two apartments, one thermostat
pvg
Hoping for some suggestions on how to keep my tenants happy.
I own a house with a three bedroom rental suite down and another 3
bedroom up.
They are both heated by the same Lennox Pulse propane furnace.
There is a thermostat located in each suite. When the downstairs
tenant leaves the house for the day they often leave the heat turned
up after cranking it in the morning to take the chill off. The
downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked up all
night in case the child kicks off his blankets in the middle of the
night.
Unfortunately for the upstairs tenants they are roasting and have no
control with their thermostat to turn the heat down.
I have thought about doing a couple of things:
1. Having the upstairs thermostat override the downstairs theremostat
when necessary. However I am aware that this could easily start a war.
2. Installing a couple of baseboard heaters into critical areas of the
downstairs suite.
3. Installing an electric monitor style heater. I believe they make
them so that they are portable and can be moved from room to room. My
concern is safety.
Does anybody have any ideas? or run into this situation before?
Thanks,
Paul
Tom Pendergast
> Hi all,
> Hoping for some suggestions on how to keep my tenants happy.
> I own a house with a three bedroom rental suite down and another 3
> bedroom up.
> They are both heated by the same Lennox Pulse propane furnace.
> There is a thermostat located in each suite. When the downstairs
> tenant leaves the house for the day they often leave the heat turned
> up after cranking it in the morning to take the chill off. The
That should tell you all you need to know...
> downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked up all
> night in case the child kicks off his blankets in the middle of the
> night.
...and that should tell you even more!
> Unfortunately for the upstairs tenants they are roasting and have no
> control with their thermostat to turn the heat down.
(Speaking here as a landlord)
In this case, two live thermostats is two too many, IMHO.
Immediate things you need to recognize/admit:
Your downstairs tennant ("DT") is a) not too smart
and b) incredibly selfish.
Smarts: They obviously don't know that "cranking it up" doesn't
make it get any warmer any faster.
Since there's only one furnace, I can only assume that there is
some sort of shared payment for the heat, or maybe you include it
in the rent? In any case, that's where the "selfish" part comes
in. Your DT thinks you or you and your UT should pay or the fact
that their child can't keep the covers on at night. With that
kind of mentality, I would also bet that your DT and child are
running around in bare feet while that furnace is "cranked up"
in the AM.
What I would do, as a solution? DT (by their selfish nature)
would never go for a programmable, so that's out of the question,
so you need to set a basic downstairs thermostat to somewhere
around 70 degrees and encase it in a serious locking enclosure
("serious" = something that DT can't pick with a paperclip.)
If that's not good enough for them, tough cookies. You are
fufilling your obligation to heat the place, they can move or
try and sue you, they have nary a prayer of winning.
Meanwhile, UT will now have a constant supply to deal with (not
the case when DT is constantly varying the temperature) so they
can begin to try and regulate their heat by tweaking register
openings. If it turns out -both- are too cold, unlock the cover
and bump it up by 1 or 2 degrees, then lock it up again.
HTH.
TP
Scott McDaniel
this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole place last
year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys ... sorry about that, I've been
dealing with an evil landlord this past week and needed to vent <grin>.
BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all. You can't regulate
temperature by tweaking the registers. There will be no "constant supply";
the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the system is on, not as
needed. Unless you implement intelligent changes, the upstairs will ALWAYS
be warmer (usually much warmer) than the downstairs.
"pvg" <p...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:d82e91c2.03011...@posting.google.com...
Michael Taurus
"Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote
> Put in two systems OR zone the damn thing. Find someone who has dealt with
> this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole place last
> year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys
TWO CASES!!!!!!
Damn! I only got ONE case of Milwaukee's Best AND THEY WERE 12 OUNCERS!!!!!
;-]
Tom Pendergast
> Put in two systems OR zone the damn thing. Find someone who has dealt
> with this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole
> place last year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys ... sorry about
> that, I've been dealing with an evil landlord this past week and
> needed to vent <grin>.
Geez, you forgit to tell him "DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU MIGHT BLOW
SOMETHING UP!!!"
> BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all.
Horse manure.
> You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
disabled, but that's fine.
> There will be no
> "constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
> system is on, not as needed.
No kidding.
I think I covered that part too, but here we go again:
"constant supply" being defined in this case as "downstairs
tennant no longer changing the target temperature 6 times
a day". If upstairs tennant tweaks his registers to handle
the times when DT is trying to run the place up to 80 degrees,
he's going to be cold when DT returns to sanity.
Likewise, if UT adjusts the openings to handle a "normal"
setting from DT, he will still get airflow for too long of a
period when DT is pushing for 80 degrees.
> Unless you implement intelligent changes,
Yep. "SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP OR YOU WILL BLOW UP!!!", huh?
> the upstairs will ALWAYS be warmer (usually much warmer) than the
> downstairs.
If UT acts to restrict airflow by partially closing registers,
he will still get airflow through them, but the total supply of
warm air will favor the path of least resistance, going to the
first floor. Basic physics and common sense there, sorry I'm
not a licensed perfessional, but that's how things work.
TP
JimL
<scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>Put in two systems OR zone the damn thing. Find someone who has dealt with
>this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole place last
>year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys ... sorry about that, I've been
>dealing with an evil landlord this past week and needed to vent <grin>.
>
>BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all. You can't regulate
>temperature by tweaking the registers. There will be no "constant supply";
>the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the system is on, not as
>needed. Unless you implement intelligent changes, the upstairs will ALWAYS
>be warmer (usually much warmer) than the downstairs.
>
>
And I might add you should hire yourself a good attorney since you
evidently are not going to provide minimal support for your tenants.
JL
Tom Pendergast
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
>>BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all. You can't
>>regulate temperature by tweaking the registers. There will be no
>>"constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
>>system is on, not as needed. Unless you implement intelligent changes,
>>the upstairs will ALWAYS be warmer (usually much warmer) than the
>>downstairs.
> And I might add you should hire yourself a good attorney since you
> evidently are not going to provide minimal support for your tenants.
Geez, another HVAC wizard lacking in reaing comprehension skills.
I'll take my chance is any court in the land and tell them that
I set the thermostat to 70-74 degrees and restricted access to it.
We obviousle need to add a few words to the creed for this place:
"DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU MIGHT BLOW UP *OR SOMEONE WILL SUE YOU*!"
As soon as you install the lock box, you have DT sign an
agreement stating that you will leave it set at 7* degrees,
they will not tamper with it, and they will notify you
immediately if there are any problems. They won't sign it?
terminate their lease ASA legally P. You get a newspaper
showing the date, have somebody hold it up next to the numbers
on the thermostat, and take a couple of pictures showing the
vital information. Repeat as necessary.
UT situation changes not one single bit. They remain entirely
dependent upon the whims of DT.
TP __________________________________________
Anybody can follow Gordon, Tony, or Dale Jr.,
show some intestinal fortitude: Back a Bodine.
Scott McDaniel
news:Xns93015F3287E...@130.133.1.4...
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
> > Put in two systems OR zone the damn thing. Find someone who has dealt
> > with this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole
> > place last year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys ... sorry about
> > that, I've been dealing with an evil landlord this past week and
> > needed to vent <grin>.
>
> Geez, you forgit to tell him "DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU MIGHT BLOW
> SOMETHING UP!!!"
Sorry, I don't know where my head was:
Paul: DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU MIGHT BLOW SOMETHING UP!!!
>
> > BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all.
>
> Horse manure.
>
> > You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
>
> You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
> can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
> air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
> I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
> disabled, but that's fine.
>
Jeez, and for years I've been installing multiple systems in two & three
story homes. I could have better served my customers (and not ripped them
off) by installing one system, a lockbox, and tweaking some registers!! But
that's what they get for calling a professional!!
You can play with the registers all you want. It won't make any real
difference. Without controls in place to sense and maintain temperature and
provide heating/cooling when AND where needed, you'll never alleviate this
problem. You may make it slightly better by implementing some of your
suggestions, but there are other factors at play (see other comments).
And thanks for spelling it out for me. I have a hard time following idiocy.
> > There will be no
> > "constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
> > system is on, not as needed.
>
> No kidding.
>
> I think I covered that part too, but here we go again:
> "constant supply" being defined in this case as "downstairs
> tennant no longer changing the target temperature 6 times
> a day". If upstairs tennant tweaks his registers to handle
> the times when DT is trying to run the place up to 80 degrees,
> he's going to be cold when DT returns to sanity.
> Likewise, if UT adjusts the openings to handle a "normal"
> setting from DT, he will still get airflow for too long of a
> period when DT is pushing for 80 degrees.
