Was Karloff and Lugosi enemies?
Ed Luskey
Hey there fellow monster fans,
You all know these were two of the biggest names in Horror
movies back in the days. I seem to remember hearing or reading
something about Bela and Boris as being enemies, or jealous of
each other. Is there any truth to that?
I know they played in what? 7 or 8 movies together? How did
they get along on the set?
I have seen the video Mondo Lugosi a long time ago and there
was that little scene of them playing Chess together, please
refresh my memory, what was that all about?
Also, I think there is a book available about them and thier
movies together, what is the title and who is the author? Is
it worth the money?
Thanks for reading
stay ascared
Ed
P.S. am going to Monster Con and can't wait to get the new
Gary Rhodes Lugosi book!
ArachnomaniA
In article <33C9A6...@idirect.com>, Ed Luskey <grt...@idirect.com> wrote:
>Hey there fellow monster fans,
>
>You all know these were two of the biggest names in Horror
>movies back in the days. I seem to remember hearing or reading
>something about Bela and Boris as being enemies, or jealous of
>each other. Is there any truth to that?
A & E did a great episode of their _Rivals_ show on the two of them. I'm
not sure if it's available on tape through them, but it probably is.
Basically Bela turned down the role of _Frankenstein_ because it was not
"glamorous enough" for him or something to that effect. An unknown Boris
got cast and as a result continually got the better parts. Bela wound up
having to play a lesser role to Boris causing a lot of the resentment on
his side. I'm completely blanking on the name of the movie, but it was
one the two of them did together where Bela had the bigger role. When it
came out there was a lot of negative backlash against it due to it's
content and as a result Bela got a lot of that backlash. He was again back
to the lesser roles. The whole thing was quite sad due to the incredibly
bad luck Bela kept having. Boris made a very kind comment upon hearing
about his death and as far as they showed there never held any real ill
feelings for him. Sorry to be so vague, but I saw this about a year ago.
>I know they played in what? 7 or 8 movies together? How did
>they get along on the set?
The show didn't really hint at any fights on the set. I got the feeling
they just avoided each other when need be.
>Also, I think there is a book available about them and thier
>movies together, what is the title and who is the author? Is
>it worth the money?
I haven't read this one. _The Complete Films of Bela Lugosi_ is great and
the new book reviewed in _Entertainment Weekly_ not too long ago is supposed
to be THE book on Bela.
>P.S. am going to Monster Con and can't wait to get the new
>Gary Rhodes Lugosi book!
Do tell how it is. I'm picking it up eventually, but would like to hear
a newsgrouper's review as I'm sure others here would.
Kathy (always a fan of Bela)
spi...@mcs.com
stt
> Also, I think there is a book available about them and thier
> movies together, what is the title and who is the author? Is
> it worth the money?
>
In all probability, you are refering to "Karloff and Lugosi: The Story
of a Haunting Collaboration" by Greg Mank, one of the premier reviewers
of Golden Age horror films. The book is published by McFarland and
should be available either directly from them or through the major
internet book dealers (i.e., amazon.com). Like all McFarland books, it
is a bit pricey (around $40) but it is an interesting and very
informative read.
Jack Herman
Karloff and Lugosi were rivals in that they both represented a certain kind
of picture and were often considered for the same roles. They appeared
together in eight films. The Gift of Gab (a collection of comedy skits
where the two never appeared together), The Black Cat, The Invisible Ray,
The Raven, You'll Find Out (a Kay Kaiser musical comedy with Karloff,
Lugosi and Peter Lorre as the heavies), Son of Frankenstein, Black Friday
and The Body Snatcher.
Here's the short version of the rivalry. Ultimately Karloff gernally
dimissed Lugosi as an actor until Lugosi totally upstaged him (while
Karloff was playing his signature character, no less) in Son of
Frankenstein. Karloff was so angry over it he never played the monster
again. Then he was so adamant against ever playing opposite Lugosi that he
forced an actor to switch roles with him in Black Friday so that they would
have no scenes together. Although Lugosi had only a small supporting role
the makers of the Body Snatchers kept the news Lugosi was even in the film
from Karloff until some of the shooting had begun for fear he'd quit the
picture.
