APP: Hi Barbara, it has been a couple of months… What have you been up
Barbara Schwarz: I'm kind of busy with private projects.
APP: Wanna talk about it?
Barbara Schwarz: Not really.
APP: Fair enough. Am I still your favorite reporter?
Barbara Schwarz (laughs): Sort of.
APP: Why do you post on Usenet that Scientologists could become
victims of terror attacks?
Barbara Schwarz: Because I can feel the danger and know how the German
secret service and its psychiatrists think. We Scientologists call it
"Thetan basically knows". That means that you know stuff even if
nobody tells you.
APP: That doesn't make the FBI jump and protect Scientologists or
Barbara Schwarz: There is more to it and that indeed would fall under
their scope of investigative duties.
The German secret service recruits people and sends agents to
infiltrate Scientology. Then they beat each other up within the
highest management of Scientology. Next, this information is published
and even admitted by the C of S. It all serves the purpose to make
mainstream believe that Scientologists are violent, which they are
not. Apparently, people who do not apply Scientology are violent but
they are no Scientologists but joined Scientology for other but
And the worst problem is that psychiatrists know how to make
terrorists and suicide killers.
APP: How do they do that?
Barbara Schwarz: Psychiatrist George Estabrooks boasted about that.
And he was and is not the only one who knows how to do it. All they
have to do is to turn one of their many infiltrators into a killer or
suicide killer (to get rid the evidence of a psychiatric manipulated
mind) and have him opening fire or planting bombs in a Scientology
organization or pouring poison in the Sea Org food or water. DM's
management failed already to document the secret psychiatric
alteration of Lisa McPherson, Jeremy Perkins and of a number of other
alleged Scientologists who committed "suicide". It is really stupid
not to investigate and document this and to think that it will not
happen again. Scientologists can't afford to ignore these psychiatric
crimes and can't afford not to document these psychiatric crimes.
Moreover, they also owe it to the rest of the world as psychs use the
same methods on the rest oft the world and turn people into killers,
suicide killers and terrorists.
APP: You think they are victims who suffered psychiatric attacks that
drove them to do what they did or how they ended up?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes, that is what I think exactly, altered people
through psychiatric mind control, implants, drugs and hypnosis. It is
not Scientology who did it to them. And with mainstream now knowing
about brutal people within the DM management, psychiatrists who
consider Scientology a threat to their butcher "science" psychiatry
and particularly the German secret service may look for an "Endlösung"
but of course don't want to get caught but rather will blame whatever
they secretly set up and organize on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.
That is what they always did and do.
APP: How can Scientologists protect themselves?
Barbara Schwarz: They should demand hearings by Congress and should
tell the TRUE story about L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology and demand
protection by the government and the conviction of infiltrators,
psychs, the German government and their secret services. They should
use any channel available to tell the TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
APP: Germany wanted to outlaw Scientology but they didn't do it.
Barbara Schwarz: Germany fears being rightfully accused of being the
same old Nazis that they always were, and that is why they want to put
France up to outlaw Scientology first. Once France outlawed
Scientology, Germany will do it too and then they will say: "It wasn't
us, we just followed the French decision and after having seen the
violent streak (which THEY inserted secretly into SCN), we had no
other choice." But they will not say that they made France do it. They
think: in order to close Scientology down forever, they just have to
condition one of their infiltrators to open fire in an org or throw
poison in sea org food. They think an massacre like Jonestown or
Columbine will wipe Scientology out.
APP: Did you address the authorities?
Barbara Schwarz: I sure did but I don't think that they do what is
necessary to prevent infiltration or a planned terror attack. I am
really not in the best situation to help Scientologists. I was kicked
out by infiltrators. Scientology infiltrators defamed me and made me
look like a liar or person with mental problems, and they made such
statements to the press. Officials have access to these false
information and might fall for it or use it as a justification not to
do the right actions. I can't convince them and protect Scientologists
by having not only nothing to say in Scientology but at the same time
being defamed by people in Scientology! If they want me to help them
and kick German psych butts, they have to throw me a rope and to ask
me to come back but not as a little insignificant wheel in a tiny org
or mission surrounded by infiltrators and under DM's management.
Scientologists have to sit down and tell everything they know, the
true story about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, the infiltration, the
doppelgangers and impostors, the secret psychiatric set ups within
Scientology, what happened to the original Marty Rathbun, his wrongful
incarceration, me being Ron's daughter, Marty and my marriage in St.