>
Tom, Tom, Tom ...
The upstairs "tennant" is going to get airflow ONLY when the downstairs
"tennant" calls for heat. However, that's not as bad as the fact that the
upstairs "tennant" will get airflow EVERY TIME the downstairs "tennant"
calls for heat, whether or not he needs it.
Plus, how do you know when the downstairs "tennant" is comfortable? I've
been doing this for 20 years, and I've run across plenty of people who keep
temperatures VERY high in the winter and VERY low in the summer.
Of course the obvious solution to this whole dilemma would be to change
"tennants" until you found one that liked it very hot (put them upstairs)
and one that liked it kinda cool (put them downstairs). And you'll notice I
did NOT advise Paul to call a realtor for this, since a realtor would be
considered a professional in this area.
> > Unless you implement intelligent changes,
>
> Yep. "SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP OR YOU WILL BLOW UP!!!", huh?
>
Again, sorry:
Paul: "SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP OR YOU WILL BLOW UP!!!"
> > the upstairs will ALWAYS be warmer (usually much warmer) than the
> > downstairs.
>
> If UT acts to restrict airflow by partially closing registers,
> he will still get airflow through them, but the total supply of
> warm air will favor the path of least resistance, going to the
> first floor. Basic physics and common sense there, sorry I'm
> not a licensed perfessional, but that's how things work.
Hey Tom, how much air can YOU shove through a 6" pipe?
You're making an assumption that the duct system downstairs will handle the
increased volume of air. If it's even close to properly sized then my bet is
it won't. I'm not saying that closing a couple of vents 25 - 50% will cause
a problem, but in order to make any sort of a difference, the upstairs
"tennant" will have to close most/all of them all the way. Do this and you
significantly increase static pressure and significantly reduce airflow
through the heat exchanger. Doing this WILL elevate furnace temperature,
screwing up the temperature rise and invariably causing premature failure.
But so what ... since he saved the cost of having a professional come out
and rip him off, he can easily afford to replace his furnace every couple of
years.
>
> TP
Bill
<t...@icubed.com> wrote:
> Geez, another HVAC wizard lacking in reaing comprehension skills.
> I'll take my chance is any court in the land and tell them that
> I set the thermostat to 70-74 degrees and restricted access to it.
Tom your half-assed shit may be legal but it's still fucked up and you know it.
Cheap bastards like you get on my nerves.
Now we know why you're hanging out here.
--
Noon-Air
multi family dwelling is required to have *operational*, independant heating
and cooling system and/or controls for each "apartment" whether its seperate
systems or zones.
As I remember, the text has wording like "shall", and "required"..... It
didn't leave a lot of room for argument. I would bet that if this landlord
did some homework, he would probably find the same and could get it
corrected *before* the tenents figured it out and decided to hire their own
lawyer.
"Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote in message
news:ldmdnX-UAuV...@comcast.com...
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote ...
>> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>> > You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
>> You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
>> can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
>> air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
>> I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
>> disabled, but that's fine.
> Jeez, and for years I've been installing multiple systems in two &
> three story homes. I could have better served my customers (and not
> ripped them off) by installing one system, a lockbox, and tweaking
> some registers!! But that's what they get for calling a
> professional!!
You're ignoring a vital element of that picture: those homes owned
and occupied by one family with no hostile or moronic behavior by
one faction against another. aka: DT vs UT. Find an analogy that
makes sense, and we'll talk.
>> > There will be no
>> > "constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
>> > system is on, not as needed.
>> No kidding.
>> I think I covered that part too, but here we go again:
>> "constant supply" being defined in this case as "downstairs
>> tennant no longer changing the target temperature 6 times
>> a day". If upstairs tennant tweaks his registers to handle
>> the times when DT is trying to run the place up to 80 degrees,
>> he's going to be cold when DT returns to sanity.
>> Likewise, if UT adjusts the openings to handle a "normal"
>> setting from DT, he will still get airflow for too long of a
>> period when DT is pushing for 80 degrees.
>>
> Tom, Tom, Tom ...
> The upstairs "tennant" is going to get airflow ONLY when the
> downstairs "tennant" calls for heat. However, that's not as bad as the
> fact that the upstairs "tennant" will get airflow EVERY TIME the
> downstairs "tennant" calls for heat, whether or not he needs it.
Which is exactly the way it is now, right?
> Plus, how do you know when the downstairs "tennant" is comfortable?
> I've been doing this for 20 years, and I've run across plenty of
> people who keep temperatures VERY high in the winter and VERY low in
> the summer.
If they're paying for that situation 100%, that's all well and
good, God bless America! But this is a situation (one furnace
and two rental units) where the heating cost is obviouly shared
by another party, be it the other tennant or the landlord. DT's
right to absolute comfort ends when they stick their hand in my
wallet.
If DT os not "comfortable" at 70-72 degrees, they have two
solutions: Seek medical help and/or find a new place to live.
> Of course the obvious solution to this whole dilemma would be to
> change "tennants" until you found one that liked it very hot (put them
> upstairs) and one that liked it kinda cool (put them downstairs). And
> you'll notice I did NOT advise Paul to call a realtor for this, since
> a realtor would be considered a professional in this area.
Or maybe set the thermostat to a realistic, legal, comfortable
level. Lock it. Have the selfish moron on the first floor learn
that the world doesn't revolve around them? I'll try that
route, thank you.
>> > the upstairs will ALWAYS be warmer (usually much warmer) than the
>> > downstairs.
>> If UT acts to restrict airflow by partially closing registers,
>> he will still get airflow through them, but the total supply of
>> warm air will favor the path of least resistance, going to the
>> first floor. Basic physics and common sense there, sorry I'm
>> not a licensed perfessional, but that's how things work.
> Hey Tom, how much air can YOU shove through a 6" pipe?
> You're making an assumption that the duct system downstairs will
> handle the increased volume of air. If it's even close to properly
> sized then my bet is it won't. I'm not saying that closing a couple of
> vents 25 - 50% will cause a problem, but in order to make any sort of
> a difference, the upstairs "tennant" will have to close most/all of
> them all the way.
Sorry, I don't buy that at all. This isn't a problem of poorly
designed air flow. UT is having problems because DT is running
the furnace too damned -long- whenver the whim strikes them. It
sounds like UT would do just fine if that part of the equation
were removed and they could do the 25% - 50% thing as needed.
This is a -behavioral- problem with DT. Please stop trying to
make it into a mechanical problem that requires an entire new
$y$tem for the landlord.
TP
Tom Pendergast
> Tom Pendergast <t...@icubed.com> wrote:
>> Geez, another HVAC wizard lacking in reaing comprehension skills.
>> I'll take my chance is any court in the land and tell them that
>> I set the thermostat to 70-74 degrees and restricted access to it.
> Tom your half-assed shit may be legal
Yep. That's what matters.
> but it's still fucked up and you know it.
No, not at all.
> Cheap bastards like you get on my nerves.
Why? Because I advise someone that his problem is the behavior
of his downstairs tennant?, and that having a profe$$ional install
him a whole new $y$tem isn't the only way to solve it?
> Now we know why you're hanging out here.
Happy To Help. Have a nice day.
TP
Tom Pendergast
> I seem to remember reading a law, code or regulation somewhere that
> every multi family dwelling is required to have *operational*,
> independant heating and cooling system and/or controls for each
> "apartment" whether its seperate systems or zones.
> As I remember, the text has wording like "shall", and "required".....
> It didn't leave a lot of room for argument. I would bet that if this
> landlord did some homework, he would probably find the same and could
> get it corrected *before* the tenents figured it out and decided to
> hire their own lawyer.
I wouldn't doubt that law exists in some places, but we
all know that can change as soon as you drive a block down the
street and enter a different municipality.
Agian, the urge to browbeat the original poster into going out
and buying a new system tomorrow. Can't sell 'em? - scare 'em.
CBHvac
Tom, in most areas, not only isnt that code, but it will land the landlord
in a heap o trouble..
One key to that is in our code, that states:
Ventilation air shall not be recirculated from one dwelling to another or to
dissimilar occupancies.
and the Requirement Code book states:
Smoke Detectors Required--At least one approved listed smoke detector tested
in accordance with UL-167, capable of detecting visible, and invisible
particles of combustion shall be installed as follows:
a- snipped
b-snipped c-, 1, 2 snipped
c-3: In the return air portion of every air conditioning and mechanical
ventilation system that serves more than one floor.
AHH...bet he hasnt got that either..
But then...his codes might be different, and that is where you seem to be
making a huge level in the way we all do business, or have to do business.
Noon might have to do this or that, while we might have to do that, this,
this AND that...
