the air handler and as
it goes through the basement wall into the ground and it was 68 to 69
degrees, the normal air temperature in our house in the heating
season. I then measured the temperature of the gaseous freon as it
came back into the house from the underground earth connection field
and it was 25 degrees !! This 25 degree freon gas then goes to the
compressor where it is converted back to a liguid by compression and
it's temperature is thereby raised to about 85 degrees and then it goes
to the coils in the air handler to heat the air for the house. Now, it
seems to me that if that earth connection was worth a dam, that the
freon gas coming back out of the ground would be a whole lot warmer
than 25 degrees and a lot closer to the temperature of the earth, which
is 53 degrees. I could see a 10 degree loss from the 53, say down to
43 degrees, but any more than that and my guess is that there is just
not enough pipe in the ground to realize enough heat energy transfer
with the earth. The piping in the ground is, of course, frozen,i.e.,
what heat energy that is being transfered between the piping and the
earth is actually going through ice. I don't know just exactly how
well ice conducts heat but my gut tells me that it's not very good.
If this indeed is the problem, and I really don't know for sure, then
the fix, a lot more earth connection capacity, would make the overall
geo system so expensive that any operational cost savings would never
catch up with the high initial cost of the system. One would be better
off to take the incremental cost of a properly functioning, efficient
geo system over the cost of a conventional heating/cooling system,
invest this money and use the yield from this investment to defray your
energy bill. I really think that is the bottom line.
I haven't heard back from Pop Sci yet. I'm not too optomistic that
they will want to get involved with this subject, but one never knows.
Meanwhile, be very, very careful with geothermal heating/cooling
systems.
Charlie
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>If this indeed is the problem, and I really don't know for sure, then
>the fix, a lot more earth connection capacity, would make the overall
>geo system so expensive that any operational cost savings would never
>catch up with the high initial cost of the system. One would be better
>off to take the incremental cost of a properly functioning, efficient
>geo system over the cost of a conventional heating/cooling system,
>invest this money and use the yield from this investment to defray your
>energy bill. I really think that is the bottom line.
You have no basis in fact for your conclusions. You do not
have a clue what the hell you are talking about.
While you are tyring to sound like you understand the system,
in point of fact you do not. Your post removes all doubt.
You continue to downgrade an entire technology based
on your personal experience of a few months with exactly one sample
system, your own.
All of your posts, based in your nearly non-existent knowledge
and experience, make as much sense as me saying 'My Chevy couldn't
make it up the hill yesterday, therefore all Chevys suck, and none of
them have any traction' based on that one experience.
I suspect that, no matter what you bought, if there was a
problem, you would condem an industry.
>Meanwhile, be very, very careful with geothermal heating/cooling
>systems.
Be very careful with *anything* you buy. Geothermal systems
are no different. It's called Caveat Emptor.
John Bridgman
probably selling e-commerce software this year..
JB
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote in message ...
RAMMAN
<lowe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:86lom7$f2q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Just trying to help others avoid making the same mistake that I made in
> promises of a local supplier.
I have done a lot of research into Geothermal heat pumps. It appears that
the most efficient is the open loop type which draws up ground well water
and then dumps it back into a second well. On a closed loop system (such as
the one you described) once you rely on the earth to be your heat exchange
you need to be very sure you set up the square footage properly. I have been
told that the most efficient closed loop system uses multiple vertical
piping going down 200'. Even with this system you need to be sure that the
buried pipes are set into continually moist soil so as to aid in their heat
conduction. It is essential that the returning fluid in a closed loop system
be at the highest differential from the outgoing fluid (exiting from your
heat pump).. If the closed loop does not have good conductivity with the
earth it ends up either heating up the earth immediately surrounding it (in
the hot months when you are using it to cool you house) or cooling the earth
(during your heating season). Once this happens the returning to outgoing
fluid differential temperature decreases and with it the efficiency of you
Geothermal system. This is why the open loop system is the most efficient
... ground water temperature is always constant at about 50 deg. F.
Depending on where you live the open loop approach may either be prohibited
by local ordinances or too expensive to install as it usually requires the
drilling of two wells!
Richard Greene
MFelps
<r.gr...@ieee.org> writes:
> have done a lot of research into Geothermal heat pumps. It appears that
>the most efficient is the open loop type which draws up ground well water
>and then dumps it back into a second well. On a closed loop system (such as
>the one you described) once you rely on the earth to be your heat exchange
>you need to be very sure you set up the square footage properly. I have been
>told that the most efficient closed loop system uses multiple vertical
>piping going down 200'.
No type of system is inherrently more effiencient than another! It depends on
the design. An open loop consumes more power in pumping the water since you are
pumping "against gravity". The closed loop 'regains the gravity effect when the
water 'falls' back into the loop.
Given the design conditions , any system can be designed to give equal
performance in any condition. What the deciding factor is would be the cost as
feasibility of the installation. Horizontal loops are equal to vertical loops
if DESIGNED for the same loop temperatures.
Sucess is a marathon, not a sprint.
Sonofdawra
>where it enters the basement stabalizes at 53 degrees F. After running
>a long time to achieve stabilization,I meaured the temperature of the
>liquid freon after it comes out of the coil in the air handler and as
>it goes through the basement wall into the ground and it was 68 to 69
>degrees, the normal air temperature in our house in the heating
>season. I then measured the temperature of the gaseous freon as it
>came back into the house from the underground earth connection field
>and it was 25 degrees !! This 25
>degree freon gas then goes to the
>compressor where it is converted back to a liguid by compression and
>it's temperature is thereby raised to about 85 degrees and then it goes
>to the coils in the air handler to heat the air for the house.
