AC compressor: copper pipe instead of fuses!
kjpro
If,
1.) the breaker is the right rating for the unit.
and
2.) the wire is rated for the amp. of the breaker
this would be OK.
BUT, its never a good practice to replace fuses with copper tubing.
I personally would have replaced them with the correct rating of fuse.
But, then again this is no different than a non-fused disc't.
kjpro
p.s. Most of the time when fuses gets replaced with something other than a
fuse, there's a problem elsewhere.
"Mary Ryan" <Mary...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e573e214.0303...@posting.google.com...
> I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
> inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
> conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
> with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
> make the necessary repairs.
>
> When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
> said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
> copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
> fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
> pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
>
> I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
> there, he was an electrical engineer. I also know he had the furnace
> and CAC replaced about four years ago. I don't know the name of the
> HVAC contractor, I'm not planning to sue anybody, so these are really
> just rhetorical questions.
>
> Shouldn't the contractor have noticed the lack of fuses when he
> replaced the compressor? Obviously he didn't replace the wire; the
> fabric-covered wire had to be more than four years old, it was
> probably as old as the house (33 years).
>
> Is that situation (copper pipe instead of fuses) as dangerous as it
> sounds to a layman like me? There is a circuit breaker for the CAC in
> the breaker box inside the house.
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
> Mary
Tom Pendergast
> I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
> inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
> conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
> with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
> make the necessary repairs.
>
> When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
> said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
> copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
> fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
> pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
>
> I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
> there, he was an electrical engineer. I also know he had the furnace
> and CAC replaced about four years ago. I don't know the name of the
> HVAC contractor, I'm not planning to sue anybody, so these are really
> just rhetorical questions.
>
> Shouldn't the contractor have noticed the lack of fuses when he
> replaced the compressor? Obviously he didn't replace the wire; the
> fabric-covered wire had to be more than four years old, it was
> probably as old as the house (33 years).
>
> Is that situation (copper pipe instead of fuses) as dangerous as it
> sounds to a layman like me? There is a circuit breaker for the CAC in
> the breaker box inside the house.
Not a problem, as long as the breakers in the box and the wire
were sized right. It sounds like somebody had an extra safety
disconnect switch laying around that was actually an "outside
fuse box" as you correctly called it. It would have been critical
to have real, proper fuses (cartridge fuses, the same shape as a
small chunk of copper tubing <g>) in there *if* the wire wasn't
fused back at the breaker box. Two fuses in the safety disconnect
would have offered no more protection than the breakers.
Let's just hope your current electrician didn't just slack it
and install two fuses. In truth, you don't really want the
fuses in there, 'cause there's always a possibility only one
of them could blow, and do it before the breaker trips. The
breaker is built to kill both sides automatically. The
electrician should have bought you a nice, modern, non-fused
safety disconnect switch ($11-12, The Home Depot) and replaced
the old one.
TP
--
Nightmare of the 00's: Your daughter goes south for spring break,
and ends up being the star of the next "Girls Gone Wild" video.
BGBevill
present a major safey issue, but I probably wouldn't have left it that way.
Bobby
kjpro
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9344B26357...@130.133.1.4...
Most of the time only one blows...........so what??
And just what is the problem of one fuse blowing instead of two????
There's no problem here in a standard condensing unit.
You been sniffing the glue again TP??
Just go back to your PVC job......I'm sure it needs to be replaced by now.
kjpro
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote:
>> Not a problem, as long as the breakers in the box and the wire
>> were sized right. It sounds like somebody had an extra safety
>> disconnect switch laying around that was actually an "outside
>> fuse box" as you correctly called it. It would have been critical
>> to have real, proper fuses (cartridge fuses, the same shape as a
>> small chunk of copper tubing <g>) in there *if* the wire wasn't
>> fused back at the breaker box. Two fuses in the safety disconnect
>> would have offered no more protection than the breakers.
>> Let's just hope your current electrician didn't just slack it
>> and install two fuses. In truth, you don't really want the
>> fuses in there, 'cause there's always a possibility only one
>> of them could blow,
> Most of the time only one blows...........so what??
> And just what is the problem of one fuse blowing instead of two????
> There's no problem here in a standard condensing unit.
That the best you can do, moron? How about this, Einstein: One
fuse blows and you likely have 220 volts present at the "dead" side
of that fuse. For someone who is always whining like a fucking
baby about the stupid things "home moaners" are likely to do, you
sure seem to overlook the scenario of them opening the disconnect,
seeing a fried cartridge, and ass-u-ming that the whole circuit is
dead. If it's done -right-, both breakers trip in the main box if
anything goes bad.
> You been sniffing the glue again TP??
Better the Home Moaner should just reach in there and grab the
"blown" fuse, touch both sides of it, and maybe knock himself
somewhere into next week? Better yet, maybe he'll reach in with
both hands, and his widow can own you for the rest of your
miserable working life.
Go get your Wizard's Hat dry cleaned, 'cause you just plain
fuc*ed up on this one.
kjpro
Since when can you tell by looking at a FRN type fuse that it's blown??
NUMB-SKULL!!
DONE RIGHT would only consist of one breaker per cond unit, MORON. "Not both
breakers."
> > You been sniffing the glue again TP??
>
> Better the Home Moaner should just reach in there and grab the
> "blown" fuse, touch both sides of it, and maybe knock himself
> somewhere into next week? Better yet, maybe he'll reach in with
> both hands, and his widow can own you for the rest of your
> miserable working life.
Since when am I liable for some moron sticking his hands into a live panel??
So, an electrician would be liable for someone taking the cover off the
electric panel and grabbing the main lugs??
> Go get your Wizard's Hat dry cleaned, 'cause you just plain
> fuc*ed up on this one.
If in case you think your so smart because you wear such a hat you'ld better
check again. ENGINEER!
BZZZZZZZZZZ......WRONG again....
I didn't tell that numb skull to play with ELECTRIC!!
This is the exact reason why a HOME MOANER should keep his hands off of
things he knows nothing about.
p.s. "MOST" cheap disconnects have pull out blocks which contains the fuses,
So you have them in your hand to change "with no POWER."
Ever seen the DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE sign??? If you don't have a clue "don't
mess with it".
And you haven't a clue so SHUT THE F*CK UP!!
kjpro
p.s. Did you ever get PVC approved for venting a 80% furnace yet?? I'm still
waiting.
ftwhd
>I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
>inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
>conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
>with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
>make the necessary repairs.
>
>When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
>said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
>copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
>fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
>pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
>
>I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
>there, he was an electrical engineer.
Don't be so sure about the EE not putting copper in place of fuses.
You would be surprised what those educated engineer types do.
Ignore TP he is our resident pedophile. He don't know his head from a
hole in the ground when it comes to HVAC. Now if you have a question
about child porn, he's the man.
Mike
Shaun
"kjpro" <kjn...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:tnsea.8274$Ay2.199...@twister2.starband.net...
ftwhd
<kelly.pa...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>children, go stand in the corner for 10 minutes
>
>
If you put TP and a child in a corner together bad things will happen.
Mike
kjpro
:-)
kjpro
"Shaun" <kelly.pa...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Hqsea.4287$lQ4.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
kjpro
"ftwhd" <ft...@fuckoffspammers.com> wrote in message
news:qrkk7vs7ejln619qe...@4ax.com...
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
kjpro
Shaun
"ftwhd" <ft...@fuckoffspammers.com> wrote in message
news:qrkk7vs7ejln619qe...@4ax.com...
Tom Pendergast
> DONE RIGHT would only consist of one breaker per cond unit, MORON.
> "Not both breakers."
Are you really an idiot, or do you just play one on Usenet?
"both breakers", aka a ganged breaker for use on a 220 Volt
circuit. Hold on, just a second. Do you know a -fucking- -thing-
about electrical service or the NEC?
> Since when am I liable for some moron sticking his hands into a live
> panel??
You're responsible for wiring the safety disconnect switch with
an overcurent device that doesn't interrupt both sides of the
220 line when there is an overcurrent situation.
> So, an electrician would be liable for someone taking the
> cover off the electric panel and grabbing the main lugs??