Lugosi realized that Karloff's entire career was created by his having
turned down the role of the Frankenstein monster. (Although had Lugosi
stuck to the project with original director Robert Florry, it ultimately
wouldn't have been half as well realized a film and Lugosi had essentially
made the correct decision in abandoning it.) During the original horror
picture boom of the early 1930s Universal was looking for "the next Lon
Chaney" and originally thought they had found him in Bela Lugosi. But they
were angered that Lugosi would turn down a Universal role, so they took
their "crown" back from Lugosi and annointed Karloff the new "King of
Horror"-- only to largely ignore Karloff themsleves during the 1940s in
favor of Lon Chaney Jr!
Karloff had an outgoing, gregarious nature and an adaptability that enabled
him promote himself very effectively and to supplement his acting career
with stage and television appearances. Lugosi's career was hurt by his drug
adiction (orginally caused by perscription medication given under medical
supervision), his naturally reclusive nature and a some terrible bad luck
causing a string of potential high-profile projects to fall through. It is
doubtful that the two of them truly felt the sort of animosity as suggested
by the film "Ed Wood." Apart from astudeously avoiding him, Karloff was
more dismissive of Lugosi than hateful. Lugosi was probably simply more
envious of Karloff for receiving breaks that he never had the chance to
enjoy.
Jack Herman
jhe...@onr.com
Ed Luskey <grt...@idirect.com> wrote in article
<33C9A6...@idirect.com>...
> Hey there fellow monster fans,
>
> You all know these were two of the biggest names in Horror
> movies back in the days. I seem to remember hearing or reading
> something about Bela and Boris as being enemies, or jealous of
> each other. Is there any truth to that?
> I know they played in what? 7 or 8 movies together? How did
> they get along on the set?
> I have seen the video Mondo Lugosi a long time ago and there
> was that little scene of them playing Chess together, please
> refresh my memory, what was that all about?
>
> Also, I think there is a book available about them and thier
> movies together, what is the title and who is the author? Is
> it worth the money?
>
> Thanks for reading
> stay ascared
> Ed
>
Ed Luskey
<<<talking about Boris & Bela's relationship>>>
ArachnomaniA wrote:
> Basically Bela turned down the role of _Frankenstein_ because it was not
> "glamorous enough" for him or something to that effect.
I believe it was because there was speaking parts for that role. I guess Bela
just couldn't fathom going under all the makeup and not talking. Where is the
glamour and success in that he probably thought.
>An unknown Boris
> got cast and as a result continually got the better parts. Bela wound up
> having to play a lesser role to Boris causing a lot of the resentment on
> his side.
This is where I get lost. Yes Boris' career skyrocketed because of the Monster
roll, but Bela landed an equally important role in Dracula. Dracula was very
successful but that's what went wrong for Bela, he ended up being type cast as
the blood sucker.
>I'm completely blanking on the name of the movie, but it was
> one the two of them did together where Bela had the bigger role. When it
> came out there was a lot of negative backlash against it due to it's
> content and as a result Bela got a lot of that backlash
Could it be "The Raven"? Bela was the mad Dcotor Vollin, he altered
Bateman's (Karloff) face with plastic surgery and completely dominated the
film. Reading the new Lugosi book by Gary Don Rhodes it says that audiences
back then thought the film was "one of the more sadistic horror films of the
day". Bela probably got the backlash because he was the sadistic doctor.
>He was again back to the lesser roles. The whole thing was quite sad due to >the incredibly bad luck Bela kept having.
Someone recently told me that Boris was asked why he thought Bela got the
inferior roles and Boris replied by saying that he blames Bela's disinterest in
bettering his English.
>Boris made a very kind comment upon hearing
> about his death and as far as they showed there never held any real ill
> feelings for him.
