smatterings
Safari Whitelion
took a magic potion sometime in the area of 2 Junes ago (About a year
and a half). In that potion was the pure refined powers of the winds of
change. From there my life and spirit was hit with a tornado the like of
which I am still in awe. If one ever wants to seek out the powers of
change you have my best wishes and I hope you have fortune and destiny
on your side.
Sometimes it can be rough to worship tornadoes, and I wouldn't recommend
it. The Buddha says that we will all arrive at somewhat of the same
point, but our journey's would be different.
Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
leave only the spirit there for a journey. Since then I have gone on
many a journey. I would not recommend my path. Aside from the affects it
might have on the body, the potion is incredibly psycho reactive.
Psychotic breaks are common, but I have yet to really have one. That is
mostly due to my reality.
Before I go on, I am talking about a dissasociative drug. I took it
because I like to play in the psyche. The places that I have explored
are not for everyone, and few can handle it. I am not saying this drug
made me smarter. It is inherently stupid to try to destroy reality and
do drugs. There are all sorts of happy things out there. Also don't
worry I am not playing with stupid drugs like heroin or cocaine or stuff
like that. I wanted a trip. I wanted an adventure into the mind, and the
worlds we build within. I chose carefully as I did not want to be just
some crack ho just out for the next high. The places I have gone
sometimes do not feel good. Some are dark and scary and I had to go over
that wall I had to see what is on the other side.
Impatience, I am sure there is some spiritual afterlife, but I wanted to
play now, and I cant because I am imprisoned. I am imprisoned by the
five senses in this body. That is what is at the core of shape shifting.
The knowledge that no matter what the body is just a vessel to interact
with the world. It is something we are chained to, and we get our
information from it's sensors, and that is beamed back and interpreted
by our spirit. But in the annihilation I have experienced I have caught a
glimpse into the way those perceptions are processed and through that
have understood more than I ever wanted to know.
I did not know it at the time, but spiritually I was unlocked. I was in
a rut at the time, and in essence I was about to die spiritually. I was
about to become one of the many people who just exist and go on, but
they are like ants in that they really do very little aside from
perpetuate the species. I used to think that it was a horrible thing for
all the sports and physically fit dumbasses of the world to breed.
Surely the stock would have been a bunch of morons, but that is not
true. The fact is that people think, and it is not a matter of physical
evolution that is our next step.
The human male creates millions of sperm cells that when ejaculated into
the females uterus go swimming in search of an egg. Each one of these
sperm are a life twitching and trying to be a reality. Fate and
circumstance will eliminate most, and still that one gets through and
creates a life. In a way what if spirits were like that. We are this
budding consciousness and many just fizzle out. The do not think beyond
the scope of their lives and they are happy for it. I am not saying
there is something wrong with those people. Some people just want to
live a good life. In the grand scheme of things they just burn out and
become part of the environment like in the case of the sperm.
I called down the tornado because the doors were open. I called it down
on my life, and the fate and circumstance took over. Through a huge
twisted logic thing and the desire to destroy myself because I was
unhappy. I could not be myself. The person that I was was so despised
and hated. It was so perverted and dirty and all of a sudden the wall
was shattered. and of course, having not recognized the reality of the
destructive spell I had cast, I plodded on.
It is odd that criminal activity would coincide with the spiritual, but
the darkness is a part of us, and that to must be put into the equation.
I have been convicted and punished for the crime of identity theft. I
spent 3 months in jail. Not the real place, mine was sort of a barracks.
Still I learned some things. It was where my life was heading. In all
honesty the jail that I was in was more like an asylum where the inmates
are not brought in front of doctors. Some of them regarded it as a step
into their future. On my side I turned myself inward to find the
problems that were eating away at me.
I pulled the safari blade across my own throat. I did not have a
psychotic break on drugs, but I did have a psychotic venting in jail.
Jail is almost like an aesthetic life. You have no real belongings and
you just go where people send you. It was in prison when I realized that
we were all imprisoned in these forms. Everyone who lives has a jail.
The cell boundaries are your skin and senses. Here your consciousness
sits. Here it resides, but it is as we explore disassociating the spirit
from the body that we discover the true limits imposed upon the spirit
by the body.
The body is a vessel designed to travel through space time at a set
speed, and your senses are transferring signals to your conscious spirit
at set intervals. However, it is under dissacociatives that this reality
breaks down and certain things become obvious.
You can process so much more information than just what is given. Like
Big Blue calculates thousands of games within it's memory banks and
extracts the possibilities of one move e on a chess board so can your
mind. Yes, even those of you who think your mind is slow or encumbered.
Those are physical time restraints. I have seen the end of time, and the
beginning. It isn't hard, but one has to grasp the idea of the speed of
thought. I am not talking the biochemical physical reaction that goes on
in my mind, but rather the intricately powerful force that is ideas.
All of existence can be perceived in a moment by a god. It is by tuning
one's self to the universe that one can see the beginning and end and
grasp the hum that is existence. Existence is not this physical crap,
but rather the conscious knowledge of itself. Existence is like a
harmonic wave in that every part of it vibrates at it's own pitch in
unison with the environment around it to achieve a general tone. This is
the thought of god. Like the resonation of our voice, It can be seen as
the overlapping waves of sound, but it achieves a tone through the
combining. In essence all identity is obliterated in the din, but it is
that identity which gives the great noise existence and without the
identities the great noise would cease to exist.
It is not beyond us to perceive these things, but beware the search for
meaning is in itself pointless because we make it up as we go along. We
are, after all gods of our own universe, when the veil is lifted. We are
made and I think we are the young. Our first steps into existence if you
will come from our ideas now. Here is where we learn to walk. But
because the spirit world is devoid of a physical body which requires
motion our mind needs to learn to move through the fabric of existence.
Our spirit can touch it and define it in simple moments, and vast
lifetimes.
Think of it like a science. If you can perceive it then you can imagine
it. If you can imagine it in your minds eye and create an existence
there you can travel anywhere by thought. You just need to create it in
your minds eye and then enter it. That is how god can be everywhere at
once because he is not limited by the physical veil that has been pulled
over his spirit. He can contemplate any of the places of existence in
his mind and then make them. By making them and entering them he travels
to them by pure thought.
Thought can create a body to interact. I wonder if this is some sort of
construct along those lines. Imagine you are on a big field full of nerf
balls. Now you know how it would feel to be impacted by the nerf balls.
In your minds eye you can create that universe and even a body that
feels the impact of those balls and exist as it.
This it where tantric meditation, hallucinatory and dissacociative drugs
come in to play. As we separate our conscious from the body we begin to
perceive things in a more immediate and pure existence. Your mind now
know the body and the feelings and can emulate it from then on. As many
have seen in their dreams. This is your mind's eye. This is your
creation. It is not something to be feared, but rather who you are at
it's purest. Unfettered by a body, but having a body that exists because
of the minds perception of the impulses in the environment.
What is identity then? How do I know there aren't a thousand me's running
around out there? Well that is a question we need to explore. With the
ideas of cloning I am sure some time in the future things will be very
strange philosophically. There is no problem though. You see Identity is
deviant thought. Identity in itself is a recognition of ones own
existence as a part of the greater whole. However, it is the deviant
thought that creates myself in this moment.
That is all for now
The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
against him.
>Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
> had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
>leave only the spirit there for a journey. Since then I have gone on
>many a journey. I would not recommend my path. Aside from the affects it
>might have on the body, the potion is incredibly psycho reactive.
>Psychotic breaks are common, but I have yet to really have one. That is
>mostly due to my reality.
Hmmph, This is the sort of rubbish that takeing drugs produces.
You need some good honest marx and engels to dispel this damaing
rubbish about "afterlifes" and suchlike.
It is Scientific Socialism that has disproved god and the like.
---
PaInt iT rEd cuZ it go fAstUH!
Safari Whitelion
> Hmmph, This is the sort of rubbish that takeing drugs produces.
too true.
>
> You need some good honest marx and engels to dispel this damaing
> rubbish about "afterlifes" and suchlike.
All of this existence is based on need, but yet this is one thing that I
would not call a need. Of course, you do realize that your theory is
wrong as neither of their philosophies has cured me to be like you. Oh
wait, I was supposed to have not read stuff beforehand. btw you have a
whole lot of time to do some philisophical reading when you are forced
to sit around for 3 months.
>
> It is Scientific Socialism that has disproved god and the like.
You have disproved god? I guess then there is nothing more for us to
discuss.
Princess Safari
The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
against him.
>too true.
Admitting that is the first step to your recovery.
>All of this existence is based on need, but yet this is one thing that I
>would not call a need. Of course, you do realize that your theory is
>wrong as neither of their philosophies has cured me to be like you. Oh
>wait, I was supposed to have not read stuff beforehand.
some people would rather place selfish interests ahead of prolterian
internationlism. :(
>btw you have a
>whole lot of time to do some philisophical reading when you are forced
>to sit around for 3 months.
I have an A-level in philsophy, the result of two years study of
philosophy. So there!
>You have disproved god? I guess then there is nothing more for us to
>discuss.
Not me, others.
But by revealing the cause of religion and belief in god, it is
disproved in the same way that revealing how a magician did his trick
makes it cease to be "magic".
Safari Whitelion
> Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
> great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
> against him.
>
>
>>too true.
>
>
> Admitting that is the first step to your recovery.
What if I am not trying to recover?
>
>
>>All of this existence is based on need, but yet this is one thing that I
>>would not call a need. Of course, you do realize that your theory is
>>wrong as neither of their philosophies has cured me to be like you. Oh
>>wait, I was supposed to have not read stuff beforehand.
>
>
> some people would rather place selfish interests ahead of prolterian
> internationlism. :(
Some people assume because they read they are wise.
>
>
>>btw you have a
>>whole lot of time to do some philisophical reading when you are forced
>>to sit around for 3 months.
>
>
> I have an A-level in philsophy, the result of two years study of
> philosophy. So there!
>
An a-level? How many tests do you have to pass to get that?
>
>>You have disproved god? I guess then there is nothing more for us to
>>discuss.
>
>
> Not me, others.
Oh, so others have disproved god, you can only tell me about it, and you
still have very little of your own to say.
>
> But by revealing the cause of religion and belief in god, it is
> disproved in the same way that revealing how a magician did his trick
> makes it cease to be "magic".
Thank you for telling me. However, it would seem unless you have
something of your own to say we have very little to discuss. In all
honesty, I didn't come here to have conversations with books I should
read. Whether god exists or not it is clear you are a sheep.
Safari
The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
against him.
>The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena wrote:
>> Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
>> great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
>> against him.
>>
>>
>>>too true.
>>
>>
>> Admitting that is the first step to your recovery.
>
>What if I am not trying to recover?
There were once camps for comrades who had forgotten that they were
comrades.
Camps for germans who had forgotten that they were germans too.
>>>All of this existence is based on need, but yet this is one thing that I
>>>would not call a need. Of course, you do realize that your theory is
>>>wrong as neither of their philosophies has cured me to be like you. Oh
>>>wait, I was supposed to have not read stuff beforehand.
>>
>>
>> some people would rather place selfish interests ahead of prolterian
>> internationlism. :(
>
>Some people assume because they read they are wise.
I know that I am.
For example I can say that dictatorships are inherently more
inefficient than democracies within certain limits because they place
even less limit on infighting and corruption and indeed such things
are usually encouraged in order to keep subordinates occupied and in
their place, tho' that is not to say that such things occur in our
democracies, tho' perhaps dictatorship of the bourgeois is more appros
for them.
>>>btw you have a
>>>whole lot of time to do some philisophical reading when you are forced
>>>to sit around for 3 months.
>>
>>
>> I have an A-level in philsophy, the result of two years study of
>> philosophy. So there!
>>
>An a-level? How many tests do you have to pass to get that?
Umm... Lots. It's learning by rote and they have to see that you've
got what they're trying to instil you with.
>>>You have disproved god? I guess then there is nothing more for us to
>>>discuss.
>>
>>
>> Not me, others.
>
>Oh, so others have disproved god, you can only tell me about it, and you
>still have very little of your own to say.
The same applies to you. You're just spouting off the same old tired
egotistical eastern philosophy mish mash rubbish which cannot offer
any solutions to anything.
The works of Marx and Engel's however are more relevant than ever now,
and are just and fresh and radical as they were 100 years ago, more so
indeed.
>> But by revealing the cause of religion and belief in god, it is
>> disproved in the same way that revealing how a magician did his trick
>> makes it cease to be "magic".
>
>Thank you for telling me. However, it would seem unless you have
>something of your own to say we have very little to discuss. In all
>honesty, I didn't come here to have conversations with books I should
>read. Whether god exists or not it is clear you are a sheep.
Better a sheep than a lamb chop. :(
Blackbear
"Safari Whitelion"
> Well, it has been a while. I think I will make a nice long post here. I
> took a magic potion sometime in the area of 2 Junes ago (About a year
> and a half). In that potion was the pure refined powers of the winds of
> change. From there my life and spirit was hit with a tornado the like of
> which I am still in awe. If one ever wants to seek out the powers of
> change you have my best wishes and I hope you have fortune and destiny
> on your side.
Good to have you posting again. I don't recommend taking any potions
to bring about change in one's life, change comes, it is a constant of our
universe. The hominid tendency is to resist change, resisting seems to
make the whole ordeal painful.
>
> Sometimes it can be rough to worship tornadoes, and I wouldn't recommend
> it. The Buddha says that we will all arrive at somewhat of the same
> point, but our journey's would be different.
>
Is this accurate? Do you actually worship tornadoes? In my own
cultural background we regard them as people. They do seem to have
a personality. Some people call them witkotke (crazy). I hold them
in awe, personally and they have been a part of my life from earliest
memories (it is Oklahoma here afterall).
Were you instead being rhetorical, meaning that you appreciate the
changes which have come into your life since that time?
> Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
> had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
> leave only the spirit there for a journey. Since then I have gone on
> many a journey. I would not recommend my path. Aside from the affects it
> might have on the body, the potion is incredibly psycho reactive.
> Psychotic breaks are common, but I have yet to really have one. That is
> mostly due to my reality.
>
I don't believe that psycho-active drugs lend much toward true
insight. Because of my heritage I have taken part in Peyote ceremonies
and I derived less enlightenment through those forms of ceremony
than through ceremony which actively seeks out the spirit. I can not
think of any instance where psychotic breaks have taken place among
adherents.
> Before I go on, I am talking about a dissasociative <snip>
> Some are dark and scary and I had to go over
> that wall I had to see what is on the other side.
>
I think Peyote can be classed in that category. I recommend a
different approach to the less-seen world which some would name
the spirit world.