There is more to knowing about this stuff than just how to wire a
unit...thats another reason we all spend several hundred dollars a year on
code books...AKA, The LAW in our area.
As for blowing things up...no...probably not in this case, but it is
painfully obvious that you have never dealt with a rental unit...last night
for example, my electrican called me up, and asked to go to Winston Salem
with him. We got there, and there was the handyman for the 50 or so units
scattered around town that the people owned...he was really pissy when we
got there, and kept saying it was a furnace problem...(it wasnt.) Brand new
Goodman, old unit just laying off to the side...70amp Zinsco kept
tripping..replaced the blower stack relay under warranty, since 99% of them
are bad, and COULD be creating an issue..and thats why I keep about 5 on the
van..and while I was checking that, Ray found another subpanel that the
renters said they had put a breaker in and it was still making noise...
Ray opened it up and it looked like the 4th of July in the panel. He did
what he had to do....LEGALLY...he shut the power to the home off, and
contacted the owner and explained that the power was off, and was being
locked out, till she either allowed him to repair it, or get someone out
there to repair it..he didnt care how, or what direction she went in..
The renters, thinking they knew the law, got real angry and said we (he)
could not do that, and that we needed to get the hell out now...and they
would fix it...etc...and then Ray did the other thing he can, should and did
do legally...he called the City, and got an inspector out there at 11:30pm,
and locked the home down.
Now...we were there for 4 hours total, searching, and such, and by this
time, the owner came out...brought another electrician with her, and he said
the SAME thing...and wanted $3500 to replace the box RIGHT now. She asked
Ray what he would charge, and he laughed and said..for about $100 in
breakers and a $15 100 amp box?? Labor and all it wasnt over
$700....now..this is MIDNIGHT on a Saturday...find another guy that will do
that...and since the power didnt have to be completely shut down, and it was
an emergency, no permits have to be pulled till Monday, and its running fine
now..
The renters, were going to do nothing but put new breakers in...the breakers
in there were toast, and it would not have helped a thing..the buss bars
were TOAST, pitted all to hell and back...now..the moral of that is simple..
Renters are normally NOT caring about anyone involved but themselves,
period.
The landlord cares normally about nothing but the rent.
BTW, when we went over to collect a check, we drove about 5 miles, over to
the snoty section, and the home they landlord lived in must have been 2 city
blocks long...I looked it up on the county tax page this morning, and its
only valued at 1.2 million.....think about that...bitching over under $1000
in repairs..went nuts over the $3500 quote...didnt want to part with dollar
one....and living in a 1.2 million dollar home, and they only own about 50
rental units...all in shabbytown..
And it was obvious that they used whoever they could to do the work on the
units...no HVAC guy worth a damn leaves the old unit laying in the
crawlspace...no matter how nasty the unit, or rental is...you get it out of
there..you leave the area as clean, or cleaner than it was when you got
there..
Now...you have a guy that comes in here, asks a legit question, gets legit
answers, and you have to try to create a problem that didnt exist till you
pop in with the blow things up comment.
Well...got news for you, it happens...in EVERY trade. It is better to err on
the side of caution, than to ignore the potential for a problem, and allow
it to happen.
Keep that in mind if you ever have a problem that is a liability for the
company that you end up calling out, and they red tag whatever they are
called to work on for you. Chances are, they are legally in the right, and
then, YOU have no alternative but to get it fixed....correctly.
If more and more guys did this, either the trade would be more respected,
or, there would be alot more homeowners dying a year...since they would try
to fix it themselves...and one last time...
If you CAN fix it, and KNOW what the fuck you are doing, by all means...have
at it...
If you THINK you can fix it, and THINK you know where that wire goes...stop
and think about it...
IF you have no damn clue what you are doing, and think that the inducer
switch really ought to be wired to the primary side of the
transformer.......your gonna die....so stop and call a pro.
Not flaming....and there are times you add some good info...but for the most
part, you are really riding that blow up pony a bit hard..
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93016CF0866...@130.133.1.4...
Tom Pendergast
> Geeze...another homeowner that got a law degree via Sally Struthers...
>
> Tom, in most areas, not only isnt that code, but it will land the
> landlord in a heap o trouble..
Stop right there. I challenge the "most areas" statement,
immediately. I have no idea what state or muni's you work in,
but this part of my state doesn't require that in the -vast-
majority of muni's. I know because I read it in the "Apartment
for Rent" ads every week, where the heating/AC is called out as
being shared by the tennants or included in the rent. Are all
of these landlords operating outside of zoning and occupancy
laws? I really don't think so.
And yes, I fully understand the nightmares that can be part of
a multi-unit building, but this is a guy with an up/down duplex,
no more, no less. I would stick my neck out just a bit and
bet a nickel that it wasn't built as a duplex, but rather it's
a converted "big old house", aka: common ductwork, no way in
hell to seperate the HVAC without -major- work to get separate
ducting to the 2nd floor.
Again, I'm fully willing to agree that there are horror stories
out there from multi-unit apartment buildings that need to be
told on occasion, but sorry I've got to stick to my guns: This
particular landlord needs a first floor tennant that "knows how
to act", period.
TP
Scott McDaniel
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
> > "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote ...
> >> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
> >> > You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
>
> >> You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
> >> can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
> >> air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
> >> I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
> >> disabled, but that's fine.
>
> > Jeez, and for years I've been installing multiple systems in two &
> > three story homes. I could have better served my customers (and not
> > ripped them off) by installing one system, a lockbox, and tweaking
> > some registers!! But that's what they get for calling a
> > professional!!
>
> You're ignoring a vital element of that picture: those homes owned
> and occupied by one family with no hostile or moronic behavior by
> one faction against another. aka: DT vs UT. Find an analogy that
> makes sense, and we'll talk.
>
This analogy makes perfect sense. You cannot control two separate zones with
one thermostat by mandating a setpoint and closing off some registers. It
just won't work. The behavior of the downstairs tenant is not hostile or
moronic; it's normal, and you would know this had you spent ANY time in the
heating and cooling profession.
>
> >> > There will be no
> >> > "constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
> >> > system is on, not as needed.
>
> >> No kidding.
> >> I think I covered that part too, but here we go again:
> >> "constant supply" being defined in this case as "downstairs
> >> tennant no longer changing the target temperature 6 times
> >> a day". If upstairs tennant tweaks his registers to handle
> >> the times when DT is trying to run the place up to 80 degrees,
> >> he's going to be cold when DT returns to sanity.
> >> Likewise, if UT adjusts the openings to handle a "normal"
> >> setting from DT, he will still get airflow for too long of a
> >> period when DT is pushing for 80 degrees.
> >>
>
> > Tom, Tom, Tom ...
> > The upstairs "tennant" is going to get airflow ONLY when the
> > downstairs "tennant" calls for heat. However, that's not as bad as the
> > fact that the upstairs "tennant" will get airflow EVERY TIME the
> > downstairs "tennant" calls for heat, whether or not he needs it.
>
> Which is exactly the way it is now, right?
Well .... . yes. I thought that's what we were talking about. The OP was
looking for a solution that would correct this. Yours certainly won't. Mine
certainly will.
>
> > Plus, how do you know when the downstairs "tennant" is comfortable?
> > I've been doing this for 20 years, and I've run across plenty of
> > people who keep temperatures VERY high in the winter and VERY low in
> > the summer.
>
> If they're paying for that situation 100%, that's all well and
> good, God bless America! But this is a situation (one furnace
> and two rental units) where the heating cost is obviouly shared
> by another party, be it the other tennant or the landlord. DT's
> right to absolute comfort ends when they stick their hand in my
> wallet.
This makes absolutely no difference in regards to this problem. If the
landlord doesn't want to spend the cash to provide separate utilities to the
tenants, then that's his problem, not the tenants.
The landlord is responsible for providing his tenants with a safe, properly
working heating system. He cannot dictate temperature settings any more than
he could tell you to turn out your bedroom light at night, or that you can't
cook pot roast because it takes too long, or that you've can only watch 1
hour of television a day.
It's the LANDLORD's responsibility to fix the thing right, not cobble some
bullshit solution together based on idiotic "recommendations".
>
> If DT os not "comfortable" at 70-72 degrees, they have two
> solutions: Seek medical help and/or find a new place to live.
>
Or the third (and obvious) solution: get the thing fixed RIGHT.
I know plenty of people who aren't comfortable at those temperatures. MOST
elderly people aren't, and damn few women. You gonna throw out Grandma
'cause she's not comfortable at 70 degrees?