Hill, etc. to Congress and have to insist of governmental protection
for any Scientologist including themselves.
APP: How can your personal stories have an impact?
Barbara Schwarz: If the founder of Scientology has no rights in
Scientology and is replaced by an impostor, Marty replaced by a
doppelganger, me being kicked out and defamed, there is something
AWFULLY wrong with the entire structure. How can this still be L. Ron
Hubbard's Scientology? It is significant as to what happened to us.
I posted my story on Usenet, alt.religion.scientology end of 2002 and
in beginning of 2003. That was a time in which Scientology didn't had
too many problems except this newsgroup and the people posting there.
In other words, I am certain that DM and his executive strata learned
how my rights were denied by Scientology infiltrators and that I was
kicked out illegally and wrongfully. But I got no apology from DM or
anybody else of his management. After I posted my story, the CO of the
Utah SCN org wrote me twice, asking me to join them but her org is a
Class IV org. Nothing against Class IV orgs but I am a Sea org member.
I belong in the Sea Org and not a Class IV org. DM and his management
did not restore my former status in Scientology. I will not play a
small wheel in an org because DM can't confront me after having taken
over Scientology with a will/affidavit that was not written by L. Ron
Keeping the original Marty and me out of Scientology is just about the
dumbest thing that Scientologists can do because we would do anything
in our power to get L. Ron Hubbard, original Scientology, and the
original OT levels back and on top build them the most wonderful
living conditions, in which they could preserve their youth, health
and enjoy enormous longevity. They could have paradise, and all they
have to do is to be truthful. As if that is too much to ask for…
APP: Let me cut in here… There is the purification rundown and some
other things that L. Ron Hubbard wrote about nutrition…
Barbara Schwarz: I recall that he wrote a LOT about nutrition and
these data were removed from Scientology. He even wrote how to avoid
cancer and other diseases and to heal them. And it can be done. Yes,
the purification rundown is great and works to get toxins and germs
out of the body but in order to preserve youth, health, and attain
enormous longevity, it needs more than the purification rundown. L.
Ron Hubbard wanted Scientologists to produce their own clean water,
food, and air, etc.
The critics of Scientologists, Anonymous and anti-religious Extremists
ridicule L. Ron Hubbard, Dianetics, and Scientology often saying that
L. Ron Hubbard said that it can heal cancer but it would not be able
to do so.
But what they are not saying is that the nutrition that L. Ron Hubbard
recommended, what Scientologists should eat and not eat and what they
should drink and how they should live is no longer a part of Dianetics
and Scientology as taken out by the infiltrators. Most Scientologists
eat the same crap that most non-Scientologists eat and that is why
also they can get cancer and die on it. I bet some even go on
dangerous and ineffective Chemo instead of beating it with nutrition.
L. Ron Hubbard said that the right nutrition, completely
uncontaminated water and food does not just prevent cancer, it also
heals it, and he was right, again.
If you would have a shirt and a stain on it, the purification helps
you to get the stain out of it but it better to never get a stain on
your shirt, do you understand?
APP: I guess so… But isn't the body irrelevant, after all,
Scientologists believe they are born again with new bodies.
Barbara Schwarz: The body is not irrelevant. It is important to keep
it young and healthy, and who wants to look like an old sick prune
anyway? But this happens to people on the unprotected surface of the
world with lousy food and water. When a person dies, she is not free.
There are modern psychiatric secret techniques that rob memories and
skills. They take everything you worked for in your life time and
separate you from the family that you once loved, etc. There are a lot
of reasons why it is better not to drop the body frequently.
APP: Shouldn't the OT levels prevent the loss of memory and so on?
Barbara Schwarz: Original OT levels yes, but the German government and
their psychs altered Scientology and particularly the OT levels.
Altered OT levels don't help people much with surviving what comes
after death. We need laws and regulations and law enforcement
controlling what happens to people after they died and that thetans
(or spirits if you want) have the same rights as the human with bodies
have. It is even a part of the Scientology creed.
APP: Many people don't believe in an afterlife and most people believe
that it is unknown and that it never can be found out what happens
Barbara Schwarz: They are wrong. Past lives can be scientific proven.