> Impatience, I am sure there is some spiritual afterlife, but I wanted to
> play now, and I cant because I am imprisoned. I am imprisoned by the
> five senses in this body. That is what is at the core of shape shifting.
Terry Pratchett wrote some interesting stuff along this vein in his
discworld series. One key question was, does the vessel dictate
that which is contained within it? He uses a couple examples.
Witches in his world can borrow the shape of an animal and he even
has a 'werewolf curse' the curse being that if you spend too much
time as a wolf, you'll end up as a wolf, maybe with a few weird
memories but otherwise, just a wolf. The next example he uses
is the pitcher of water. The water conforms to the vessels shape
but does the vessel change the nature of the water?
> The knowledge that no matter what the body is just a vessel to interact
> with the world. It is something we are chained to, and we get our
> information from it's sensors, and that is beamed back and interpreted
> by our spirit. But in the annihilation I have experienced I have caught a
> glimpse into the way those perceptions are processed and through that
> have understood more than I ever wanted to know.
>
I don't agree with the first statement somewhat. It's the academic
question of brain/mind or body/spirit. The brain can be quantified
but is the mind a function of the brain? Is living a function of spirit?
> I did not know it at the time, but spiritually I was unlocked. I was in
> a rut at the time, and in essence I was about to die spiritually. I was
> about to become one of the many people who just exist and go on, but
> they are like ants in that they really do very little aside from
> perpetuate the species. I used to think that it was a horrible thing for
> all the sports and physically fit dumbasses of the world to breed.
I do recognize 'spirit' and through simple observation and my
tendency to anthropomorphize, I see the spirit as appreciating diversity
above most anything else. There are people who thrive and gain a
great appreciation of life through their jobs and if I looked at others
feeling superior, regarding them as inferiors, I have in one quick stroke
placed myself above 'spirit' as I understand the word.
> Surely the stock would have been a bunch of morons, but that is not
> true. The fact is that people think, and it is not a matter of physical
> evolution that is our next step.
>
I'm not sure about physical evolution either. I do think that we
all can rise above our physical and mental and even spiritual limitations.
> The human male <snip>
>. I am not saying
> there is something wrong with those people. Some people just want to
> live a good life. In the grand scheme of things they just burn out and
> become part of the environment like in the case of the sperm.
>
What is wrong with being part of the environment? How about the
idea that as tool using creatures we can actually lend aid to our
environment?
> I called down the tornado because the doors were open. I called it down
> on my life, and the fate and circumstance took over. Through a huge
> twisted logic thing and the desire to destroy myself because I was
> unhappy. I could not be myself. The person that I was was so despised
> and hated. It was so perverted and dirty and all of a sudden the wall
> was shattered. and of course, having not recognized the reality of the
> destructive spell I had cast, I plodded on.
>
Even having gone through more than half a century of life I persist
in the belief that people can change themselves. We mitigate those
poor judgments we made in the past by making proper judgments
in the present. Doing this helps pave the road of our future as well.
> It is odd that criminal activity would coincide with the spiritual, but
> the darkness is a part of us,<snip>
>On my side I turned myself inward to find the
> problems that were eating away at me.
>
In the Chao Yi it is written:
'In fear and trembling a person will set their life in order'
Which, if I understand properly means that you have to get shaken
up before you really try to do something about yourself otherwise,
since we naturally resist change, we tend to procrastinate doing
those things which would help us place our lives in order.
> <snip>
> It was in prison when I realized that
> we were all imprisoned in these forms. Everyone who lives has a jail.
> The cell boundaries are your skin and senses. Here your consciousness
> sits.
Our limitations define our field of action within life.
> <snip>Here it resides, but it is as we explore disassociating the spirit
> from the body that we discover the true limits imposed upon the spirit
> by the body.
In my own culture we look at this differently. It is in our associating
with spirit which removes those limits, rather than disassociation.
>
> The body is a vessel designed to travel through space time at a set
> speed, and your senses are transferring signals to your conscious spirit
> at set intervals. However, it is under dissacociatives that this reality
> breaks down and certain things become obvious.
>
These sentences were puzzling to me, I am not sure I understand
what you were trying to say. Reality breaking down? Sorry, I did
try to understand your intent.
> You can process so much more information <snip>
> I have seen the end of time, and the
> beginning.
While you may claim this and I will support your right to
claim this, I am dubious. Worse, I don't think there is an
end or beginning of time. I'm not even sure time exists apart
from the observer.
> It isn't hard, but one has to grasp the idea of the speed of
> thought. I am not talking the biochemical physical reaction that goes on
> in my mind, but rather the intricately powerful force that is ideas.
>
Still trying to follow you in hope that I might be able to add
something
meaningful. Ideas can be powerful but they can only exist within a
consciousness, they may propagate to other consciousnesses and they
may even come into reality once someone decides to execute the idea
and bring an idea to fruition in the world around us.
> All of existence can be perceived in a moment by a god. It is by tuning
> one's self to the universe that one can see the beginning and end and
> grasp the hum that is existence. Existence is not this physical crap,
> but rather the conscious knowledge of itself. Existence is like a
> harmonic wave in that every part of it vibrates at it's own pitch in
> unison with the environment around it to achieve a general tone. This is
> the thought of god. Like the resonation of our voice, It can be seen as
> the overlapping waves of sound, but it achieves a tone through the
> combining. In essence all identity is obliterated in the din, but it is
> that identity which gives the great noise existence and without the
> identities the great noise would cease to exist.
>
This sounds like String Theory to me although in particle physics
there are thought to be some particles which travel faster than light
and in which case the start of the journey, the journey itself and
the end of the journey would all be taking place at the same time.
> It is not beyond us to perceive these things, but beware the search for
> meaning is in itself pointless because we make it up as we go along. We
> are, after all gods of our own universe, when the veil is lifted.
There are those who want the answer to the why of things and if
they have that desire, it is not pointless for them to pursue it. As for
us being gods in our own universe, it sounds good if your into
omnipotence. I suppose your viewpoint is varied from my own
and that the statement must have had nuances I did not apprehend.
>We are
> made and I think we are the young. Our first steps into existence if you
> will come from our ideas now. Here is where we learn to walk. But
> because the spirit world is devoid of a physical body which requires
> motion our mind needs to learn to move through the fabric of existence.
> Our spirit can touch it and define it in simple moments, and vast
> lifetimes.
>
I refute the idea that there is no 'physical nature' to spirit. I rather
think
that everything that has a physical nature is an aspect of spirit.
> Think of it like a science. If you can perceive it then you can imagine
> it. If you can imagine it in your minds eye and create an existence
> there you can travel anywhere by thought. You just need to create it in
> your minds eye and then enter it. That is how god can be everywhere at
> once because he is not limited by the physical veil that has been pulled
> over his spirit. He can contemplate any of the places of existence in
> his mind and then make them. By making them and entering them he travels
> to them by pure thought.
>
> Thought can create a body to interact. I wonder if this is some sort of
> construct along those lines. Imagine you are on a big field full of nerf
> balls. Now you know how it would feel to be impacted by the nerf balls.
> In your minds eye you can create that universe and even a body that
> feels the impact of those balls and exist as it.
>
> This it where tantric meditation, hallucinatory and dissacociative drugs
> come in to play. As we separate our conscious from the body we begin to
> perceive things in a more immediate and pure existence. Your mind now
> know the body and the feelings and can emulate it from then on. As many
> have seen in their dreams. This is your mind's eye. This is your
> creation. It is not something to be feared, but rather who you are at
> it's purest. Unfettered by a body, but having a body that exists because
> of the minds perception of the impulses in the environment.
>
Perhaps meditation. Ceremony another. Drugs only change your
biochemistry.
> What is identity then? How do I know there aren't a thousand me's running
> around out there? Well that is a question we need to explore. With the
> ideas of cloning I am sure some time in the future things will be very
> strange philosophically. There is no problem though. You see Identity is
> deviant thought. Identity in itself is a recognition of ones own
> existence as a part of the greater whole. However, it is the deviant
> thought that creates myself in this moment.
>
Are you sure there AREN'T thousands of you running around?
> That is all for now
>
I have tried to follow your discourse, I haven't determined what you
were wanting to impart though.
Blackbear
>
Safari Whitelion
> Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
> great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
> against him.
>
>
>>The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena wrote:
>>
>>>Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
>>>great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
>>>against him.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>too true.
>>>
>>>
>>>Admitting that is the first step to your recovery.
>>
>>What if I am not trying to recover?
>
>
> There were once camps for comrades who had forgotten that they were
> comrades.
>
> Camps for germans who had forgotten that they were germans too.
Does this mean I get to be hitler again?
>
>
>>>>All of this existence is based on need, but yet this is one thing that I
>>>>would not call a need. Of course, you do realize that your theory is
>>>>wrong as neither of their philosophies has cured me to be like you. Oh
>>>>wait, I was supposed to have not read stuff beforehand.
>>>
>>>
>>>some people would rather place selfish interests ahead of prolterian
>>>internationlism. :(
>>
>>Some people assume because they read they are wise.
>
>
> I know that I am.
A village idiot once said:
Admitting that is the first step to your recovery.
>
> For example I can say that dictatorships are inherently more
> inefficient than democracies within certain limits because they place
> even less limit on infighting and corruption and indeed such things
> are usually encouraged in order to keep subordinates occupied and in
> their place, tho' that is not to say that such things occur in our
> democracies, tho' perhaps dictatorship of the bourgeois is more appros
> for them.
And this has to do with the afterlife, spirituality, or religion in what
way? Sorry, we are going to have to come back on track here for a bit.
If I wanted to argue forms of government I probably would have gone to
alt.government or some other group like that. Are you lost? Is that your
problem?
>
>
>>>>btw you have a
>>>>whole lot of time to do some philisophical reading when you are forced
>>>>to sit around for 3 months.
>>>
>>>
>>>I have an A-level in philsophy, the result of two years study of
>>>philosophy. So there!
>>>
>>
>>An a-level? How many tests do you have to pass to get that?
>
>
> Umm... Lots. It's learning by rote and they have to see that you've
> got what they're trying to instil you with.
>
So, you admit your philosophy is told to you and not something you have
realized. I can't really discuss that with you, but if I ever meet the
authors of the books you read I will be sure to bring it up with them.
>
>>>>You have disproved god? I guess then there is nothing more for us to
>>>>discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not me, others.
>>
>>Oh, so others have disproved god, you can only tell me about it, and you
>>still have very little of your own to say.
>
>
> The same applies to you. You're just spouting off the same old tired
> egotistical eastern philosophy mish mash rubbish which cannot offer
> any solutions to anything.
Ah, but at least it is mine, which is more than I can say for you. Still
yet I can speak of what is mine, unlike those who would run out of
philosophy when their books run out of pages.
>
> The works of Marx and Engel's however are more relevant than ever now,
> and are just and fresh and radical as they were 100 years ago, more so
> indeed.
>
That is nice and all, but they are hardly here to discuss anything, and
since I know what they have written you would seem to be out of things
to say. Well, aside from repeating yourself.
>
>
>>>But by revealing the cause of religion and belief in god, it is
>>>disproved in the same way that revealing how a magician did his trick
>>>makes it cease to be "magic".
>>
>>Thank you for telling me. However, it would seem unless you have
>>something of your own to say we have very little to discuss. In all
>>honesty, I didn't come here to have conversations with books I should
>>read. Whether god exists or not it is clear you are a sheep.
>
>
> Better a sheep than a lamb chop. :(
Splitting hairs because both would seem to be boring.
One question, are you actually going to point out any flaws in the
original post, or just spout off about old dead authors? Could you maybe
explain in your own words what these writers have expressed? I mean,
you did read it and understand it right? You are not just going to say
"read the book" when you could so easily participate in a real debate
instead of just slinging pompous jibes at me? Either way we can go on, I
just figured I would point out the many pages of philosophy I have
actually posted and the none you have.
BTW I would suggest not, and just going on to another place with a much
less intelligent person who you might have a chace with.
Princess Safari
Wanderer
news:41d7d1e8...@news.individual.net...
> Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
> great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
> against him.
>
>
> I know that I am.
>
<shakes head sorrowfully>
"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all."
-- Socrates
For my part, I may be wise; I say this only because, like Socrates, I know
there is still a great deal for me to learn.
Yours briefly,
The wolfish,
Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com
"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne
Safari Whitelion
> "Safari Whitelion"
>
>
>>Well, it has been a while. I think I will make a nice long post here. I
>>took a magic potion sometime in the area of 2 Junes ago (About a year
>>and a half). In that potion was the pure refined powers of the winds of
>>change. From there my life and spirit was hit with a tornado the like of
>>which I am still in awe. If one ever wants to seek out the powers of
>>change you have my best wishes and I hope you have fortune and destiny
>>on your side.
>
>
> Good to have you posting again. I don't recommend taking any potions
> to bring about change in one's life, change comes, it is a constant of our
> universe. The hominid tendency is to resist change, resisting seems to
> make the whole ordeal painful.
I wouldn't recommend it either.
>
>>Sometimes it can be rough to worship tornadoes, and I wouldn't recommend
>>it. The Buddha says that we will all arrive at somewhat of the same
>>point, but our journey's would be different.
>>
>
> Is this accurate? Do you actually worship tornadoes? In my own
> cultural background we regard them as people. They do seem to have
> a personality. Some people call them witkotke (crazy). I hold them
> in awe, personally and they have been a part of my life from earliest
> memories (it is Oklahoma here afterall).
Worship on some occasions, learn from on others. They are more like kin.
It is probably a good thing do't live in torado alley. I would
probaly go towards one instead of away.
>
> Were you instead being rhetorical, meaning that you appreciate the
> changes which have come into your life since that time?
>
Well, that also. I am a bit of an elementalist. When you look at the
elements and the way they act like a tonado you ca see similarities in
spiritual interaction. That is why I think the wind is the true element
of the shapeshifter. Water could have bee it, ut water makes deep
changes, fire burns and destroys when it changes, but wind changes the
surface. Like changing the body while leaving the spirit mostly intact.
You can see moments where tornadoes come through your life. All the
peidces are picked up ad moved. Some collide and are destroyed, and some
are placed in a new location. This can also be used in the casting of
spells. Where as water might be more traditional healing, wind, ormore
specifically tornadoes, can be used to alter the nature of something.
The elemental actions and reactions have a physical existance, but
actually traverse into the spiritual.
>
>>Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
>> had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
>>leave only the spirit there for a journey. Since then I have gone on
>>many a journey. I would not recommend my path. Aside from the affects it
>>might have on the body, the potion is incredibly psycho reactive.