Since you are totally ignorant of how basic refrigeration works by what you
wrote above, I will try to take a few minutes to educate you. You may have
been ripped off, but the geothermal heat pump industry is like any other and
not everyone is honest or quallified. The WaterFrunace that I use to heat/cool
my shop/lab area has done a great job without missing a lick in probably the 6
or 7 years that it has been installed. It does not use refrigerant in its
ground loop but instead uses a mixture of distilled water and methanol. the
"freon" never leaves the cabinet of the air handler in this type.
Now back to your basic refrigeration lesson. When you are heating, the
compressor pumps the returning low pressure cool vapor rasing the pressure and
temperature of the vapor quite a bit. This vapor now travels to the coil in
the air handler where the duct air blows over the coil removing heat from the
high temperature vapor and makes it cool and condense to liquid refrigerant.
The removal of heat from the vapor is how the duct air is heated. On a
properly operating geothermal of you type, I would guess an air temperature
rise across the finned indoor coil of about 30 to 35 degrees F [this is a sight
unseen professional guess].
The high pressure liquid refrigerant leaves the indoor coil and is piped to the
pressure reducing device that feeds the refrigerant to the ground loop. If I
understood your posts correctly, you are putting the "freon" in the ground
loop.
>as
>it goes through the basement wall into the ground and it was 68 to 69
>degrees,
If your return air temp. is about 70 degrees, then I would expect the above
temperature to be at least 10 degrees higher [again a sight unseen professional
guess]. This would be measuring line temperature where it leaves the air
handler----you may be cooling the liquid refrigerant down some more if you have
a long liquid line between the air handler and where the line goes through the
basement wall.
Now the liquid refrigerant is vaporized in the ground loop. The pressure
reducing device lowers the pressure of the liquid so that the liquid will boil
off to vapor at a temperature below the ground temperature. If your ground
temperature is around 53 degrees F like you seem to imply, then the refrigerant
has to be boiled off a reasonable number of degrees colder than the ground
temperature in order to get heat transfer. The refrigerant must boil off at a
temperature below the ground temperature because heat flows from warm to cool.
As the refrigerant changes state, it absorbs most of the heat that it is going
to absorb during this change of state process. This is a latent heat process
associated with change of state. Latent heat means hidden heat. Any substance
that changes state either has to absorb or release this "latent heat" during
the change of state process. When the refrigerant vapor condenses, it is going
to a lower energy state, so it gives up the latent heat. When liquid goes to
vapor, it absorbs the latent heat.
Now the question is "Does a temperature of 25 degrees returning from the ground
loop look reasonable?" Since I don't know the engineering design parameters of
the equipment, I really can't say for sure. It is reasonable-----that means it
is not way out in left field-----but is it right, can you hold the moniter
closer to the unit so I can get a better look :o) I would need refrigerant
pressures to have some more data to work with. Without more data, I am just
guessing and from this keyboard my guesses aren't always correct even with
better data.
I am sure that you feel that you have been screwed, but I know a doctor that
operated on me once who was a quack that nearly killed me, does that make all
doctors quacks? Now if you want to compare stories, this one was a real life
and death story [sorry I cheated the Grim Reaper on that one]. But then that
is a different story............
If you are going to accomplish something, don't waste your time with anything
other than a lawyer and an engineering firm with the ability to actually
truthfully evaluate the system. Now to go that route, you will probably spent
$40,000 trying to get back $9000 with no guarantee that even if you prove your
case that you ever will see a penny.
Best to learn from the experience and move on. The next time someone makes you
such a claim as cutting your heating/cooling bills in half, remember, "IF IT
SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY ISN'T TRUE."
Hope you now have a better grasp on it all. Go cool off [sounds like you can
do that just fine in your house] and begin to smell the roses. Life is too
short to get on such a crusade.
Have a nice day, Ron
MWGARDNER
using equipment that is not even UL approved. You are trashing the geothermal
industry when it is obvious you did a poor job of researching a product you
were spending thousands on. Direct Exchange units (refrigerant lines buried
underground) like an Yugo. No reputable, long standing HVAC manufacturer
offers it. Many offer open and closed loop water recirulating systems that
work wonderfully. It is a real shame that for what you spent you could have
likely had a Water Furnace geoexchange unit with a closed ground loop that
could deliver on it's promises and more. Take consolation that you are part of
a large group that buys products and services based upon exagerated claims,
never taking time to check it out,
gerryg
hard data on lifetime cost of ownership/operation even for water loop
systems. Even water loop systems can be very expensive to maintain and
horrible should the ground loop break. Of course, this varies a lot
depending upon what is built over the loop and ground conditions.
This is not a disagreement, just that I haven't ever found convincing
lifetime data. But you can't even find real data on hot water heaters
(electric vs gas - they never factor in the typical gas heater is half
the size of an electric thus standing loses are different) or modern
high efficiency gas furnaces either :(
This last comment re furnaces is based upon the dramatic cost
reductions and plain cheaper designs out there now. Old gas burners
lasted a long time. Stamped, plated sheet steel burners die in no time
if they are near a laundry room, not uncommon in many house designs.
Probably another good reason to only install a furnace that uses
outside air exclusively and watch where the builder puts the dryer
vent. Blowers are not balanced by drilling divots anymore, they often
use little spring steel clips the fall off randomly...
And lastly, who the heck has lifetime costs of a Puron AC system?
gerry
.......
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