Never said that, asshole. Stop putting words into my mouth.
> This is the exact reason why a HOME MOANER should keep his hands off
> of things he knows nothing about.
The root of your entire mission in life, eh?
> p.s. "MOST" cheap disconnects have pull out blocks which contains the
> fuses, So you have them in your hand to change "with no POWER."
Yes, oh loser wizard. And they're designed to protect from the
dead end of the two wires all the way out to the equipment that
you're working on. The key here, oh incredibly stupid one, is
that they break both sides of the circuit automatically and
simultaneously.
> Ever seen the DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE sign??? If you don't have a clue
> "don't mess with it".
Tell it to the jury, moron. You half assed the safety disconnect,
and Harry Home Moaner grabbed ahold of 220 as the results of your
stupidity. You might as well just quit now and go (back?) on
welfare, loser. 'else you'll be sending your paychecks to Harry's
survivors for the rest of your miserable life.
> And you haven't a clue so SHUT THE F*CK UP!!
BWA HA HAHAAA HAAA! Loser.
kjpro
> "kjpro" <kjn...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > DONE RIGHT would only consist of one breaker per cond unit, MORON.
> > "Not both breakers."
>
> Are you really an idiot, or do you just play one on Usenet?
> "both breakers", aka a ganged breaker for use on a 220 Volt
> circuit.
Yes, a 220v breaker is assumed to be a breaker in which passes both "HOTS"
Never to be assumed as "both breakers" maybe "BOTH SIDES"
Normally a 220v breaker has ONE trip lever not two.
> > Since when am I liable for some moron sticking his hands into a live
> > panel??
>
> You're responsible for wiring the safety disconnect switch with
> an overcurent device that doesn't interrupt both sides of the
> 220 line when there is an overcurrent situation.
Sorry MORON, but if it's to code and installed per specs. they lose not me.
> > So, an electrician would be liable for someone taking the
> > cover off the electric panel and grabbing the main lugs??
>
> Never said that, asshole. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Same thing as them grabbing the fuse MORON!
> > p.s. "MOST" cheap disconnects have pull out blocks which contains the
> > fuses, So you have them in your hand to change "with no POWER."
>
> Yes, oh loser wizard. And they're designed to protect from the
> dead end of the two wires all the way out to the equipment that
> you're working on. The key here, oh incredibly stupid one, is
> that they break both sides of the circuit automatically and
> simultaneously.
Wrong again. They are there per code to protect the TECH and if it has
fuses, then it has built in protection.
> > Ever seen the DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE sign??? If you don't have a clue
> > "don't mess with it".
>
> Tell it to the jury, moron. You half assed the safety disconnect,
Who said anything about half assing a disconnect??
You really need to start understanding what you read.
You really have no clue!!! You sound like a real *welfare* type of guy.
kjpro
p.s. Is PVC approved yet??? Still waiting.
Robert Thompson
out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
"BGBevill" <bgbe...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030320173216...@mb-mh.aol.com...
Tom Pendergast
> Mary...@hotmail.com (Mary Ryan) wrote:
>>I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
>>inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
>>conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
>>with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
>>make the necessary repairs.
>>
>>When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
>>said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
>>copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
>>fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
>>pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
>>
>>I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
>>there, he was an electrical engineer.
Mary: There's a fundamental safety issue here that's covered in
the NEC (National Eletrical Code) but don't expect these HVAC
"perfessionals" to undestand it, it's way beyond the average IQ
level in these parts.
Fundamental safety issue: If you blow a 110 Volt breaker or fuse,
you can stick your hand on the "cold" side of the overcurrent device
(fuse or breaker) and be standing on wet earth in your bare feet,
and -nothing- wrong will happen to you. The cold side ("Neuteral")
is at the same potential as ground, there is no voltage available
there to shock you.
With a 220 Volt line, there is a breaker/fuse in each leg of the
circuit, and the legs meet in the middle, at the load. Safety
and the NEC dictate that both overcurrent devices must open
automatically if there is an overcurrent situation, that's why
the 220 Volt breakers you see in your box are "ganged" together.
The situation being discussed here would have only one of the
fuses opening if there were a problem, and the result is that
what would normally be the "cold" side of the circuit would have
220 Volts sitting there, ready to deliver a fatal shock if you
touch it under the right circumstances. Sooo...
In this case, it would be safer to have the pipes. They act as if
they wee just wire, they will never open up befoe the circuit
breakers trip. If you get an overcurrent situation (something that
will "blow the breaker" for the idiots like Mike out there) then the
problem will indeed blow the double poled breaker, not -one- of
the non-ganged fuses, leaving 220 Volts available at the "cold" end
of the blown fuse.
You might want to stop reading now, Mary. It's abou to get a
little ugly <g>...
> Don't be so sure about the EE not putting copper in place of fuses.
> You would be surprised what those educated engineer types do.
Mike, you wouldn't know a thing about this situation if it fell
on you. The engineer turned two potentially deadly fuses into
mere pieces of conductive material ("wire" you idiot.)
> Ignore TP he is our resident pedophile. He don't know his head from a
> hole in the ground when it comes to HVAC. Now if you have a question
> about child porn, he's the man.
That's all you have, huh loser? Can't argue the point, assault
the messenger.
Crawl back in your pathetic hole and come back when we're talkng
about something you understand.
TP
kjpro
kjpro
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61tea.99046$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
Tom Pendergast
> I think its a major safety issue if someone opens that box expecting
> to pull out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
Do you always assume that somebody would just reach into a box
and grab something without looking?
Robert Thompson
that would open up main panels with a penny while they were live. Then
start pointing stuff out to people he was talking with. Can't remember the
type of panel.. but it was like a 1200 amp main or something. really big
pieces of copper cylinders in that one. Well I think it was copper. I
decided to move to the next state when he did that.
"ftwhd" <ft...@fuckoffspammers.com> wrote in message
news:e4kk7v8v923arb7rj...@4ax.com...
kjpro
> "Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think its a major safety issue if someone opens that box expecting
> > to pull out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
>
> Do you always assume that somebody would just reach into a box
> and grab something without looking?
You have!!!!
You said the customer is stupid enough to stick their hands into the
disconnect only to find voltage if one fuse is blown.
You can't even remember what you said.
Are the drugs kicking in yet??? TP
kjpro
Norm C.
something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about some
common sense.
Norm C
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61tea.99046$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote...
>> "Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > I think its a major safety issue if someone opens that box expecting
>> > to pull out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
>> Do you always assume that somebody would just reach into a box
>> and grab something without looking?
> You have!!!!
> You said the customer is stupid enough to stick their hands into the
> disconnect only to find voltage if one fuse is blown.
Never said that at all, loser. Again, your overactive imagination
is getting the best of you. I said the customer might reach in
and grab what they believe to be a blown fuse, I never said they
would rech in and touch a piece of copper pipe stuck into the fuse
holder.
> You can't even remember what you said.
You can't argue your moronic, wrong, idiotic case, can you loser?
> Are the drugs kicking in yet??? TP
This is obviously the newest fantasy about me? Run with it,
asshole. I go to sleep knowing that the talk of drugs, pedophile,
and whatever else you decide to make up about me are just a sick
fantasy. You go to sleep knowing you're a stupid redneck loser.
TP
profft
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61tea.99046$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
pull
> out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
>
Not very likely, the pieces of copper are put into the pullout just as if
they were fuses, local code says under what circumstance[if any] non-fused
disconnects may be used. Usually it's reserved for Air Handlers sinse
they're usually fused internally.
Tom Pendergast
> If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
> something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
> some common sense.
Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
one of these days. I SAID someone might see a fried fuse and think
they could grab the load side of it and pull it out, expecting
there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
prohibited by the NEC. You're not allowed (intentionaly or via an
overcurrent device) to open up only one leg of a 220 circuit and
leave the other hot. Your "common sense" could get somebody killed.
profft
to find both fuses blown but not unheard of either. Tommy is way off the
mark on there being 240v if only one fuse is blown, unless he's talking
3phase 480v with 2 fuses blown, but that would get you 277v and not 240v but
I seriously doubt he was talking about that.
"kjpro" <kjn...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:tnsea.8274$Ay2.199...@twister2.starband.net...