>>Psychotic breaks are common, but I have yet to really have one. That is
>>mostly due to my reality.
>>
>
> I don't believe that psycho-active drugs lend much toward true
> insight. Because of my heritage I have taken part in Peyote ceremonies
> and I derived less enlightenment through those forms of ceremony
> than through ceremony which actively seeks out the spirit. I can not
> think of any instance where psychotic breaks have taken place among
> adherents.
>
Certainly it is not true for all. I really would not recommend my path
to anyone. Sometimes it seems like lets see how high I can bounce. You
know you used to play that game with rubber balls on the playground by
slamming them into the ground as hard as you could. I could not escape
reality, which oddle, has ceased to be the reality since. My mind was
too locked in to the senses, but I knew through study of the mind and
the effects of brain damage to perceptions that the senses were actually
the veil that needed to e lifted, and it may have been a shortcut, but
the results were atounding. Of course, I know I still exist here, and
certainly there are many other ways and things to explore
>
>>Before I go on, I am talking about a dissasociative <snip>
>>Some are dark and scary and I had to go over
>>that wall I had to see what is on the other side.
>>
>
> I think Peyote can be classed in that category. I recommend a
> different approach to the less-seen world which some would name
> the spirit world.
>
It isn't so much that you enter a spiritual world. Of course that is a
halucination. But rather it is the depth of the halucination which gives
a glimpse into what is to come. It is more like Plato's parable of the
cave where you extrapolate on another existance through these
reflections. The sights you see are not the reality, but are rather an
expression of your existance. I think they are the basics. Sort of like
the way we thought when we were children (or younger)
>
>>Impatience, I am sure there is some spiritual afterlife, but I wanted to
>>play now, and I cant because I am imprisoned. I am imprisoned by the
>>five senses in this body. That is what is at the core of shape shifting.
>
>
> Terry Pratchett wrote some interesting stuff along this vein in his
> discworld series. One key question was, does the vessel dictate
> that which is contained within it? He uses a couple examples.
> Witches in his world can borrow the shape of an animal and he even
> has a 'werewolf curse' the curse being that if you spend too much
> time as a wolf, you'll end up as a wolf, maybe with a few weird
> memories but otherwise, just a wolf. The next example he uses
> is the pitcher of water. The water conforms to the vessels shape
> but does the vessel change the nature of the water?
>
And of course the water is imprisoned by the pitcher, and the pitcher
insulates the water from the surrounding evironment. Maybe in the
beginning we need that pitcher to hold us together. Like the water if
you release it it would scatter all over the place and really become
part of the environment. The pitcher gives it form. Where if we add to
the water a congealing agent or freeze the water it maintains itself
without the pitcher. Still the pithcer leaves it's impression. So like
water froze into the shape of a wolf or into the shape of a human. It
still is the spirit, but it has a residual shape from it's container.
>
>>The knowledge that no matter what the body is just a vessel to interact
>>with the world. It is something we are chained to, and we get our
>>information from it's sensors, and that is beamed back and interpreted
>>by our spirit. But in the annihilation I have experienced I have caught a
>>glimpse into the way those perceptions are processed and through that
>>have understood more than I ever wanted to know.
>>
>
> I don't agree with the first statement somewhat. It's the academic
> question of brain/mind or body/spirit. The brain can be quantified
> but is the mind a function of the brain? Is living a function of spirit?
>
I am currently pondering if living is just communication. If we say time
and space are constructs for existance as physical bodies (The spirit
does not need these limitations) Life may be a way for my spirit to come
to understand your spirit. Which may explain the creativity. These
worlds we create through animation, roleplaying, books, movies and
whatnot. They have an existance and we try to live through the
characters within them. We use these to communicate morals or feelings.
The best movies are the ones that make you cry or laugh or make you
think. What if life was sort of like that. Your spirit costructs a
uiverse for mine to exist in and look around in ad experience your
insides. Right now we could be spirits who are just experiencing another.
>
> I do recognize 'spirit' and through simple observation and my
> tendency to anthropomorphize, I see the spirit as appreciating diversity
> above most anything else. There are people who thrive and gain a
> great appreciation of life through their jobs and if I looked at others
> feeling superior, regarding them as inferiors, I have in one quick stroke
> placed myself above 'spirit' as I understand the word.
>
The universe as we know it has a spirit, but so do you. You are a part
of the universe and affect it, as it affects you, but still are above
and seperate from it as an identity.
>
>>Surely the stock would have been a bunch of morons, but that is not
>>true. The fact is that people think, and it is not a matter of physical
>>evolution that is our next step.
>>
>
> I'm not sure about physical evolution either. I do think that we
> all can rise above our physical and mental and even spiritual limitations.
>
That seems to be one of the truths of existance is the constant movement
forward on the path.
>
>>The human male <snip>
>>. I am not saying
>>there is something wrong with those people. Some people just want to
>>live a good life. In the grand scheme of things they just burn out and
>>become part of the environment like in the case of the sperm.
>>
>
> What is wrong with being part of the environment? How about the
> idea that as tool using creatures we can actually lend aid to our
> environment?
>
For some that existance brings happiness. There is nothing wrong with
it, and I was not judging it as worth less or more. It just is what is.
That is not my way though.
>
>>I called down the tornado because the doors were open. I called it down
>>on my life, and the fate and circumstance took over. Through a huge
>>twisted logic thing and the desire to destroy myself because I was
>>unhappy. I could not be myself. The person that I was was so despised
>>and hated. It was so perverted and dirty and all of a sudden the wall
>>was shattered. and of course, having not recognized the reality of the
>>destructive spell I had cast, I plodded on.
>>
>
> Even having gone through more than half a century of life I persist
> in the belief that people can change themselves. We mitigate those
> poor judgments we made in the past by making proper judgments
> in the present. Doing this helps pave the road of our future as well.
>
Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
>
>
>>It is odd that criminal activity would coincide with the spiritual, but
>>the darkness is a part of us,<snip>
>>On my side I turned myself inward to find the
>>problems that were eating away at me.
>>
>
> In the Chao Yi it is written:
> 'In fear and trembling a person will set their life in order'
>
> Which, if I understand properly means that you have to get shaken
> up before you really try to do something about yourself otherwise,
> since we naturally resist change, we tend to procrastinate doing
> those things which would help us place our lives in order.
That is very true.
>
>
>
>><snip>
>>It was in prison when I realized that
>>we were all imprisoned in these forms. Everyone who lives has a jail.
>>The cell boundaries are your skin and senses. Here your consciousness
>>sits.
>
>
> Our limitations define our field of action within life.
>
But to have limitations implies that there is an existance beyond those
limitations. After all to limit us means that there is further to go.
>
>><snip>Here it resides, but it is as we explore disassociating the spirit
>>from the body that we discover the true limits imposed upon the spirit
>>by the body.
>
>
> In my own culture we look at this differently. It is in our associating
> with spirit which removes those limits, rather than disassociation.
>
>
>>The body is a vessel designed to travel through space time at a set
>>speed, and your senses are transferring signals to your conscious spirit
>>at set intervals. However, it is under dissacociatives that this reality
>>breaks down and certain things become obvious.
>>
>
> These sentences were puzzling to me, I am not sure I understand
> what you were trying to say. Reality breaking down? Sorry, I did
> try to understand your intent.
>
That is exactly where it was. What I am trying to say is we have a set
way that we perceive the universe, but that is reliant upon our body and
it's seses. When you disassociate the spirit from the body reality, or
at least the reality that we know now, becomes something that can be
pulled apart and maipulated. But of course that does not affect the here
and now because that expression is within my existance.
>
>>You can process so much more information <snip>
>> I have seen the end of time, and the
>>beginning.
>
>
> While you may claim this and I will support your right to
> claim this, I am dubious. Worse, I don't think there is an
> end or beginning of time. I'm not even sure time exists apart
> from the observer.
Well, in this existance anyway. There are existances outside the
boundaries of time and space.
>
>
>>It isn't hard, but one has to grasp the idea of the speed of
>>thought. I am not talking the biochemical physical reaction that goes on
>>in my mind, but rather the intricately powerful force that is ideas.
>>
>
> Still trying to follow you in hope that I might be able to add
> something
> meaningful. Ideas can be powerful but they can only exist within a
> consciousness, they may propagate to other consciousnesses and they
> may even come into reality once someone decides to execute the idea
> and bring an idea to fruition in the world around us.
>
Imagine this, lets say there are a bunch of gods. One of them comes up
with the idea of a hammer. In order to communicate the essence of
"hammer" to other gods (god or spirit or like a being that could create
using thought) the god that created the hammer creates a universe like
this one to show what a hammer can do. He creates physical laws, people
to weild it, stuff to be hammered, and all the rest of it. Through this
the idea is conveyed.
See, I am looking beyond for the moment. Not that there is any reason
to. It isn't like I don't have to wake up and go to work tomorrow. But
it is fun to look far beyond our current existance.
>>All of existence can be perceived in a moment by a god. It is by tuning
>>one's self to the universe that one can see the beginning and end and
>>grasp the hum that is existence. Existence is not this physical crap,
>>but rather the conscious knowledge of itself. Existence is like a
>>harmonic wave in that every part of it vibrates at it's own pitch in
>>unison with the environment around it to achieve a general tone. This is
>>the thought of god. Like the resonation of our voice, It can be seen as
>>the overlapping waves of sound, but it achieves a tone through the
>>combining. In essence all identity is obliterated in the din, but it is
>>that identity which gives the great noise existence and without the
>>identities the great noise would cease to exist.
>>
>
> This sounds like String Theory to me although in particle physics
> there are thought to be some particles which travel faster than light
> and in which case the start of the journey, the journey itself and
> the end of the journey would all be taking place at the same time.
>
In the perception of something outside of the requirements of time is
where we find the idea of essence. Think of a table. At first it may
have been a rock, then we cut down trees and made it out of wood, then
over time we came to make it out of plastic or marble or glass. Perhaps
in the future it will be made out of forces, but it still remains a
table. it is a place where we may put our food or items or whatever. In
a timeless existance the table still maintains it's essence.
>
>>It is not beyond us to perceive these things, but beware the search for
>>meaning is in itself pointless because we make it up as we go along. We
>>are, after all gods of our own universe, when the veil is lifted.
>
>
> There are those who want the answer to the why of things and if
> they have that desire, it is not pointless for them to pursue it. As for
> us being gods in our own universe, it sounds good if your into
> omnipotence. I suppose your viewpoint is varied from my own
> and that the statement must have had nuances I did not apprehend.
>
Well, I am not meaning god as in all powerful omnipotence. Too many
people have used the word to be a pointless power over this universe.
What I am meaning when I say we are gods is that we have the power to
create within our minds or spirit. Like a simulation, but our minds can
go way beyond what we think of as a simulation. Our minds can create an
entire new existance. Even now in our limited capacity we do it in the
form of fictional writings, roleplayig, moies, and animation. We make a
new existence, ad those universes have laws and abilities. Anyone who
has played D&D knows the requirements for casting magical spells, but we
never had that ability in this universe. Even as we are confined to
these physical bodies we still create other worlds in our minds. Now
what I am saying is that when we become unfettered by these bodies we
will create these universes and existances to communicate and exist.
This could all be an intricate language.
>
>>We are
>>made and I think we are the young. Our first steps into existence if you
>>will come from our ideas now. Here is where we learn to walk. But
>>because the spirit world is devoid of a physical body which requires
>>motion our mind needs to learn to move through the fabric of existence.
>>Our spirit can touch it and define it in simple moments, and vast
>>lifetimes.
>>
>
> I refute the idea that there is no 'physical nature' to spirit. I rather
> think
> that everything that has a physical nature is an aspect of spirit.
>
Like you mentioned before in the water example the physical leaves an
impression on the spirit, and the sprit will manifest itself physically
to interract at times, but our spirit is not required to take a physical
existance and there may be ones that do not.
>
>>Think of it like a science. If you can perceive it then you can imagine
>>it. If you can imagine it in your minds eye and create an existence
>>there you can travel anywhere by thought. You just need to create it in
>>your minds eye and then enter it. That is how god can be everywhere at
>>once because he is not limited by the physical veil that has been pulled
>>over his spirit. He can contemplate any of the places of existence in
>>his mind and then make them. By making them and entering them he travels
>>to them by pure thought.
>>
>>Thought can create a body to interact. I wonder if this is some sort of
>>construct along those lines. Imagine you are on a big field full of nerf
>>balls. Now you know how it would feel to be impacted by the nerf balls.
>>In your minds eye you can create that universe and even a body that
>>feels the impact of those balls and exist as it.
>>
>>This it where tantric meditation, hallucinatory and dissacociative drugs
>>come in to play. As we separate our conscious from the body we begin to
>>perceive things in a more immediate and pure existence. Your mind now
>>know the body and the feelings and can emulate it from then on. As many
>>have seen in their dreams. This is your mind's eye. This is your
>>creation. It is not something to be feared, but rather who you are at
>>it's purest. Unfettered by a body, but having a body that exists because
>>of the minds perception of the impulses in the environment.
>>
>
> Perhaps meditation. Ceremony another. Drugs only change your
> biochemistry.
>
Ahh, but they do alter the way we perceive the environment our body is
interacting with. In the case of dissacosiatives it gives us a sort of
reflective surface. Sure we are really just suffering the effects of the
drug, but we can see what happes as the signals of the physical world
get scrambled and then cut off. Conciousness does ot fail, but rather
loses the confines of the body.
>
>>What is identity then? How do I know there aren't a thousand me's running
>>around out there? Well that is a question we need to explore. With the
>>ideas of cloning I am sure some time in the future things will be very
>>strange philosophically. There is no problem though. You see Identity is
>>deviant thought. Identity in itself is a recognition of ones own
>>existence as a part of the greater whole. However, it is the deviant
>>thought that creates myself in this moment.
>>
>
> Are you sure there AREN'T thousands of you running around?
Yeah, I am pretty sure. If there were a thousand people like me this
world would be in big trouble.
>
>
>
>>That is all for now
>>
>
> I have tried to follow your discourse, I haven't determined what you
> were wanting to impart though.
I was just writing what came to mind. No imparting, just saying here it
is take it for what it is worth to you. But it is always fun to e i a
philisophical discussion.
Princess Safari
Safari Whitelion
The only thing I truly know is that I am an idiot.
Princess Safari
who is really thinking the cordless keyboard has not advanced far enough
Blackbear
"Safari Whitelion" >>>
> Blackbear >>
>> "Safari Whitelion"
>>
>>
>>>Well, it has been a while. <snip>
>>
>> Good to have you posting again. I don't recommend taking any potions
>
> I wouldn't recommend it either.