I don't care whether your "buy it" or not, it's the truth. Your lack of
knowledge about rudimentary heating and cooling principles is becoming
painfully obvious. While the airflow NOW may be fine, if Paul implements
your "solution" it WILL (a) increase static pressure and (b) reduce airflow
across the heat exchanger. Contact ANY furnace manufacturer and they'll tell
you that the number ONE cause of heat exchanger failure is a lack of airflow
across the heat exchanger. Not only that, it will almost certainly increase
fuel consumption (your burner on/off cycle will be affected by the air
starvation, causing an significant increase in run times) and lead to
premature failure of costly components.
And, once again, YOUR SOLUTION WON'T WORK. Why is that so hard for you to
believe?
>
> This is a -behavioral- problem with DT. Please stop trying to
> make it into a mechanical problem that requires an entire new
> $y$tem for the landlord.
You idiot. This IS a mechanical problem. The system is improperly installed,
isn't properly controlled and is almost certainly in violation of any number
of codes. Furthermore, both tenants should be able to run their system to
whatever temperature desired WITHOUT intervention of the landlord. With a
properly functioning zone system (or a properly installed second system),
they'd be able to do this.
>
>
> TP
CBHvac
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
> > "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote ...
> >> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
> >> > You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
>
> >> You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
> >> can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
> >> air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
> >> I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
> >> disabled, but that's fine.
And you miss the point entirely here...
We get yours...you fail to understand the difference in correct, and hacked.
>
> > Jeez, and for years I've been installing multiple systems in two &
> > three story homes. I could have better served my customers (and not
> > ripped them off) by installing one system, a lockbox, and tweaking
> > some registers!! But that's what they get for calling a
> > professional!!
>
> You're ignoring a vital element of that picture: those homes owned
> and occupied by one family with no hostile or moronic behavior by
> one faction against another. aka: DT vs UT. Find an analogy that
> makes sense, and we'll talk.
The OP says...TWO APARTMENTS....now...what is so hard about understanding
that?
AT what point did he say the upper tenant, and lower tenant were related?
I didnt see it...lets see..
They are both heated by the same Lennox Pulse propane furnace.
There is a thermostat located in each suite. When the downstairs
tenant leaves the house for the day they often leave the heat turned
up after cranking it in the morning to take the chill off. The
downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked up all
night in case the child kicks off his blankets in the middle of the
night.
Unfortunately for the upstairs tenants they are roasting and have no
control with their thermostat to turn the heat down.
NOPE...dont see it...
>
>
>
> >> > There will be no
> >> > "constant supply"; the upstairs tenant will have heat only when the
> >> > system is on, not as needed.
>
> >> No kidding.
> >> I think I covered that part too, but here we go again:
> >> "constant supply" being defined in this case as "downstairs
> >> tennant no longer changing the target temperature 6 times
> >> a day". If upstairs tennant tweaks his registers to handle
> >> the times when DT is trying to run the place up to 80 degrees,
> >> he's going to be cold when DT returns to sanity.
> >> Likewise, if UT adjusts the openings to handle a "normal"
> >> setting from DT, he will still get airflow for too long of a
> >> period when DT is pushing for 80 degrees.
> >>
>
> > Tom, Tom, Tom ...
> > The upstairs "tennant" is going to get airflow ONLY when the
> > downstairs "tennant" calls for heat. However, that's not as bad as the
> > fact that the upstairs "tennant" will get airflow EVERY TIME the
> > downstairs "tennant" calls for heat, whether or not he needs it.
>
> Which is exactly the way it is now, right?
And have you forgotten already the inital problem?
>
> > Plus, how do you know when the downstairs "tennant" is comfortable?
> > I've been doing this for 20 years, and I've run across plenty of
> > people who keep temperatures VERY high in the winter and VERY low in
> > the summer.
>
> If they're paying for that situation 100%, that's all well and
> good, God bless America! But this is a situation (one furnace
> and two rental units) where the heating cost is obviouly shared
> by another party, be it the other tennant or the landlord. DT's
> right to absolute comfort ends when they stick their hand in my
> wallet.
Ah...thank you SOOOOO much for verification of my other post where I said in
essence...landlords could give a damn less..
>
> If DT os not "comfortable" at 70-72 degrees, they have two
> solutions: Seek medical help and/or find a new place to live.
Or sue the landlord for failing to provide a comfortable living enviroment
in cooler months...
>
>
>
> > Of course the obvious solution to this whole dilemma would be to
> > change "tennants" until you found one that liked it very hot (put them
> > upstairs) and one that liked it kinda cool (put them downstairs). And
> > you'll notice I did NOT advise Paul to call a realtor for this, since
> > a realtor would be considered a professional in this area.
>
> Or maybe set the thermostat to a realistic, legal, comfortable
> level. Lock it. Have the selfish moron on the first floor learn
> that the world doesn't revolve around them? I'll try that
> route, thank you.
>
Heh...in some states, that could be called profiling..or,
discrimination....CA for one...:)
>
>
> >> > the upstairs will ALWAYS be warmer (usually much warmer) than the
> >> > downstairs.
>
> >> If UT acts to restrict airflow by partially closing registers,
> >> he will still get airflow through them, but the total supply of
> >> warm air will favor the path of least resistance, going to the
> >> first floor. Basic physics and common sense there, sorry I'm
> >> not a licensed perfessional, but that's how things work.
>
> > Hey Tom, how much air can YOU shove through a 6" pipe?
>
> > You're making an assumption that the duct system downstairs will
> > handle the increased volume of air. If it's even close to properly
> > sized then my bet is it won't. I'm not saying that closing a couple of
> > vents 25 - 50% will cause a problem, but in order to make any sort of
> > a difference, the upstairs "tennant" will have to close most/all of
> > them all the way.
>
> Sorry, I don't buy that at all. This isn't a problem of poorly
> designed air flow. UT is having problems because DT is running
> the furnace too damned -long- whenver the whim strikes them. It
> sounds like UT would do just fine if that part of the equation
> were removed and they could do the 25% - 50% thing as needed.
>
> This is a -behavioral- problem with DT. Please stop trying to
> make it into a mechanical problem that requires an entire new
> $y$tem for the landlord.
>
Now you are a Dr....behavioral problem?? Jesus H Christ...I like my heat on
65F....my wife from the deserts of CA would love it if I kept it at 80F..I
love cold...she hates it....in the summer I like my AC on you guessed
it...in the 60's...she loves it around 78...
Oh well...guess we are fucking crazy.
As far as costing the landlord....IF his code requires, as most do, separate
systems for rental property, when of the FA type...then thats called tough
shit.
>
> TP
CBHvac
well..LOL
More below.
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns930181BCEDB...@130.133.1.4...
> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
>
> > Geeze...another homeowner that got a law degree via Sally Struthers...
> >
> > Tom, in most areas, not only isnt that code, but it will land the
> > landlord in a heap o trouble..
>
> Stop right there. I challenge the "most areas" statement,
> immediately.
Ok...cool...but you know what? We dont have a damn clue what state the OP is
in either...therefore, one must make replies, and postings in regards to his
question, and any related issues that may come up, based upon OUR experence,
and what is law here. If nothing else, he now knows to go and find out.
If it is determined that he is operating outside the legal capacities of
code, then, yes...its gonna cost to fix it...
Life aint cheap..
> I have no idea what state or muni's you work in,
> but this part of my state doesn't require that in the -vast-
> majority of muni's. I know because I read it in the "Apartment
> for Rent" ads every week, where the heating/AC is called out as
> being shared by the tennants or included in the rent. Are all
> of these landlords operating outside of zoning and occupancy
> laws? I really don't think so.
>
Ok..hold on...:)
We have that here too...and say you have a duplex...say the power is
included in the rent...
Lets say you are home 8 hours a day, use minimal electric, and your neighbor
has 4 kids, washes tons of loads in hot water, and runs the AC on 60 24-7...
Guess who is paying for power they didnt use?
Or, another thing they do here, when you have an aparment complex for
example, the power company can average out the buildings usage...and split
that 8 or 4, or however many ways...
It has nothing to do with how the ducting is run, or who shares what.
If you had a highrise, with a boiler for heat, then each level would be
zoned anyway....so that point is invalid in this example.
> And yes, I fully understand the nightmares that can be part of
> a multi-unit building, but this is a guy with an up/down duplex,
> no more, no less. I would stick my neck out just a bit and
> bet a nickel that it wasn't built as a duplex, but rather it's
> a converted "big old house", aka: common ductwork, no way in
> hell to seperate the HVAC without -major- work to get separate
> ducting to the 2nd floor.
I do indeed agree, and that is what I had pictured in my head...he probably
bought an old home...said..wow...lookie here...we can rent this puppy out as
TWO units...and did.