>
profft
"Shaun" <kelly.pa...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Hqsea.4287$lQ4.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
kjpro
> "Norm C." <ncam...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
> > something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
> > some common sense.
>
> Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
> one of these days. I SAID someone might see a fried fuse
Here again......how can you tell that a frn fuse is blown by looking at
it??? MORON
> and think
> they could grab the load side of it and pull it out, expecting
> there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
Sticking their hands where they shouldn't cuz they are stupid. Use the fuse
pullers and the voltage present doesn't matter.
>
> Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
> prohibited by the NEC.
You want to break codes by venting with PVC
kjpro
p.s. Is PVC approved yet TP??
kjpro
the disconnect. As there would only be one 120v leg still hot at the load
side.
kjpro
"profft" <f.ta...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:XAtea.67966$iq1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
stans news
Tom Pendergast
> It's best not to bait Tommyboy,
Can't argue the point, so just talk down to the messenger, huh?
Loser.
> and you are quite correct it's very
> uncommon to find both fuses blown but not unheard of either.
It's just short of impossible. That would mean they were
manufactured to the exact same tolerance. The weakest link
will always go first. And if one of the fuses blows before
the ganged breaker trips...
> Tommy is
> way off the mark on there being 240v if only one fuse is blown, unless
> he's talking 3phase 480v with 2 fuses blown, but that would get you
> 277v and not 240v but I seriously doubt he was talking about that.
And just what the hell are -you- talking about? You might want
to consider a high school course like Electricity 101 if you don't
hee how two fuses in series with one open will give you an open
circuit with something close to the full supply voltage available
at those two points (supply voltage - voltage drop across the
load). And being that a compressor has a high current draw, that
would make it a relatively low impedence/resistance, so you would
have a relatively small voltage drop there. Soooooo...
If you reach into that box and touch the "dead" end of the blown
fuse in question, and your other hand happens to have a path to
ground: For the last few milliseconds of your life, you will have
a couple hundred volt source with the potential for supplying
30 Amps (remember, the ganged breaker hasn't tripped) frying your
sorry ass while you take the express lane to your eternity of
choice. Bon voyage.
kjpro
Both legs are only going to be 120v legs still. TP
If your implying that because one blows the other one goes to a high voltage
YOUR WRONG AGAIN.
Go take some more drugs. The ones you took earlier are wearing thin.
kjpro
p.s. Is PVC approved yet?? Still waiting.
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>Since when can you tell by looking at a FRN type fuse that it's blown??
The smile.
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
BGBevill
Normally, you have to either pull something out or remove the power in some way
to get to the fuses. Many are designed so that the fuses come out with the
pull-out to disconnect the power, but some are designed so that the pull-out
has to be removed to get at the fuses. So, either way, you'd have to be trying
to touch them awful hard to get hurt.
BGBevill
>
>> It's best not to bait Tommyboy,
>
> Can't argue the point, so just talk down to the messenger, huh?
> Loser.
>
>> and you are quite correct it's very
>> uncommon to find both fuses blown but not unheard of either.
>
> It's just short of impossible. That would mean they were
> manufactured to the exact same tolerance. The weakest link
> will always go first. And if one of the fuses blows before
> the ganged breaker trips...
Might be just short of impossible in your world, but out in the real world we
see it often. Not everytime, but lots more often than you imply.
Noon-Air
Actually on 240V single phase, you will have two hot legs that are 120V to
*ground/neutral* and 240V between the 2 hot legs.
(did I say that right?)
Oscar_lives
Oh, but their little hands make him look so big!!!
ftwhd
>>"profft" <f.ta...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It's best not to bait Tommyboy,
>>
>> Can't argue the point, so just talk down to the pervert, huh?
>> Loser.
>>
>>> and you are quite correct it's very
>>> uncommon to find both fuses blown but not unheard of either.
>>
>> It's just short of impossible. That would mean they were
>> manufactured to the exact same tolerance. The weakest link
>> will always go first. And if one of the fuses blows before
>> the ganged breaker trips...
>
Chester, you ARE the weakest link.
>Might be just short of impossible in your world, but out in the real world we
>see it often. Not everytime, but lots more often than you imply.
>
Do you think this pervert is part of little Bush's shock and awe
campaign? I for one am shocked at his stupidity and awed by his
ignorance.
Mike
kjpro
"Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h62dnRZDb77...@comcast.com...
Agreed, that's what I was implying. How does he get higher voltage just
cause one fuse blows?
kjpro
Greg O
> Mary...@hotmail.com (Mary Ryan) wrote:
>
> > I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
> > inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
> > conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
> > with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
> > make the necessary repairs.
> >
> > When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
> > said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
> > copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
> > fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
> > pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
> >
> > I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
> > there, he was an electrical engineer. I also know he had the furnace
> > and CAC replaced about four years ago. I don't know the name of the
> > HVAC contractor, I'm not planning to sue anybody, so these are really
> > just rhetorical questions.
> >
> > Shouldn't the contractor have noticed the lack of fuses when he
> > replaced the compressor? Obviously he didn't replace the wire; the
> > fabric-covered wire had to be more than four years old, it was
> > probably as old as the house (33 years).
> >
> > Is that situation (copper pipe instead of fuses) as dangerous as it
> > sounds to a layman like me? There is a circuit breaker for the CAC in
> > the breaker box inside the house.
>
> were sized right. It sounds like somebody had an extra safety
> disconnect switch laying around that was actually an "outside
> fuse box" as you correctly called it. It would have been critical
> to have real, proper fuses (cartridge fuses, the same shape as a
> small chunk of copper tubing <g>) in there *if* the wire wasn't
> fused back at the breaker box. Two fuses in the safety disconnect
> would have offered no more protection than the breakers.
>
> Let's just hope your current electrician didn't just slack it
> and install two fuses. In truth, you don't really want the
> fuses in there, 'cause there's always a possibility only one
> breaker is built to kill both sides automatically. The
> electrician should have bought you a nice, modern, non-fused
> safety disconnect switch ($11-12, The Home Depot) and replaced
> the old one.
>
>
> TP
Geez! How ironic!!
We have a twit that uses PVC pipe to vent a standard gas water heater
arguing about the safety of replacing fuses in a disconnect with copper
pipe!!
Pretty much wraps up the discussion for me!
LOL!
Greg
Tom Gauldin
compressor, not 220vac. In any responsibly wired system, the legs are
mechanically tied together at the breaker (double pole breaker) so that one
tripping mechanically turns off both legs at the same time.
Outside of that, I completely agree that the copper pipe busses in the
outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect. Personally, I'd prefer it that way
on my own installation, since I want both legs tied together at the breaker
box and only want to have to go to one place to see that there's been a
fault.
--
Tom Gauldin, Las Vegas NV
NEW EMAIL tgau...@lvcm.com
NEW PHONE (702) 263-8804 voice/fax
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9344B8A46B9...@130.133.1.4...
> "kjpro" <kjn...@starband.net> wrote:
> > "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote:
>
> >> Not a problem, as long as the breakers in the box and the wire
> >> were sized right. It sounds like somebody had an extra safety
> >> disconnect switch laying around that was actually an "outside
> >> fuse box" as you correctly called it. It would have been critical
> >> to have real, proper fuses (cartridge fuses, the same shape as a
> >> small chunk of copper tubing <g>) in there *if* the wire wasn't
> >> fused back at the breaker box. Two fuses in the safety disconnect
> >> would have offered no more protection than the breakers.
>
> >> Let's just hope your current electrician didn't just slack it
> >> and install two fuses. In truth, you don't really want the
> >> fuses in there, 'cause there's always a possibility only one
> >> of them could blow,
>
> > Most of the time only one blows...........so what??
> > And just what is the problem of one fuse blowing instead of two????
> > There's no problem here in a standard condensing unit.
>
> That the best you can do, moron? How about this, Einstein: One
> fuse blows and you likely have 220 volts present at the "dead" side
> of that fuse. For someone who is always whining like a fucking
> baby about the stupid things "home moaners" are likely to do, you
> sure seem to overlook the scenario of them opening the disconnect,
> seeing a fried cartridge, and ass-u-ming that the whole circuit is
> dead. If it's done -right-, both breakers trip in the main box if
> anything goes bad.
