Carrier Weathermaker 58SX Question
rh...@blazenet.net
anyone has a thought
Carrier Furnace Model 58SXB from ~1987
A 12 year old carrier condensing furnace which worked all winter is
now pooping out overnight with outside temps dipping to the 40's. It
flashes a code of PILOT PROVING LOCKOUT each time. The technicians
have been out three times. After turning power off for a second, it
starts up fine, but after running well for several hours it stops and
the same error code comes in. I ran it for 30 min tonight and no
error, but it seems if we leave it overnight or for several hours
during the day, it locks out.
Work Done
Replace the Pilot mechanism ($120)
Remove the rocks from the vent piping my 2 year old shoved in when we
weren't looking.
They have checked voltages and seem satisfied.
Next step per staff is to consider replacing the circuit boards
(~$500).
I am not sure that they have turned the setup switch on and and
jumpered the R, W and Y leads simultaneously to clear the fault
history and then turned of the setup switch, but will ask if I get
them out again. (How important is that to do)
Questions
1) does replacing the circuit board seem logical even though it runs
well for hours and then stops and locks up? Should I consider second
opinion.
2) about how much might it cost to replace this furnace with a similar
model and should I consider it instead of further repairs?
3) if you replace the furnace, can you keep the airconditioning unit?
Thanks for your help
R. Hal Baker, MD
rh...@blazenet.net
Butch
servi...@my-deja.com
Just a thought
"Pilot proving lockout means just that"- Flame is not being proved!
It does not mean change the board -
My suggestion - Call a HVAC tech who knows what he's doing. Not a power
switch switcher or a board changer.
But someone who understands flame rectification.
Regards
Paul
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
turtle4air
This is turtle.
Here is my 2 cents.
# 1 If it has a flame sencer --- change it.
# 2 I think the furnace is not grounded or has lost it's ground back
to switch box.
# 3 Tell the service company --- what part is bad and then changes
it. I'm not
paying for witch hunt for parts.
TURTLE
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AllTemp
AllTemp wrote:
>
> Speaking of Flame Rods..... I've been finding that W/R has a universal
> flame sense rod and I've been using it as a stand-in in alot of
> different applications until the correct part can be installed... Just a
> tip !
> --
> MDamron, AllTemp
>
> http://www.alltemphvac.net
>
> HVAC CHAT Room - http://www.alltemphvac.net/hvac.html
--
MDamron, AllTemp
HVAC CHAT Room - http://www.alltemphvac.net/hvac.html
R. Hal Baker, MD
wrote:
>Check for more rocks or debris
>
Butch
THanks for your thoughts. I actually had the hole vent piping cut
down and replaced and checked to make sure it was clear. Some of the
rocks had gotten down to the horizontal piece running ten feet to the
furnace.
R. Hal Baker, MD
>
>Just a thought
>"Pilot proving lockout means just that"- Flame is not being proved!
>It does not mean change the board -
>My suggestion - Call a HVAC tech who knows what he's doing. Not a power
>switch switcher or a board changer.
>But someone who understands flame rectification.
>Regards
>Paul
THanks Paul
The question on the power switch and set up was from my review of the
service manual of what to do clean and restart the system. I wondered
if that was the service persons mistake as the pilot comes on every
time I have tried it and watched. I diagnose humans for a living, not
circuit boards, but I appreciate you agreeing wit my suspicion that
replacing the circuit board seemed an odd diagnostic choice here.
Pardon one more dumb question. Does "flame not proved" mean the pilot
isn't working or the sensor that tells the furnace the pilot actually
is on is not working and the furnace can't prove the pilot light is
on, or does it mean something else.
I appreciate your help
R. Hal Baker,
Steve Bukosky
>Replace the Pilot mechanism ($120)
The infamous "Pilot Burner" uses a bimetal flame sensor on this
furnace. The problem is likely that either the pilot is not lighting
or is not being large enough to heat up the flame sensor to make it
"change over".
I have seen this problem because a hard to get at screw was not
replaced which holds the bottom plate on. This plate has to be
removed to replace the pilot burner. If all the screws are not
replaced, air can be drawn in through the hole and prevent the pilot
from lighting.
There may be too much combustion air being delivered due to a pressure
switch getting stiff with age. On this furnace the venter settles on
a certain speed based on when the pressure switches close. The fix
may be to check that the baffle on the air inlet to the burner box is
secure and then drop in piece of metal about an inch or so round, or
square, which might change the air pattern from disrupting the pilot
gas.
