Opinion on PAYNE from Carrier
Chuck
A local HVAC contractor is trying very hard to sell me on the
advantages of a PAYNE condenser over Janitrol/Goodman and
Grandaire/Frigidaire/Nordyne.
I know zero about PAYNE, other than it's manufactured by CARRIER, and
marketed as a "no frills" low end model ....see www.payne.com for more
info.
Application is a 2 ton 10 SEER split system condenser replacement (for
a condo) .. Not a heat pump .... Area is coastal Florida.
Should I take the bait?
Chuck
Central Florida
Bubba
for the cheapest of the cheap with all of the brands you have
mentioned below. In the costal Florida area, I would expect a few
years use out of all of them, then you can shell out the bucks for
another unit again and again and again. Orrrrrrrrr, you can spend some
extra cash, get a premium unit (dont care which one) with a 10 year
parts and labor warranty, then let the installing contractor and or
distributor worry about making it last for 10 years of service. You
decide..........
Bubba
VairXpert
I'm an HVAC service tech for a Carrier dealer (been there 10 years).
Our main brand is Carrier, however we also install/service Janitrol,
Armstrong, York,Trane, Lennox, ect. My work covers residential,
commercial (Walmart, HomeDepot, Super K's, Toy R US, AutoZone just to
name a few of my larger accounts) and large Industrial (US Steel, LTV
Steel, Bethlehem, BETA ect).
For the most part I know what's good and what to avoid.
I JUST installed all Payne equipment in my own house a few weeks ago.
The PG9MAA furnace is Carrier inside and out. Comes right off the
same assembly line as the genuine Carrier furnaces.
The Payne warranty at 5 years for parts is just about the best in the
industry.
From what I understand Payne is less expensive than Carrier and
Bryant because Payne's advertising is not as large.
For the price it just doesn't get any better.
The Payne Condensor (A/C) unit is sold by Carrier but it is NOT the
same as a Carrier.
I personally think the design is much nicer looking than the Carrier
CKB/TKBO line. Controls are easy to access. All parts are high
quality...GE motor and I believe Copeland compressors are used.
It's a solid, well built quiet running unit that I feel is every bit
as good if not better than Carrier.
It also has the 5 year parts warranty.
If you have the chance to get it I highly recommend it.
Janitrol/Glocore is cheap trash. The inside nickname for it is
Junkitrol. Even the actual housing of the condensors and furnaces is
about as thick as a pepsi can.
I would only recommend it to my worst enemy (as long as I didn't have
to warranty it).
Armstrong makes a good product. Condesor units are very reliable and
well built. Furnaces are pretty much bear essentials easy to work on
yet effecient. I considered Armstrong for my house but I think
Carrier/Bryant/Payne is just a notch better.
Frigidaire isn't available around here so I can't comment on it.
Although if it's a WCI product like their refrigerator line I would
avoid it like the plague.
George
Chuck
>You can take the bait with any one of them. Looks like you are looking
>for the cheapest of the cheap with all of the brands you have
>mentioned below. In the costal Florida area, I would expect a few
>years use out of all of them, then you can shell out the bucks for
>another unit again and again and again. Orrrrrrrrr, you can spend some
>extra cash, get a premium unit (dont care which one) with a 10 year
>parts and labor warranty, then let the installing contractor and or
>distributor worry about making it last for 10 years of service. You
>decide..........
>Bubba
The "cheap" units your referring to have a 5 year factory backed
warranty ALL parts and a 1 year warranty on labor ... This seems to me
to be a fair deal ... If a major component fails after 5 years, just
junk it ..... I don't think the economics can justify spending 50%
more for a high end unit that has a slim chance of seeing 10 years for
coastal Florida. 10 years in Florida is equivalent to 25 years in New
York.
Regarding 10 year labor warranty, I've never seen this offered .. Who
offers this in a 10 SEER model?
VairXpert
>Regarding 10 year labor warranty, I've never seen this offered .. Who
>offers this in a 10 SEER model?
>
You can up the Payne warranty to 10 years dirt cheap.
My Furnace, condensor and evap coil cost me around $85 to extend it to
10 years for parts.