The stat being on the lower level kind of supports that theory, as that is
how 99% of the two story single unit homes are here as well...mine,
included.
>
> Again, I'm fully willing to agree that there are horror stories
> out there from multi-unit apartment buildings that need to be
> told on occasion, but sorry I've got to stick to my guns: This
> particular landlord needs a first floor tennant that "knows how
> to act", period.
Possible, IF, and ONLY if his area allows it. HE COULD be outside the law,
and at THIS point, no one knows.
Therefore, your point, while valid, is as valid as someone telling him that
he needs to get another unit installed, and be done with it.
And actually, from a landlords point of view, (trying to get in mode
here..lol) it would actually NOT be an expense, as if he is having a pretty
good turnover in the place (maybe not yet, but it might be coming) due to
that, he could maintain a tenant by making life a tad bit better for them.
With seperate systems, he could even raise the rent a tad...provided hes not
raping them now...he might not be. HE might be a great fella, and thats why
he was asking...he also might be in a ton of trouble now, and not telling
the full story. Great, or bad thing about Usenet is just that..we go on what
we see....and unless we know the person, thats all we know...and all replies
are based upon that, and I know you know that, but just pointing out that it
can be both ways, and still be correct.
>
>
> TP
Tom Pendergast
> This analogy makes perfect sense. You cannot control two separate
> zones with one thermostat by mandating a setpoint and closing off some
> registers. It just won't work. The behavior of the downstairs tenant
> is not hostile or moronic; it's normal, and you would know this had
> you spent ANY time in the heating and cooling profession.
From the original post:
"When the downstairs tenant leaves the house for the day they often
leave the heat turned up after cranking it in the morning to take the
chill off"
Do we need to discuss the idiotic notion of "cranking it" as a
means of raising the temperature any FASTER than bumping it up
a couple of degrees??? Or do you just humor your moronic
customers who believe that is a logical way of thinking?
"The downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked
up all night in case the child kicks off his blankets in the middle
of the night."
Translation: "My neighor be damned. The world revolves around
ME, and I don't care who is paying for it or how it affects
others." OK, so maybe "hostile" isn't the best choice of words,
how about "Inconsiderate, selfish, irresponsible jerk"? does
that work for you?
TP
Tom Pendergast
OK, read through your reply, I can agree to 99% of what you said,
but I feel the need to comment on this one thing...
> ...and say you have a duplex...say the power is included in the
> rent...Lets say you are home 8 hours a day, use minimal electric,
> and your neighbor has 4 kids, washes tons of loads in hot water, and
> runs the AC on 60 24-7... Guess who is paying for power they didnt
> use?
Me, the idiot! LOL Seriously, if somebody is stupid enough
to sign a lease under those conditions, knowing beforehand that
the other tennant csn use window AC units on their nickel, then
that somebody is paying for their own lack of brain power.
TP
TURTLE
This is Turtle.
Spoken like a true Slumlord. Your good.
TURTLE
TURTLE
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
> > Put in two systems OR zone the damn thing. Find someone who has dealt
> > with this before, not the local handyman guy who painted the whole
> > place last year for $50 and 2 cases of Bud Tallboys ... sorry about
> > that, I've been dealing with an evil landlord this past week and
> > needed to vent <grin>.
>
> Geez, you forgit to tell him "DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU MIGHT BLOW
> SOMETHING UP!!!"
>
> > BTW, the other suggested solution is no solution at all.
>
> Horse manure.
>
> > You can't regulate temperature by tweaking the registers.
>
> You can regulate by having less than maximum openings. You
> can't make it any warmer, but you can lower the amount of hot
> air coming through them by closing them down some. Apparently
> I need to spell this out in great detail for the learning
> disabled, but that's fine.
This is Turtle.
Tom your over your head here. here is the list of problem that your speaking
on and don't know about how it can be done at all.
1) Your saing here that by tweaking the registers you can get two
different temperature setting for the up stairs and down stairs. When i was
a kid working in my father business I learned this is not possible at all
with two thermostats and two different temperature settings. If you still
say you can do this. Please post or get with the ARI and write a research
artical for them to send out to us and study. Until then please think before
you speak.
2) Scott was suggesting to ZONE it or put two different system in to
regulate the temperature correctly. You could not understand what ZONE it
meant and just respond to it without any knownledge about what he as
speaking of. Your responce was that of one that you was over your head in
not know what to say and used the old "let me correct scott and get away
from answering the question". Until you can read up on zone systems please
find out how it will work before you speak on the subject without any
knownledge of how zoning works.
3) You spoke on spelling it out to people like Scott with learning
impairment on zoning when you don't have any ideal of how zoning works or
how it is designed. When you refer to a HVAC contractor as learning impaired
in the designing of systems and you have no ideal of how to design a system.
I hate to say this but it seem there is some learning impairment in your
ability to speak on zoning a system. Please understand the subject before
speaking on the problem.
4) Tom they have some good books on Zoning of hvac systems at the local
library and you could understand what we are talking about before you try to
speak on the subject that you have no ideal of what we are speaking about.
5) If you would like post back here and ask one of us to explain zoning
for we would be happy to explain it for you because this is our business
like to talk about it.
6) I know what i have just told you here is a little over your head but
try to understand it and try not to lash out in a unknowing manner by tell
that we don't know what we are talking about. Please think before you speak.
TURTLE
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
Turtle - a simple 'Tom, shut the fuck up' would have sufficed,
but I enjoyed your post anyway :-)
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
Scott McDaniel
> "Scott McDaniel" <scott@NO___Spam--thedatabaseplace.net> wrote:
>
> > This analogy makes perfect sense. You cannot control two separate
> > zones with one thermostat by mandating a setpoint and closing off some
> > registers. It just won't work. The behavior of the downstairs tenant
> > is not hostile or moronic; it's normal, and you would know this had
> > you spent ANY time in the heating and cooling profession.
>
> From the original post:
>
> "When the downstairs tenant leaves the house for the day they often
> leave the heat turned up after cranking it in the morning to take the
> chill off"
>
> Do we need to discuss the idiotic notion of "cranking it" as a
> means of raising the temperature any FASTER than bumping it up
> a couple of degrees??? Or do you just humor your moronic
> customers who believe that is a logical way of thinking?
I'm just gonna cut and paste to save time:
The behavior of the downstairs tenant is not hostile or moronic; it's
normal, and you would know this had you spent ANY time in the heating and
cooling profession.
Nowhere did the OP introduce this notion of "cranking it" to make the system
heat faster; this is another of your assumptions. And I don't humor my
customers into anything. I install systems which are properly selected,
sized and controlled. If they want to "crank it up", then they can.
>
> "The downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked
> up all night in case the child kicks off his blankets in the middle
> of the night."
>
> Translation: "My neighor be damned. The world revolves around
> ME, and I don't care who is paying for it or how it affects
> others." OK, so maybe "hostile" isn't the best choice of words,
> how about "Inconsiderate, selfish, irresponsible jerk"? does
> that work for you?
Ultimately, this has nothing to do with the tenants or their attitudes. You
seem to be going back to this argument because you believe it supports your
proposal. What this ultimately boils down to properly installing and
controlling the environmental systems in Paul's rental property. He can try
your suggestion, but it ain't gonna work. If the downstairs tenant wants to
maintain his living space at 80 degrees, he should have the ability to do
so. Same with the upstairs tenant. Unfortunately, with the butchered
solution you propose this wouldn't be possible.
Oh, and one more thing:
"SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP OR YOU'LL BLOW UP!!!"
>
>
> TP
TURTLE
> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
>
> > Geeze...another homeowner that got a law degree via Sally Struthers...
> >
> > Tom, in most areas, not only isnt that code, but it will land the
> > landlord in a heap o trouble..
>
> Stop right there. I challenge the "most areas" statement,
> immediately. I have no idea what state or muni's you work in,
> but this part of my state doesn't require that in the -vast-
> majority of muni's. I know because I read it in the "Apartment
> for Rent" ads every week, where the heating/AC is called out as
> being shared by the tennants or included in the rent. Are all
> of these landlords operating outside of zoning and occupancy
> laws? I really don't think so.
>
This is Turtle.
Tom , You must have missed the "Renters Act of 1994" federal Government back
in 1994 when they passed a "federal Law" saying that if a LandLord does not
provide proper heating to all renters in the building. The Land lord can be
fined $25,000.00 a day and / or 5 years in the Federal pen for not providing
proper heat to renters. The last time i check on any law business the
Federal Laws over rides any state or local laws. Now Tom if you don't live
in the United State and live in another country besides the U.S. , forgive
me for speaking too soon.