APP: Certain people say that it is L. Ron Hubbard's handwriting on
what they think the OT levels are.
Barbara Schwarz: L. Ron Hubbard was forged. The will/affidavit that DM
uses to run Scientology with is also not by L. Ron Hubbard. There was
even a forger letter unit within Scientology. Numerous people forged
day by day thousand times L. Ron Hubbard's signature under letters to
Scientologists. I got them too in the late 70s and early 80s.
APP: L. Ron Hubbard was still alive back then, right?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes, he was but the reality was that he could not
enter any org, he could not see and correct any secret ordered German
alteration in the orgs because when he came close to any org, German
secret service snipers shot at him!
APP: So, what do you think of the Church of Scientology?
Barbara Schwarz: What I always thought about it. True and amazing
religion as founded by L. Ron Hubbard, unfortunately, infiltrated and
altered by non-religious people. But not only Scientology has this
APP: What other religion has an infiltration problem?
Barbara Schwarz: Just about all of them. If you find somebody in a
religious community or in a church who does not behave according to
its religious principles, it is not a religious person. Catholic
priests molested children. Is that what Jesus preached? Of course not!
They are perverts who are not religious. They join a church for
criminal and not religious reasons. It not the scriptures who attract
them but the idea that they can get easily their hands on kid when
they joined. – And this brings me right back also to any other
organization and even governments who are also infiltrated. If an
official within the US government does not act American and wastes
American money and conspires against Americans, you have an
infiltrator who occupies the post so that nobody with a real American
agenda can do the job properly.
APP: And you still think that the German secret service organizes the
Barbara Schwarz: Of course I do because I recognize their typical
German set ups 5000 miles against the wind and through 1000
hurricanes. They may be able to fool the entire world but not me.
Kidnapping me from Ron in their country enabled me to study them in
detail. It was the biggest mistake that they made. Even the word says
it: MISTAKE. It was a mistake to TAKE the MISS.
APP: Now I forgot my next question…
Barbara Schwarz: You better hurry up as I have not all day…
APP: Okay, okay… People criticized me having not ask you really tough
questions. Some even wrote that I am you and that mischief would be
your middle name.
Barbara Schwarz (laughs): I wonder where they got that from. I always
thought too that you would be me. Are you not? That would mean that
two identities would be one person that's a lot better than one
identity for two people as this is doppelganger business in which I am
certainly not engaged. And you hopefully either – just in case you
should not be me.
APP: Do you still love Marty or Mark Rathbun?
Barbara Schwarz: More than my life but that was not a tough question.
APP: The person who was interviewed by the SP Times is not Marty
Barbara Schwarz: He is not my Marty. If his name would be Marty
Rathbun too, it would be sure a huge coincident in which I do not
believe. The doppelganger makes me look like an idiot, crazy person or
a liar. I say that I married Marty. He says he does not think that he
met me and that he did not marry me (which is true) but he conceals
that he is not the original Marty.
APP: So, what's going on?
Barbara Schwarz: Apparently not just L. Ron Hubbard had at least one
doppelganger but the original Marty Rathbun has one too. The original
Marty Rathbun disappeared from Scientology around the end of 1988. I
strongly assume that Marty was one of the 71 Scientologists who were
arrested on November 21, 1988 by the Spaniards in Madrid while he was
traveling in Europe.
APP: Here are all the photos that I found on Marty or Mark Rathbun in
Scientology publications. Can you show me who is the original and who
is the doppelganger?
Barbara Schwarz: Sure I can. See the photo where he sits at the
conference table and talks to Mike Sutter? That is the original Marty.
This one in Italy, addressing Scientologists, that is the original
Marty too in a white Sea Org uniform. And this is a close up picture
of him too, must have been taken just a few months before he was
wrongfully in Spain.
APP: Here is someone in a white Sea Org uniform and behind a woman
with a flag…
Barbara Schwarz: That’s the doppelganger. Actually, as the
doppelganger was longer on staff than the original Marty, he is on
more Scientology pictures than the original Marty.
APP: What about the person who cuts the ribbon on this photo?
Barbara Schwarz: It is the doppelganger.
APP: What makes you so sure?