Chuck
When I called the Payne factory, they said their warranty depended on
the model. When I inquired about the 10 SEER split system condensor,
they said warranty was only 1 year for parts and 5 years for the
condensor ... Only 1 year for labor.
However, my local Carrier dealer said that the warranty for this unit
is 5 years for all parts just for the state of Florida ... Warranty
for Payne sounds suspect to me ... Why just Florida offering 5 years?
The Grandaire/Nordyne is 5 years for ALL parts and the
Frigidarie/Nordyne is 8 yrs for ALL parts.
>From what I understand Payne is less expensive than Carrier and
>Bryant because Payne's advertising is not as large.
I don't buy this argument ... Payne must be cutting corners if they're
coming off the same production line as Carrier units.
Maybe the cheaper 10 SEER units are built elsewhere??
>For the price it just doesn't get any better.
>
>The Payne Condensor (A/C) unit is sold by Carrier but it is NOT the
>same as a Carrier.
Are they any differences internally for the 10 SEER model?
>I personally think the design is much nicer looking than the Carrier
>CKB/TKBO line. Controls are easy to access. All parts are high
>quality...GE motor and I believe Copeland compressors are used.
I was told that 10 SEER models use a conventional piston compressor
and it's not a Copeland brand ... Something that starts with a "B".
>It's a solid, well built quiet running unit that I feel is every bit
>as good if not better than Carrier.
>It also has the 5 year parts warranty.
>If you have the chance to get it I highly recommend it.
>
>Janitrol/Glocore is cheap trash. The inside nickname for it is
>Junkitrol. Even the actual housing of the condensors and furnaces is
>about as thick as a pepsi can.
>I would only recommend it to my worst enemy (as long as I didn't have
>to warranty it).
>
>Armstrong makes a good product. Condesor units are very reliable and
>well built. Furnaces are pretty much bear essentials easy to work on
>yet effecient. I considered Armstrong for my house but I think
>Carrier/Bryant/Payne is just a notch better.
>
>Frigidaire isn't available around here so I can't comment on it.
>Although if it's a WCI product like their refrigerator line I would
>avoid it like the plague.
No, it's not WCI.
Here's some additional info on the Frigidaire/Nordyne brand:
NORDYNE is a wholly owned subsidiary of Nortek, Inc. Nortek is a
leading manufacturer of high quality building products for
residential, light commercial, and commercial applications. A sampling
of Nortek零 other subsidiaries include Mammoth, Temtrol, Webco,
Governair, Broan-NuTone, and Peachtree.
NORDYNE is a leading manufacturer of heating and cooling products and
replacement parts for residential and light commercial markets. They
market a complete line of gas, oil, and electric furnaces, air
conditioners, heat pumps, and air handlers. EAI members will have
access to NORDYNE零 complete product line that includes:
Frigidaire
Tappan
Kelvinator
Philco
Gibson
Grandaire
Thermal Zone
Excel Air
Excellence
>
>George
>
>
Chuck
(VairXpert) wrote:
>You can up the Payne warranty to 10 years dirt cheap.
>
>My Furnace, condensor and evap coil cost me around $85 to extend it to
>10 years for parts.
Frigidaire/Nordyne offer extended warranties they call WATCHDOG
PROTECTION ... This is a factory-backed program for faster claim
service.
However, not sure how much extra this might cost.
Gary E
last week they only have a 1 year parts warranty on the 10 SEER & 5 on the
compressor only. As far as labor, unless you buy a seperate warranty from
the manufacturer the only warrantee is what the installer gives you no
matter what unit you buy.
All that aside if the unit is installed properly you should be fine with a
Payne.
I'm very negative about the new equipment today.
Some are quieter, some have a better paint job, but I think they're all
made like crap, so you might as well buy the cheapest.
Gary
Gary E
assessment of Janitrol.
I put Janitrol in my own home & I'd rate them about the same with Janitrol
being slightly a little more reliable than a Payne.
Janitrol also has a better warranty.
Payne has a much better paint job though.
Gary
VairXpert
I'm in Indiana and it's 5 years all parts for the Payne A/C. Carrier
is 1 year and 5 years compressor (I think10 years on the TKB line).