Now here comes your problem here. If the bottom renter leaves his heat wide
open and leaves and makes the top renter temperature go to about 85 to 90
degrees and the top renter with any kind of health problem , calls for
health care in anyway. You as the land Lord need to call two people for
help. first call your lawyer and then call your General liability company to
inform them of a pending case to start. Also tell your lawyer to read up on
the federal Law called The Renter act of 1994.
Now Tom we are all waiting to hear you explain the Renter act of 1994 to us.
I have not read it completely and do look forward to hearing the meaning of
it.
TURTLE
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote...
>> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Geeze...another homeowner that got a law degree via Sally
>> > Struthers...
>> > Tom, in most areas, not only isnt that code, but it will land the
>> > landlord in a heap o trouble..
>> Stop right there. I challenge the "most areas" statement,
>> immediately. I have no idea what state or muni's you work in,
>> but this part of my state doesn't require that in the -vast-
>> majority of muni's. I know because I read it in the "Apartment
>> for Rent" ads every week, where the heating/AC is called out as
>> being shared by the tennants or included in the rent. Are all
>> of these landlords operating outside of zoning and occupancy
>> laws? I really don't think so.
> This is Turtle.
>
> Tom , You must have missed the "Renters Act of 1994" federal
> Government back in 1994 when they passed a "federal Law" saying that
> if a LandLord does not provide proper heating to all renters in the...
[snip by TP ]
> Now Tom we are all waiting to hear you explain the Renter act of 1994
> to us. I have not read it completely and do look forward to hearing
> the meaning of it.
As soon as you define "proper heating". I'll set the thermostat at
72 for heat in the winter, 76 for AC in the summer, put a locking
cover on it, provide my tennants with a 24 hour number to call for
problems, and have them sign off on that setup as part of their
lease. Any more stupid questions, Turtle?
TP
TURTLE
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:9tk32vo0lgki627am...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:01:02 -0600, "TURTLE" <tur...@worldnetla.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
>
> Turtle - a simple 'Tom, shut the fuck up' would have sufficed,
> but I enjoyed your post anyway :-)
>
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
>
> Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
>
> My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
> featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
This is Turtle.
I just could not stand it. I had to leed a Jack Ass to water , but slowly.
TURTLE
BGBevill
Well Tom, I see you have plenty of time on your hands. Oh well, I guess
several of us do because this has been beat to death. Anyway, I have one
question for you. If your idea will work so well (it won't, but humoring you),
why can't a homeowner with a two level home do as you say and regulate the temp
in their home? Do a search and see how many posts there have been on this over
the last several years. I think you will find that just about everything, even
your idea, has already been tried and it just plain don't work. To control two
separate areas you need two separate stats period. Notice I didn't say two
separate units, but two separate stats as Scott and Turtle have already
mentioned.
Bobby
Tom Pendergast
> Well Tom, I see you have plenty of time on your hands. Oh well, I
> guess several of us do because this has been beat to death. Anyway,
> I have one question for you. If your idea will work so well (it
> won't, but humoring you)
[ snip by TP ]
> To control two separate areas you need two separate stats period.
> Notice I didn't say two separate units, but two separate stats as
> Scott and Turtle have already mentioned.
OK, I'll play along with the "humor me" thing. Have your two stats,
one in each unit, each capable of calling for heat when temp drops
below certain level, but neither can "cancel out" the other if the
other is in closed position. My electronics background tells me
these are wired in parallel, closing either set of contacts via
the stat will complete the circuit and call for heat.
If that's the case, I would like an additional box on the wall in
each unit. It will be sealed, have a temp sensor for 75 degrees
inside, and if ambient temp hits 75, the contacts inside this
sealed box will open up. They'll close up again when the temp
drops to 72 or so, or maybe after it goes below 75 and triggers
a 5-10 minute time delay.
I would like each of these boxes placed in series with the stat
for the other unit, please. End of the problem as presented
by original poster. You want to "crank it" and try and make the
place 90 degrees, my little overload sensor is going to disable
your stat for a short period of time, thank you very much.
TP
PS: If your response is "OK, you'll be hearing from my lawyer",
I'm all ready to claim that my setup is a safety device,
that I'm stopping you from causing problems by overheating
both of the units.
BGBevill
>
>> Well Tom, I see you have plenty of time on your hands. Oh well, I
>> guess several of us do because this has been beat to death. Anyway,
>> I have one question for you. If your idea will work so well (it
>> won't, but humoring you)
>
>[ snip by TP ]
>
>> To control two separate areas you need two separate stats period.
>> Notice I didn't say two separate units, but two separate stats as
>> Scott and Turtle have already mentioned.
>
> OK, I'll play along with the "humor me" thing. Have your two stats,
> one in each unit, each capable of calling for heat when temp drops
> below certain level, but neither can "cancel out" the other if the
> other is in closed position. My electronics background tells me
> these are wired in parallel, closing either set of contacts via
> the stat will complete the circuit and call for heat.
Oh Tom, then explain why most office building around town have numerous stats
on the walls and only a few units on the roof. If it was that hard to make it
work, I doubt we would be doing it on just about every office building we do.
Ever heard of zoning? Oh yeah I forgot, you already said that won't work.
>
> If that's the case, I would like an additional box on the wall in
> each unit. It will be sealed, have a temp sensor for 75 degrees
> inside, and if ambient temp hits 75, the contacts inside this
> sealed box will open up. They'll close up again when the temp
> drops to 72 or so, or maybe after it goes below 75 and triggers
> a 5-10 minute time delay.
>
> I would like each of these boxes placed in series with the stat
> for the other unit, please. End of the problem as presented
> by original poster. You want to "crank it" and try and make the
> place 90 degrees, my little overload sensor is going to disable
> your stat for a short period of time, thank you very much.
>
> TP
>
> PS: If your response is "OK, you'll be hearing from my lawyer",
> I'm all ready to claim that my setup is a safety device,
> that I'm stopping you from causing problems by overheating
> both of the units.
>
>
Why the hangup on lawyers? Oh BTW, I have several tstats in my home with just
two units and we keep each area within 0.5º F without any problems and I am not
an EE.....;-). As Scott said early on, zoning will solve the problem. Course
you can zone by adding another unit, but you don't always have to. Any of us
would have to actually be there and see the building to say anything more.
Bobby
Tom Pendergast
>>bgbe...@aol.comnojunk (BGBevill) wrote:
[ TP ]
>> OK, I'll play along with the "humor me" thing. Have your two
>> stats, one in each unit, each capable of calling for heat when temp
>> drops below certain level, but neither can "cancel out" the other
>> if the other is in closed position. My electronics background
>> tells me these are wired in parallel, closing either set of
>> contacts via the stat will complete the circuit and call for heat.
> Oh Tom, then explain why most office building around town have
> numerous stats on the walls and only a few units on the roof. If it
> was that hard to make it work, I doubt we would be doing it on just
> about every office building we do. Ever heard of zoning? Oh yeah I
> forgot, you already said that won't work.
Apples and oranges. You're talking office buildings where you
have discreet ductwork to different parts of the building.
Every ounce of common sense assumption would dictate that the
duplex/house mentioned by the original poster has common ducts
that serve both floors. If that wasn't the case, why would two
separate duct systems be fed from one furnace?.
>> If that's the case, I would like an additional box on the wall in
>> each unit. It will be sealed, have a temp sensor for 75 degrees
>> inside, and if ambient temp hits 75, the contacts inside this
>> sealed box will open up. They'll close up again when the temp
>> drops to 72 or so, or maybe after it goes below 75 and triggers
>> a 5-10 minute time delay.
>>
>> I would like each of these boxes placed in series with the stat
>> for the other unit, please. End of the problem as presented
>> by original poster. You want to "crank it" and try and make the
>> place 90 degrees, my little overload sensor is going to disable
>> your stat for a short period of time, thank you very much.
>> PS: If your response is "OK, you'll be hearing from my lawyer",
>> I'm all ready to claim that my setup is a safety device,
>> that I'm stopping you from causing problems by overheating
>> both of the units.
> Why the hangup on lawyers?
Not -my- hangup, just a couple of resident experts here who
decided to shut me up with sicking the gum'mint on me, turning
me in for not properly providing heat to my rental units. As
I've told them, I'll go before any judge in the land and tell
him the stat is set to 72, there are no dangerous or other
conditions that make any part of the unit colder than that, and
defy them to convict me of any kind of wrong doing. These laws
are to prosecute scumlords that let the furnace stay broken for
weeks at a time, or have an undersized system that can't possibly
keep the whole building warm.
> Oh BTW, I have several tstats in my home
> with just two units and we keep each area within 0.5º F without any
> problems and I am not an EE.....;-).