>
> > You been sniffing the glue again TP??
>
> Better the Home Moaner should just reach in there and grab the
> "blown" fuse, touch both sides of it, and maybe knock himself
> somewhere into next week? Better yet, maybe he'll reach in with
> both hands, and his widow can own you for the rest of your
> miserable working life.
>
> Go get your Wizard's Hat dry cleaned, 'cause you just plain
> fuc*ed up on this one.
>
>
Greg O
>
> Crawl back in your pathetic hole and come back when we're talkng
> about something you understand.
>
>
> TP
Like venting water heaters??
Greg
profft
"Greg O" <goo19...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:13bdebd3384beb6d...@news.teranews.com...
>
> Like venting water heaters??
> Greg
>
kjpro
Nope it's going to be pretty hot once his "TP" house catches on fire.
:-)
kjpro
Tom Pendergast
> Tom, you're partially right. If one leg is blown, you'd have 120vac
> at the compressor, not 220vac. In any responsibly wired system, the
> legs are mechanically tied together at the breaker (double pole
> breaker) so that one tripping mechanically turns off both legs at the
> same time.
Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
compressor itself.
I don't know, perhaps I was confusing the local "perfessionals"
by using the numbers 110 and 220 instead of 120 and 240, but
that's the way most people refer to them, at least in these parts.
From the style and age of this disconnect box, I'm betting that
it's the type with a big old on-off lever on one side, and it has
two fuse holders inside, period. There's no mechanism in there
that would force you to pull both fuses at once, like a true
"safety disconnect" would.
> Outside of that, I completely agree that the copper pipe busses in the
> outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
> disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect.
Exactly. Finally, somebody on here with some sense. Thank you.
> Personally, I'd prefer it
> that way on my own installation, since I want both legs tied together
> at the breaker box and only want to have to go to one place to see
> that there's been a fault.
Again, that's the only logical way to do it. You put a ganged
double breaker in the main box, and your service disconnect has
nothing to do with overcurrent. It's a place to pull the plug,
period.
BGBevill
>> outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
>> disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect.
>
> Exactly. Finally, somebody on here with some sense. Thank you.
My gosh TP, you change your mind so much I can't keep track anymore...
Robert Thompson
Alot of people do things automatically. And if it is someone not quite
experienced getting instructions from a newsgroup or a friend or whatever,
they may not know what they are doing til its too late.
I mean, I've heard of people doing alot of stupid things.
I even heard there was a guy that put a pvc pipe on their 80% AFUE water
heater.
Robert
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9344CAE2DF9...@130.133.1.4...
kjpro
ROTFLMAO!!
The key board is soaked again. "tears of laughter" :-)
kjpro
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8Hwea.99280$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
Robert Thompson
they just placed the copper pipe where the fuses go. But someone can still
pull it out to disconnect power.
I can see where someone couldn't electricute themselves there. Thanks for
the explaination.
Robert
"BGBevill" <bgbe...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030320204449...@mb-ce.aol.com...
Robert Thompson
amperage, a short circuit or something. Wouldn't both
breaker/fuses/whatever see the sudden higher amperage at the same time?
If it was a quick amperage climb, I could see the weakest link going.
But if it was fast enough of a jump, wouldn't one circuit breaker have
enough time to go out before the 2nd circuit breaker saw the same amps?
AND, if I understand right, a fuse is a piece of metal that melts with too
much amperage right? so the 1/10th of a second it took to melt, would that
be enough time for the other device to see the same amperage?
"BGBevill" <bgbe...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030320204745...@mb-ce.aol.com...
GaryE
liability assuming the breaker is right.
I think you're doing someone a favour by taking out the fuses & putting in
copper if you know what your doing.
If your breaker is sized right for the "wire & the unit" then it wouldn't
surprise me if the engineer knew it.
I've got 2 fuse boxes for my A.C.'s & they've been copper for 15 years
ever since the first fuse blew.
I'll never do it on anybody elses unit though, I just sell them a
non-fused disconnect which is code approved in most places
& virtually the same thing.
>
--
Gary Edelman
Leave off A to reply by email : gar...@gte.net
When you know it can always be worse, it never seems that bad.
When you appreciate what you have, you have a lot more.
CBHvac
my
GAWD!
Excellent.
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8Hwea.99280$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
CBHvac
> "Norm C." <ncam...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
> > something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
> > some common sense.
>
> Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
> they could grab the load side of it and pull it out, expecting
> there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
Well...for starters, shows what you know...if they grab a fuse, they get
110-120VAC...not 220..
Thats if its good, if the powers applied, and IF someone is stupid enough to
go grabbing fuses to begin with.
>
> Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
> prohibited by the NEC. You're not allowed (intentionaly or via an
> overcurrent device) to open up only one leg of a 220 circuit and
> leave the other hot. Your "common sense" could get somebody killed.
CBHvac
> Mary...@hotmail.com (Mary Ryan) wrote:
>
> > I am selling a house as executor of an estate. The buyer's home
> > inspector noted that the wire feed from the house to the air
> > conditioner compressor was frayed (old fabric-covered wiring), along
> > with a few other minor electrical problems. I hired an electrician to
> > make the necessary repairs.
> >
> > When the electrician was replacing the frayed wire, he came inside and
> > said to me, "I found another problem". He had two short pieces of
> > copper plumbing pipe in his hand. He said someone had replaced the
> > fuses in the compressor's outside fuse box with these pieces of copper
> > pipe. I told him to make it right, and bring everything up to code.
> >
> > I am pretty certain the homeowner did not put those pieces of pipe in
> > there, he was an electrical engineer. I also know he had the furnace
> > and CAC replaced about four years ago. I don't know the name of the
> > HVAC contractor, I'm not planning to sue anybody, so these are really
> > just rhetorical questions.
> >
> > Shouldn't the contractor have noticed the lack of fuses when he
> > replaced the compressor? Obviously he didn't replace the wire; the
> > fabric-covered wire had to be more than four years old, it was
> > probably as old as the house (33 years).
> >
> > Is that situation (copper pipe instead of fuses) as dangerous as it
> > sounds to a layman like me? There is a circuit breaker for the CAC in
> > the breaker box inside the house.
>
> were sized right. It sounds like somebody had an extra safety
> disconnect switch laying around that was actually an "outside
> fuse box" as you correctly called it. It would have been critical
> to have real, proper fuses (cartridge fuses, the same shape as a
> small chunk of copper tubing <g>) in there *if* the wire wasn't
> fused back at the breaker box. Two fuses in the safety disconnect
> would have offered no more protection than the breakers.
>
Unless its prohibited, as it is here, by code. If its a fused box, its got
to have fuses in it...if the unit, AS MANY DO, list a fused overcurrent
protection, it better be there..
You need to fucking learn that you dont know it all before you kill
someone...
PVC, might work in your crack pipe, but its obvious as hell the outgassing
from your not to code jackleg repair is geting to you.
> Let's just hope your current electrician didn't just slack it
> and install two fuses. In truth, you don't really want the
> fuses in there, 'cause there's always a possibility only one
> of them could blow, and do it before the breaker trips. The
> breaker is built to kill both sides automatically. The
> electrician should have bought you a nice, modern, non-fused
> safety disconnect switch ($11-12, The Home Depot) and replaced
> the old one.
>
>
OzTech
Thought he just lived in a TeePee
OzTech
"kjpro" <kjn...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:tEvea.8328$ML5.200...@twister2.starband.net...
profft
"Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8Hwea.99280$r26....@news1.central.cox.net...
>
> Alot of people do things automatically. And if it is someone not quite
> experienced getting instructions from a newsgroup or a friend or whatever,
> they may not know what they are doing til its too late.
>
> I mean, I've heard of people doing alot of stupid things.
> I even heard there was a guy that put a pvc pipe on their 80% AFUE water
> heater.
>
> Robert
>
Tom Pendergast
> I don't know that much about electricity, but if you had a sudden
> surge of amperage, a short circuit or something. Wouldn't both
> breaker/fuses/whatever see the sudden higher amperage at the same
> time?