I have the 2.5 ton 10 SEER unit, 3 ton evap coil and a 3 ton drive on
my furnace.
>
>The Grandaire/Nordyne is 5 years for ALL parts and the
>Frigidarie/Nordyne is 8 yrs for ALL parts.
>
>>From what I understand Payne is less expensive than Carrier and
>>Bryant because Payne's advertising is not as large.
>
>I don't buy this argument ... Payne must be cutting corners if they're
>coming off the same production line as Carrier units.
Only the furnaces are coming off the same assembly line. Every single
part in it is Carrier. Every part has a Carrier part number on it.
Same efficiency, same 4 speed motor and the heat exchanger has the
same lifetime warranty on it.
>
>Maybe the cheaper 10 SEER units are built elsewhere??
The Payne condensor units are not built by Carrier.
>
>>For the price it just doesn't get any better.
>>
>>The Payne Condensor (A/C) unit is sold by Carrier but it is NOT the
>>same as a Carrier.
>
>Are they any differences internally for the 10 SEER model?
Over what other model?
If you're also replacing your indoor coil you may want to size it up
slightly. If you install a 2 ton condensor put in a 2.5 ton
evaporator coil and then take the piston that came with the condensor
and install that in the evap coil. This will actually push your SEER
rating up by one point.
>
>
>>I personally think the design is much nicer looking than the Carrier
>>CKB/TKBO line. Controls are easy to access. All parts are high
>>quality...GE motor and I believe Copeland compressors are used.
>
>I was told that 10 SEER models use a conventional piston compressor
>and it's not a Copeland brand ... Something that starts with a "B".
It is a piston compressor which is about all you'll get in a 10 SEER
unit. Scroll compressors are more commonly used in higher SEER rated
models. Scroll compressors are"whiney" loud and I get many more
customer complaints of noise due to the harmonic vibration that gets
transfered to the house through the lineset.
They have come a long way over the past few years though. The
shutdown "clunk" noise is cured, thick insulated jackets over the
compressor quiet them down and they are now just as reliable as the
piston type.
I just grabbed a flash light and went outside...My 10 SEER Payne does
in fact have a Copeland compressor and GE condensor fan motor :)
Frigidaire, Tappan, Kelvinator and Gibson are WCI appliance brands.
They are pretty much the low end when compared to Whirlpool and
Maycor.
The HVAC line may be totally different than their appliance line so I
can't really say anything about that.
George
VairXpert
>You'd better check the Payne warrantee again. Unless they've changed in the
>last week they only have a 1 year parts warranty on the 10 SEER & 5 on the
>compressor only. As far as labor, unless you buy a seperate warranty from
>the manufacturer the only warrantee is what the installer gives you no
>matter what unit you buy.
I think you have to buy it through a Carrier distributor for the 5
years all parts warranty. I was told by the branch manager at Harry
Alter that THEY are actually paying for the 5 year extended warranty
on the furnace and condensor. The manuals state one year parts and
labor. However my paperwork from the distributor states 5 years and
they are the ones that give me the replacment parts. I believe their
informational brochures state 5 years too.
>
>All that aside if the unit is installed properly you should be fine with a
>Payne.
>I'm very negative about the new equipment today.
> Some are quieter, some have a better paint job, but I think they're all
>made like crap, so you might as well buy the cheapest.
Have you ever worked on the ultimate piece of crap? A YORK Triathlon?
Murdentech
unit for the money, has a scroll compressor and a 10 year compressor
warranty. The low end models all have cheaper cabinets and simple design
with few frills. As long as you get a Copeland scroll, you can't get a
better compressor. I certainly wouldn't give more money for any of Carrier's
equipment over any other equipment, especially in a builder's model.
--
Jeff Murden
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.murdentech.com
"Quality is worth every dime".
"Chuck" <chu...@digital.net> wrote in message
news:3b5784e...@news.digital.net...
J. S. Nunes
look for equipment that use 90+% "off the shelf" parts instead of
propriatary parts, Cheap is NOT the way to go, spend a little more and get
much better efficiency, quality, and warrenty. It doesn't have to be the
"big 3" (Trane, Carrier, Lennox) nor does it have to be bottom of the line
"spec house specials" (Junkatrol, Armstrong, Nordyne). You will get what you
pay for!!