I have one unit and one stat in mine. The downstairs apartment
is probably 5 degrees colder than my unit upstairs. I've never
measured it, but you can feel the difference when going in
between the two. It's that way because I -like- mine cooler,
and I accomplish it by keeping all of my registers about half
closed, and I'm not an EE either, thank you. Oops, I forgot,
what I'm doing in impossible, I must be dreaming, never mind.
> As Scott said early on, zoning
> will solve the problem. Course you can zone by adding another unit,
> but you don't always have to. Any of us would have to actually be
> there and see the building to say anything more.
So, you're saying you can "zone" an old house converted into
a duplex without adding a second system of ductwork?
TP
TURTLE
This is Turtle.
awwwww , Asking you for your opinion on the Renters act of 1994 was referred
to as a stupid question! Yes , I'm sorry for asking a question like that of
you when you have no ideal of what it says at all. Please forgive me for i
did not think about you not knowing anything about renter laws and
regulations.
TURTLE
joeschmoe
BGBevill wrote:
> >bgbe...@aol.comnojunk (BGBevill) wrote:
> >
> >> Well Tom, I see you have plenty of time on your hands. Oh well, I
> >> guess several of us do because this has been beat to death. Anyway,
> >> I have one question for you. If your idea will work so well (it
> >> won't, but humoring you)
> >
> >[ snip by TP ]
> >
> >> To control two separate areas you need two separate stats period.
> >> Notice I didn't say two separate units, but two separate stats as
> >> Scott and Turtle have already mentioned.
> >
> > OK, I'll play along with the "humor me" thing. Have your two stats,
> > one in each unit, each capable of calling for heat when temp drops
> > below certain level, but neither can "cancel out" the other if the
> > other is in closed position. My electronics background tells me
> > these are wired in parallel, closing either set of contacts via
> > the stat will complete the circuit and call for heat.
>
> Oh Tom, then explain why most office building around town have numerous stats
> on the walls and only a few units on the roof. If it was that hard to make it
> work, I doubt we would be doing it on just about every office building we do.
> Ever heard of zoning? Oh yeah I forgot, you already said that won't work.
check the previus thread in this ng about dummy thermostats
Bill
<t...@icubed.com> wrote:
> > Tom your half-assed shit may be legal
>
> Yep. That's what matters.
>
> > but it's still fucked up and you know it.
>
> No, not at all.
>
> > Cheap bastards like you get on my nerves.
>
> Why? Because I advise someone that his problem is the behavior
> of his downstairs tennant?, and that having a profe$$ional install
> him a whole new $y$tem isn't the only way to solve it?
Downstairs tenant has a behavior problem because he won't accommodate the
upstairs tenant?
What's is sad, is that you believe what you wrote.
Spending money is never in your solution is it.
As long as you get yours eh Tommy?
--
moonlig...@pop.tcsn.qwest.net
Tom Pendergast wrote:
>
>
> As soon as you define "proper heating". I'll set the thermostat at
> 72 for heat in the winter, 76 for AC in the summer, put a locking
> cover on it, provide my tennants with a 24 hour number to call for
> problems, and have them sign off on that setup as part of their
> lease. Any more stupid questions, Turtle?
>
> TP
Tom I'm speaking as a former slumlord your locking stats don't work.
My eight apartments had individual HVAC but I paid all utilities, after
awhile the bills were killing me so I put in Accustats a fixed point
non-adjustable thermostat. It helped the first month but then the
bills went right back up. seems if you keep a small supply of Blue
Ice paks in your freezer and place one on top of the stat as required
my system was defeated. One tenant figured this out and soon all
were doing it. I didn't wait to see if they would use heat lamps in
summer, I just bit the bullet and had an electrician convert the place
to individual meters. When they had to start paying the power
themselves they all, out of the goodness of their own heart's became
environmentalists and stopped wasting finite resources.
Tom people want to take care of number one and DS is just people.
Dave (former landlord)
Vlad
other forms of providing the heat, the problem as been solved by
changing the system to electric base boards and individual meters.
Even if the price of electricity is higher , the total cost including
maintenance ( practically zero) may be lower, since each tennant pays
the amount she consumes.
Vlad
On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:04:56 -0600, "TURTLE" <tur...@worldnetla.net>
BGBevill
>> >
>> >> Well Tom, I see you have plenty of time on your hands. Oh well, I
>> >> guess several of us do because this has been beat to death. Anyway,
>> >> I have one question for you. If your idea will work so well (it
>> >> won't, but humoring you)
>> >
>> >[ snip by TP ]
>> >
>> >> To control two separate areas you need two separate stats period.
>> >> Notice I didn't say two separate units, but two separate stats as
>> >> Scott and Turtle have already mentioned.
>> >
>> > OK, I'll play along with the "humor me" thing. Have your two stats,
>> > one in each unit, each capable of calling for heat when temp drops
>> > below certain level, but neither can "cancel out" the other if the
>> > other is in closed position. My electronics background tells me
>> > these are wired in parallel, closing either set of contacts via
>> > the stat will complete the circuit and call for heat.
>>
>> Oh Tom, then explain why most office building around town have numerous
>stats
>> on the walls and only a few units on the roof. If it was that hard to make
>it
>> work, I doubt we would be doing it on just about every office building we
>do.
>> Ever heard of zoning? Oh yeah I forgot, you already said that won't work.
>
>check the previus thread in this ng about dummy thermostats
>
>
Yeah, I thought about that when I typed that, but they can't all be
dummies....lol.
pvg
Some interesting discussion going on here.
I'm the original poster and I must say that I did not expect this much
discussion.
A couple of things that I should clarify:
1. The 2 unit house that is the subject of this discussion is listed
as a legal up / down duplex. To the best of our knowledge and the
paperwork that we have to back it up, the house was inspected by the
proper authorities and approved as a legal up / down and we purchased
it as such and pay taxes accordingly.
2. The house in question is located in Canada where temperatures
through the winter months can plunge to -45C and may often hang around
the -20C mark.
3. The same company that installed this furnace 8 or 9 years ago
services it every fall for us. I have had discussions with them on a
couple of occasions regarding airflow and the regulation of the heat.
Unfortunately they have not come back to me with any options to
improve the situation. Hence my posting.
4. As pointed out both units do indeed share the same ductwork and as
you can probably deduce this means that the upstairs has registers
located on the floor while the downstairs has registers in the
ceiling.
5. My wife and I lived on the top floor of this house for the past 7
years until just recently when we had to move to another city so that
my wife could attend school. Our plan is eventually to move back into
the house and still rent out the downstairs suite.
Tom makes the point about the attitude of the downstairs renters. He
is right about that. We had several different renters living
downstairs over the years and on a couple of occasions we had some
serious problems with the heat being left cranked up. When I would go
downstairs to "politely" let them know we are being blasted out
upstairs the tenants would often answer the door wearing shorts and a
t-shirt or less on occasion and its -25C outside!
And a note about -25C weather is that often the windows are either
covered in plastic to help keep the heat in or are frozen shut.
However we are now an absentee landlord and being on a student budget
here we really appreciate the fact that we actually have tenants and
we want to make it work for everybody so that we still have a house to
go back to. The other part of this is being 1,500 miles away makes it
difficult to think about ousting a tenant and look for another one
because of a problem with the heat when I would rather fix the real
problem instead of creating another. Know what I mean??
I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
Here is kind of where I am at after reading through all the postings:
a)At this point in time I cannot afford to put in another furnace nor
do I think it is really feasible.
b)I would like to learn more about zoning options. Can anyone point me
in the right direction? Or did I miss something and this isn't really
an option either?
c)Could this be a balancing problem? I do have a friend who is a
professional air balancing type guy. Should I call him in?
d)Do I have any other options? I may have missed something in the
postings. If I did please let me know.
Again thanks for your comments and if there is more I'll read them...
Paul
Hvacmam
> In article <Xns93016CF0866...@130.133.1.4>, Tom Pendergast
> <t...@icubed.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Geez, another HVAC wizard lacking in reaing comprehension skills.
>> I'll take my chance is any court in the land and tell them that
>> I set the thermostat to 70-74 degrees and restricted access to it.
>>
>
> Tom your half-assed shit may be legal but it's still fucked up and you know it.
>
> Cheap bastards like you get on my nerves.
> Now we know why you're hanging out here.
You want to know why he hangs out here? Because he doesn't have a
life. That is freaking obvious.
Sort the newsgroup by sender -- look at the times and frequency of
his posts. Cripes! What kind of person just sits at the computer for
hours on end like that, posting in a group where he knows nothing about
the subject and contributes virtually nothing?