>>
>>>Sometimes it can be rough to worship tornadoes, and I wouldn't recommend
>>>it. The Buddha says that we will all arrive at somewhat of the same
>>>point, but our journey's would be different.
>>>
>>
>> Is this accurate? Do you actually worship tornadoes? In my own
>> cultural background we regard them as people. They do seem to have
>> a personality. Some people call them witkotke (crazy). I hold them
>> in awe, personally and they have been a part of my life from earliest
>> memories (it is Oklahoma here afterall).
>
> Worship on some occasions, learn from on others. They are more like kin.
> It is probably a good thing do't live in torado alley. I would
> probaly go towards one instead of away.
>>
Thanks for making that clear. In my own culture we do identify with
other beings. We have a tradition within the Osage clans which some
would consider like a vision quest. After purifying ourselves and
having enlisted the prayers of six elders during the journey, we set out
upon a literal journey, a sort of walk about through the forests or
plains. We do not eat or sleep but continue in the quest of spirit. The
person will continue this action for three days and return to the elders
and discuss that which took place during the journey. The journey is
intended to make contact with a spirit sympathetic to us.
If one were to cross upon a wind spirit (tate uyetopa) it would become
a relative to that person, or, as some would have it, a spirit guide. It
appears to be much the case with yourself as you have called that tornado
a spirit. Such 'witko' spirits are often times avoided by those who
would make such a journey, because each spirit requires something
of those it would communicate with. An interesting, though likely
unknown movie called Powwow Highway has a leading character
who mentions his name 'Whirlwind Dreamer' this may have gone
over the heads of some people not understanding the reference to the
tornado, he also says 'but I am not yet worthy of it (the name)'.
One of the most feared visions or spirit companions, though highly
revered, to have is Wakiyan (Thunder Beings) or the Witkotate
or crazed winds. Each, according to our culture, demand great
sacrifice by that person to the benefit of the people. In the northern
plains Lakota nations there is the 'Contrary' who behave in a
contrary fashion through a set length of time until they have
fulfilled the obligation to the spirit they had become relatives to.
Such persons were held in high esteem by their tribe and much
is expected of them.
I mention all this because, as a person whose guide is the tornado,
it would require long periods of (I'll use the term here for now)
meditation and privation in some isolated spot. It would require
that person to find confusion within the tribe and resolve it even
if it turned a clan upside down. It would require much purification
and thus I easily understand that you have come through a tumult
which most certainly has the semblance of a tornado.
A purely side note about tornadoes. If one is approaching our
home, we scribe thunder symbols in the direction of the tornado.
A 'charm' if you like though I can not recall any person who
having done this, had not been passed over by the tornado in
question.
>> Were you instead being rhetorical, meaning that you appreciate the
>> changes which have come into your life since that time?
>>
> Well, that also. I am a bit of an elementalist. When you look at the
> elements and the way they act like a tonado you ca see similarities in
> spiritual interaction.
I think I have an understanding of 'elementalist'. In many ceremonies
'earth' has an important part to play. We build an earth altar and dress
it with flags and prayer ties with sweetgrass and sages and cedar. It
becomes a symbolic mountain and represents many things, one among
them is the vision quest hill where we present ourselves before
spirit in order to gain insight and understand of a vision which we
may have received. (although visions may come during the vision
quest, it's function is an invocation to spirit for direct attention
and intervention of spirit).
> That is why I think the wind is the true element
> of the shapeshifter. Water could have bee it, ut water makes deep
> changes, fire burns and destroys when it changes, but wind changes the
> surface. Like changing the body while leaving the spirit mostly intact.
I can understand why you would say this but I differ in my
assessment. To me it is Earth which is the element of shape change.
Bears are very closely tied to earth (though there are bears who
have their ties with water) and perhaps this is why my assessment
is at variance with your own.
> You can see moments where tornadoes come through your life. All the
> peidces are picked up ad moved. Some collide and are destroyed, and some
> are placed in a new location.
Yes, though other elements may have as profound an effect upon life
and those include water, earth and fire. In the purification ritual
we sit unclad upon the earth, bring the stones which are heated through
into the small space of the sweat-lodge, we put water upon the
stones and the clouds which form help cleanse the body. During
the ritual the door is opened four times and the air rushes in and
in this way you get a GREAT dose of all four physical elements.
>This can also be used in the casting of
> spells. Where as water might be more traditional healing, wind, ormore
> specifically tornadoes, can be used to alter the nature of something.
> The elemental actions and reactions have a physical existance, but
> actually traverse into the spiritual.
You won't see this within my own culture although there are some
tribes who do this kind of 'medicine'. All our energy used in
ceremony is done for the welfare of the nations. We say
'Wamakaskan' and the best way I can translate that would be
'all those beings who have movement (life)' we do not direct
our energies for personal reasons since we are taught that Wakonta
(the Great Spirit) has provided everything we need for our own
selves and thus we should concentrate on the welfare of others.
>>
>>>Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
>>> had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
>>>leave only the spirit there for a journey.
We are not allowed to say much about any given ceremony as it
is a sign of disrespect in our nation to do so. I can speak generally
though and will speak of the Peyote ceremony which came to our
people through the Dineh (Navaho) in relatively recent times.
We go without food and purify ourselves before we enter that
ceremony. Songs will be sung and in a clockwise direction each
in turn will have their time to start a song which all will join
in with. A peyote gravy is passed around and you may eat as
little or as much as you wish. A fire is adjusted throughout
the ceremony (leading up to sunrise) which is a crescent and
has symbolisms I am not certain I should speak about, so won't.
As the night progresses a definite circular motion becomes
manifest and the water drum and the singing tend to cause
you to feel as though your spirit is rising towards the top of
the tipi. Hallucinations come but they are not random and
many times people will share the same 'hallucination as in
my case I saw on several occasions the peyote bird, which
all agree appears the same to everyone.
The entire ceremony engenders a closeness to those others
in the ceremony and it does sometimes happen that a person
dies during the ceremony. There is never any attempt made
at removing the strychnine particles from the plant. Religiously
it is the sacrament, the 'Flesh of Christ' and I assure you it
has a very fleshy feel to it in the mouth. Rather than a
separation we feel a spiritual connectedness which is quite
profound much as though we were all becoming one spirit and
not a mingling of spirits.
>>>Since then I have gone on
>>>many a journey. I would not recommend my path. Aside from the affects it
>>>might have on the body, the potion is incredibly psycho reactive.
>>>Psychotic breaks are common, but I have yet to really have one. That is
>>>mostly due to my reality.
>>>
>>
>> I don't believe that psycho-active drugs lend much toward true
>> insight. <snip>
>>
> Certainly it is not true for all. I really would not recommend my path
> to anyone. Sometimes it seems like lets see how high I can bounce. You
> know you used to play that game with rubber balls on the playground by
> slamming them into the ground as hard as you could. I could not escape
> reality, which oddle, has ceased to be the reality since. My mind was
> too locked in to the senses, but I knew through study of the mind and
> the effects of brain damage to perceptions that the senses were actually
> the veil that needed to e lifted, and it may have been a shortcut, but
> the results were atounding. Of course, I know I still exist here, and
> certainly there are many other ways and things to explore
>>
The hambliceya (crying through the night) or vision quest ceremony
appears designed to strip the 'self' away and even the physical
senses may fail during the strenuous ceremony. Three days without
water ( there may have been a couple days previous that had gone
without food as well) all the while keeping a constant vigil until
the time is fulfilled to return, so, no sleep as well. All of these
things, along with the prayer ties, the flags and robes, the nest
of sage (which is so fragrant) the robe for warmth come together
to create a very powerful effect upon the person. This is
done without any psychoactive agents and I would submit the
effect is even more profound, individually, than any disassociative
agent.
>>>Before I go on, I am talking about a dissasociative <snip>
>>>Some are dark and scary and I had to go over
>>>that wall I had to see what is on the other side.
>>>
>>
>> I think Peyote can be classed in that category. I recommend a
>> different approach to the less-seen world which some would name
>> the spirit world.
>>
> It isn't so much that you enter a spiritual world. Of course that is a
> halucination. But rather it is the depth of the halucination which gives
> a glimpse into what is to come. It is more like Plato's parable of the
> cave where you extrapolate on another existance through these
> reflections. The sights you see are not the reality, but are rather an
> expression of your existance. I think they are the basics. Sort of like
> the way we thought when we were children (or younger)
The sights seen during a vision quest are reality and help one
to define one's existence. In Christianity, Emmanuel would often
go into the wilderness for huge lengths of time and my ancestors
had no difficulty in understanding why he might do that and what
the results of doing that could be. It was easy for many of my
ancestors to accept Christianity once we understood that the
religion had vision questors. One of my Elders who is now walking
beyond the stars told me that a religion was a dead one without vision
and those who sought vision.
>>
>>>Impatience, I am sure there is some spiritual afterlife, but I wanted to
>>>play now, and I cant because I am imprisoned. I am imprisoned by the
>>>five senses in this body. That is what is at the core of shape shifting.
>>
As one of the few who will admit to having experienced a shape-shift,
I do not think that you are imprisoned by your senses. Through
ceremony one moves beyond space/time, beyond the improbable.
It must be emphasized that we do not practice ceremony for our own
use but rather as a facility in aid to the nations. Accept or reject
this but on one occasion during a purification ritual I suddenly
found myself an observer in a very dark lodge. I was missing
among the participants within my view (no oobe) and I found
that I was a cloud hovering at the top of the lodge. I even had
the experience of raining! After that I took clouds a lot more
seriously.
That is one experience and because of that and others I believe
with certainty that we may indeed transform regardless of the
dictates of our current form, Not suitable for Hollywood,
such transformations always take place in the space of a heart-beat.
>>
>> Terry Pratchett wrote some interesting stuff along this vein in his
>> discworld series. One key question was, does the vessel dictate
>> that which is contained within it? <snip>
>>
> And of course the water is imprisoned by the pitcher, and the pitcher
> insulates the water from the surrounding evironment. Maybe in the
> beginning we need that pitcher to hold us together. Like the water if
> you release it it would scatter all over the place and really become
> part of the environment. The pitcher gives it form. Where if we add to
> the water a congealing agent or freeze the water it maintains itself
> without the pitcher. Still the pithcer leaves it's impression. So like
> water froze into the shape of a wolf or into the shape of a human. It
> still is the spirit, but it has a residual shape from it's container.
I have had occasion to meet individual spirits. Each has been an
individual and each has had definite form. When I asked my
Elders about Mother Bear (my spirit guide) I came to understand
that the Mother Bear I knew was the same Mother Bear my most
remote ancestor may have had communication with. As best I
can understand, time is not a part of her world. I know myself
to have a bear spirit and when I expire my 'residual shape' will
be the blackbear I know myself to be, this is my conjecture.
>>
>>>The knowledge that no matter what the body is just a vessel to interact
>>>with the world. It is something we are chained to, and we get our
>>>information from it's sensors, and that is beamed back and interpreted
>>>by our spirit. But in the annihilation I have experienced I have caught a
>>>glimpse into the way those perceptions are processed and through that
>>>have understood more than I ever wanted to know.
>>>
>>
>> I don't agree with the first statement somewhat. It's the academic
>> question of brain/mind or body/spirit. The brain can be quantified
>> but is the mind a function of the brain? Is living a function of spirit?
>>
> I am currently pondering if living is just communication. If we say time
> and space are constructs for existance as physical bodies (The spirit
> does not need these limitations) Life may be a way for my spirit to come
> to understand your spirit. Which may explain the creativity. These
> worlds we create through animation, roleplaying, books, movies and
> whatnot. They have an existance and we try to live through the
> characters within them. We use these to communicate morals or feelings.
It's an interesting thing to ponder. If we have the place of determining
reality and existence, then nothing can exist without the observers. To
properly observe the universe we need to have not just human eyes
but every kind of eye of every kind of being to experience existence in
all it's myriad forms and thus have a reality of substance. In my
own culture even the rocks have life and can speak.
> The best movies are the ones that make you cry or laugh or make you
> think. What if life was sort of like that. Your spirit costructs a
> uiverse for mine to exist in and look around in ad experience your
> insides. Right now we could be spirits who are just experiencing another.
>
I think this may not be far from true.
>>
>> I do recognize 'spirit' and through simple observation and my
>> tendency to anthropomorphize, I see the spirit as appreciating diversity
>> above most anything else. There are people who thrive and gain a
>> great appreciation of life through their jobs and if I looked at others
>> feeling superior, regarding them as inferiors, I have in one quick stroke
>> placed myself above 'spirit' as I understand the word.
>>
> The universe as we know it has a spirit, but so do you. You are a part
> of the universe and affect it, as it affects you, but still are above
> and seperate from it as an identity.
I think I am one of a class of beings, one of many and far from
being unique, who seeks to be a part of the whole. In my own
view I consider existence as something imposed upon us where
we might learn that our true interest is in being with spirit as
a functioning whole, a gestalt of sorts which will not be complete
until all those who have separated themselves from spirit
return to make that spirit whole.
Consider the blackbear which is a part of it's environment.
Speeding up decomposition and thus enrich the regolith while
at the same time gaining the nourishment needed to continue.
Distributing seeds, loosening soil all important things for the
health of the biomass. Such a one is an asset to the environment
and thereby an important part of the whole, though an
individual, that bear is interwoven into the welfare of it's range.
>>
>>>Surely the stock would have been a bunch of morons, but that is not
>>>true. The fact is that people think, and it is not a matter of physical
>>>evolution that is our next step.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure about physical evolution either. I do think that we
>> all can rise above our physical and mental and even spiritual
>> limitations.
>>
> That seems to be one of the truths of existance is the constant movement
> forward on the path.
Quite so.
>>
>>>The human male <snip>
>>>. I am not saying
>>>there is something wrong with those people. Some people just want to
>>>live a good life. In the grand scheme of things they just burn out and
>>>become part of the environment like in the case of the sperm.
>>>
>>
>> What is wrong with being part of the environment? How about the
>> idea that as tool using creatures we can actually lend aid to our
>> environment?
>>
> For some that existance brings happiness. There is nothing wrong with
> it, and I was not judging it as worth less or more. It just is what is.
> That is not my way though.
Thanks for clarifying that.
>>
>>>I called down the tornado because the doors were open. I called it down
>>>on my life, and the fate and circumstance took over. Through a huge
>>>twisted logic thing and the desire to destroy myself because I was
>>>unhappy. I could not be myself. The person that I was was so despised
>>>and hated. It was so perverted and dirty and all of a sudden the wall
>>>was shattered. and of course, having not recognized the reality of the
>>>destructive spell I had cast, I plodded on.