"VairXpert" <vair...@killspamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b57a9c7...@news.netnitco.net...
Jim
you not 1, not 2, but at least 3 new heat exchangers before the furnance is
replaced. I was replacing any where from 20 to 30 exchangers, and 10 to 20
cond coils ( do to coil blow out) that I quit working on Junkatrol all
together. Now on the other hand, out of all the Payne that we installed over
the last few years, we have had no problems.
"Murdentech" <mur...@murdentech.com> wrote in message
news:P5U57.46695$dd1.7...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Chuck
wrote:
>IMHO, you might inquire about the Janitrol 12 SEER heat pump. It's a decent
>unit for the money, has a scroll compressor and a 10 year compressor
>warranty. The low end models all have cheaper cabinets and simple design
>with few frills. As long as you get a Copeland scroll, you can't get a
>better compressor. I certainly wouldn't give more money for any of Carrier's
>equipment over any other equipment, especially in a builder's model.
Your suggestion prompted me to shop around some more and include some
higher quality brands.
Found a dealer offering what I think is a great deal on an ARMSTRONG
12 SEER 2 ton split system condenser for only $80 more than a PAYNE 10
SEER. Price is about the same as a 10 SEER Rheem that was quoted by
another dealer. Has a Copeland scroll compressor as you suggested with
a 10 yr warranty. Parts are 5 yrs ... Dealer also offered a 5 yr labor
warranty if I agree to preventative maintenance for years 2-5.
Bottom line, about $150 more than a 10 SEER JANITROL/GOODMAN and about
$200 more than a 10 SEER GRANDAIRE/NORDYNE, but I guess it'll be worth
it .... Right?
Chuck,
Central Florida
Chuck
>
>The Payne condensor units are not built by Carrier.
Any idea who does?
>>>The Payne Condensor (A/C) unit is sold by Carrier but it is NOT the
>>>same as a Carrier.
>>
>>Are they any differences internally for the 10 SEER model?
>
>Over what other model?
Compared to an equivalent Carrier model?
>>>I personally think the design is much nicer looking than the Carrier
>>>CKB/TKBO line. Controls are easy to access. All parts are high
>>>quality...GE motor and I believe Copeland compressors are used.
My local CARRIER/PAYNE dealer said compressor in the PAYNE was made by
BRISTOL, not Copeland.
J. S. Nunes
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:54:39 GMT, "Murdentech" <mur...@murdentech.com>
> wrote:
>
> >IMHO, you might inquire about the Janitrol 12 SEER heat pump. It's a
decent
> >unit for the money, has a scroll compressor and a 10 year compressor
> >warranty. The low end models all have cheaper cabinets and simple design
> >with few frills. As long as you get a Copeland scroll, you can't get a
> >better compressor. I certainly wouldn't give more money for any of
Carrier's
> >equipment over any other equipment, especially in a builder's model.
>
>
> Your suggestion prompted me to shop around some more and include some
> higher quality brands.
>
> Found a dealer offering what I think is a great deal on an ARMSTRONG
> 12 SEER 2 ton split system condenser for only $80 more than a PAYNE 10
> SEER. Price is about the same as a 10 SEER Rheem that was quoted by
> another dealer. Has a Copeland scroll compressor as you suggested with
> a 10 yr warranty. Parts are 5 yrs ... Dealer also offered a 5 yr labor
> warranty if I agree to preventative maintenance for years 2-5.
Armstrong isn't much better quality than Janitrol. Quit trying to go with
CHEAP!! you will get what you pay for
Look for an excellent installation first, then top quality service, then the
equipment.
Unless you are building a "spec" house, DO look seriously at 12 SEER
equipment.
maybe look at a good quality mid line equipment like Rheem, or Heil
> Bottom line, about $150 more than a 10 SEER JANITROL/GOODMAN and about
> $200 more than a 10 SEER GRANDAIRE/NORDYNE, but I guess it'll be worth
> it .... Right?