Yes they would.
> If it was a quick amperage climb, I could see the weakest link going.
> But if it was fast enough of a jump, wouldn't one circuit breaker have
> enough time to go out before the 2nd circuit breaker saw the same
> amps?
Thats possible, but...
> AND, if I understand right, a fuse is a piece of metal that melts with
> too much amperage right? so the 1/10th of a second it took to melt,
> would that be enough time for the other device to see the same
> amperage?
The key is that the tolerance of that "30A" fuse is not exact. One
is going to be manufactured at (these are examples, of course) 29.2A
and the one right next to it might blow at 30.5A So one is going to
"see it" and blow, very likely before it climbs high enough to burn
the other one. aka: The Weakest Link.
Tom Pendergast
> The only thing wrong with putting in the copper instead of a fuse is
> the liability assuming the breaker is right.
> I think you're doing someone a favour by taking out the fuses &
> putting in copper if you know what your doing.
> If your breaker is sized right for the "wire & the unit" then it
> wouldn't surprise me if the engineer knew it.
Exactly. But you don't dare admit that in these parts! lol
> I've got 2 fuse boxes for my A.C.'s & they've been copper for
> 15 years ever since the first fuse blew.
> I'll never do it on anybody elses unit though, I just sell them a
> non-fused disconnect which is code approved in most places
> & virtually the same thing.
Exactly. Again. Home Depot, made by GE, 10.99. Open the lid
and pull the T-handle that breaks the circuit, let the breakers
in the panel do their job.
Noon-Air
"Tom Gauldin" <tgau...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:YWuea.1764$Bf5...@news1.west.cox.net...
> Tom, you're partially right. If one leg is blown, you'd have 120vac at
the
> compressor, not 220vac. In any responsibly wired system, the legs are
> mechanically tied together at the breaker (double pole breaker) so that
one
> tripping mechanically turns off both legs at the same time.
>
> Outside of that, I completely agree that the copper pipe busses in the
> outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
> disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect. Personally, I'd prefer it that
way
> on my own installation, since I want both legs tied together at the
breaker
> box and only want to have to go to one place to see that there's been a
> fault.
My personal preference is to use switched disconnects where the switch is
replaced with the correct size breaker for the unit, thereby making the
breaker/fuses in the main box a moot point
Noon-Air
"BGBevill" <bgbe...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> >> Outside of that, I completely agree that the copper pipe busses in the
> >> outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
> >> disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect.
> >
> > Exactly. Finally, somebody on here with some sense. Thank you.
>
> My gosh TP, you change your mind so much I can't keep track anymore...
I think I found his marbles.....all 3 of them
joeschmoe
and be thought a fool than to open it
and remove all doubt !!!
Mark Twain
Robert Thompson
from overheating and causing a fire? If one goes off and 29.2 A and another
at 30.1 A will it matter if whatever short circuits and goes from 25A to
150 A in a 1/10th of a second? Most equipment may not fail in this mode.
But could one of the pieces every so often shortcircuit bad enough?
Now I'm not supporting or not supporting having multiple protection devices
in a row. Everything should be done to Code, in this case NEC. The codes
are there to protect.
"Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93454D088C3...@130.133.1.4...
lp13-30
unit, the breaker in the main panel must be sized according to the size
of the wire hooked to it, or at least not oversized. 30 amp on #6 or 8,
fine. 50 amp on #12, big no-no.
Noon-Air
"lp13-30" <LP1...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15741-3E...@storefull-2378.public.lawson.webtv.net...
yup....but it still really scares me when I find a condenser wired with 12/2
romex from the line side of an air handler with 15KW electric heat and no
thermal protection between the AHU and the condenser. I *WILL NOT* leave a
situation like that....I DO correct it...even if I have to do it on my dime.
I cannot and will not be held liable(I was the last one to work on it so its
my fault) for a house burning down from the original installers stupidity.
David Lesher
>But how FAST does a breaker trip? Isn't the breaker there to keep the wire
>from overheating and causing a fire? If one goes off and 29.2 A and another
>at 30.1 A will it matter if whatever short circuits and goes from 25A to
>150 A in a 1/10th of a second? Most equipment may not fail in this mode.
>But could one of the pieces every so often shortcircuit bad enough?
That Depends [tm]
Breakers, like fuses, have curves. At 120% rated current, it takes
X seconds. At 200% it takes Y seconds, and so forth. And that's
steady-state. At 500% rated, you hope it's damn fast.
On motor starting, you want it to NOT trip on the starting surge,
but DO trip on locked rotor, etc. But wait, locked rotor is an
extended case of starting, right? (Or starting a shorter case of...)
On electronics, you often have fast-blow fuses to attempt to save
the semiconductors.
Sometimes you can not get all you want in one fuse. The polepig
feeding my house and others nearby has two fuses in series on the
primary. I asked the foreman why. The 10A one is for moderate
overloads, representing the safe load of the transformer. The 15A
one is an expensive fast-blow in case the primaries are struck by
lightning/ higher voltage falls onto them, etc.
Gary R. Lloyd
<rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I think its a major safety issue if someone opens that box expecting to pull
>out a fuse and touches a piece of copper pipe instead.
If the box is disconnected, it doesn't matter. If the box is not
disconnected, pulling a fuse by hand is only marginally safer than
pulling a copper tube. If the box is not disconnected, he should not
be reaching in there.
Gary
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com
http://www.techmethod.co.uk
http://www.techmethod.com/forums
Gary R. Lloyd
>"profft" <f.ta...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> It's best not to bait Tommyboy,
>
> Can't argue the point, so just talk down to the messenger, huh?
> Loser.
>
>> and you are quite correct it's very
>> uncommon to find both fuses blown but not unheard of either.
>
> It's just short of impossible. That would mean they were
> manufactured to the exact same tolerance. The weakest link
> will always go first. And if one of the fuses blows before
> the ganged breaker trips...
A short to ground can take out both fuses, and often does.
CBHvac
"joeschmoe" <"xxxxxxxrdawson"@insightbbxxxxxx.comxxxxx(remove the x's)>
wrote in message news:nqFea.193740$sf5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
CBHvac
> "Tom Gauldin" <tgau...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom, you're partially right. If one leg is blown, you'd have 120vac
> > at the compressor, not 220vac. In any responsibly wired system, the
> > legs are mechanically tied together at the breaker (double pole
> > breaker) so that one tripping mechanically turns off both legs at the
> > same time.
>
> Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
> twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
> unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
> the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
> there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
> compressor itself.
>
BULLSHIT
TURTLE
> "Robert Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know that much about electricity, but if you had a sudden
> > surge of amperage, a short circuit or something. Wouldn't both
> > breaker/fuses/whatever see the sudden higher amperage at the same
> > time?
>
> Yes they would.
>
> > If it was a quick amperage climb, I could see the weakest link going.
> > But if it was fast enough of a jump, wouldn't one circuit breaker have
> > enough time to go out before the 2nd circuit breaker saw the same
> > amps?
>
> Thats possible, but...
>
> > AND, if I understand right, a fuse is a piece of metal that melts with
> > too much amperage right? so the 1/10th of a second it took to melt,
> > would that be enough time for the other device to see the same
> > amperage?
>
> The key is that the tolerance of that "30A" fuse is not exact. One
> is going to be manufactured at (these are examples, of course) 29.2A
> and the one right next to it might blow at 30.5A So one is going to
> "see it" and blow, very likely before it climbs high enough to burn
> the other one. aka: The Weakest Link.
>
> TP
This is Turtle.
TP , All that your explaining here is in direct conflicking words with the
NEC code rullings. A electric service to any 220 volt equipment must have a
ajointing double breaker to supply sevice to it. Each of the double breakes
will read the amps and know when to throw both circutes at one time. They
can not throw one and not the other. they are required by code to be tied
together and if one throws. the other will be thrown too.
What your explaining here is how to beak the NEC codes and burn your house
down. It you live alone go a head and burn your house down but if there is
any other people that may stay over nite at your house. Please don't burn
them up with you when your house burns.
TP, You need to start explaining thing that you know about and not the
things that will kill other people. TP you over your head here.