Well, someone at the Monster Bash asked Bela Lugosi Jr. the question we are
now discussing "was Bela and Boris enemies" (perhaps the man read it here?)
and Bela responded by saying that they were not enemies, they competed for
the same roles obviously but they did not have a dislike for each other. They
didn't associate off the set but that doesn't mean they hated each other.
> The show didn't really hint at any fights on the set. I got the feeling
> they just avoided each other when need be.
pretty much correct, see above.
> I haven't read this one. _The Complete Films of Bela Lugosi_ is great and
> the new book reviewed in _Entertainment Weekly_ not too long ago is >supposed to be THE book on Bela.
I just bought the new book at the Monster Bash. It's called "Lugosi" and it's
written by Gary Don Rhodes who is a super nice man, I talked with him for a
few minutes and he signed my book with some very nice comments, practically
takes up the whole 3rd page! :-) A great guy to talk to. He also looks alot like
Ed Wood believe it or not. And yes, I have also read that it is THEE book on
Lugosi. I haven't had a chance to read it all yet but it looks very promising.
I'll probably post a review after I'm done.
> Do tell how it is. I'm picking it up eventually, but would like to hear
> a newsgrouper's review as I'm sure others here would.
watch for some comments later Kathy and all.
> Kathy (always a fan of Bela)
Yes, I do remember that, from our previous discussions a long long time ago.
I don't see how a fan of Bela could go wrong with this book.
see ya
Ed
"I don't drink....wine"
John Ambrose
I've been a huge fan of Bela and Boris since the day I was born,
practically. But, I'm not really an expert horror historian.
That having been said, it's always been my understanding that Bela and
Boris were NOT off-screen enemies, other than that they competed for
several roles. I though the portrayal of Boris-hating portrayal of
Bela in Tim Burton's ED WOOD was horrendous, bordering on slander.
Burton had Bela saying stuff like: "Karloff doesn't deserve to smell
my shit."
Is this fair? Even if Bela DID hold some kind of resentment, is this
how he should be presented, especially to people who otherwise are not
familiar with Bela?
I'l never forgive Tim Burton for this disgrace.
Nelson Fernandez
This books sounds like a good read, what's the name of the book and
who publishes it?
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:59:03 -0400, Ed Luskey <grt...@idirect.com>
wrote:
Boyd Campbell
Ed Luskey wrote:
>
>
> This is where I get lost. Yes Boris' career skyrocketed because of the
> Monster roll, but Bela landed an equally important role in Dracula.
> Dracula was very successful but that's what went wrong for Bela, he
> ended up being type cast as the blood sucker.
Wasn't Dracula first tho? It's alwyas been my understanding that
Bella was offered the creature because of his fame in the Dracula
part.
--
A. Boyd Campbell, II
Email:Cam...@netdoor.com
King Kong
http://www2.netdoor.com/~campbab/kong.html
Willis O'Brien
http://www2.netdoor.com/~campbab/Obie.html
Cheryl
I think that for whatever reasons both of thier careers worked out well
for both of them and definately for us. I am sure there was resentment
and maybe jealousy at times, but alas, show biz is just that,
biz..competitive, ect. Thank goodness those two great men achieved what
they did, for all our sakes!
--
CARNIVAL OF HORRORS! This is THE BIGGEST West
coast Halloween event ever! Haunted House,
Monster movie theatre, Meet the stars & more!
Nightmarez Cafe http://www.nightmarez.com
Derrick Hussey
At the recent Monster Bash., which I was fortunate enough
to attend, this question was posed repeatedly to both Sara
Karloff and Bela Lugosi Jr. They both said that while a
certain degree of professional rivalry existed between
their parents (after all, they often were competing for
the same roles) there was no personal rivalry. They each
said that they had -never- heard their parent speak ill
of the other in public or private.