Wrong...its NOT the bottom line you need to consider
> Chuck,
> Central Florida
>
>
>
>
Chuck
Janitrol/GOODMAN or that RHEEM is MUCH BETTER.
Here's why I think ARMSTRONG beats Janitrol and is an equal to Rheem:
- ARMSTRONG is backed by LENNOX INTERNATION CORP.
- ARMSTRONG is an ISO 9001 certified company.
- COPELAND SCROLL COMPRESSOR with 10 yr warranty.
- POWDER-COAT FINISH for added corrosion resistance.
- SMALLER FOOTPRINT THAN RHEEM for tight areas.
- MORE EFFICIENT HEAT TRANSFER THAN RHEEM .. Still cools @ 125 deg.
- HEAVY GAUGE PVC-COATED GRILL GUARD
- GALVANIZED STEEL BASE
>Armstrong isn't much better quality than Janitrol. Quit trying to go with
>CHEAP!! you will get what you pay for
>Look for an excellent installation first, then top quality service, then the
>equipment.
>Unless you are building a "spec" house, DO look seriously at 12 SEER
>equipment.
>maybe look at a good quality mid line equipment like Rheem, or Heil
I'm replacing a HEIL that failed after only 6 years.
Bill
(Chuck) wrote:
> Can't agree that ARMSTRONG is only SLIGHTLY better than
> Janitrol/GOODMAN or that RHEEM is MUCH BETTER.
>
> Here's why I think ARMSTRONG beats Janitrol and is an equal to Rheem:
>
> - ARMSTRONG is backed by LENNOX INTERNATION CORP.
> - ARMSTRONG is an ISO 9001 certified company.
> - COPELAND SCROLL COMPRESSOR with 10 yr warranty.
> - POWDER-COAT FINISH for added corrosion resistance.
> - SMALLER FOOTPRINT THAN RHEEM for tight areas.
> - MORE EFFICIENT HEAT TRANSFER THAN RHEEM .. Still cools @ 125 deg.
Does that mean thinner tubing?
> - HEAVY GAUGE PVC-COATED GRILL GUARD
> - GALVANIZED STEEL BASE
You can get ten years on Rheem.
ALL Rheem's have Copeland Scroll's.
Rheem is good solid equipment at a reasonable price.
Lennox isn't something I'd brag about. They nail you on parts. Armstrong
like that?
Everything beats Janitrol except Moncrief. That's some shit equipment.
Now that the Japanese own Rheem the New stuff out is excellent.
Good engineering.
J. S. Nunes
"Bill" <tsu...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tsurber-ya02408000R2207010114010001@news-server...
> In article <3b5a3e0b...@news.digital.net>, chu...@digital.net
> (Chuck) wrote:
>
> > Can't agree that ARMSTRONG is only SLIGHTLY better than
> > Janitrol/GOODMAN or that RHEEM is MUCH BETTER.
> >
> > Here's why I think ARMSTRONG beats Janitrol and is an equal to Rheem:
> >
> > - ARMSTRONG is backed by LENNOX INTERNATION CORP.
> > - ARMSTRONG is an ISO 9001 certified company.
> > - COPELAND SCROLL COMPRESSOR with 10 yr warranty.
> > - POWDER-COAT FINISH for added corrosion resistance.
> > - SMALLER FOOTPRINT THAN RHEEM for tight areas.
> > - MORE EFFICIENT HEAT TRANSFER THAN RHEEM .. Still cools @ 125 deg.
>
> Does that mean thinner tubing?
>
> > - HEAVY GAUGE PVC-COATED GRILL GUARD
> > - GALVANIZED STEEL BASE
>
> You can get ten years on Rheem.
ALL Rheem equipment 12 SEER and up factory warrenty is;
1 year parts/labor
5 years on ALL parts
10 years on the compressors
> ALL Rheem's have Copeland Scroll's.
> Rheem is good solid equipment at a reasonable price.
> Lennox isn't something I'd brag about. They nail you on parts. Armstrong
> like that?
The only Armstrong equipment I have run across is what was installed by
jacklegg hacks in "spec" houses because *nobody* else would sell them
equipment.