>>>
>>
>> Even having gone through more than half a century of life I persist
>> in the belief that people can change themselves. We mitigate those
>> poor judgments we made in the past by making proper judgments
>> in the present. Doing this helps pave the road of our future as well.
>>
> Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
I think that, by virtue of existence, the spirit DOES change but
without the physical stage upon which to act, it can not.
>>
>>
>>>It is odd that criminal activity would coincide with the spiritual, but
>>>the darkness is a part of us,<snip>
>>>On my side I turned myself inward to find the
>>>problems that were eating away at me.
>>>
>>
>> In the Chao Yi it is written:
>> 'In fear and trembling a person will set their life in order'
>>
>> Which, if I understand properly means that you have to get shaken
>> up before you really try to do something about yourself otherwise,
>> since we naturally resist change, we tend to procrastinate doing
>> those things which would help us place our lives in order.
>
> That is very true.
>>
>>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>It was in prison when I realized that
>>>we were all imprisoned in these forms. Everyone who lives has a jail.
>>>The cell boundaries are your skin and senses. Here your consciousness
>>>sits.
>>
>>
>> Our limitations define our field of action within life.
>>
> But to have limitations implies that there is an existance beyond those
> limitations. After all to limit us means that there is further to go.
>
There may be those whose design allows them to exceed their
limitations perhaps. I play piano, I could practice forever
and never become a concert pianist, it is not my forte. I might
do a good job for a local club playing for those folks but
people would suffer nausea and vacate the seats at Carnegie Hall
were I to attempt playing there. I push my limits but I may
never exceed them. At the same time I know and preserve
hundreds of cultural songs, I can recall and vocalize them
even under the most dire duress. Thus, my limitations have
defined my field of practice.
>>
>>><snip>Here it resides, but it is as we explore disassociating the spirit
>>>from the body that we discover the true limits imposed upon the spirit
>>>by the body.
>>
>>
>> In my own culture we look at this differently. It is in our
>> associating
>> with spirit which removes those limits, rather than disassociation.
>>
>>
>>>The body is a vessel designed to travel through space time at a set
>>>speed, and your senses are transferring signals to your conscious spirit
>>>at set intervals. However, it is under dissacociatives that this reality
>>>breaks down and certain things become obvious.
>>>
>>
>> These sentences were puzzling to me, I am not sure I understand
>> what you were trying to say. Reality breaking down? Sorry, I did
>> try to understand your intent.
>>
> That is exactly where it was. What I am trying to say is we have a set
> way that we perceive the universe, but that is reliant upon our body and
> it's seses. When you disassociate the spirit from the body reality, or
> at least the reality that we know now, becomes something that can be
> pulled apart and maipulated. But of course that does not affect the here
> and now because that expression is within my existance.
Again, thank you for clearing that up.
My own culture teaches us to be observant of the present but to be
mindful of the future. It is in the present that the seeds of the future
are sewn.
I have trouble trying to imagine 'gods' I have great reverence towards
Mother Bear but do not consider her a goddess. Crow, as a spirit,
has had a lot of influence in my life and even Dot'so (the deerfly)
I hold in very high esteem likewise but my culture says there is
only one 'God' which we call Wakonta and which means
the great mystery, a Spirit beyond our ability to comprehend.
>>>All of existence can be perceived in a moment by a god. It is by tuning
>>>one's self to the universe that one can see the beginning and end and
>>>grasp the hum that is existence. Existence is not this physical crap,
>>>but rather the conscious knowledge of itself. Existence is like a
>>>harmonic wave in that every part of it vibrates at it's own pitch in
>>>unison with the environment around it to achieve a general tone. This is
>>>the thought of god. Like the resonation of our voice, It can be seen as
>>>the overlapping waves of sound, but it achieves a tone through the
>>>combining. In essence all identity is obliterated in the din, but it is
>>>that identity which gives the great noise existence and without the
>>>identities the great noise would cease to exist.
>>>
>>
>> This sounds like String Theory to me although in particle physics
>> there are thought to be some particles which travel faster than light
>> and in which case the start of the journey, the journey itself and
>> the end of the journey would all be taking place at the same time.
>>
> In the perception of something outside of the requirements of time is
> where we find the idea of essence. Think of a table. At first it may
> have been a rock, then we cut down trees and made it out of wood, then
> over time we came to make it out of plastic or marble or glass. Perhaps
> in the future it will be made out of forces, but it still remains a
> table. it is a place where we may put our food or items or whatever. In
> a timeless existance the table still maintains it's essence.
Yes, I follow you here fairly well much as I described Mother Bear.
>>
>>>It is not beyond us to perceive these things, but beware the search for
>>>meaning is in itself pointless because we make it up as we go along. We
>>>are, after all gods of our own universe, when the veil is lifted.
>>
>>
>> There are those who want the answer to the why of things and if
>> they have that desire, it is not pointless for them to pursue it. As for
>> us being gods in our own universe, it sounds good if your into
>> omnipotence. I suppose your viewpoint is varied from my own
>> and that the statement must have had nuances I did not apprehend.
>>
> Well, I am not meaning god as in all powerful omnipotence. Too many
> people have used the word to be a pointless power over this universe.
> What I am meaning when I say we are gods is that we have the power to
> create within our minds or spirit. Like a simulation, but our minds can go
> way beyond what we think of as a simulation. Our minds can create an
> entire new existance. Even now in our limited capacity we do it in the
> form of fictional writings, roleplayig, moies, and animation. We make a
> new existence, ad those universes have laws and abilities. Anyone who has
> played D&D knows the requirements for casting magical spells, but we never
> had that ability in this universe. Even as we are confined to these
> physical bodies we still create other worlds in our minds. Now what I am
> saying is that when we become unfettered by these bodies we will create
> these universes and existances to communicate and exist. This could all be
> an intricate language.
>
With our own 'limited capacity' we may indeed create such things
however when we operate via our spiritual connections we do, in
essence, become unfettered.
>>
>>>We are
>>>made and I think we are the young. Our first steps into existence if you
>>>will come from our ideas now. Here is where we learn to walk. But
>>>because the spirit world is devoid of a physical body which requires
>>>motion our mind needs to learn to move through the fabric of existence.
>>>Our spirit can touch it and define it in simple moments, and vast
>>>lifetimes.
>>>
>>
>> I refute the idea that there is no 'physical nature' to spirit. I
>> rather think
>> that everything that has a physical nature is an aspect of spirit.
>>
> Like you mentioned before in the water example the physical leaves an
> impression on the spirit, and the sprit will manifest itself physically
> to interract at times, but our spirit is not required to take a physical
> existance and there may be ones that do not.
>
I agree.
>>
>>>Think of it like a science. If you can perceive it then you can imagine
>>>it. If you can imagine it in your minds eye and create an existence
>>>there you can travel anywhere by thought. You just need to create it in
>>>your minds eye and then enter it. That is how god can be everywhere at
>>>once because he is not limited by the physical veil that has been pulled
>>>over his spirit. He can contemplate any of the places of existence in
>>>his mind and then make them. By making them and entering them he travels
>>>to them by pure thought.
>>>
>>>Thought can create a body to interact. I wonder if this is some sort of
>>>construct along those lines. Imagine you are on a big field full of nerf
>>>balls. Now you know how it would feel to be impacted by the nerf balls.
>>>In your minds eye you can create that universe and even a body that
>>>feels the impact of those balls and exist as it.
>>>
>>>This it where tantric meditation, hallucinatory and dissacociative drugs
>>>come in to play. <snip>
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps meditation. Ceremony another. Drugs only change your
>> biochemistry.
>>
> Ahh, but they do alter the way we perceive the environment our body is
> interacting with. In the case of dissacosiatives it gives us a sort of
> reflective surface. Sure we are really just suffering the effects of the
> drug, but we can see what happes as the signals of the physical world get
> scrambled and then cut off. Conciousness does ot fail, but rather loses
> the confines of the body.
As I have mentioned, I no longer attend Peyote Ceremonies because
I have found greater understandings though the other sacred ceremonies.
Consciousness, during the strain of some of the ceremonies may
indeed fail, the physical strain, deprecation, isolation may cause one
to lose consciousness of the self but may also liberate the spirit
as you have described. I have been taken into the vision world
on several occasions, in these times the spirit is set loose.
>>
>>>What is identity then? How do I know there aren't a thousand me's running
>>>around out there? Well that is a question we need to explore. With the
>>>ideas of cloning I am sure some time in the future things will be very
>>>strange philosophically. There is no problem though. You see Identity is
>>>deviant thought. Identity in itself is a recognition of ones own
>>>existence as a part of the greater whole. However, it is the deviant
>>>thought that creates myself in this moment.
>>>
>>
>> Are you sure there AREN'T thousands of you running around?
>
> Yeah, I am pretty sure. If there were a thousand people like me this world
> would be in big trouble.
I said that mainly because I believe it is unproductive for people to
feel that they are unique. We have a saying, which is also a prayer,
that is Mitak uye Oyasin, meanings to that are 'We are All the same',
"we are all related' and even 'I want to be with my relatives'. In my
own culture there is a lot of diversity in 'medicines'. There are
shield makers, there are arrow makers, there are holy people and
in our culture even the most mentally challenged is considered
sacred and we take measures to insure that those persons also are
shown reverence, even looked up to for their medicines.
Yet we are one tribe with three clans, the diversity creates the
whole tribe so everyone is unique in that fashion but it is a
cooperation between us which makes of us a tribe. Each medicine
has it's purpose. Like a clock which has many gears and cogs,
has numbers on it's face, has a main spring, each cog is different
though it may mesh with another, each part is unique but all these
parts are only one thing. Without the assembly, the parts
remain unique but will not function as intended.
>>
>>
>>
>>>That is all for now
>>>
>>
>> I have tried to follow your discourse, I haven't determined what you
>> were wanting to impart though.
>
> I was just writing what came to mind. No imparting, just saying here it is
> take it for what it is worth to you. But it is always fun to e i a
> philisophical discussion.
>
Good, I needed to understand that. Our motivations speak a lot
about us. Discussions are important to my nation and while they
may be fun, the intention is to gain insights to our own understandings
by viewing them from the perspective of others. Thus we may
grow to throw out an idea which we may favor when we gain a
broader understanding such as that gained in a good discussion.
Blackbear
Safari Whitelion
well thought out manner, and to say that even though I may disagree
don't take it wrong I am ot saying you are wrong, I am just putting out
my point of view and this is how I do it. Some people take things too
personally, and trust me you will know if I think you are a moron.
I have never heard of that movie before, but I am always looking for
obscure and spiritual titles.
>
> One of the most feared visions or spirit companions, though highly
> revered, to have is Wakiyan (Thunder Beings) or the Witkotate
> or crazed winds. Each, according to our culture, demand great
> sacrifice by that person to the benefit of the people. In the northern
> plains Lakota nations there is the 'Contrary' who behave in a
> contrary fashion through a set length of time until they have
> fulfilled the obligation to the spirit they had become relatives to.
> Such persons were held in high esteem by their tribe and much
> is expected of them.
>
> I mention all this because, as a person whose guide is the tornado,
> it would require long periods of (I'll use the term here for now)
> meditation and privation in some isolated spot. It would require
> that person to find confusion within the tribe and resolve it even
> if it turned a clan upside down. It would require much purification
> and thus I easily understand that you have come through a tumult
> which most certainly has the semblance of a tornado.
>
> A purely side note about tornadoes. If one is approaching our
> home, we scribe thunder symbols in the direction of the tornado.
> A 'charm' if you like though I can not recall any person who
> having done this, had not been passed over by the tornado in
> question.
It is funny, I live in NY, and tornados here are rare, and ot as
powerful as their midwest counterparts. However, for the past few years o
the day that I celebrate my birthday a great storm front has come
through and dropped a tornado that has come up to the restaurant that I
have been in and skipped over it and landed on the other side. It has
become sort of the family joke. At my high school graduation, and the
summer that was a turning point in my life I had a tornado come down the
road my house was on. We lived in a rural area just outside of the city.
No deaths in ay of these. There was some damage at my graduation, but
none to any of the guests cars or my parents house. The rest of the road
was impassable. I have to say, in ways to die, I would gladly be taken
by a tornado at my time. Not to be too morbid, I am not looking to
shuffle off the mortal coil yet.
>
>
>>> Were you instead being rhetorical, meaning that you appreciate the
>>>changes which have come into your life since that time?
>>>
>>
>>Well, that also. I am a bit of an elementalist. When you look at the
>>elements and the way they act like a tonado you ca see similarities in
>>spiritual interaction.
>
>
> I think I have an understanding of 'elementalist'. In many ceremonies
> 'earth' has an important part to play. We build an earth altar and dress
> it with flags and prayer ties with sweetgrass and sages and cedar. It
> becomes a symbolic mountain and represents many things, one among
> them is the vision quest hill where we present ourselves before
> spirit in order to gain insight and understand of a vision which we
> may have received. (although visions may come during the vision
> quest, it's function is an invocation to spirit for direct attention
> and intervention of spirit).
I view earth as being more of the physical constants of the universe.
The truth, and that which does not change. As we grow, parts of our
spirit grow and mature, but there is that base consciousness that is the
ego that is earth. winds move it's surface around, water cuts deep holes
and valleys in it, and fire scorches it's surface and warms it, but
that center is always there.
>
>
>>That is why I think the wind is the true element
>>of the shapeshifter. Water could have bee it, ut water makes deep
>>changes, fire burns and destroys when it changes, but wind changes the
>>surface. Like changing the body while leaving the spirit mostly intact.
>
>
> I can understand why you would say this but I differ in my
> assessment. To me it is Earth which is the element of shape change.
> Bears are very closely tied to earth (though there are bears who
> have their ties with water) and perhaps this is why my assessment
> is at variance with your own.
>
It could also be that different animals may have different elements as
their stronger force. I ca see where the earth is important for some,
and most certainly from my years here I have seen that shape shifting
means far different things for different people. I think wolves would be
very water oriented being so attached to the moon and such. But like the
Buddha says we all journey from beginning to end and each of us takes a
different and completely meaningful path.
>
>
>>You can see moments where tornadoes come through your life. All the
>>peidces are picked up ad moved. Some collide and are destroyed, and some
>>are placed in a new location.