TURTLE
BGBevill
>news:20030320230507...@mb-fe.aol.com...
>> >> Outside of that, I completely agree that the copper pipe busses in the
>> >> outside box probably are OK and are just intended to make the fused
>> >> disconnect into an 'unfused' disconnect.
>> >
>> > Exactly. Finally, somebody on here with some sense. Thank you.
>>
>> My gosh TP, you change your mind so much I can't keep track anymore...
>
>I think I found his marbles.....all 3 of them
Three?? No way they all belong to him.
profft
"Gary R. Lloyd" <tme...@gatecom.com> wrote in message
news:3e7b456e....@news.gatecom.com...
Tom Gauldin
"CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
news:_UIea.255$NS3....@eagle.america.net...
> >
> > Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
> > twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
> > unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
> > the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
> > there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
> > compressor itself.
> >
>
>
>
> BULLSHIT
>
>
Nope, he's right, I believe. If the circuit through the compressor is
intact, there'd be 120vac from the "A" leg of the panel to the "top" of the
blown fuse and 120vac from the "B" leg traveling through the good fuse, down
through the compressor and back up to the "bottom" of the blown fuse.
Remember, the fuses are in series with the legs, so replacing the blow fuse
would reconnect the "top" and "bottom" of the broken leg to complete the
240vac circuit.
However, it is only at the fuse that you could get 240vac (between the top
and bottom) while the fuse of the one leg is blown. That means any mucking
around at the compressor or relays could very well expose you to a
120vac-to-ground risk from the unblown leg. . . but NOT 240vac. Still,
120vac has been enough to curl my own toenails, and I recommend against it.
<grin>
--
Tom Gauldin
news:twvea.68348$iq1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> "Greg O" <goo19...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:13bdebd3384beb6d...@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > Like venting water heaters??
> > Greg
I don't mean for this to be controversial, but I lived in a house for 15
years with water heaters I'd installed with no vent. They were electric.
CBHvac
>
>
> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
> news:_UIea.255$NS3....@eagle.america.net...
> > >
> > > Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
> > > twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
> > > unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
> > > the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
> > > there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
> > > compressor itself.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > BULLSHIT
> >
> >
>
> Nope, he's right, I believe. If the circuit through the compressor is
> intact, there'd be 120vac from the "A" leg of the panel to the "top" of
the
> blown fuse and 120vac from the "B" leg traveling through the good fuse,
down
> through the compressor and back up to the "bottom" of the blown fuse.
> Remember, the fuses are in series with the legs, so replacing the blow
fuse
> would reconnect the "top" and "bottom" of the broken leg to complete the
> 240vac circuit.
>
no..you would still only have 120...since you kill the other leg, if you had
220 there, the compressor would be runnin..
you have to have two out of phase 120s...so...if you kill one...you still
only have 120..
You would STILL have 240 across the line side of the disconnect,, but.not at
the load side of the fuses..
it would be the one good leg, assuming of course that you have a SPST
contactor in there, and the straight through side is intact in the fuse
panel.
kjpro
We all are on differant pages here.....
He's saying if the contactor is energized the voltage accross the blown fuse
"top and bottom" would be 240v
kjpro
Tom Pendergast
> This is Turtle.
>
> TP , All that your explaining here is in direct conflicking words with
> the NEC code rullings.
That's absolute total BULLSHIT, and you know it. I've been
explaining it EXACTLY the same way you are about to in the next
paragraph.
> A electric service to any 220 volt equipment
> must have a ajointing double breaker to supply sevice to it.
I've been saying EXACTLY that, all along.
What is your major malfunction, you illiterate moron?
> Each of
> the double breakes will read the amps and know when to throw both
> circutes at one time. They can not throw one and not the other.
I've been saying EXACTLY that, all along.
What is your major malfunction, you illiterate moron?
> they
> are required by code to be tied together and if one throws. the other
> will be thrown too.
I've been saying EXACTLY that, all along.
What is your major malfunction, you illiterate moron?
> What your explaining here is how to beak the NEC codes and burn your
> house down. It you live alone go a head and burn your house down but
> if there is any other people that may stay over nite at your house.
> Please don't burn them up with you when your house burns.
Eat shit and die, moron. I thought you had a lick of decency
in you, but you're just like a few of these other roaring, flaming
asswipes. Or maybe you're just too stump dumb sto-o-o-o-o-pid
to comprehend when people say something in english.
> TP, You need to start explaining thing that you know about and not the
> things that will kill other people. TP you over your head here.
You need to stop getting hit in the head with so many trees.
Oops. Too late.
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
>> Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
>> twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
>> unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
>> the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
>> there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
>> compressor itself.
> BULLSHIT
Thank you for finally proving your total ignorance, beyond a
doubt. You should really consider Electrical Wiring 101 as
a night school course before you kill somebody with your lack
of knowledge.
Geez, this is pathetic. Will one of you other assholes send
this moron an e-mail and tell him he needs to shut his moron
mouth before he makes himself look any stupider?
TP
kjpro
> "Norm C." <ncam...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
> > something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
> > some common sense.
>
> Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
> one of these days. I SAID someone might see a fried fuse and think
> they could grab the load side of it and pull it out, expecting
> there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
>
> Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
> prohibited by the NEC.
So, where in the NEC code book does it state to use copper pipe?? And what's
the rateing of the pipe??
It's not UL listed either!!!
Not suposed to do it!! MORON!!
kjpro
Tom Pendergast
> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
(me)
>> > Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
>> > twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
>> > unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
>> > the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the
>> > circuit, there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across
>> > the compressor itself.
>> BULLSHIT
> Nope, he's right, I believe. If the circuit through the compressor is
> intact, there'd be 120vac from the "A" leg of the panel to the "top"
> of the blown fuse and 120vac from the "B" leg traveling through the
> good fuse, down through the compressor and back up to the "bottom" of
> the blown fuse.
EXACTLY. Electrical Current Flow, 101.
> Remember, the fuses are in series with the legs, so
> replacing the blow fuse would reconnect the "top" and "bottom" of the
> broken leg to complete the 240vac circuit.
YES YES YES! That's what I've been trying to explain to them
all along, that's why the NEC stipulates that a blown breaker in
this situation absolutely MUST disengage the -other- breaker
automatically.
> However, it is only at the fuse that you could get 240vac (between the
> top and bottom) while the fuse of the one leg is blown. That means
> any mucking around at the compressor or relays could very well expose
> you to a 120vac-to-ground risk from the unblown leg. . . but NOT
> 240vac.
Agreed, 100% I was trying to point out that we've all seen older
boxes that hold two fuses, and they have a big old lever switch
on one side and if you can have one fuse blow and the other
remain live, they don't meet NEC requirements as an overcurrent
protection device. They -work- as a safety disconnect, but
there's no reason a safety disconnect should -EVER- be fused,
there need to be two ganged breakers in the load center.
> Still, 120vac has been enough to curl my own toenails, and I
> recommend against it. <grin>
Thank you. Maybe the morons will believe you. And BTW, 120VAC
from fingertip to fingertip will make you assume room temperature
in most cases. After your fingers stop smouldering, of course.
TP
Bill
Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But how FAST does a breaker trip? Isn't the breaker there to keep the wire
> from overheating and causing a fire? If one goes off and 29.2 A and another
> at 30.1 A will it matter if whatever short circuits and goes from 25A to
> 150 A in a 1/10th of a second? Most equipment may not fail in this mode.
> But could one of the pieces every so often shortcircuit bad enough?
>
> Now I'm not supporting or not supporting having multiple protection devices
> in a row. Everything should be done to Code, in this case NEC. The codes
> are there to protect.
Fuses protect the equipment. Circuit breakers do not. Putting copper pipe
where fuses go is a major no-no. By the time the circuit breaker reacts the
motor has hit the damage curve.
It also just screams hack.
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Gauldin" <tgau...@lvcm.com> wrote...
>> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote...
>> > > Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten
>> > > slightly twisted, but you will have 110 available at either
>> > > end of the unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the
>> > > two ends of the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is
>> > > completing the circuit, there would be 220 there, minus the
>> > > voltage drop across the compressor itself.