Barbara Schwarz: You can't fool the eye of a loving woman. The real
Marty would also not beat others and would not destroy records Nor
would he call somebody who works for the German government to ruin
Scientology call his friend. What's most striking is that they have a
different ethics level and charisma. They walk and talk differently,
have a different shine behind their eyes and not even the ribbons on
their Sea Org uniforms match. Have a look here, this is a large photo
of the original Marty. You can see all his ribbons. And here is a
large photo of the doppelganger. You can see all his ribbons. They
APP: I'll be darned… They are really not the same. – So, this other
Marty finds out that the original Marty is wrongfully incarcerated and
walks into the Scientology orgs and takes over the original Marty's
job, just like that?
Barbara Schwarz: I don't think that this happened rather that David
Miscavige hired the doppelganger.
APP: Why would he do a thing like this?
Barbara Schwarz: I think there were two main reasons. One: to mislead
me that Marty is free and well and does not need me and gives a damn
about me. Two: as the doppelganger told to the reporter, DM doesn't
like bad press. A high Scientology executive in prison, even if
innocent night be reason for bad press in his mind. Instead of helping
innocent Marty out of prison and proving his innocence according to
the Code of Honor, he left him behind and replaced him with a
APP: The doppelganger Marty says he was in Scientology for 27 years…
Barbara Schwarz: If you listen carefully to what he tells the SP
Times, you will find out that he was not 27 years in Scientology. He
says that he approached a Scientology body router to do the
communication course to talk better to psychiatrists or his brother
who was often locked up in a mental ward. But I don't believe it. He
concealed through which mission or org he entered the SO. He conceals
the place he was born. He talks about the first seven years of his
alleged carrier in Scientology as he would read it off a script and
doesn't show emotions. But his story suddenly becomes alive and he
suddenly shows emotions when he talks about what he really experienced
in Scientology, and that was around 1990 and not 1977. And there are
some contradictions in his story.
APP: What contradictions?
Barbara Schwarz: In the SP Times video section about Lisa McPherson,
he says that he attended Type III handlings since 20 years. A few
minutes later in the same section, he says that he attended Type III
handlings since his beginning days in Scientology. That means that he
is only 20 years in Scientology not 27 years and the former 7 years
are those of the original Mark Rathbun.
In the video section about Musical Chairs or SP Hall, he says that
David Miscavige accused him of being his SP (Suppressive Person) for
20 years. In the introduction video, he said that he worked together
with David Miscavige soon after he joined the Sea Org, those are
approx. 25 years and not just 20 years. That means of course if David
Miscavige told him that he is his SP for 20 years that he knows too
that the "Marty" who talked to the SP Tines is not the Mark Rathbun
who joined in 1977 but that "his SP" is the doppelganger who joined
Despite that the doppelganger of Marty Rathbun and Dave Miscavige
attack each other now and perhaps will attack each other in court,
they still conspire together as to what happened to the original Mark
C. Rathbun who vanished from the surface of the Earth in the late 80s.
APP: On what charges do you think the original Marty was arrested?
Barbara Schwarz: Spain just like France is a German poodle. I think
that they fabricated charges against him on secret orders by the
German government, e.g. that he transported high amounts of money from
Spain to the USA, which is completely ridiculous because Marty was the
Inspector General for Ethics, he had nothing to do with the finances
of Scientology. Also, I was on the Board of all Scientology financial
funds, the Sea Org reserves. They should be in the USA. They are in
Luxembourg, very close to the Germans so that they can steal the money
when they become the official leaders of the European Community. If
high amounts of Spanish money were really transferred out of Spain,
then they ended up again in Europe.
APP: Didn't Spain recognize Scientology as a religion?
Barbara Schwarz: I think so but I don't think that they let innocent
APP: You think he still is in Spain?
Barbara Schwarz: No, I think that he was extradited to the USA but
that the Spaniards are the reason why he is not paroled. I addressed
the government and the US government and asked them to let me know
where he is being held. They did not provide me with the information
and their letters were suspicious.
See this one? (She points to a photo) This is the original Marty and
somebody put it on the RTC website in the early 2000s. Somebody within
the RTC got hold of a more recent photo of the real Marty and webs it
instead of the doppelganger's photo. And do you know why? Because they
know that I can see the difference between the two, otherwise they
would have webbed a recent photo of the doppelganger.