>
>
> Yes, though other elements may have as profound an effect upon life
> and those include water, earth and fire. In the purification ritual
> we sit unclad upon the earth, bring the stones which are heated through
> into the small space of the sweat-lodge, we put water upon the
> stones and the clouds which form help cleanse the body. During
> the ritual the door is opened four times and the air rushes in and
> in this way you get a GREAT dose of all four physical elements.
That seems cool. Where do you find things like this? Here in NY we have
very little of that sort of thing. It is a shame because I think that
the northeast forests are some of the most lush and beautiful I have
ever seen, and I am always drawn back to the mountains. If I ever win
the lottery or get some cash I think I will have to buy a good bit of
forest and make a spiritual preserve.
>
>
>>This can also be used in the casting of
>>spells. Where as water might be more traditional healing, wind, ormore
>>specifically tornadoes, can be used to alter the nature of something.
>>The elemental actions and reactions have a physical existance, but
>>actually traverse into the spiritual.
>
>
> You won't see this within my own culture although there are some
> tribes who do this kind of 'medicine'. All our energy used in
> ceremony is done for the welfare of the nations. We say
> 'Wamakaskan' and the best way I can translate that would be
> 'all those beings who have movement (life)' we do not direct
> our energies for personal reasons since we are taught that Wakonta
> (the Great Spirit) has provided everything we need for our own
> selves and thus we should concentrate on the welfare of others.
I have found the most success i using it to heal and regenerate life.
One of my first experiences with the energy of nature was with a small
tree. I grew up in a woodsy area of the suburbs of Westchester NY. Our
road was dirt until just a few years ago. I can remember always playing
in the woods with the trees and streams and birds and insects. One day
after playing real hard I was exhausted. I could feel the energy of this
plant almost calling too me. As a kid I just used it like a toy. I just
pulled it within. Over the next week the tree began to wilt. It was then
that I realized I cannot take too much even though the trees and
creatures would give it. Don't worry the tree didn't die. I spent the
next couple of weeks watering and pulling back the other leaves and
making sure it got back on it's roots.
>
>
>>>>Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this place
>>>>had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
>>>>leave only the spirit there for a journey.
>
>
> We are not allowed to say much about any given ceremony as it
> is a sign of disrespect in our nation to do so. I can speak generally
> though and will speak of the Peyote ceremony which came to our
> people through the Dineh (Navaho) in relatively recent times.
You have to watch out because some people take it so wrong. Like I had
this fried who went off on trying datura or gypsum weed. You probably
have a good idea of the power it has. He was not prepared for the
spiritual trip. I have also seen some who just want to trip on it, and
there are better things and more safe things to play with if that is
your desire. Someday I may try some datura. I have wanted to try peyote
in a spiritual sense. Just a few weeks of a spiritual exploration would
be really great. Although I am not familiar with ceremony, I try to keep
those experiences as an exploration, and I think that some of the
effects are that the spirits are able to convey ideas much easier to us
at these times. Our minds are not as encumbered by our bodies limits.
Such a great rift was created by my ancestors who stormed across this
land and really disturbed some very wise and insightful spiritualists.
And even now in the current state of technology I think that these
spiritualists would have brought us more to a relationship with the land
and science had they not been put down so horribly. The understandings
and ideas and applications of these sciences could really be expanded
through spiritualism.
Like what I referred to with healing spells. I tend to heal very well. I
guide my energies and try to understand my bodies nature to overcome or
put off illness. In the case of a friend of mine a slight alteration in
the nature of a tumor made it become not a life threatening thing and
something that could be overcome.
>
> We go without food and purify ourselves before we enter that
> ceremony. <SNIP>though we were all becoming one spirit and
> not a mingling of spirits.
>
Please don't feel pressure to reveal stuff that should remain sacred.
This is the internet after all. Certainly not the place to go spouting
all sorts of things most people wont understand. I have had a desire to
explore the spirit with others. Unfortunately, I tend to find people who
are a lot of talk and not a lot of understanding. One of the things I
have found to be quite enjoyable, and a good fried helped me out with
this with a good gift on christmas, is media guided exploration.
We are at a point where the ideas of artists can be conveyed through
visual and auditory explorations. It isn't quite as good as having other
people there, and you miss out on those who can't convey feeling through
art, but I have found some great spiritual explorations in certain media.
First is Peter Gabriel and his videos. Even though he has achieved a
high popularity I believe his music and his video ideas convey his
experiences and spiritual discoveries. He is my favorite person for
exploration. He does have a more African flavor to his works, but his
ideas just come through and it is like a form of communication.
One of the other explorations I have enjoyed has come from the world of
Animation. A title called "Cat Soup" This is an interesting trip into
the universe and the land of the dead as guided by the creator. It is
like a spiritual roller coaster if you will. It is a fun ride that I like
to take for entertainment purposes. It also has the effect of opening
ones consciousness and creativism.
> The hambliceya (crying through the night) or vision quest ceremony
> appears designed to strip the 'self' away and even the physical
> senses may fail during the strenuous ceremony. Three days without
> water ( there may have been a couple days previous that had gone
> without food as well) all the while keeping a constant vigil until
> the time is fulfilled to return, so, no sleep as well. All of these
> things, along with the prayer ties, the flags and robes, the nest
> of sage (which is so fragrant) the robe for warmth come together
> to create a very powerful effect upon the person. This is
> done without any psychoactive agents and I would submit the
> effect is even more profound, individually, than any disassociative
> agent.
I may have to try something like that, but that involves finding someone
who can watch out for me while I am doing it. I can definitely see
where the ascetic (I think I have spelled this wrong) ceremonies can
bring great enlightenment. More often I use these times to gain a more
instinctual mindset. Not to belittle your journey, I certainly would not
want to insult you, but I get to that point when I play paint ball. Yeah,
i have to do the best with what I have. I don't get into the speed ball
tournament thing. What I do get into is the hunting of other humans. I
don't need to hunt deer for food or take from the land in that way. So I
tend to avoid it. What I like is being set against the cunning humans in
the woods. Each of us stalking each other with human tools. We are not at
that point where we need to kill each other, but we can slip into that
predatory mindset and stalk and hunt. When I get with the right people
it is very spiritual for me.
>
> The sights seen during a vision quest are reality and help one
> to define one's existence. In Christianity, Emmanuel would often
> go into the wilderness for huge lengths of time and my ancestors
> had no difficulty in understanding why he might do that and what
> the results of doing that could be. It was easy for many of my
> ancestors to accept Christianity once we understood that the
> religion had vision questors. One of my Elders who is now walking
> beyond the stars told me that a religion was a dead one without vision
> and those who sought vision.
I see christianity in a sort of theological stagnation. It's ceremony
has become just ceremony for many, and there tends to be too much lip
service. But I have met those who have a deep spiritualism within it.
Christianity suffers from popularity.
>>>
> As one of the few who will admit to having experienced a shape-shift,
> I do not think that you are imprisoned by your senses. Through
> ceremony one moves beyond space/time, beyond the improbable.
> It must be emphasized that we do not practice ceremony for our own
> use but rather as a facility in aid to the nations. Accept or reject
> this but on one occasion during a purification ritual I suddenly
> found myself an observer in a very dark lodge. I was missing
> among the participants within my view (no oobe) and I found
> that I was a cloud hovering at the top of the lodge. I even had
> the experience of raining! After that I took clouds a lot more
> seriously.
That must have been really cool. I have never felt that one before.
>
> That is one experience and because of that and others I believe
> with certainty that we may indeed transform regardless of the
> dictates of our current form, Not suitable for Hollywood,
> such transformations always take place in the space of a heart-beat.
That is why I view the spirit as being beyond time. Our bodies and the
physical world are subject to time, but the sprit can have vast changes
happen in a blink, but they can be very in depth.
>
>
> I have had occasion to meet individual spirits. Each has been an
> individual and each has had definite form. When I asked my
> Elders about Mother Bear (my spirit guide) I came to understand
> that the Mother Bear I knew was the same Mother Bear my most
> remote ancestor may have had communication with. As best I
> can understand, time is not a part of her world. I know myself
> to have a bear spirit and when I expire my 'residual shape' will
> be the blackbear I know myself to be, this is my conjecture.
In some ways I am disappointed that I did not have the experience of
growing up in a more spiritual place, but in some ways it has benefited
me. I can see parallels between the spiritualism of native americans and
the spiritualism of people of asian descent. The ideas of exploring
elementalism. The ascetic ceremonies that bring about spiritual
communication and understanding. The ideas of a greater sprit and ki.
They almost compliment each other beautifully. The essence that is bear
has certainly left it's mark upon you.
For a while I thought maybe my spirit was a tornado. I know, that was
silly, but it is through that that I realized I am not a tornado, but it
has left it's impression upon me, and through that I am sort of
descended from that spirit.
>>
>>I am currently pondering if living is just communication. If we say time
>>and space are constructs for existance as physical bodies (The spirit
>>does not need these limitations) Life may be a way for my spirit to come
>>to understand your spirit. Which may explain the creativity. These
>>worlds we create through animation, roleplaying, books, movies and
>>whatnot. They have an existance and we try to live through the
>>characters within them. We use these to communicate morals or feelings.
>
>
> It's an interesting thing to ponder. If we have the place of determining
> reality and existence, then nothing can exist without the observers. To
> properly observe the universe we need to have not just human eyes
> but every kind of eye of every kind of being to experience existence in
> all it's myriad forms and thus have a reality of substance. In my
> own culture even the rocks have life and can speak.
>
Oh, I can see a spirit within them. They have an existence that is
different from our current one, but it still is an existence. They still
effect and exist. But of course I am preaching to the choir at this point.
>>
>>The universe as we know it has a spirit, but so do you. You are a part
>>of the universe and affect it, as it affects you, but still are above
>>and seperate from it as an identity.
>
>
> I think I am one of a class of beings, one of many and far from
> being unique, who seeks to be a part of the whole. In my own
> view I consider existence as something imposed upon us where
> we might learn that our true interest is in being with spirit as
> a functioning whole, a gestalt of sorts which will not be complete
> until all those who have separated themselves from spirit
> return to make that spirit whole.
Maybe that is the way that the original encompassing spirit grows.
>
> Consider the blackbear which is a part of it's environment.
> Speeding up decomposition and thus enrich the regolith while
> at the same time gaining the nourishment needed to continue.
> Distributing seeds, loosening soil all important things for the
> health of the biomass. Such a one is an asset to the environment
> and thereby an important part of the whole, though an
> individual, that bear is interwoven into the welfare of it's range.
Oh truly we are part of a greater whole, but I wonder if like a mother
grows a new life within that someday a part of this whole will go on to
become another entity like the first universe. And certainly that would
not be the goal of everything, but that certain parts would have that
design.
>>>
>>
>>Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
>
>
> I think that, by virtue of existence, the spirit DOES change but
> without the physical stage upon which to act, it can not.
Well, that is where I see the earth part of the spirit coming in. Sure
we change, but the original consciousness or spirit is still the same.
At this point I am going to split this post.
Yes, I will be responding to the rest, but it will take some time.
Blackbear
"Safari Whitelion" > & >>>>>
> BTW before going on, I would like to thank you for responding in such a
> well thought out manner, and to say that even though I may disagree
> don't take it wrong I am ot saying you are wrong, I am just putting out
> my point of view and this is how I do it. Some people take things too
> personally, and trust me you will know if I think you are a moron.
>
This is fine, the whole concept of a discussion is about examining views
that may differ.
> Blackbear wrote: >> & >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, it has been a while. <snip>
>>>>
>>>> Good to have you posting again. <snip>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Sometimes it can be rough to worship tornadoes<snip>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is this accurate? Do you actually worship tornadoes? <snip>
>>>
>>>Worship on some occasions, learn from on others. <snip>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for making that clear. <snip>
>>
>> If one were to cross upon a wind spirit (tate uyetopa) it would become
>> a relative to that person, or, as some would have it, a spirit guide. It
>> appears to be much the case with yourself as you have called that tornado
>> a spirit. Such 'witko' spirits are often times avoided by those who
>> would make such a journey, because each spirit requires something
>> of those it would communicate with. An interesting, though likely
>> unknown movie called Powwow Highway has a leading character
>> who mentions his name 'Whirlwind Dreamer' this may have gone
>> over the heads of some people not understanding the reference to the
>> tornado, he also says 'but I am not yet worthy of it (the name)'.
>
> I have never heard of that movie before, but I am always looking for
> obscure and spiritual titles.
It shows NA's very accurately. It also shows that there are those
people who are still within the culture that are trying to follow the ways
of the ancestors, in today's world. Certainly a spiritual movie and
many issues affecting our people are shown but the central theme is
the protagonist in quest to obtain his name/identity.
>>
>> One of the most feared visions or spirit companions, though highly
>> revered, to have is Wakiyan (Thunder Beings) or the Witkotate
>> or crazed winds. Each, according to our culture, demand great
>> sacrifice by that person to the benefit of the people. <snip>
>>
>> I mention all this because, as a person whose guide is the tornado,
>> it would require long periods of (I'll use the term here for now)
>> meditation and privation in some isolated spot. It would require
>> that person to find confusion within the tribe and resolve it even
>> if it turned a clan upside down. It would require much purification
>> and thus I easily understand that you have come through a tumult
>> which most certainly has the semblance of a tornado.
An added note here. There are those who, having had an encounter
with their Spirit Guide (this is a new age term but does convey the meaning)
they may refuse that spirit, even deny it. A contrary might most certainly
wish to avoid the rigors required by the Thunder Beings.
>>
>> <snip>
>
> It is funny, I live in NY, and tornados here are rare, and ot as
> powerful as their midwest counterparts. However, for the past few years o
> the day that I celebrate my birthday a great storm front has come
> through and dropped a tornado that has come up to the restaurant that I
> have been in and skipped over it and landed on the other side. It has
> become sort of the family joke. At my high school graduation, and the
> summer that was a turning point in my life I had a tornado come down the
> road my house was on. We lived in a rural area just outside of the city.
Such relative spirits have a tendency of arriving prior to a time where
great upheavals are about to take place and are thus a portend, or augury
that should be heeded carefully.
One of my dear friends who was Scandinavian, held beliefs which
were Nordic in nature. He had shared with me that his 'Spirit Guide'
was Thor. Six weeks before his demise he told me he was being called
back. Then, upon the day of his death a very odd cloud came over the
VA Hospital, the smallest thunder-cloud I had ever seen and, to me,
it was centralized over the hospital. It dissipated shortly after his
death.
> No deaths in ay of these. There was some damage at my graduation, but
> none to any of the guests cars or my parents house. The rest of the road
> was impassable. I have to say, in ways to die, I would gladly be taken
> by a tornado at my time. Not to be too morbid, I am not looking to
> shuffle off the mortal coil yet.