Vicki
Hvacmam
If the Accustats had been put in the return air of the units as a
limiting thermostat (i.e., return air temperature of greater than the
setpoint would shut off the heat) it could have worked. Unless the
tenants got inside the units themselves. You could always use security
screws.
Vicki
Tom Pendergast
> You want to know why he hangs out here? Because he doesn't have
> a life. That is freaking obvious.
>
> Sort the newsgroup by sender - look at the times and frequency
> of his posts. Cripes! What kind of person just sits at the
> computer for hours on end like that, posting in a group where he
> knows nothing about the subject and contributes virtually nothing?
Woooo!!! Can't argue the points, just go right for a personal
attack, huh? Sorry you think I just "sit here" for hours on end.
Gee, maybe I just "sit down here" several times a day while I'm
doing other things (hint, hint) and check e-mail and newsgroups,
but that would let the air out of your little spew, wouldn't it?
Speaking of "knowing nothing" you proved how little you know
about the electrical end of the business with your little
admission that you just learned why a 220 device only draws
half the amps at 110. I've forgotten more than you obviously
know about electrical matters. Oops! I forgot - that can't
be! - you're a perfessional.
TP
Don Ocean
Tom Pendergast wrote:
Tom... Vicki dedicated a webpage to your superior knowledge... ;-)
Hvacmam
> Hvacmam <vickin...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
>> You want to know why he hangs out here? Because he doesn't have
>> a life. That is freaking obvious.
>>
>> Sort the newsgroup by sender - look at the times and frequency
>> of his posts. Cripes! What kind of person just sits at the
>> computer for hours on end like that, posting in a group where he
>> knows nothing about the subject and contributes virtually nothing?
>>
>
> Woooo!!! Can't argue the points, just go right for a personal
> attack, huh? Sorry you think I just "sit here" for hours on end.
> Gee, maybe I just "sit down here" several times a day while I'm
> doing other things (hint, hint) and check e-mail and newsgroups,
> but that would let the air out of your little spew, wouldn't it?
Lemme see...yesterday...your postings...
7:21 a.m.
8:33 a.m.
8:42 a.m.
9:34 a.m.
9:39 a.m.
9:44 a.m.
10:45 a.m.
11:13 a.m.
11:24 a.m.
siesta
4:01 p.m.
4:06 p.m.
beer and dinner break
8:27 p.m.
10:14 p.m.
In my country, we call that "pathetic." Your life must be very boring
that you check your mail and newsgroups that frequently. Do you live in
Michigan?
> Speaking of "knowing nothing" you proved how little you know
> about the electrical end of the business with your little
> admission that you just learned why a 220 device only draws
> half the amps at 110. I've forgotten more than you obviously
> know about electrical matters. Oops! I forgot - that can't
> be! - you're a perfessional.
>
> TP
>
It just means that it's been decades since I applied the wrong
voltage to something...intentionally or not. I learned about that back
when you were in diapers. Oops! That could be today. Depends.
Tom Pendergast
>> Hvacmam <vickin...@usa.net> wrote:
>>> You want to know why he hangs out here? Because he doesn't
>>> have a life. That is freaking obvious.
> Lemme see...yesterday...your postings...
> 7:21 a.m.
> 8:33 a.m.
> 8:42 a.m.
> 9:34 a.m.
> 9:39 a.m.
> 9:44 a.m.
> 10:45 a.m.
> 11:13 a.m.
> 11:24 a.m.
> siesta
> 4:01 p.m.
> 4:06 p.m.
> beer and dinner break
> 8:27 p.m.
> 10:14 p.m.
BWA HA HA HAAHAAHAAA HA HA!!! Somebody call the folks
at Webster's. We have a new definition for "Pot calling
the kettle black"!
TP
TURTLE
"pvg" <p...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:d82e91c2.03011...@posting.google.com...
This is Turtle.
Well Paul , forgive us for the jumping on turkeys tring to answer question
with no knownledge of what the options are. Just ignore it and we will get
back to your questions for we don't like bad advice given out by want-a-bee
hvac tech but only a apartment renter.
Now Money is short , two apartments up / down on one hvac system, and one
thermostat down staires.
Here is my thoughts on it. Get with both renters and have them meet and try
to work out a system or option that will work for both partys. You will be
surprised what two renter can come up with when they come together. You can
explain to the renters what the problem is and they will 90% of the time
work out a system that works. People love to give input to a problem of any
nature and this is one.
Now if the two renters can work out a system or temperature to stay at. You
can turn the furnace blower on contenious fan and both apartment will be the
same temperature on what you have it set at. This could be a option if the
two renters could agree on heating and cooling temperature to set at.
Now before you start paying air balancers and service people to come in and
work on it. Try getting the renters to get together deal first and with the
fan running on contenious fan while in use. When heat or cooling is not
needed. just turn contenious fan off and not burn the electricity.
Now if the contenious fan running is not in the picture you may try the
fellow who know how to balance the air going up and down stairs. this should
be a second option for it cost to work on it.
Now To the other HVAC group members here. I would like for you'll to add to
or give other option on this problem. Zoning and two systems is out for cost
right now. What is another option here?
TURTLE
TURTLE
This is Turtle.
You say your a women !
TURTLE
BobS
Bob
"Don Ocean" <oc...@amerion.com> wrote in message
news:3E23E31E...@amerion.com...
TimR
>
> If the Accustats had been put in the return air of the units as a
> limiting thermostat (i.e., return air temperature of greater than the
> setpoint would shut off the heat) it could have worked. Unless the
> tenants got inside the units themselves. You could always use security
> screws.
>
>
> Vicki
(writing with some trepidation, because Vicki's been mean to me before
<grin>)
I've thought of doing that, because I have a lot of trouble with
vandalism to thermostats. Normally I can't charge the guilty people
for the damage.
Here's one problem with it though. When the unit is running, the
return air temperature is a pretty good indication of the room
temperature. But when the unit satifies and air is not moving
anymore, then the temperature in the return can be greatly different
from that in the room, and you no longer have decent temperature
control. It's not just a matter of figuring out an offset, because
you have two completely different sets of operating conditions.
Any ideas?
Iove doII
>From: "TURTLE" tur...@worldnetla.net
>Date: 1/13/2003 6:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <b0099e$jjg4v$1...@ID-79743.news.dfncis.de>
>. Try getting the renters to get together deal first and with the
>fan running on contenious fan while in use. When heat or cooling is not
>needed. just turn contenious fan off and not burn the electricity.
>
<snip>
>Now To the other HVAC group members here. I would like for you'll to add to
>or give other option on this problem. Zoning and two systems is out for cost
>right now. What is another option here?
>
>TURTLE
Other options are:
modify the lease to read whichever tenant controls the thermostat pays the
entire utility bill.
or install a digital t-stat inacessible to the tenants with two remote
sensors, one for each floor. t-stat averages the two sensor readings. As
Turtle says, continous fan is a must.
or give downstairs tenant control of the thermostat and upstairs tenant
control of the electrical switch powering up the equipment.
Hvacmam
What I was suggesting was using the Accustat or another thermal
limiter in the return air. If the return air goes above a setpoint
(e.g., 74º), it will break the circuit to the hating device. It still
uses the unit thermostat; it just won't allow it to run any warmer than
what you set it at.
We use things like that out here where some locations insist on
freezing up their units in the middle of the summer, mostly by dumping
their thermostats. An accustat installed in the return air plenum to
break the yellow wire at 72º won't stop it from coming on because the
fan will still start. I guess it depends on what kind of units you're
talking about, but there's usually somewhere and somehow you can install
some kind of limiter.
Vicki
thallo...@gmail.com
On Saturday, January 11, 2003 at 5:08:09 PM UTC-5, Tom Pendergast wrote:
> p...@shaw.ca (pvg) wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > Hoping for some suggestions on how to keep my tenants happy.
> > I own a house with a three bedroom rental suite down and another 3
> > bedroom up.
> > They are both heated by the same Lennox Pulse propane furnace.
> > There is a thermostat located in each suite. When the downstairs
> > tenant leaves the house for the day they often leave the heat turned
> > up after cranking it in the morning to take the chill off. The
>
> That should tell you all you need to know...
>
> > downstairs tenant has also started to leave the heat cranked up all
PaxPerPoten
> Even though this post is 15 years old, i am horrified to see you describe that you think of your tenants as "Not too smart". are you a slum lord? this is incredibly bias and lends me to think that you take advantage of your people. I'm going to find the sites for your properties and post a link/screenshot of this post in case you delete. horrifying.
unhealthy) to have a shared air heat and/or cooling system.
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster