Trane Heat Pump: Permanent 24v to Reversing Solenoid?
Steve Cutchen
I also have a nice gas furnace. I am currently using the furnace for
heat and use the Heat Pump for A/C only.
I'm concerned about the pressure equalizing noise coming from my
reversing valve when the A/C shuts down. It seems to be getting
louder, too. I'd hate for it to fail in the deenergized state; I'd
lose A/C, and I don't even use it for heat! Besides the noise is
annoying!
I'd like to simply put the valve in cool mode and not worry about it
any more. I could do this by putting 24v on the solenoid and taking it
off of control by the thermostat. Even if the solenoid fails from
running full time, I'd rather take that and buy a replacement solenoid
instead of suffering a valve failure...
Can the solenoid stand to be under power 24/7?
Travis Jordan
> Can the solenoid stand to be under power 24/7?
That's normally how the HP circuitry is wired. When the thermostat is
set to 'Cool' the solenoid is continuously energized (even when there is
no call for cooling).
stretch
the reversing valve when the cooling is satisfied. Wiring the
reversing valve to 24 volts should not hurt it.
Stretch
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
"stretch" <sixf...@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1110761677.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
And its going to help it how?
THe OP states that the changeover is getting louder and louder...why?
Hes wanting to put a bandaide on what sounds like a simple issue thats not
going to get better, and wiring the solienoid 24-7s a great idea, since
there is a life expectancy built into all the parts, and 24-7 aint in the
equasion.
Bob Pietrangelo
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bo...@comcast.net
b...@comfort-solution.biz
www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist
"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:130320051607338501%max...@earthlink.net...
Steve Cutchen
<"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"> wrote:
Basically, I don't need the valve to operate anymore since I don't use
the unit in Heat Pump mode. And with the valve currently moving every
cycle, I'm concerned that wear may cause it to fail. This concern is
reinforced by the sounds the valve makes.
I want the valve to stay in Solenoid Hot position.
Since this sound is new with the new thermostat that runs the Heat Pump
in Cool only, I'm almost certain that the original Heat Pump thermostat
kept the valve solenoid Hot whenever it was in Cool mode, compressor
running or not.
Travis Jordan
> wiring the solienoid 24-7s a great
> idea, since there is a life expectancy built into all the parts, and
> 24-7 aint in the equasion.
Better tell Trane and Honeywell, 'cause that's how the XR series HP
works off the shelf.
Travis Jordan
> Since this sound is new with the new thermostat that runs the Heat
> Pump in Cool only, I'm almost certain that the original Heat Pump
> thermostat kept the valve solenoid Hot whenever it was in Cool mode,
> compressor running or not.
True.
Noon-Air
> Basically, I don't need the valve to operate anymore since I don't use
> the unit in Heat Pump mode. And with the valve currently moving every
> cycle, I'm concerned that wear may cause it to fail. This concern is
> reinforced by the sounds the valve makes.
>
> I want the valve to stay in Solenoid Hot position.
>
> Since this sound is new with the new thermostat that runs the Heat Pump
> in Cool only, I'm almost certain that the original Heat Pump thermostat
> kept the valve solenoid Hot whenever it was in Cool mode, compressor
> running or not.
They build them to last for 18 - 20 years.... so whats the problem??
As I understand it, you re-engineered the system by installing a different
kind of controls on the system, and now you are not happy with the way it
works??
What was wrong with the original controls and setup??
A lot of heat pumps make some kind of noise with the system running and the
RV shifts.
If it really bothers you that much, replace the heat pump with an A/C that
matches the controls you put in.
Why does this sound like there was another problem with the system and
instead of getting the actual problem corrected, he just changed the
thermostat??
B-Hate-Me
"Bob Pietrangelo" <bo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zbKdnW62ts3...@comcast.com...
> You could always just shut off the breaker for the HP
Brilliant !
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
"Travis Jordan" <no....@no.net> wrote in message
news:2egZd.5101967$f47.9...@news.easynews.com...
to cool.
Bottom line everyones missed, the reason he wants to do it, is that hes got
another problem hes also too cheap to get fixed.
Steve Cutchen
<Noon...@comcast.net> wrote:
I had a digital thermostat installed. The original was purely analog.
I didn't need the Heat Pump heat cycle because I have an efficient gas
furnace. So I bought just an AC thermostat. The way the A/C guys
hooked it up, the same power goes to the solenoid that goes to kick off
a cycle. So the valve switches to Cool when the stat calls for A/C and
switches to Heat when the cycle ends. By putting 24V constant on the
solenoild, I'll stop the cycling of the reversing valve, and eliminate
any risk that it could get stuck in the Heat position.
Steve Cutchen
<"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"> wrote:
I'm interested... What's the problem I'm too cheap to fix? I mean
since it's me that should know... I'd like to find out.
Steve Cutchen
<bo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> You could always just shut off the breaker for the HP
Heh.
Just half the breaker... I still need the Cool Pump part to work...
Noon-Air
> I had a digital thermostat installed. The original was purely analog.
OK
> I didn't need the Heat Pump heat cycle because I have an efficient gas
> furnace.
ok, so you wasted extra money on a heat pump you didn't need.
>So I bought just an AC thermostat.
AHH HA!!!.......You reconfigured the controls like I said, now you are not
happy with the results, because you didn't understand how a heat pump works.
> The way the A/C guys
> hooked it up, the same power goes to the solenoid that goes to kick off
> a cycle.
Did it do this when the original thermostat was in the system??
>So the valve switches to Cool when the stat calls for A/C and
> switches to Heat when the cycle ends.
Thats actually what it was designed to do unless you use the correct
controls on it.
With the correct controls, when in cool mode, the stat will hold the RV in
the correct position for cooling, and will shift back when put in heat mode.
>By putting 24V constant on the
> solenoild, I'll stop the cycling of the reversing valve, and eliminate
> any risk that it could get stuck in the Heat position.
And void the warranty, among other things.
Now take the cheap POS stat you bought back to Wally World or Home Cheapo or
wherever you got it from and get a competent tech with the correct controls
out there to do it right.
Bob Pietrangelo
without the swoosh of it swithing over, just wire one lead of the solenoid
to the red wire coming from outside, and the common wire outside. On a
heatpuimp you almost always have hot and common at teh defrost board. After
you dun the AC for the first time it should stay there. My idea of turning
off the breaker is I didn't think you needed ac yet. If you don't just turn
the breaker on when you are ready to use the AC. Rewiring the internal
controls of your HP voids all warranties.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bo...@comcast.net
b...@comfort-solution.biz
www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist
"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:140320051646457751%max...@earthlink.net...
Oscar_Lives
Swap it out with a manual valve. Don't forget to change it over every
Spring and Fall.
Steve Cutchen
<Noon...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > I had a digital thermostat installed. The original was purely analog.
>
> OK
>
> > I didn't need the Heat Pump heat cycle because I have an efficient gas
> > furnace.
>
> ok, so you wasted extra money on a heat pump you didn't need.
Nope... Came with the house. Electric company was offering a kickback
to the builder back in '95. We bought the house in 2001. Didn't even
know it was a heat pump until I heard the unit running when we got our
first cold snap.
> >So I bought just an AC thermostat.
>
> AHH HA!!!.......You reconfigured the controls like I said, now you are not
> happy with the results, because you didn't understand how a heat pump works.
I understand how a heat pump works. My A/C guys redid the thermostat
when they replaced the upstairs heat pump (compressor hard faulted to
ground.) They did the stat wiring. I'm looking to make it more to my
liking by making the reversing valve not cycle.
> > The way the A/C guys
> > hooked it up, the same power goes to the solenoid that goes to kick off
> > a cycle.
>
> Did it do this when the original thermostat was in the system??
I'm about 95% certain it did not. I had never noticed the exhale sound
of the valve reversing before.
> >So the valve switches to Cool when the stat calls for A/C and
> > switches to Heat when the cycle ends.
>
> Thats actually what it was designed to do unless you use the correct
> controls on it.
> With the correct controls, when in cool mode, the stat will hold the RV in
> the correct position for cooling, and will shift back when put in heat mode.
That's all I'm looking to do. And the outside unit will always be in
Cool mode.
> >By putting 24V constant on the
> > solenoild, I'll stop the cycling of the reversing valve, and eliminate
> > any risk that it could get stuck in the Heat position.
>
> And void the warranty, among other things.
It's 10 yrs old...
> Now take the cheap POS stat you bought back to Wally World or Home Cheapo or
> wherever you got it from and get a competent tech with the correct controls
> out there to do it right.
That's who did it. You can argue with them over their competence.
The stat is a Honeywell TSATCCNAC01-B. Not a POS.
Bob Pietrangelo
the suction line going to the compressor and then pipe the liquid line where
that needs to go , now you have no heat pump. Install a contactor so it
will energize fan and compressor at the same time easy HUh?
It will work and no more discussion is really required. Or just bite the
bullet, donate your HP to a needy family or charity, take your tax deduction
for the price of the heat pump then have a friggin Ac installed. Both of
these will solve your problems.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bo...@comcast.net
b...@comfort-solution.biz
www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist
"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:140320050721575064%max...@earthlink.net...
B-Hate-Me
>I have a Trane heat pump, installed when the house was built in 1995.
> I also have a nice gas furnace. I am currently using the furnace for
> heat and use the Heat Pump for A/C only.
Who fucking cares?
PrecisionMachinisT
"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:130320051607338501%max...@earthlink.net...
If that solenoid coil doesn't get hot and burn itself up from being left on
for hour or two at a time then it's unlikely to ever happen, even if left
energized 24/7 for several years at a time.
--
SVL
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
Actually....my bad.
I had read your original post way to early in the morning, and Ive had a
headache for a week...no excuse, but I had apparently thought you had said
that your equalization noise was getting louder...
You didnt...you said annoying.
Still, its your unit, its at the end of its life (you also say its 10 years
old) do what ya want. Wire that O line to your R and leave it there.
If the valve fails, its still gonna revert back to heat position more than
likely anyway.
Jake
>
> I'm about 95% certain it did not. I had never noticed the exhale sound
> of the valve reversing before.
>
Lookit, Steve, I'm not an HVAC guy, I'm a controls geek (among other
things).
If your 'exhaling' description is accurate, you have a pressure equalization
problem that will RUIN your compressor if not addressed. It is only
referentially related to the valve itself.
Your guys screwed up... plain and simple. I don't know what's going on...
I'm not there. But it sounds like the RV is coming in after a compressor
start or weakly on compressor start. Some units have 'soft close' valves
while others snap shut and labor the compressor even more.
If you had a HP stat, then replace it with a HP stat that will bring on the
various equipment as designed.
Get somebody who knows what they are doing out there.
Good Luck,
Jake
PS I do commercial work exclusively, and a resi system might be designed
differently. All I know is that 'exhaling wheeze' is pressure equalization
trouble... I'd guarantee that!!
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm about 95% certain it did not. I had never noticed the exhale sound
>> of the valve reversing before.
>>
>
>
>Lookit, Steve, I'm not an HVAC guy, I'm a controls geek (among other
>things).
>
>If your 'exhaling' description is accurate, you have a pressure equalization
>problem that will RUIN your compressor if not addressed. It is only
>referentially related to the valve itself.
Sorry, wrong.
The RV switches frequently, Jake, even under maximum load ( IE
defrost cycle in heat mode ). Every 30 - 90 minutes or so, in heat
mode, it all of a sudden SLAMS into cooling for a while, and then
SLAMS back into heating. This SLAMS the pressures from one extreme to
the other, as far as the coils are concerned. Of course, compressor
discharge is still compressor discharge, etc.
The difference the compressor sees is limited to the amount of
gas in the discharge pipe between it and the reversing valve - a
matter of a foot or so. Part of that very small 'shock' is dissipated
up the suction line, also.
It does not bother the compressor even a little bit. If it did, you
would have 'heat pump compressors' ( designed to handle it ) and
'cheaper regular AC only compressors' ( not designed to handle it ).
Ain't no such critter. Go to the store and try to by one sometime.
Can't do it.
Yes, the noise is pressures equalizing. No, it will not ruin
ANYTHING.
>PS I do commercial work exclusively, and a resi system might be designed
>differently. All I know is that 'exhaling wheeze' is pressure equalization
>trouble... I'd guarantee that!!
Don't bet actual cash money on it :-)
It's not 'trouble' at all, it's just pressures equalizing.