This should be the first check, make sure that the pilot orifice is
clean and that the pilot flame is large enough. Pilot gas is
non-regulated unlike the main burner gas so if there is more that 1/2"
of pressure drop on the gas supply pipe, that can cause pilot flame
shrinkage and consequential drop out.
Finally, the pilot burner itself may be bad even though it is fairly
new.
Buy a new furnace? I have seen SXB's that have secondary heat
exchanger separation. I would suggest that you replace it. The newer
Carrier two stage variable blower, the 58MVP is a good unit and has a
better ignition system and electronics. The Trane TUY and American
Standard AUY are very similar two stage variable units also. You can
get a longer extended warranty with the Trane and American Standard.
Oh yes, just thought of another possibility. The orange ignition wire
might have the center conductor recessed in the insulation. This can
cause intermittant sparking of the ignitor and the spurious electrical
noise it gives off can induce a fault code lockout in the board. An
arcing electronic air cleaner can do this too.
Steve Bukosky sbuk...@execpc.com
http://www.execpc.com/~sbukosky
http://www.galarson.com/
.
Wilson Bros
the secondary cells or heat exchanger on the Carrier cond furnaces have been a
problem until recently. The silicone from inside the cell peels off then clogs
the drain, causing the pressure sw to open. Forget what the fault code says.
Also would give serious concideration towars replacement.
tom bodden
R. Hal Baker, MD <rh...@blazenet.net> wrote in message
news:38c59b23...@news.blazenet.net...
tom bodden
below but the spark module could be a problem. dont think a new module
should cost 500 so shop around. and a little baby sitting might be on order
for that kind of money. have seen new pilot assy's sit there aand not warm
up quickly enough and the module times out if that module has that feature.
tom bodden <trbo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:01kx4.133483$j63.3...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Murdentech
control module. This is the black box on the right below the burner chamber.
Some models have an internal lockout, which I have been having some trouble
with lately on some 10 year old SX models. The part isn't cheap, but if it
is the ignition module with the internal lockout this may be the problem.
Also have the high-limit changed out, this is a $15.00 part.
The pilot is called a "three wire pilot" only Carrier and Bryant use this
ignitor. It is a spark to pilot style with built in heat sensor. They last
8 to 14 years.
Now also check the inducer blower. If it is the original, you may be ready
for a new motor. It may be heating up after a long run time and cutting out.
I keep a whole stock of parts for these furnaces on my truck. (I take care
of about 30 of them that are all over 10 years old). They are good furnaces
and with new parts after a decade, the furnace is good for another decade.
The heat exchanger has liftime warranty.... in other words you'll not need a
new unit, but you may put in lots of parts between the 12th and 15th year.
The problems I have had are: Bad blower motor, bad inducer motor, bad
circuit (fan) board, bad 3-wire pilot, bad iginition module, bad high-limit,
and an occasional bad gas valve. I have NEVER had all these problems on the
same unit and there are testing methods for each part. Depending on the
labor rate and markup your contractor is getting depends on how much it'll
cost you. Talk to them about a discount if you get a service agreement with
them. Be frank with them and let them know they've made plenty of profit
from the previous "fixes" that didn't work and you won't be taken to the
bank on getting the unit running properly.
These furnaces are easy to work on and Carrier offers training to field
technicians on repairing them. A properly trained tech can spot the trouble
with the unit and fix the problem right off the bat.
--
Jeff Murden
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.murdentech.com
"Quality is worth every dime".
<rh...@blazenet.net> wrote in message
news:38c47857...@news.blazenet.net...
> Pardon me if it isn't appropriate to post this here, but I wonder if
> anyone has a thought
>
> Carrier Furnace Model 58SXB from ~1987
>
> A 12 year old carrier condensing furnace which worked all winter is
> now pooping out overnight with outside temps dipping to the 40's. It
> flashes a code of PILOT PROVING LOCKOUT each time. The technicians
> have been out three times. After turning power off for a second, it
> starts up fine, but after running well for several hours it stops and
> the same error code comes in. I ran it for 30 min tonight and no
> error, but it seems if we leave it overnight or for several hours
> during the day, it locks out.
>
> Work Done
> Replace the Pilot mechanism ($120)
> Remove the rocks from the vent piping my 2 year old shoved in when we
> weren't looking.
> They have checked voltages and seem satisfied.
>
> Next step per staff is to consider replacing the circuit boards
> (~$500).
>
> I am not sure that they have turned the setup switch on and and
> jumpered the R, W and Y leads simultaneously to clear the fault
> history and then turned of the setup switch, but will ask if I get
> them out again. (How important is that to do)
>
> Questions
> 1) does replacing the circuit board seem logical even though it runs
> well for hours and then stops and locks up? Should I consider second
> opinion.
> 2) about how much might it cost to replace this furnace with a similar
> model and should I consider it instead of further repairs?
> 3) if you replace the furnace, can you keep the airconditioning unit?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
Murdentech
"Wilson Bros" <wilso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000307224213...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
I doubt that dribble... I haven't had a plugged secondary or clogged trap on
any of the 30 SX's I take care of. Also, there is no fault code on this
furnace. Turning power off resets the lockout, but there is no indicator
light on any of the boards on this model. You may be referring to the newer
model, but not the ones made in the mid and late '80's.
There is absolutely no need to consider replacement. There is need to have a
tech familiar with this furnace to work on it. Carrier has their own way of
doing things and you have to understand their procedures and follow them.
There are testers available for 3-wire pilots and gas valves. If you don't
have the tester or know how to make the wires sequentially to perform
testing, you may end up changing parts unnecessarily.
tom bodden
warp switch which has normally open and normally closed contacts.if the
contacts are not closed at startup ( call for heat ) thats one problem. if
the contaacts dont close when being heaated thats another problem ( the most
common ). see bukovsky's comments. even that little screw hole right under
the pilot burner can cause a problem. also the contacts can be dirty etc but
since its been change we can probavbly rule that out. it just may be a
defective replacement part ( happens ). they should warrant that part of job
to rule it out. the board could be failing ( it does happen ) but the
piiilot burner should be ruled out first. as bukovsky said check pilot
flame, as i said the sparker could be intermittent. lots of possibilities.
but the transitioning from off to on at the pilot burner is the prime
suspect at this time.
R. Hal Baker, MD <rh...@blazenet.net> wrote in message
news:38c59bd7...@news.blazenet.net...
>
> R. Hal Baker,
R. Hal Baker, MD
wrote:
>doc, is that a hsi or spaark unit?
I assume you mean the pilot. It clicks as it comes on like my stove,
so I assume it as a spark unit. I honestly don't know what a HSI is?
>
>
R. Hal Baker, MD
Thanks to all for your very thoughtful comments. This has been a
great resource and I will share your thoughts with the Carrier Trained
person I get out here as I don't think the people I called before were
Carrier Trained. My mistake.
brian s-
>I keep a whole stock of parts for these furnaces on my truck......
You have only 30 out there, but have to keep all the parts on your
truck? Doesn't sound too reliable to me!
>The problems I have had are: Bad blower motor, bad inducer motor, bad
>circuit (fan) board, bad 3-wire pilot, bad iginition module, bad high-limit,
>and an occasional bad gas valve.
Is that all? Don't forget that little circuit board that controls the
inducer assembly.
>These furnaces are easy to work on
I used to HATE to work on these things!
I remember one I had where the burners would fire up, but the blower
would not run. I replaced the circuit board. Still wouldn't run. I
was miffed. What I eventually found was the common wire from the 5
wire gas valve goes to ground, AND the circuit board. The wire to
ground enabled the gas valve to operate, but the common going to the
circuit board had a bad connection at the board, and this is
apparantly how the board knows the burners are burning and to turn on
the fan. The hole in the bottom of the burner compartment funnels any
condensate in the area right down onto the board, messing up the board
and connector.
Jeff, I'll let you have all the 58SS/58SX's. Give me the 58GP's. Now
_THAT'S_ a furnace I can like!
Brian
Perry5367
operate. A loose ground wire can drive a technician nuts.
The pilot proving switch Carrier uses on this furnace is the most logical cause
of your problem.
jfoolmoon
problem. Would double check insulation on wires from pilot assembly &
check wire connectors. Would think twice about board replacement. If
you replace furnace you can keep A/C. New furnaces are much better. You
basically have a furnace that was the 1st of it's kind. The new ones
have a lot of the bugs out of them.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Kekakoka
compartment. I had a simular problem.
Kekakoka
in the burner compartment.you will need to slightly twist make movement to
that connection to see any results. I had a simular problem.
Murdentech
board. I am glad they changed the design.... Now I'm certainly not saying
the SX is ANY more reliable than any other unit of it's vintage.... I'm just
saying that I haven't found a fatal flaw in one yet.... I have one that is
the WORST installation I've ever seen, it hasn't had a filter in it for ten
years (cheap apt owner won't pay to have a rack installed). The damn thing
needs repair parts once in a while but it refuses to die.
As for easy to work on, I like the newer Tempstar just fine.
Jeff
"brian s-" <spen...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:38c7160a...@news.mindspring.com...
Jim Darling
of minutes usually just to find components through all of the dirt and slag, but
they haven't given up. Junk does a number on the motors and their bearings
though.