Marty and also L. Ron Hubbard had doppelgangers and both were
APP: He doesn't look like a prisoner. He wears a fine suit. Looks very
Barbara Schwarz: Prisoners do not always wear jump suits. If they go
to court, they are often allowed to wear a suit. That photo is telling
me two things: 1) His wonderful smile is for me. 2) He doesn't like
the food too much that he gets to eat, which again points toward an
incarceration. 3) Despite being through roughest times, he is not
defeated 4) He is still the same person who stole my heart
APP: How did you figure that out?
Barbara Schwarz: You don't have to know everything, don't you?
APP: Do you think that David Miscavige beats others?
Barbara Schwarz: I don’t think that he constantly beats people but I
doubt that he never raised the hand against anybody else.
APP: What about this running around a pole thing, throwing people into
pools, the SP hall, musical chairs…
Barbara Schwarz: Its not Scientology, it's squirreling and abusive. DM
seems to me being a fan of the impostor of L. Ron Hubbard because the
real one did not play abusive games.
APP: So, you believe the defectors?
Barbara Schwarz: How can I believe for example the doppelganger of
Marty Rathbun who took over the life of the original Marty? I believe
some of what he is saying because I noticed the same or a very similar
thing but most certainly, I can't trust all he is saying. But some of
what the doppelganger said is definitely true. I noticed too that
Author services degrades L. Ron Hubbard's fiction with what is
generally known as soft porn. And of course, L. Ron Hubbard's fiction
is also not his original work but altered. And do I think that DM
wastes Scientology money? Yes, absolutely.
APP: You are considering yourself still a Scientologist?
Barbara Schwarz: Of course. I am one. The people who rip Scientology
off and don't apply L. Ron Hubbard's wisdom and allow the German
secret service to take over are none.
Most of all, it was Tommy Davis, DM's friend who convinced me of how
much is wrong with the DM administration. His defense action, what he
told and hollered during the SP Times interview convinced me that the
Sea Org (particular INT, DM's org) is indeed extremely low on the tone
scale and also violent. If DM himself beat people too or not isn't
even that relevant to me. Tommy Davis acknowledged at least 50
occasions of violence within the top executive strata. What kind of
leader allows this to happened not just once but at least 50 times?
Why didn't DM turn the violent person(s) over to the authorities after
the first incident?
APP: Tommy Davis said that the person of who you think it is a
doppelganger of Marty Rathbun committed this violence and he admitted
that he slapped some people.
Barbara Schwarz: I think he did a lot more than just some slapping.
They are all lucky that nobody died during these gorilla games. But I
don't think that he was the only one who beat others. And again, DM is
in charge. The leader sets the tone. If he is low on what L. Ron
Hubbard called the Tonescale, the scale of human emotions and
behavior, non-uptone juniors will pick that up and behave accordingly.
If DM would be just a bit like L. Ron Hubbard, (the real one, not his
impostor) his executives would behave very differently and not like
rowdies and lunatics.
DM is in charge for the quality of the Sea Org, particularly for his
own org, which reflects so many faults. If he would follow L. Ron
Hubbard's footstep, not even the roughest of people would dare to beat
up anybody. If DM would be uptone, high on the Tonescale, his
executives would be too or at least would aim to be uptone.
APP: Is having people run around a pole, throwing them in swimming
pools, the SP Hall and DM's game of musical chairs squirreling?
Barbara Schwarz: Of course it is. It's a glorification of what people
fabricated about L. Ron Hubbard or what the L. Ron Hubbard impostor, a
German secret service dupe introduced.
APP: What about abortions?
Barbara Schwarz: I sure hope, it is not true. L. Ron Hubbard states
clearly that abortion is on 1.1 (low on the tonescale) and that no
woman should do that to her unborn child. He talks in the Dianetics
book about it too. But in the 80s, there was a young woman who was
pregnant who told me that she was told indirectly by a RTC recruiter
that she has to abort if she wants to joint the RTC as there are no
kids allowed at INT. I told her not to abort and rather to join in
other Sea Orgs that allows kids. When I saw her again (many weeks
after our talk)I asked her if she still would have her baby. She said
APP: Why are no kids allowed at INT?