They are designed to do that, and that's what they do.
Steve Cutchen
<jkel...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm about 95% certain it did not. I had never noticed the exhale sound
> > of the valve reversing before.
> >
>
>
> Lookit, Steve, I'm not an HVAC guy, I'm a controls geek (among other
> things).
>
> If your 'exhaling' description is accurate, you have a pressure equalization
> problem that will RUIN your compressor if not addressed. It is only
> referentially related to the valve itself.
>
> Your guys screwed up... plain and simple. I don't know what's going on...
> I'm not there. But it sounds like the RV is coming in after a compressor
> start or weakly on compressor start. Some units have 'soft close' valves
> while others snap shut and labor the compressor even more.
The RV is working for Cooling mode just as it is supposed to. It is
energizing properly and moving properly. It's just that I don't need
it to cycle at all.
Here's how the system works with the original stat... There is a wire
from the stat that turns on the compressor (red on my unit) and a
separate lead that sets the position of the RV via its solenoid (orange
on my unit). When in Cool mode, there is 24V on the orange RV solenoid
wire at all times. The stat cycles the compressor per normal A/C
demand requirements via the red wire. When switched over the Heat
mode, the orange wire is switched off, the RV solenoid is deenergized
and the RV swaps to heat. The stat still cycles the compressor per
normal heat demand requirements via the red wire.
When the A/C guys installed the digital A/C thermostat and set it to
operate in A/C mode all the time, they disconnected everything but the
red wire. At the HP, they tied the red and orange wires on the unit
side together so they both get 24V when the stat asks for A/C. What
this means is that the RV cycles every time the A/C cycles.
The sound that the RV is making when it deenergizes is a normal sound
for an RV that is deenergizing at the end of a cooling cycle. Prior to
making any changes, using the original stat, the RV would have made
this noise if I had switched the stat from Cool to Heat during a Cool
cycle. But because the orange wire only changed with mode, not with
cycles, the valve didn't swap often... only maybe 20 times per year or
so. Now it is doing it on every A/C cycle.
My A/C guy says the valve is good for this duty cycle, but I'd rather
not take chances with it. I don't need the valve to operate any
longer, but I need it in the Cool position. This is the hot position
for the solenoid. (From what I've read, if this was a Ruud system,
Cool mode would be deenergized, and I could simply unplug the
solenoid.)
My options are:
1. Leave it alone, let the RV cycle with the A/C, hope the A/C guy is
right about the duty cycle and puyt up with the noise.
2. Wire the solenoid to 24V and leave it energized so that the valve is
always in Cool mode.
3. Do #2 with a switch in the line so that I can manually deenergize
the solenoid and let it "rest" during the winter when I am not in
Cooling Season. (or simply unplug the wire from the 24V source...)
Hope this helps understand what I'm doing.
Steve Cutchen
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote:
This is good to hear... I did not know about the defrost cycle being
this often while in heat mode. I feel better about the RV cycling with
the A/C demand and being able to handle it.
Steve Cutchen
<bo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Easy fix. Remove the Reversing valve and pipe the suction line directly to
> the suction line going to the compressor and then pipe the liquid line where
> that needs to go , now you have no heat pump. Install a contactor so it
> will energize fan and compressor at the same time easy HUh?
This is a good idea, but costly compared to wiring 24V to the solenoid.
Still I appreciate the suggestion because if the valve ever does fail I
could simply have sections of tubing installed rather than having a new
RV put in.
This is a big deal, because installing an RV in the field is a PITA,
what with nylon parts in the valve so close to where the heating is
taking place. I've read that some techs will not even try to do it in
the field because of the difficulty in getting it done without screwing
up the valve internals.
Steve Cutchen
<BHateMe@home> wrote:
Fucking fucking I fucking guess fucking fucking that fucking you don't
fucking. Fucking thanks fucking fucking for fucking your fucking time
fucking fucking...
<SIGH>
gof...@soccer.net
<Precision...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:130320051607338501%max...@earthlink.net...
<<snip>>
>> Can the solenoid stand to be under power 24/7?