Fortunate that greater damage wasn't done. I have seen two F5 tornadoes
during my lifespan, the town which is north of me was leveled and that
tornado was two miles wide. I have also seen playful F1's dance around
a farm in such a way that it appeared to be toying with it's inhabitants
and yet did no real damage except to throw a few things around.
>>
>>
>>>> Were you instead being rhetorical, meaning that you appreciate the
>>>>changes which have come into your life since that time?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well, that also. I am a bit of an elementalist. When you look at the
>>>elements and the way they act like a tonado you ca see similarities in
>>>spiritual interaction.
>>
>>
>> I think I have an understanding of 'elementalist'. In many
>> ceremonies
>> 'earth' has an important part to play. We build an earth altar and dress
>> it with flags and prayer ties with sweetgrass and sages and cedar. It
>> becomes a symbolic mountain and represents many things, one among
>> them is the vision quest hill where we present ourselves before
>> spirit in order to gain insight and understand of a vision which we
>> may have received. (although visions may come during the vision
>> quest, it's function is an invocation to spirit for direct attention
>> and intervention of spirit).
>
> I view earth as being more of the physical constants of the universe.
> The truth, and that which does not change. As we grow, parts of our
> spirit grow and mature, but there is that base consciousness that is the
> ego that is earth. winds move it's surface around, water cuts deep holes
> and valleys in it, and fire scorches it's surface and warms it, but
> that center is always there.
There is one being in my culture which we call Oyanksni, or forever,
which is the fire, we say is towards the center and around which
the people gather 'Peta Oyanksni'. Maka Ina (mother earth or sometimes
we say 'Unci Maka' grandmother earth). Mother Earth gives to all without
preference. In ceremony we dance upon her because we feel that she
can detect us dancing and it attracts her attention. In the sweat-lodge
we carve a hole to receive the stones. The hole is dug so that she can
breath (and indeed the fresh earth smell is released into the lodge). My
nation was never very agricultural and the concept of cutting into the
earth with a plow-share was appalling, much to the dismay of our
government captors.
The 'center' (hocoka) is not a constant in our way of seeing things. If
a tribe determines to have a Wacipi (dance) the center of the universe
is, for that while, at the center of the gathering, where the fire is. We
call that fire Peta Oyanksni, an eternal fire would be a translation and
wherever that fire is at any given time, there the center is. In this way
of seeing the center can not be pinned to any one place in the universe
and one could argue that everywhere is the center of the universe.
I can understand how you envision the earth as the center. I am not
saying your view is wrong but only saying how another view has
equal implications. As you have said, the path is manifold,
'different and completely meaningful'.
>>
>>
>>>That is why I think the wind is the true element
>>>of the shapeshifter. <snip>
>>
>> <snip>. To me it is Earth which is the element of shape change.
>> <snip>
>>
>
> It could also be that different animals may have different elements as
> their stronger force. I ca see where the earth is important for some,
> and most certainly from my years here I have seen that shape shifting
> means far different things for different people.
Indeed. Clearly different nations of people have their relationship
with differing elements. Otter, as an example, most surely has the
element of water at it's heart. They are a part of the environment
in which I live. A more fun-loving nation you will never find.
Shape shifting has such a wide variety of views. If I understand
your gist properly, you apply this idea of shape changing the
spirit, to loftier heights than the purely physical.
>I think wolves would be
> very water oriented being so attached to the moon and such. But like the
> Buddha says we all journey from beginning to end and each of us takes a
> different and completely meaningful path.
Wolf is an important figure with many tribes. Miyaka is an old name
for the nation. It was the 'wolves' who were our scouts before a
raiding party. In ceremonies the 'wolves' might appear at any given
time because the people say 'the wolf can go anywhere' (much like
the wind). Wolf Spirit, in the Osage understanding, is the one who
guides the people towards their path. He will not lead you along
that path but only show the path to you, leaving it up to you from
there.
>>
>>
>>>You can see moments where tornadoes come through your life. <snip>
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>> the small space of the sweat-lodge, we put water upon the
>> stones and the clouds which form help cleanse the body. During
>> the ritual the door is opened four times and the air rushes in and
>> in this way you get a GREAT dose of all four physical elements.
>
> That seems cool. Where do you find things like this? Here in NY we have
> very little of that sort of thing. It is a shame because I think that
> the northeast forests are some of the most lush and beautiful I have
> ever seen, and I am always drawn back to the mountains. If I ever win
> the lottery or get some cash I think I will have to buy a good bit of
> forest and make a spiritual preserve.
There are Seneca people in New York and many of those keep
their traditions. There should also be Powwow's going on
in some areas. Such places might allow you to meet people who
would invite you to participate in such a ceremony. It is never
impolite to ask if someone knows where a sweat-lodge might
be and who you should speak with. I would give them some
tobacco if they responded to my question.
>>
>>
>>>This can also be used in the casting of
>>>spells. <snip>
>>
>>
>> You won't see this within my own culture although there are some
>> tribes who do this kind of 'medicine'.<snip>
>>we should concentrate on the welfare of others.
>
> I have found the most success i using it to heal and regenerate life.
> One of my first experiences with the energy of nature was with a small
> tree. I grew up in a woodsy area of the suburbs of Westchester NY. Our
> road was dirt until just a few years ago. I can remember always playing
> in the woods with the trees and streams and birds and insects. One day
> after playing real hard I was exhausted. I could feel the energy of this
> plant almost calling too me. As a kid I just used it like a toy. I just
> pulled it within. Over the next week the tree began to wilt. It was then
> that I realized I cannot take too much even though the trees and
> creatures would give it. Don't worry the tree didn't die. I spent the
> next couple of weeks watering and pulling back the other leaves and
> making sure it got back on it's roots.
I am deeply attached to trees. Since I have already iterated in an
earlier post that attachment, I won't further describe it. I most certainly
believe that a tree might lend you energy. In the bear dance, the center
of the dance, is a tree.
>>
>>
>>>>>Well, to get to it, some friends of mine, and old remnants of this
>>>>>place
>>>>>had acquired a substance that would in essence annihilate reality and
>>>>>leave only the spirit there for a journey.
>>
>>
>> We are not allowed to say much about any given ceremony as it
>> is a sign of disrespect in our nation to do so. <snip>
>
> You have to watch out because some people take it so wrong. Like I had
> this fried who went off on trying datura or gypsum weed. You probably
> have a good idea of the power it has. He was not prepared for the
> spiritual trip. I have also seen some who just want to trip on it, and
> there are better things and more safe things to play with if that is
> your desire. Someday I may try some datura. I have wanted to try peyote
> in a spiritual sense. Just a few weeks of a spiritual exploration would
> be really great. Although I am not familiar with ceremony, I try to keep
> those experiences as an exploration, and I think that some of the
> effects are that the spirits are able to convey ideas much easier to us
> at these times. Our minds are not as encumbered by our bodies limits.
Fortunately our nation has kept a close relationship with the
plants we live with. Datura reminds me of Carlos who tried to
hassle Dr. Leary back in the sixties. Leary sent him away and Carlos C.
finally sought other sources for the drug. Such experimentation
was chique back in that day. I still advise asceticism as a better
connection to those qualities of yourself which you seek.
>
> Such a great rift was created by my ancestors who stormed across this
> land and really disturbed some very wise and insightful spiritualists.
> And even now in the current state of technology I think that these
> spiritualists would have brought us more to a relationship with the land
> and science had they not been put down so horribly. The understandings
> and ideas and applications of these sciences could really be expanded
> through spiritualism.
While true, there are many of us who try to put those things behind
us. Do be aware that even though my ancestors were forbidden
to practice the traditions, we never lost them and never stopped
practicing them, we simply made ourselves less visible and kept the
word of ceremony quiet. If we were discovered, it could mean
imprisonment or even death, but we all know there are some things
which are more important than life.
As I witness this world and it's path, from my limited viewpoint,
I see that the environment is growing as a concern, I see people
who are not just alarmists but are truly trying to guide us into
an understanding of our interconnectedness with our world. At
the same time I see a growing movements of people seeking out
the spiritual nature of our being and much understanding is
being regained. I am no doomsayer and have a hopeful outlook
upon the future.
>
> Like what I referred to with healing spells. I tend to heal very well. I
> guide my energies and try to understand my bodies nature to overcome or
> put off illness. In the case of a friend of mine a slight alteration in
> the nature of a tumor made it become not a life threatening thing and
> something that could be overcome.
Healing is certainly something which our nation concentrates upon.
We might have a ceremony where the intention is to bring health to
someone, they may become better, they may not. If any of us are
called 'healers' then it is by virtue of knowing the plants or by virtue
of a spirit allies we have the favor of. To heal, the Elders say we
must 'become like hollow bones' (like an empty straw through which
the water may pass). It is no power which we command but rather
an energy which we become conductive to.
>>
>> We go without food and purify ourselves before we enter that
>> ceremony. <SNIP>though we were all becoming one spirit and
>> not a mingling of spirits.
>>
> Please don't feel pressure to reveal stuff that should remain sacred.
Worry not, I speak openly about traditions because I promote the
keeping of traditions. I share much of my own understandings so
that these things are remembered and encourage others to make
ceremony an important part of their life, regardless of creed, culture
or tradition. There are no 'secrets' that are being kept, rather we
speak of these things with reverence and keep them sacred by
affording them special consideration. To become sacred one
becomes pure and 'Cante luta ognas moni' (walks in a sacred manner).
A parallel can be found in Judaism in the expression 'Walking
the straight and narrow' the above words translate 'Walking
the Red Road', interestingly 'road' and 'heart' are much the same
word in my families language.
> This is the internet after all. Certainly not the place to go spouting
> all sorts of things most people wont understand. I have had a desire to
> explore the spirit with others. Unfortunately, I tend to find people who
> are a lot of talk and not a lot of understanding. One of the things I
> have found to be quite enjoyable, and a good fried helped me out with
> this with a good gift on christmas, is media guided exploration.
>
I don't claim any great understanding, I feel that following the
vision of my youth has had a powerful impact upon my life, my
way of interacting with people and the respect of others I expect
of myself. Our culture states flatly, all nations (this is not just our
species but rather 'wamakaskan') are sacred and if I am walking
the good red road I will treat each person with respect even if
that respect is not returned.
I do not follow the media very much but I do agree that much of
it is art and has the ability of art to convey powerful feelings
and impart significant understandings to those witness to the
art. Having been in the Service in my late teens I had the
opportunity to see many lands and many peoples and cultures.
Because of that influence in my own life one will find me
counseling the early adults to consider going into the Service
as a means of learning more about their world. One need
not even be a warrior, even the Merchant Marines can provide
one the means to travel and experience more of the world.
> We are at a point where the ideas of artists can be conveyed through
> visual and auditory explorations. It isn't quite as good as having other
> people there, and you miss out on those who can't convey feeling through
> art, but I have found some great spiritual explorations in certain media.
>
I can see truth in what you are saying. That you are inspired
is enough and sometimes can be the motivator which causes a person
to begin following a spiritual path.
> First is Peter Gabriel and his videos. Even though he has achieved a
> high popularity I believe his music and his video ideas convey his
> experiences and spiritual discoveries. He is my favorite person for
> exploration. He does have a more African flavor to his works, but his
> ideas just come through and it is like a form of communication.
>
I am not familiar with these video, thank you for mentioning them
I will make it a point to find and digest a sampling.
> One of the other explorations I have enjoyed has come from the world of
> Animation. A title called "Cat Soup" This is an interesting trip into
> the universe and the land of the dead as guided by the creator. It is
> like a spiritual roller coaster if you will. It is a fun ride that I like
> to take for entertainment purposes. It also has the effect of opening
> ones consciousness and creativism.
>
If a lasting impression is made, then you are likely correct. For
myself, experience that is intensely individual, as in the ceremony
cited below, have been my path towards a greater view of things. Even
so, the Elders, sharing their own experiences with me, also left
deep impressions in my understandings and conversations held
thirty years ago remain fresh in my mind. Not very 'multi-media',
I know but in many ways similar in the effects upon me as you have
described your 'media exploration venues'.
>> The hambliceya (crying through the night) or vision quest ceremony
>> appears designed to strip the 'self' away and even the physical
>> senses may fail during the strenuous ceremony. <snip>
>
> I may have to try something like that, but that involves finding someone
> who can watch out for me while I am doing it. I can definitely see
> where the ascetic (I think I have spelled this wrong) ceremonies can
> bring great enlightenment. More often I use these times to gain a more
> instinctual mindset.
No, ascetic is a good way of describing such ceremonies. Such
are ecstatic journeys and are intensely personal, they dull rather
than sharpen the physical senses, it is the spiritual senses which
these practices are meant to augment.
> Not to belittle your journey, I certainly would not
> want to insult you, but I get to that point when I play paint ball. Yeah,
> i have to do the best with what I have.
I can see how that exercise would sharpen your senses. I fail to
see how it could be spiritually enlightening though.
><snip> What I do get into is the hunting of other humans. I
> don't need to hunt deer for food or take from the land in that way. So I
> tend to avoid it. What I like is being set against the cunning humans in
> the woods. Each of us stalking each other with human tools. We are not at
> that point where we need to kill each other, but we can slip into that
> predatory mindset and stalk and hunt. When I get with the right people
> it is very spiritual for me.
Hunting for my own peoples is a spiritual pursuit. I recently visited
with my Cheyenne and Arapaho friends. One of these whom I have
known for a few decades was trying to pawn a bow and mentioned
that he had shot a deer from a deer-stand using it. I gave him a hard
time and told him he was being washicu (takes the fat). I offered
to teach him a Deer song but there are not many these days who
are interested in 'that old stuff' and he wasn't interested in learning
it. The song I had in mind is powerful and is a prayer to the
Deer Nation who can not resist it's plea and the Deer Nation will
give-away to it's singer if there is the need. There are other
'hunting songs' which give honor to the four legged nations and
such songs are sung before a traditional hunt.
"Tze ka kiah katl, hey neyanga'
"comes the deer to my singing" is a translation of one repeated
phrase within the song.
>>
>> <snip> One of my Elders who is now walking
>> beyond the stars told me that a religion was a dead one without vision
>> and those who sought vision.
>
> I see christianity in a sort of theological stagnation. It's ceremony
> has become just ceremony for many, and there tends to be too much lip
> service. But I have met those who have a deep spiritualism within it.
> Christianity suffers from popularity.