Barbara Schwarz: The German secret service was in the habit of trying
to murder L. Ron Hubbard. They shot at him not just once. He didn't
want to endanger any child. That is why he told the Scientologists
that if anybody who wants to be around him must be aware of this and
must be an adult. It seems that DM kept this no kids rule despite
after death of L. Ron Hubbard it made no sense anymore. DM isn't the
target of the German Secret Service. If you ask me, they got him the
job. I also think that DM approved of this movie about Claus
Stauffenberg, which is a Nazi apology. Stauffenberg supported Hitler
and the Nazis for many years and when he learned that the Allies would
kick his butt, he tried to save his sorry behind. What a "hero"! I
also think that this socalled attempt against Hitler's life was
APP: What about the RPF in Scientology, the Rehabilitation Project
Force where people can rehabilitate themselves? Should DM send violent
Barbara Schwarz: Violent people do not belong into any organization
and neither in the RPF because the RPF is on org grounds. Violent
people belong in prison and should be rehabilitated through Criminon.
– But DM didn't assign the doppelganger after the first, second or
fifty acts of violence to the RPF either, didn't he?
APP: Tommy Davis said that the person of who you think is a
doppelganger of the original Marty Rathbun committed all this
violence, and he admitted some of it
Barbara Schwarz: And I believe that the doppelganger of Marty
committed all these acts of violence that Tommy Davis described but DM
did let it go on for so long, and I don't think that the doppelganger
was the only one who beat people. Fact is that DM and likely also
others do not apply L. Ron Hubbard's tonescale when selecting
executives. If I don’t apply L. Ron Hubbard's technology, I am simply
not a Scientologist.
APP: Are you saying that DM is not a real Scientologist?
Barbara Schwarz: Do you have another explanation when looking at his
activities or omissions?
I think the doppelganger was hired from a body double agency right
into the no. 2 spot of DM's top Scientology management without being a
Scientologist. On the top 2 spot in Scientology management, he became
accidentally a "Scientologist".
However, it seems that the doppelganger discovered during his years in
the orgs that Scientology works, and I assume that if he would have
seen ethics, honesty, decency, uptone behavior and non-violence within
the DM's management, he probably would have not have committed what he
did – but on the other side, when his entire appearance within
Scientology serves deception (pretending to be somebody else), how can
something good come from it?
If he was hired by DM and possibly also Mike Rinder and others to
mislead, then they are no Scientologists as truthfulness and ethics is
of most importance in Scientology.
APP: What do you think about the doppelganger's career in Scientology?
Barbara Schwarz: It shows that the DM administration is completely off
L. Ron Hubbard's policy. According to the SP Times interview, the
doppelganger blew (ran off) in the mid 90s. People who blow from their
posts are usually sent to Ethics and assigned to the RPF but instead,
DM awarded Marty's doppelganger with a cruise on the Freewinds and
free training and auditing. Why would DM do that? Because I think that
Marty's doppelganger knows something about DM that could get DM in a
lot of troubles, e.g. DM working with doppelgangers including the
impostor of L. Ron Hubbard.
According to the SP Times interview, after Marty's doppelganger
returned from the Freewinds, DM takes him back in his executive strata
and assigns him again high executive tasks but gives him no official
and precise position on any org board.
It is completely off policy. A person in Scientology must hold a clear
defined job with clear defined functions and tasks. The job must be on
a L. Ron Hubbard org board and based on his policies. It looks to me
that DM treated him rather as his personal hired employee than a
Scientologist, despite he was fully trained by now. He doesn't assign
him a stable post on an org board but on the other side gives him very
sensitive high executive jobs to handle, e.g. taking him along to the
IRS, have him handling the Lisa McPherson case and have him audit Tom
Cruise, the biggest celebrity in Scientology.
Approximately 10 years later, he leaves INT disappointed and lives in
a Sea Org berthing in Florida, where he works in a Sea Org mill and
actually likes that work (which is actually a plus for the
doppelganger) but has nobody to talk to but a dog after his wife gave
up on him, and DM has no courage to confront this man. Not
surprisingly, he turns into DM's opponent.
DM has a non-confront and thinks the problem will go away but now he
has to deal with the aftermath. What a "leader". I am so "impressed".
When I thinking of DM, the song "Viva La Vida" comes in my mind. That
would be mighty good music to play musical chairs!
Despite they attack each other, DM and the doppelganger are still
conspiring together and concealing that he is not the original Marty.
APP: He says that Scientology stands for unconditional love and
forgiveness. What does he mean?
Barbara Schwarz: I guess he means that L. Ron Hubbard wrote: "The
hardest task one can have is to continue to love his fellows despite
all reasons he should not."