>
>If that solenoid coil doesn't get hot and burn itself up from being left on
>for hour or two at a time then it's unlikely to ever happen, even if left
>energized 24/7 for several years at a time.
i know of some going on 15 years...
do you suppose they'll fail in heat mode? :-)
RP
That's a Carrier stat. BTW, I'm trying to figure out exactly what your
question is, and best I can tell you're wanting step by step
instructions on how to hard wire the RV in. "Have your service tech"
put O under R instead of Y, at the stat. There are no warranty issues
because the system is already out of warranty. Do not attempt to
rewire the old stat or any other HP stat back in yourself, as a dual
fuel system requires extra controls that may or may not be installed.
OTOH, you might be interested in knowing that RV noise is normal,
excessive RV noise is not. You may have an indoor airflow restriction
or an overcharge causing excessive head pressure in HP mode. I don't
know your location, but in the Mid-South a HP is currently cheaper to
run than a natural gas unit. Some people find the normal RV noise to
be irritating, especially if the unit is poorly located. If this is
the case, then you might keep in mind that Carrier offers a unit with
a Quiet-Shift (TM) defrost board, especially for customers like you.
Richard Perry
Steve Cutchen
<"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"> wrote:
Thanks... sorry for the snipy reply...
I think I'm going to have to actually bring the 24V down from the
furnace (I'll use the orange tstat wire...) The only two wires coming
to the unit now are the red "turn the A/C on" wire, and the 24V common
side. When the thermostat is not calling for cooling, everything is
off at the A/C unit.
Now:
TSTAT (terminal)
24V Hot (R)-----<furnace>
24V Common (C)--<furnace>---<A/C>--Black
Heat (W)--------<furnace>
Cool (Y)--------<furnace>---<A/C>--Red, Orange & Yellow
Fan (G)---------<furnace>
At the A/C, the Common (C)is connected to Black, the Cool (Y) is
connected to Red (A/C on), Orange (RV Solenoid) and Yellow.
I plan to tie to the 24V Hot terminal at the furnace and take it out to
the A/C unit via the currently unconnected orange stat wire. I'll
separate the unit's orange RV Solenoid wire from the threesome
connected to the stat Cool (Y) wire and connect it to the now 24V
orange coming from the furnace.
Future:
TSTAT (terminal)
24V Hot (R)-------<furnace>------<A/C>--Orange
24V Common (C)----<furnace>------<A/C>--Black
Heat (W)----------<furnace>
Cool (Y)----------<furnace>------<A/C>--Red & Yellow
Fan (G)-----------<furnace>
PrecisionMachinisT
Wiring the valve to the compressor at the unit is a hackjob.
--
SVL
PrecisionMachinisT
<gof...@soccer.net> wrote in message
news:96pc31h6vdhm2rkq6...@4ax.com...
What, if the coil burns up ???
Err...depends...
<G>
I tend change positions on ours about every six months.....preferring to use
manual instead of auto changeover.
--
SVL
stretch
solenoid will NOT void the warranty, especially if you do it at the
thermostat wiring connections on the outdoor unit. Just wire orange to
red at that point. Yellow will continue to work the compressor
contactor. Blue (Common) should always be connected. White can be
disconnected in this application. Looks like he installed a new high
efficiency gas furnace and indoor coil in place of the air handler.
Probably didn't like the HP discharge temperature in heat mode. He
wanted that warm feeling that gas gives him. Very understandable. He
already had the heat pump outdoor unit & used it over. Nothing wrong
with that. His dealer did a reasonable thing to use the heat pump
outdoor unit over if it is not too old. The noise is the real problem
here, unlikely that the reversing valve will stick. This is just a
simple control issue. He does not need to throw lots of money at it
buying a new condensing unit. On the other hand, if the outdoor unit is
15 years old, he should have been sold a new condensor by the dude who
sold him the new furnace. But don't complicate things, have the
furnace installer come back and rewire the controls. Remember, low
sound levels are part of comfort.
PS. If you turn the HP breaker off, turn it on 24 hours before you
start cooling to energize the crankcase heater so you will protect the
compressor.
Stretch
stretch
usually to replace the HP. In your case with a straight A/C condensor
for just cooling. Make sure your new condensor matches the indoor
coil, or replace it at the same time to match.