>> > BULLSHIT
>> Nope, he's right, I believe. If the circuit through the compressor
>> is intact, there'd be 120vac from the "A" leg of the panel to the
>> "top" of the blown fuse and 120vac from the "B" leg traveling
>> through the good fuse, down through the compressor and back up to
>> the "bottom" of the blown fuse. Remember, the fuses are in series
>> with the legs, so replacing the blow fuse would reconnect the "top"
>> and "bottom" of the broken leg to complete the 240vac circuit.
> no..you would still only have 120...since you kill the other leg, if
> you had 220 there, the compressor would be runnin..
It would attempt to run for a few seconds while the current
surged through your body, completing the circuit, you FUCKING
MORON!
> you have to have two out of phase 120s...so...if you kill one...you
> still only have 120..
You're not "killing" anything, you FUCKING MORON The other 120
is still available right there at the hot end of the blown fuse.
jumper the hot end of the blown fuse to the load end of the blown
fuse, use a piece of 1/2 copper pipe, a good fuse, or your idiot
hand, I don't care, you FUCKING MORON, and the compressor will
run (assuming it is able to, of course.)
Keep making a fool of yourself, idiot. I love it.
kjpro
Bullshit, Nowhere in NEC code does it state that you can not use a fused
disconnect. GO READ THE FUCK BOOK MORON!!!!!!!!
kjpro
p.s. Did you are did you not "get PVC listed for use on 80% appliances yet"
I'm still waiting for the answer!
p.s.s. Did you just awake from the drug overdose???
Tom Pendergast
> "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote...
>> "Norm C." <ncam...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>> > If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
>> > something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
>> > some common sense.
>> Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
>> one of these days. I SAID someone might see a fried fuse and
>> think they could grab the load side of it and pull it out,
>> expecting there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
>> Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
>> prohibited by the NEC.
> So, where in the NEC code book does it state to use copper pipe?? And
> what's the rateing of the pipe??
You idiot. Read my lips: There are circuit breakers (ganged, if
wired to code) serving as the overcurrent device, they are in the
breaker box. The copper pipe is being used as -WIRE- you absolute
freaking moron.
And even though I know it will NEVER sink through your hard little
moron head, I'll tell you for the last time: It's actually SAFER
having the pipe in there than fuses. The pipe makes the circuit
breakers 100% responsible for overcurrent protection, if one goes,
both go automatically, there is no one dead/one live fuse situation
which leaveas a BIG potential safety hazard.
> It's not UL listed either!!!
> Not suposed to do it!! MORON!!
Keep digging the hole, moron.
And just FYI: Knowing what I do about wire, surface area, etc.
I will bet you your friggin' HOUSE against mine that a piece of
hard 1/2" copper water supply pipe will carry at least 5 times
more current than the solid piece of 10 guage wire that it is
replacing in this case. Probably more like 10 or 20, in fact.
The pipe is a short piece of very heavy WIRE, mo-ron! LOL
You know...-COPPER-! you friggin' idiot.
TP
Tom Pendergast
> r26....@news1.central.cox.net>, "Robert
> Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Fuses protect the equipment. Circuit breakers do not.
Ohhhh, that's -RICH-! Another moron steps forth to be counted.
>Putting copper
> pipe where fuses go is a major no-no.
If you're bypassing an overcurrent device, you are correct. In
this case, they were not. The equipment is/was protected (per
code) from overcurrent by two ganged breakers in the load center,
the original poster told us that.
> By the time the circuit breaker
> reacts the motor has hit the damage curve.
Oh, that is just so incredibly moronic. An Old Wive's Tale
meets the HVAC business. You are actually stupid enough to
believe that fuses and circuit breakers "react" different to
overcurrent? And the real sad part is that people actually
let you touch their wiring???
> It also just screams hack.
"Hack" is somebody working on people's electrical service (You
might want to hold up a mirror right about now) who have no
clue as to what they're doing.
kjpro
> "kjpro" <kjn...@starband.com> wrote:
> > "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote...
> >> "Norm C." <ncam...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> > If someone doesn't know any better than to just reach in and grab
> >> > something,they have no business opening the disconnect up!How about
> >> > some common sense.
>
> >> Never said that was the case. NEVER. Try reading for comprehension
> >> one of these days. I SAID someone might see a fried fuse and
> >> think they could grab the load side of it and pull it out,
> >> expecting there would be 0 Volts there, not 220.
>
> >> Face it, you're arguing against a fundamental safety issue that's
> >> prohibited by the NEC.
>
> > So, where in the NEC code book does it state to use copper pipe?? And
> > what's the rateing of the pipe??
>
> You idiot. Read my lips: There are circuit breakers (ganged, if
> wired to code) serving as the overcurrent device, they are in the
> breaker box. The copper pipe is being used as -WIRE- you absolute
> freaking moron.
NO SHIT!! Just when did they make copper pipe to be in a disconnect box
CODE???? SO, who's the MORON???
Copper pipe "not for use with electric.......period"
> And even though I know it will NEVER sink through your hard little
> moron head, I'll tell you for the last time: It's actually SAFER
> having the pipe in there than fuses.
NOT!!!!
> The pipe makes the circuit
> breakers 100% responsible for overcurrent protection, if one goes,
> both go automatically, there is no one dead/one live fuse situation
> which leaveas a BIG potential safety hazard.
NO SAFETY HAZARD.......they shouldn't be there if they don't know how to cut
the electric in the first place!!
I can't remember a disconnect that allows you to get to the fuses with-out
pulling the power first.
Either:
1.) their on the pull-out block.
2.) you pull the lever before you can open the box door.
>
> > It's not UL listed either!!!
>
> > Not suposed to do it!! MORON!!
>
> Keep digging the hole, moron.
Your digging the hole for your coffin. Better be getting it ready you'll
need it soon. For the PVC warranty is running thin.
> And just FYI: Knowing what I do about wire, surface area, etc.
> I will bet you your friggin' HOUSE against mine that a piece of
> hard 1/2" copper water supply pipe will carry at least 5 times
> more current than the solid piece of 10 guage wire that it is
> replacing in this case. Probably more like 10 or 20, in fact.
> The pipe is a short piece of very heavy WIRE, mo-ron! LOL
> You know...-COPPER-! you friggin' idiot.
YES, and where is it's listed???
Not in the code book!!!!! MORON.
But, then again, venting a 80% W/H with pvc isn't either.
kjpro
p.s. Still waiting for the answer on PVC code listing.
kjpro
> tsu...@columbus.rr.com (Bill) wrote:
> > r26....@news1.central.cox.net>, "Robert
> > Thompson" <rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Fuses protect the equipment. Circuit breakers do not.
>
> Ohhhh, that's -RICH-! Another moron steps forth to be counted.
>
> >Putting copper
> > pipe where fuses go is a major no-no.
>
> If you're bypassing an overcurrent device, you are correct. In
> this case, they were not. The equipment is/was protected (per
> code) from overcurrent by two ganged breakers in the load center,
> the original poster told us that.
He said there is a breaker in the main panel for the unit. But did not
specify that it was the correct size for the unit! "for protection"
MORON AGAIN!!
kjpro
p.s. still waiting for PVC to be listed in code book for 80% venting.
Oval
Why? You just buy a fuse and replace the bad fuse.
You don't use copper pipe to replace a fuse in a fusible disconnect.
The reason: Unforseen events. Someone could hit a telephone pole down
the road that surges your line, shoots that copper out of the
disconnect like a bullet and your hit in the ass taking a shower.
Lighting hits your house and your "ganged breaker" (I take it you
meant the 2-pole whatever amp size breaker in the main panel) doesnt
open but locks hot and sends that juice to your unit that catches on
fire and you die from either the mustard gas or the flames.
Theirs a reason why fusible disconnects are code for appliances now, so
people are just a little bit safer. Hope nothing happens where
someones insurance won't cover an Unforseen Event because they put a
piece of copper in place of a fuse.
I don't know...you can say it works?.....sure. Is it right, no.
But what the hell, as the old saying goes:
"I can't see it from my house"
In article <Xns9345F3EE77C...@130.133.1.4>, Tom Pendergast
TURTLE
This is Turtle.