Regarding the Tim Burton film, Bela Jr. said that while
he really liked Landau's portrayal of his dad in the later
years of his life, Burton's film was full of errors, some
small and some enormous. Bela Jr. also noted that he
(Bela Jr)had known Ed Wood, had a transcription of several days of
interviews which he had paid Wood to participate in,
and also had the unpublished autobiography of Ed Wood.
He implied that he might release it at some point, and
also suggested strongly that he might write a personal
memoir of his father, but he expressed concern that
the market was saturated with Lugosi after the ED WOOD
film.
I say, BRING IT ON, BELA JR! There is always room on my
shelf for another Lugosi book, especially one written
from the perspective of Lugosi's own son. Lugosi has
suffered from a lack of serious scholarship, now partially
ameliorated by the new Rhodes film and book, but Bela is
still woefully neglected.
As a collector of the films of Bela Lugosi, (and to thank
anyone who read this far) I offer up copies of rare
Lugosi films from my list to the first person or two who
contact me by email. Public domain, no rights given or
implied, etc.
Derrick
In article <33d66a9d...@news.mindspring.com>,
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Nix Zeitgeist
On the topic of Bela and Boris, there was a cable television program on
A&E called "Rivals" which discusses exactly this thing. I didnt see it
myself (didnt have cable yet), but a friend told me that this program
seemed to summise that Lugosi may have been a little resentful of
Karloff, and Karloff pitied Lugosi.
Has anyone seen this program?
BillyBond
>Here's the short version of the rivalry. Ultimately Karloff gernally
>dimissed Lugosi as an actor until Lugosi totally upstaged him (while
>Karloff was playing his signature character, no less) in Son of
>Frankenstein. Karloff was so angry over it he never played the monster
>again. Then he was so adamant against ever playing opposite Lugosi that
he
>forced an actor to switch roles with him in Black Friday so that they
would
>have no scenes together. Although Lugosi had only a small supporting role
>the makers of the Body Snatchers kept the news Lugosi was even in the
film
>from Karloff until some of the shooting had begun for fear he'd quit
the>picture.
NONE of this is true. Where on Earth did you ever hear anything of this
nature? Karloff knew that Lugosi was going to be in THE BODY SNATCHER, of
course; it would have been completely contrary to his contract for that to
have been kept from him. In fact, Lugosi was pencilled in for the role
that Henry Daniell ended up playing -- and Karloff knew that, too.
He never swore he wouldn't act with Lugosi again; he never made
another movie as the Frankenstein Monster because he was >too old< and not
in good physical shape. He was IMPRESSED, not offended, by Lugosi's
performance in SON OF FRANKENSTEIN.
BillyBond
>) During the original horror
>picture boom of the early 1930s Universal was looking for "the next Lon
>Chaney" and originally thought they had found him in Bela Lugosi. But
they
>were angered that Lugosi would turn down a Universal role, so they took
>their "crown" back from Lugosi and annointed Karloff the new "King of
>Horror"-- only to largely ignore Karloff themsleves during the 1940s in
>favor of Lon Chaney Jr!
Again, this is sheer fantasy. Universal (in this case, Carl Laemmle Jr.)
cast Lugosi in MURDERS IN THE RUE MORGUE after he'd turned down
FRANKENSTEIN; he wouldn't have done that had they been annoyed with him.
Karloff didn't do many Universal movies in the 40s for several
reasons, none of which had anything to do with the studio "ignoring" him.
He was on Broadway in ARSENIC AND OLD LACE; he had a contract with
Columbia; Universal was trying to develop NEW stars. They DID use Karloff
in HOUSE OF FRANKENSTEIN, after all.
George Sassani
I just had the pleasure of spending time with both Bela Lugosi, Jr. and
Sara Karloff and I can tell you that none of them ever heard their
fathers utter a bad word about the other.
Robert Wise, who directed both in the Body Snatcher, told me a couple of
years ago that he was impressed at how patient Karloff was with Bela who
was going through a bad time during that film. If Karloff was so upset at
working with Lugosi why would he treat him so kindly when this would have
been the perfect chance to upstage him?
Karloff stopped playing the Monster because of age and back trouble. His
wardrobe was quite heavy. There have been a few films since that included
both men. They even played an annual chess game for charity.
Gino Sassani
Derrick Hussey
In article <199707292...@livin013.wwnet.net>,
Yes, I traded for a copy of this on video a while back.
It's good entertainment for a fan of either actor, but
not much more. Basically it examines their lives point by
point to show how they can seem to be -exact- opposites.
Starts with "Bela came from poverty, Boris came from
wealth" and goes on from there. The professional rivalry
which they admittedly must have felt is hyped up for
sensational value to the point where they seem like they
hated each other. Personally, I don't buy it. If what
their children said at the recent Monster Bash is to be
believed there was nothing more than professional rivalry;
no personal hatred.
Derrick
Mark Coyle
There was nothing open but Lugosi was a little jealous of Karloff =
getting top billing and plum roles. Lugosi was often frustrated by his =
accent and limitations on his English (never seemed a problem to me). =
Karloff was I believe always gracious and kind to Lugosi. You can't =
blame poor old Bela, those PRC films say it all. I know it is =
fashionable to like Ed Wood films but imagine being reduced to them. it =
was a crime really.
regards
Mark Coyle
The Gore-met
BillyBond wrote:
>
> >Here's the short version of the rivalry. Ultimately Karloff gernally
> >dimissed Lugosi as an actor until Lugosi totally upstaged him (while
> >Karloff was playing his signature character, no less) in Son of
> >Frankenstein. Karloff was so angry over it he never played the monster
> >again. Then he was so adamant against ever playing opposite Lugosi that
> he
> >forced an actor to switch roles with him in Black Friday so that they
> would
> >have no scenes together. Although Lugosi had only a small supporting role
> >the makers of the Body Snatchers kept the news Lugosi was even in the
> film
> >from Karloff until some of the shooting had begun for fear he'd quit
> the>picture.
>
Where did you get this nonsense from? There was no rivalry, Boris was
too kind a man for any of that. While none of us were there, to my
knowledge there was really nothing but mutual respect and professional
courtesy between the two, no more, no less.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
"We have a lifetime to know your flesh..."
Terror! Mayhem! Bloody horror!
The Galloping Gore-met: http://www.interlog.com/~goremet
--------------------------------------------------------
Nix Zeitgeist
Boyd Campbell <cam...@mail.netdoor.com> wrote:
> Wasn't Dracula first tho? It's alwyas been my understanding that
> Bella was offered the creature because of his fame in the Dracula
> part.
--
Does this sig thing work?
BillyBond
>There was nothing open but Lugosi was a little jealous of Karloff =
>getting top billing and plum roles.
On what do you base this?
BillyBond
>Where did you get this nonsense from?
Can't you tell the difference between text someone is QUOTING and text
someone is ORIGINATING? The message you thought was from me was one I was
quoting.
Chase
Saw them together this weekend on the Sci-fi channel in the movie BLACK
CAT. Not bad actually, except the ending was a little soapy.
BillyBond <bill...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970803004...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Nix Zeitgeist
Whether they were competitive or not, have you ever seen Karloff and
Lugosi acting head-to-head? I just happened to have watched "The Black
Cat" against yesterday and was quite stunned by how much Karloff
out-acted Lugosi. Granted, their roles were very very different; perhaps
Lugosi was miscast. He did mad quite well, but I dont think he did
heartstick equally convincingly.
--
**Show no mercy for my proper e-mail address.
13th Floor
I personally think Karloff was the better actor, but Lugosi had several
challenges, not least of which his limited command of English, which
held him back.
Nix Zeitgeist
13th Floor <flo...@valuserve.com> wrote:
> I personally think Karloff was the better actor, but Lugosi had several
> challenges, not least of which his limited command of English, which
> held him back.
probably a great advantage for him.
--
I'm afraid that no one around me understands my potato.