Stretch
Steve Cutchen
stretch <sixf...@sccoast.net> wrote:
> I'm a Trane dealer. Wiring the 24 volts to the reversing valve
> solenoid will NOT void the warranty, especially if you do it at the
> thermostat wiring connections on the outdoor unit. Just wire orange to
> red at that point. Yellow will continue to work the compressor
> contactor. Blue (Common) should always be connected. White can be
> disconnected in this application. Looks like he installed a new high
> efficiency gas furnace and indoor coil in place of the air handler.
Thanks very much for the post.
The gas furnace was installed at the time the house was built. There
was a kickback from the electric company if a HP was installed instead
of a traditional AC, making it cheaper for the builder to install a HP
thn to install a traditional unit. I'm not sure why they still
installed a high efficiency gas furnace, unless there was a concern by
the builder about the perceived comfort issues you mention below. I
think they did not want to try to sell houses with electric emergency
heat, and if they were doing a furnace anyway... well do a decent one.
This is Houston, and gas furnaces are an extremely high percentage of
heat units, especially in moderate to expensive homes. Some entry
homes are all electric, and these have been going HP for a while. But
it is pretty rare.
Noon-Air
So as I said before if you put the correct stat on the system, you won't
have that problem anymore.
Noon-Air
Why not just put the correct thermostat on the system and your problem will
be solved
Jake
> Sorry, wrong.
>
Thanks for the correction and the explanation... I kinda 'belched' out that
answer only because I didn't like to see monkeying with controls is all....
I stand corrected on the issue.
BTW, the 'belch' wasn't a bullshit one, though. We see pumpdown modes on big
equipment all the time before they do switchovers (like in duplexed
systems). I was just curious why you wouldn't have one on a resi system? I'd
think (oh no, here I go thinking again) that lessening the system shock
would be good for all the components and might even make them less
expensive.
Or maybe I'm wrong, AGAIN (Damn, I hate that (-; ).
Jake
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
The 'shock' of the pressure change really mainly hits only the
coils, IE, some copper pipe, which doesn't really care. Not too much
of it hits the compressor, in volume ( and thus, 'work' ) terms.
The noise is just noise.
Jake
> coils, IE, some copper pipe, which doesn't really care. Not too much
> of it hits the compressor, in volume ( and thus, 'work' ) terms.
>
Call me an idiot if you like... do I still not get this?
The RV is switching the suction and discharge around? So you have high
pressure at the suction and low pressure at the discharge (for a little
while, anyhow).
Doesn't the compressor have to 'make up' the P in the switched discharge
line to be efficient? And I'd worry about the mechanicals of low pressure
carrying lubricant successfully (it would appear the compressor is operating
in a 'vacuum')? Why wouldn't a modern compressor, like a scroll, want to
turn backwards when this happens? That should mean more 'work' to keep her
running.
Dumb questions, probably. I'm still just curious... I deal with GB systems
all the time that work harder than this stuff.
Jake
Oscar_Lives
"Steve Cutchen" <max...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:140320052221162023%max...@earthlink.net...
It sounds like you are hacking an otherwise good system and fucking around
with shit you don't understand.
Why not get a proper technician to replace the damn valve and install the
proper thermostat?
Did you by chance get an engineering degree from some hut in the Virgin
Islands?
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>> The 'shock' of the pressure change really mainly hits only the
>> coils, IE, some copper pipe, which doesn't really care. Not too much
>> of it hits the compressor, in volume ( and thus, 'work' ) terms.
>>
>
>
>Call me an idiot if you like... do I still not get this?
Idiot :-)
>The RV is switching the suction and discharge around? So you have high
>pressure at the suction and low pressure at the discharge (for a little
>while, anyhow).
Yep. The outdoor coil ( used to be discharge condensor ) is
now the evap, and the indoor coil ( used to be evap ) is now the
condensor. But, the high pressure seen at the compressor suction line
is only momentary as the indoor coil is pulled down to suction
pressure ( while the outdoor coil goes to discharge pressure ), NOT
for the entire defrost cycle !
>
>Doesn't the compressor have to 'make up' the P in the switched discharge
>line to be efficient?
Who P'd in the discharge line ???? Damn, I hate when that
happens ..... not as much as the guy who tried P'ing in the discharge
line .....