WOW , did i blow your dress up with these words!
Tom take you your 1 -- Lexerpro 20 mg. and 1 -- 5 mg / 325 Percocet and call
me in the morning.
TURTLE
TURTLE
> "CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote:
> > "Tom Pendergast" <t...@icubed.com> wrote in message
>
> >> Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
> >> twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
> >> unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
> >> the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
> >> there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
> >> compressor itself.
>
> > BULLSHIT
>
> Thank you for finally proving your total ignorance, beyond a
> doubt. You should really consider Electrical Wiring 101 as
> a night school course before you kill somebody with your lack
> of knowledge.
>
> Geez, this is pathetic. Will one of you other assholes send
> this moron an e-mail and tell him he needs to shut his moron
> mouth before he makes himself look any stupider?
>
>
> TP
> --
This is Turtle.
Tom , i will send you a E-mail the first thing in the morn to tell you about
shutting your mouth before you become anymore Stupider. i will be happy to.
now tom , I like you to be around here for your becoming to be fun to play
with. I haven't had this much fun since Piano man was here. Keep the good
work up here Tommmmmy Boy.
TURTLE
Robert Thompson
Edition
11.7 Fuses.
Fuses are normally used in conjunction with disconnect switches. A dummy
fuse, copper slug, or length of wire should never be used as a fuse
substitute. Fuse and fuseholder maintenance is covered in Chapter 15.
"kjpro" <kjn...@starband.com> wrote in message
news:JtSea.8514$5C.208...@twister2.starband.net...
Don Ocean
The breakers are in the main service box. The point of the cutoff box is for
safe servicing of the equipment and to be pulled off during the winter months.
This is to prevent trying to start a cold oil sludged compressor. In days gone
by,
the compressors used to have crankcase heaters.. No longer the case.
In my jurisdiction if a fused cufoff box gets installed..The building official
will
make you replace it with a nonfused unit. Of course most of us remember when
each unit had the breakers as part of the equipment. Now it is possible that in
other jusrtisdictions that certain parts of the NEC and certain parts of the
inter-
national mechanical code are not in effect. Each jurisdiction has the option of
accepting or rejecting any or part of any of these codes. Or adding local codes
of their own. I understand that in Wyoming a fused cutoff box may be bussed
with solid copper as long as there is a main shutoff to that particular unit.
Thus, that would make the copper pipe legal in certain jurisdictions.
Vehrstehn?
Don Ocean
Oval wrote:
> Why? You just buy a fuse and replace the bad fuse.
>
> You don't use copper pipe to replace a fuse in a fusible disconnect.
Why not...If it is properly breakered at the main service?
>
> The reason: Unforseen events. Someone could hit a telephone pole down
No wonder your having problems..Ours are hooked up to the undergrond
elctric service.
And why on earth would anyone hook up to a telephone pole? Not many of them
around
anymore since they also went underground with telephone service.
>
> the road that surges your line, shoots that copper out of the
> disconnect like a bullet
Actuallyu, it melts and spatters all over the place.. Kind of
a fun thing to do when you are trying to impress an apprentice
on using safe practices. They never forget! ;-)
> and your hit in the ass taking a shower.
Why would your equipment be in the shower anyway.
>
>
> Lighting hits your house and your "ganged breaker" (I take it you
> meant the 2-pole whatever amp size breaker in the main panel) doesnt
> open but locks hot and sends that juice to your unit that catches on
> fire and you die from either the mustard gas or the flames.
With lightning it makes no difference, A billion or two volts goes where
it wants to and when it wants to..
>
>
> Theirs a reason why fusible disconnects are code for appliances now,
Not so in my jurisdiction..In fact its illegal and thats by NEC for our
equipment.
Your jurisdiction may not have accepted the NEC and has a local code
covering that.
> so
> people are just a little bit safer. Hope nothing happens where
> someones insurance won't cover an Unforseen Event because they put a
> piece of copper in place of a fuse.
Please look up the specs for a cutoff box. It must have a removeable
cartridge ...one that can be reversed for winter shutdown without
misplacing
the cartridge.Cannot have a lever unit!!
profft
have the corrective work done on their dime?
"Noon-Air" <noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6TCdnZePssf...@comcast.com...
>
> "lp13-30" <LP1...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:15741-3E...@storefull-2378.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > Regardless of what kind of disconnect, fuses, breaker etc is at the
> > unit, the breaker in the main panel must be sized according to the size
> > of the wire hooked to it, or at least not oversized. 30 amp on #6 or 8,
> > fine. 50 amp on #12, big no-no.
>
> yup....but it still really scares me when I find a condenser wired with
12/2
> romex from the line side of an air handler with 15KW electric heat and no
> thermal protection between the AHU and the condenser. I *WILL NOT* leave a
> situation like that....I DO correct it...even if I have to do it on my
dime.
> I cannot and will not be held liable(I was the last one to work on it so
its
> my fault) for a house burning down from the original installers
stupidity.
>
>
profft
"CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
news:_UIea.255$NS3....@eagle.america.net...
>
> >
> > Yes. And this has been kicked to death so it's gotten slightly
> > twisted, but you will have 110 available at either end of the
> > unblown fuse, referenced to ground. But, at the two ends of
> > the blown fuse, assuming the compressor is completing the circuit,
> > there would be 220 there, minus the voltage drop across the
> > compressor itself.
> >
>
>
>
> BULLSHIT
>
Excreatum, too bad it defies the known laws of physics.
profft
> Nope, he's right, I believe. If the circuit through the compressor is
> intact, there'd be 120vac from the "A" leg of the panel to the "top" of
the
> blown fuse and 120vac from the "B" leg traveling through the good fuse,
down
> through the compressor and back up to the "bottom" of the blown fuse.
> Remember, the fuses are in series with the legs, so replacing the blow
fuse
> would reconnect the "top" and "bottom" of the broken leg to complete the
> 240vac circuit.
>
> However, it is only at the fuse that you could get 240vac (between the top
> and bottom) while the fuse of the one leg is blown. That means any
mucking
> around at the compressor or relays could very well expose you to a
> 120vac-to-ground risk from the unblown leg. . . but NOT 240vac. Still,
> 120vac has been enough to curl my own toenails, and I recommend against
it.
> <grin>
> --
>
> Tom Gauldin, Las Vegas NV
> NEW EMAIL tgau...@lvcm.com
> NEW PHONE (702) 263-8804 voice/fax
>
this case the blown fuse is exactly like a switch that's open. If you check
across a closed switch or good fuse you read 0volts, a volt meter is a
comparator, It compares the potential difference of any 2 points in a
circuit and tells you the difference in volts AC. If you read the loadside
of the blown fuse to ground your just reading the 120v from the hotleg thru
the equipment.
A volt meter can get you killed if you don't know what it's trying to tell
you. You've been in the game for a long time now Tom so I know you know how
to use one, your just momentarily confused on the issues.
Noon-Air
"profft" <f.ta...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_YYea.52407$Ad6....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Greg O
>
> Keep making a fool of yourself, idiot. I love it.
>
So do we TP.
How is that PVC water heater vent doing?
Greg
Greg O
>
> Oh, that is just so incredibly moronic. An Old Wive's Tale
> meets the HVAC business. You are actually stupid enough to
> believe that fuses and circuit breakers "react" different to
> overcurrent? And the real sad part is that people actually
> let you touch their wiring???
>
Yup! I believe they do, and I have seen proof.
Installed some equipment a while back, the fuses in the disconnect would
blow every few days. Got the manufacture's installation book out again and
read it again. Missed the part where they recommended the unit to be run on
breakers only, no fuses allowed. Had the disconnect replaced with one with
no fuses or breakers. No problems after that.
Seems the fuses would blow before the SAME size breaker, in the panel, would
pop.
What it came down to was start up amp draw on the motor, the breaker was
slow enough to handle the in rush, where the fuses were not.
So, yes, fuses react differently to an over current.
Greg
Oscar_lives
"TURTLE" <tur...@worldnetla.net> wrote in message
news:b5h1lv$29li2p$1...@ID-79743.news.dfncis.de...
Turtle:
I think he also needs to start taking that Thorazine too.