A real Scientologist loves unconditionally, that's right but with
forgiveness, it looks a bit different. If somebody needs to be
forgiven, he or she did something bad. When you forgive
unconditionally, certain people don't learn and do the same thing
again. Also, in order for a person to get her self-worth back, she has
to make good what she did wrong. There is such a thing as amends in
Scientology, at least there was under L. Ron Hubbard.
APP: Let's talk briefly about L. Ron Hubbard.
Barbara Schwarz: I love to talk about Ron and not just briefly.
APP: You stated so many times that "the Vistaril man" who died in 1986
was not L. Ron Hubbard.
Barbara Schwarz: That's right.
APP: How do you know?
Barbara Schwarz: Just as I figured out that Marty has a doppelganger.
Compare the photos and the videos. The babbling guy on YouTube videos
is the impostor. Completely different character, charisma, different
shine behind the eyes, different posture, different styles.
APP: The guy with Mary Sue on the vessel is the impostor?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes, I think she married the impostor and probably
never met the real L. Ron Hubbard. He also wasn’t married to the other
women. They must have been the wives of one or more doppelgangers and
APP: He looks a lot like L. Ron Hubbard…
Barbara Schwarz: Just like the doppelganger of Marty Rathbun looks a
lot like the real Marty. But they are not the same person. I have seen
at least one woman in my life who had exactly my face and hair but she
was nothing like me. She had not even remotely my character. We could
not be more different. It is like two completely different persons
driving the same brand of a car.
I remember when the war against Iraq began. Saddam Hussein held a
speech and it was televised. He looked like exactly like Saddam and
talked exactly like Saddam but the reporters said that the CIA has not
yet verified that he really is Saddam or one of this ten
doppelgangers. In other words: even if two people look like the same
egg, they might be different persons and the CIA seem to know that
APP: What happened to the real L. Ron Hubbard?
Barbara Schwarz: Was murdered.
APP: By DM?
Barbara Schwarz: No, medical doctors and psychs killed him upon order
of the German secret service. You may call them also SEGNPMSS. But I
bet that DM knew that the Vistaril guy was not Ron and he did not
inform the authorities but instead took Scientology over with a will/
declaration that was forged and never written or signed by the
original Ron. Having power over Scientology was more important to him
than honoring Ron and clearing the outrageous crimes that were
committed against him by the German secret service and psychs. As a
Scientologist, if you are involved in deceit, you would know that the
overt/motivator sequence will hit you hard. It seems that DM but also
Marty's Doppelganger and also others wrongfully think that they will
not get caught and that there is no overt/motivator sequence and that
makes then into non-Scientologists.
APP: Overt/motivator sequence? What does this mean?
It means that L. Ron Hubbard has found out that whenever people do
something bad, they are pulling in something bad, they are hit by
something bad. Then they "pay it back" and commit a new crime and
their problems grow and grow and they become more effect to the
problems if they don't change their ways and become ethical.
APP: What happened to his body?
Barbara Schwarz: Dismantled in a medical clinic.
APP: His will was forged?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes. There were lots of imposter wills. One they
changing one day before the impostor died. None of the versions were
L. Ron Hubbard's will.
APP: Where is the real L. Ron Hubbard's will?
Barbara Schwarz: Guess in a safe of the German Secret Service or was
APP: The FBI confirmed that the fingerprints on the dead body matched
the dead corpse that they found in the motor home in San Obispo
Barbara Schwarz: Sure they matched because the finger prints belonged
to the impostor in the first place.
APP: Isn't there anything that you have not figured out?
Barbara Schwarz: Not much.
APP: Is there anything that you want to say to David Miscavige or
Barbara Schwarz: YES! CONFESS THE FULL TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
TRUTH, THE BOTH OF YOU!
APP: Is there anything that you want to say to the real Marty?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes! I love you, Marty, more than any words can say!
Can't wait to be in your arms and stay there forever and ever and ever
and ever and ever!
APP: Anything you want to tell me?
Barbara Schwarz: Yes, I have to go now and attend some other things.
APP: What is your solution for all the problems?
Barbara Schwarz: The truth spoken out and sworn before Congress and
courts by Scientologists and other people who know the truth and to
publish them all over the world. I don't know any other solution.
APP: Thanks for the interview.
Barbara Schwarz: You are welcome.