>And I'd worry about the mechanicals of low pressure
>carrying lubricant successfully (it would appear the compressor is operating
>in a 'vacuum')?
Yes and no, in that order. Yes, carrying the oil is always an
issue in ANY suction side, as the oil is a liquid ( mist ) entrained
in a vapor at that point, and dependent on velocity to carry it around
and back.
No, the compressor does not go to a vacumn. A different
expansion device takes over from the first one, ( which is now out of
the circuit, either by check valves around it, or other means ). The
( other ) expansion device is now metering liquid into the outdoor
coil , which is now the evap ( I'm talking about heat mode here ). In
defrost, they change back to AC mode, and the discharge again goes to
the outdoor coil, this time to assure there's no ice on it.
> Why wouldn't a modern compressor, like a scroll, want to
>turn backwards when this happens? That should mean more 'work' to keep her
>running.
The power of the compressor greatly overpowers the power of
the refrigerant pressures. If it didn't, you got problems :-)
Steve Cutchen
<max...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I think I'm going to have to actually bring the 24V down from the
> furnace (I'll use the orange tstat wire...) The only two wires coming
> to the unit now are the red "turn the A/C on" wire, and the 24V common
> side. When the thermostat is not calling for cooling, everything is
> off at the A/C unit.
>
> Now:
>
> TSTAT (terminal)
> 24V Hot (R)-----<furnace>
> 24V Common (C)--<furnace>---<A/C>--Black
> Heat (W)--------<furnace>
> Cool (Y)--------<furnace>---<A/C>--Red, Orange & Yellow
> Fan (G)---------<furnace>
>
> At the A/C, the Common (C)is connected to Black, the Cool (Y) is
> connected to Red (A/C 24v Power), Orange (RV Solenoid) and Yellow
> (Contactor).
>
> I plan to tie to the 24V Hot terminal at the furnace and take it out to
> the A/C unit via the currently unconnected orange stat wire. I'll
> separate the unit's orange RV Solenoid wire from the threesome
> connected to the stat Cool (Y) wire and connect it to the now 24V
> orange coming from the furnace.
>
> Future:
>
> TSTAT (terminal)
> 24V Hot (R)-------<furnace>------<A/C>--Orange
> 24V Common (C)----<furnace>------<A/C>--Black
> Heat (W)----------<furnace>
> Cool (Y)----------<furnace>------<A/C>--Red & Yellow
> Fan (G)-----------<furnace>
Did this today, andf it's working great.
Thanks to all that offered constructive assistance and advice. You
guys were a great help.
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
On behalf of the group, I would like to apologise.
You have seen the darker side of the trade, the one that's
infested with .......
Oh, never mind :-)
Steve Cutchen
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote:
Heh. It's everywhere... Some once great newsgroups are now dead.
alt.best.of.internet was so cool. Astronauts posting diary entries
from space. Great humor. Great www links when Alta-Vista was all the
search there was. And pretty much every dead group I know has been
murdered rather than dying a natural death.
I think Usenet is so much easier to use than web forums. But sadly, it
seems to be going away slowly but surely.
Noon-Air
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:q70f311rif4b4c086...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:40:52 GMT, "Jake" <jkel...@insightbb.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> The 'shock' of the pressure change really mainly hits only the
>>> coils, IE, some copper pipe, which doesn't really care. Not too much
>>> of it hits the compressor, in volume ( and thus, 'work' ) terms.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Call me an idiot if you like... do I still not get this?
>
> Idiot :-)
>
>>The RV is switching the suction and discharge around? So you have high
>>pressure at the suction and low pressure at the discharge (for a little
>>while, anyhow).
> Yep. The outdoor coil ( used to be discharge condensor ) is
> now the evap, and the indoor coil ( used to be evap ) is now the
> condensor. But, the high pressure seen at the compressor suction line
> is only momentary as the indoor coil is pulled down to suction
> pressure ( while the outdoor coil goes to discharge pressure ), NOT
> for the entire defrost cycle !
There is also an accumulator in the suction line between the RV and the
compressor.
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
It was a JOKE man....
Dave, our local pedophile that infests this place and pretends to be a HVAC
tech, that has admitted to wanting to fuck his customers children....yes..he
did indeed...uses that darker side line every damn time he posts...says WE
are the bad guys...that WE are the sickos...and then thumps his bible that
hes got over his head to protect from flying objects.....
It was funny as hell to the regs in the know however..
Good one Paul.
PrecisionMachinisT
"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" <st...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote
in message news:m7QZd.1203$uC2....@eagle.america.net...
Oil or gas must be *really* cheap where he's at, compared to
electricity...still I think I would at least leave the heat pump wired in to
fire as auxillary or second stage--or am I missing something here ???
--
SVL
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
"PrecisionMachinisT" <Precision...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QsydnVlxq5G...@scnresearch.com...
If I had that setup....I would have the heatpump set as primary, with his
gas as secondary, with an outdoor thermostat to control the 2nd
stage...but...hey..beats me as to where he is at, or how cheap his gas is
compared to his electric..
Just overall, sounds like he had a company that might have had good intent,
but had no clue.
>
>
>
>
PrecisionMachinisT
"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" <st...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote
in message news:78_Zd.1223$uC2....@eagle.america.net...
>
> "PrecisionMachinisT" <Precision...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:QsydnVlxq5G...@scnresearch.com...
> >
> > electricity...still I think I would at least leave the heat pump wired
in
> to
> > fire as auxillary or second stage--or am I missing something here ???
> >
>
> gas as secondary, with an outdoor thermostat to control the 2nd
> stage...but...hey..beats me as to where he is at, or how cheap his gas is
> compared to his electric..
>
> Just overall, sounds like he had a company that might have had good
intent,
> but had no clue.
>
Use whatever is most economical as primary.
The gas would likely only rarely fire as second stage in his area unless he
is using a large setback--which is probly the usual case when folks bitch
about "the supply air 'feels' cold".
IIRC, he is in Houston, Tx....
--
SVL
Noon-Air
>> Just overall, sounds like he had a company that might have had good
> intent,
>> but had no clue.
Yup
> Use whatever is most economical as primary.
>
> The gas would likely only rarely fire as second stage in his area unless
> he
> is using a large setback--which is probly the usual case when folks bitch
> about "the supply air 'feels' cold".
>
> IIRC, he is in Houston, Tx....
That explains a lot
All he really needed to do was get a *competent* tech out there to install
the correct controls, then wire it up correctly.
PrecisionMachinisT
"Noon-Air" <Noon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:O5Gdnek_cea...@comcast.com...
> >
> > IIRC, he is in Houston, Tx....
>
> That explains a lot
>
> All he really needed to do was get a *competent* tech out there to install
> the correct controls, then wire it up correctly.
>
Yup--all that wasted bandwidth......
Really too bad that he didnt get all pissy about it!!!
<G>
--
SVL
Vicki Szaszvari
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
> It does not bother the compressor even a little bit. If it did, you
> would have 'heat pump compressors' ( designed to handle it ) and
> 'cheaper regular AC only compressors' ( not designed to handle it ).
> Ain't no such critter. Go to the store and try to by one sometime.
> Can't do it.
Twenty years ago you could. Anyone else remember that?
Vicki Szaszvari
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
> Oil or gas must be *really* cheap where he's at, compared to
> electricity...still I think I would at least leave the heat pump wired in to
> fire as auxillary or second stage--or am I missing something here ???
It is here. I would *never* use a heat pump as long as my gas furnace
worked; beyond electricity, you also have wear and tear on THREE motors
(inluding the compressor) versus one on the furnace. Alosm defrost
cycles are a TOTAL waste of electricity.
I kept my stat on 75º all winter...heat water and cook with gas.
Highest gas bill was $150 for a 2K square foot single story house...with
minimal insulation. And the gas pack furnace heats the house faster
than a heat pump, and doesn't work less efficiently when it's cold out.
And doesn't blow cold air in the middle of the night on defrost.
Steve@carolinabreezehvac
"Vicki Szaszvari" <vickin...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:d1le9l$k...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Cold air, on defrost? LOL..someone would have wired one of ours wrong...the
only way you realize one of ours is in defrost is the RV kicking in.
PrecisionMachinisT
"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" <st...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote
in message news:Yjs%d.1525$uC2....@eagle.america.net...
I usually keep my options open...nobody in the building....night
setback......
--
SVL