I recently received some oppression at the hands of a devout
Christian. I became angry about it and it took some effort on
my behalf not to brand all 'Christians' as being of the same
mindset. As I have said, our people could embrace it because
vision and the seeking of vision and a closeness to Spirit is
a part of our life ways. Those prophets within the religion were
all seekers of visions, this is something every Native American
can relate to.
>>>>
>> As one of the few who will admit to having experienced a shape-shift,
>> I do not think that you are imprisoned by your senses. <snip>
>>I found
>> that I was a cloud hovering at the top of the lodge. I even had
>> the experience of raining! After that I took clouds a lot more
>> seriously.
>
> That must have been really cool. I have never felt that one before.
It is one shape shift that I always will regard fondly.
>>
>> <snip> take place in the space of a heart-beat.
>
> That is why I view the spirit as being beyond time. Our bodies and the
> physical world are subject to time, but the sprit can have vast changes
> happen in a blink, but they can be very in depth.
I emphatically agree.
>>
>>
>> I have had occasion to meet individual spirits. <snip>
>
> In some ways I am disappointed that I did not have the experience of
> growing up in a more spiritual place, but in some ways it has benefited
> me. I can see parallels between the spiritualism of native americans and
> the spiritualism of people of asian descent. The ideas of exploring
> elementalism. The ascetic ceremonies that bring about spiritual
> communication and understanding. The ideas of a greater sprit and ki. They
> almost compliment each other beautifully. The essence that is bear has
> certainly left it's mark upon you.
Thank you for that last comment, as for your earlier comment about
growing up in a more spiritual place; I know my rural upbringing
placed me in closer proximity to the earth than some but I don't think
that is necessary. There are always sacred places that can be visited.
As far as that goes, one can make their own 'sacred space' anywhere.
There do seem to be a lot of things which can be directly related
to some Asian ways within my own culture and there have been
scientists who have suggested that our own people were ancient
immigrants from that region of the planet. Our own belief is
contrary to that idea since we feel that we originated here on
this continent which many tribes liken to a giant tortoise. We
have a belief that each nation of peoples have come from
separate parts of the world and do not agree that all life started
in Mesopotamia. This is a traditional belief.
>
> For a while I thought maybe my spirit was a tornado. I know, that was
> silly, but it is through that I realized I am not a tornado, but it has
> left it's impression upon me, and through that I am sort of descended from
> that spirit.
>
My own people would regard you as a Whirlwind Dreamer and
recognize what you have said as being part of your vision.
>>>
>>>I am currently pondering if living is just communication.<snip>
>>
>>
>> It's an interesting thing to ponder. <snip>
>>
> Oh, I can see a spirit within them. They have an existence that is
> different from our current one, but it still is an existence. They still
> effect and exist. But of course I am preaching to the choir at this point.
True indeed but there is no harm in saying it.
>>>
>>>The universe as we know it has a spirit, but so do you. You are a part
>>>of the universe and affect it, as it affects you, but still are above
>>>and seperate from it as an identity.
>>
>>
>> I think I am one of a class of beings, one of many and far from
>> being unique, who seeks to be a part of the whole. In my own
>> view I consider existence as something imposed upon us where
>> we might learn that our true interest is in being with spirit as
>> a functioning whole, a gestalt of sorts which will not be complete
>> until all those who have separated themselves from spirit
>> return to make that spirit whole.
>
> Maybe that is the way that the original encompassing spirit grows.
This might be the case.
>>
>> <snip> Such a one is an asset to the environment
>> and thereby an important part of the whole, though an
>> individual, that bear is interwoven into the welfare of it's range.
>
> Oh truly we are part of a greater whole, but I wonder if like a mother
> grows a new life within that someday a part of this whole will go on to
> become another entity like the first universe. And certainly that would
> not be the goal of everything, but that certain parts would have that
> design.
Again an interesting thing to consider. Perhaps as I depart this
existence, my own spirit may mingle and increase the strength of
Mother Bear. I would gladly give my spirit to her if it would aid
in her own portion of the work which is the greater goal. If will
has anything to do with it, then I would find no greater reward
than functioning within the spirit world as a bear spirit. Lots of
work to do yet here, I will focus upon the other once I have
traveled beyond the stars myself and in the meantime try to
increment my own spiritual welfare and keep constant while
life remains in me.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
>>
>>
>> I think that, by virtue of existence, the spirit DOES change but
>> without the physical stage upon which to act, it can not.
>
> Well, that is where I see the earth part of the spirit coming in. Sure we
> change, but the original consciousness or spirit is still the same.
>
> At this point I am going to split this post.
> Yes, I will be responding to the rest, but it will take some time.
Take your time. I am always interested in gaining insights from
the viewpoint of others and glad too that I might share my own
reckonings.
The Huskyfoxwolfjackalcoyotehyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
against him.
>> There were once camps for comrades who had forgotten that they were
>> comrades.
>>
>> Camps for germans who had forgotten that they were germans too.
>
>Does this mean I get to be hitler again?
Who?
---
Wanderer
> Safari Whitelion <now...@here.net> shall never vanquished be until
> great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
> against him.
>
>
> Who?
>
. . .
And you call yourself a Communist.
Report to the Re-Education Facility at once!
Yours wolfishly,
The looking-askance,
Safari Whitelion
> "Safari Whitelion" >>>
>>>
>>
>>Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
>
>
> I think that, by virtue of existence, the spirit DOES change but
> without the physical stage upon which to act, it can not.
Well, that is where I see the earth part of the spirit coming in. Sure
we change, but the original consciousness or spirit is still the same.
>>> Our limitations define our field of action within life.
>>>
>>
>>But to have limitations implies that there is an existance beyond those
>>limitations. After all to limit us means that there is further to go.
>>
>
> There may be those whose design allows them to exceed their
> limitations perhaps. I play piano, I could practice forever
> and never become a concert pianist, it is not my forte. I might
> do a good job for a local club playing for those folks but
> people would suffer nausea and vacate the seats at Carnegie Hall
> were I to attempt playing there. I push my limits but I may
> never exceed them. At the same time I know and preserve
> hundreds of cultural songs, I can recall and vocalize them
> even under the most dire duress. Thus, my limitations have
> defined my field of practice.
I see this as being your part in the universe or greater spirit. There
are those who create music, and others who are athletes. There are those
who are scientifically oriented, and those who romance and emotion
define their actions. Currently we are limited, but there is a beyond in
many areas that we cannot reach.
But what if it was a design of some to go beyond the limits of our
existence. I am not trying to put a value on this like saying a spirit
like this would be better. Actually, it probably would be at times
miserable and driven to go beyond. But it would have a purpose sort of
like the reproductive cells in our body, to become more than just a part
of the whole, but maybe even a cosmic birth.
Then there is also the idea that within this greater spirit their may be
spirits meant to bring about it's death. Of course, I do not mean a
death as in an end, but a death as in an end to it's current state of
existing. As the composers are writing their new works, and the athletes
are reaching new highest, it would be within the nature of this spirit
to initiate change.
This may be a part of what shape shifters are. The idea that one can go
beyond their current form and understand more. This may be a part of a
greater mechanism for growth on a universal scale. Of course, while all
this is going on you need your worker bee spirits who do a myriad of
tasks, but who might not be as troubled with such things.
>
> My own culture teaches us to be observant of the present but to be
> mindful of the future. It is in the present that the seeds of the future
> are sewn.
> I have trouble trying to imagine 'gods' I have great reverence towards
> Mother Bear but do not consider her a goddess. Crow, as a spirit,
> has had a lot of influence in my life and even Dot'so (the deerfly)
> I hold in very high esteem likewise but my culture says there is
> only one 'God' which we call Wakonta and which means
> the great mystery, a Spirit beyond our ability to comprehend.
I don't use the words gods in the typical sense. Sorry, that is my
fault. When I use it I am referring to a spirit that would be a bit
beyond our full comprehension, but who would have creative powers. In a
way it would be like a god would be to us able to manipulate reality,
but instead it would be within a group of it's peers. Some might be what
we have fathomed through mythology, but I would see it more as just
another existence with it's own nuances. Communication within this realm
might be that of ideas and these different spirit's influence on it.
Like what you refer to as bear would be a spirit that does it's thing. I
am not seeing them as having the typical human weaknesses. They are
realized beings who do what they do because that is what they are. It
would be a diverse area of essences, and identities and sometimes when
trying to think about it I feel the obstruction of our current state of
existence. Sort of like it being too much for my brain, but not for my
mind.
>>
>
> With our own 'limited capacity' we may indeed create such things
> however when we operate via our spiritual connections we do, in
> essence, become unfettered.
Some people have mistaken my preoccupation with the spiritual as a
suicidal thing. I am forever trying to look beyond. But Certainly there
is so much to do and see here that I could never give up. Sure sometimes
I am impatient, but I know someday we will all be unfettered by this
physical existence which separates us and deceives us at times.
I have been pondering if someday all these electronic signals wont
resonate with a sort of global consciousness or spirit. Like we came to
this world and it was created without our real influence. The planets
formed on their own, and life goes on with or without us. But here we
may be seeing the beginning of net spirit that would have been created
by man. These machines in front of us have at times been fantasized as
our future replacements. But I see them differently. They let us see
within humanity in a way we never could before. What once was hidden is
now being exposed. It becomes hard to hate a person in another country
after you have been talking to them for a while. I think we are on the
verge of a global identity, and the net is becoming entrenched in the
human spirit.
For weres this may be the way nature brings it's presence into a human
created world. By endowing humans with animal spirits the spirit of
nature permeates the creation of man.
>>>
>>
>>Ahh, but they do alter the way we perceive the environment our body is
>>interacting with. In the case of dissacosiatives it gives us a sort of
>>reflective surface. Sure we are really just suffering the effects of the
>>drug, but we can see what happes as the signals of the physical world
get
>>scrambled and then cut off. Conciousness does ot fail, but rather loses
>>the confines of the body.
>
>
> As I have mentioned, I no longer attend Peyote Ceremonies because
> I have found greater understandings though the other sacred ceremonies.
> Consciousness, during the strain of some of the ceremonies may
> indeed fail, the physical strain, deprecation, isolation may cause one
> to lose consciousness of the self but may also liberate the spirit
> as you have described. I have been taken into the vision world
> on several occasions, in these times the spirit is set loose.
>
Well, I would like to sound all noble, and I would not object to hard
work. There is a little bit of laziness in there. I can't kid myself
there. Surely it does not have the purity, or safety of a more dedicated
exploration. The drug itself is at best a filter, and most certainly has
an influence of it's own that obscures perception. You are very correct
there.
>
> I said that mainly because I believe it is unproductive for people to
> feel that they are unique. We have a saying, which is also a prayer,
> that is Mitak uye Oyasin, meanings to that are 'We are All the same',
> "we are all related' and even 'I want to be with my relatives'. In my
> own culture there is a lot of diversity in 'medicines'. There are
> shield makers, there are arrow makers, there are holy people and
> in our culture even the most mentally challenged is considered
> sacred and we take measures to insure that those persons also are
> shown reverence, even looked up to for their medicines.
> Yet we are one tribe with three clans, the diversity creates the
> whole tribe so everyone is unique in that fashion but it is a
> cooperation between us which makes of us a tribe. Each medicine
> has it's purpose. Like a clock which has many gears and cogs,
> has numbers on it's face, has a main spring, each cog is different
> though it may mesh with another, each part is unique but all these
> parts are only one thing. Without the assembly, the parts
> remain unique but will not function as intended.
Ahhh, as part of a greater whole, yes I understand now.
>
> Good, I needed to understand that. Our motivations speak a lot
> about us. Discussions are important to my nation and while they
> may be fun, the intention is to gain insights to our own understandings
> by viewing them from the perspective of others. Thus we may
> grow to throw out an idea which we may favor when we gain a
> broader understanding such as that gained in a good discussion.
>
> Blackbear
I have a friend who I often get into great big arguments with over
philosophy. We yell and go after each others points and people think we
hate each other and are fighting, but when we are done we just sit back
and realize that this is why we are friends. Because we can disagree and
hammer out our conversations. I wouldn't give her up for anything, and
I am glad she disagrees with me. We have had some great conversations
that have really taught us both a lot. But that is not the way I
communicate with everyone.
I value a person's insight. It is when they can only offer someone
else's words that i lose out. Even if I don't agree with a person it
does not mean I have not taken from them an understanding that is valuable.
Oh well, on to the next :)
Safari
Safari Whitelion
>>Does this mean I get to be hitler again?
>
>
> Who?
good comeback
Safari
Blackbear
"Safari Whitelion" <now...@here.net> wrote in message
news:dMydnfuuFYe...@rcn.net...
> Blackbear wrote:
>> "Safari Whitelion" >>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Change is a constant, but the spirit remains the same.
>>
>>
>> I think that, by virtue of existence, the spirit DOES change but
>> without the physical stage upon which to act, it can not.
>
> Well, that is where I see the earth part of the spirit coming in. Sure
> we change, but the original consciousness or spirit is still the same.
>
>>>> Our limitations define our field of action within life.
>>>>
>>>
>>>But to have limitations implies that there is an existance beyond those
>>>limitations. After all to limit us means that there is further to go.
>>>
>>
>> There may be those whose design allows them to exceed their
>> defined my field of practice.
>
> I see this as being your part in the universe or greater spirit. There are
> those who create music, and others who are athletes. There are those who
> are scientifically oriented, and those who romance and emotion define
> their actions. Currently we are limited, but there is a beyond in many
> areas that we cannot reach.
>
> But what if it was a design of some to go beyond the limits of our
> existence. I am not trying to put a value on this like saying a spirit
> like this would be better. Actually, it probably would be at times
> miserable and driven to go beyond. But it would have a purpose sort of
> like the reproductive cells in our body, to become more than just a part
> of the whole, but maybe even a cosmic birth.
>
that our species has demonstrated that it's Spiritual understandings
have evolved over the past 6k years of fairly well recorded history.
The cosmology you're speaking of reminds me of Madam Blavatski.
If you are not familiar with her works you should consider investigating
them. Quite interesting, if a bit dusty, after 110 or so years. A critical
reader familiar with biology will see her describing meiosis as she
presents her 'Cosmogony' (which she insists had been revealed to her).
A student of biology would find this a remarkable thing since she was
writing it in 1890 (meiosis was known by 1958 but she would have
refused being aware of that and likely wasn't).
She describes just such a Cosmic Birth as you are suggesting.
> Then there is also the idea that within this greater spirit their may be
> spirits meant to bring about it's death. Of course, I do not mean a death
> as in an end, but a death as in an end to it's current state of existing.
> As the composers are writing their new works, and the athletes are
> reaching new highest, it would be within the nature of this spirit to
> initiate change.
>
This is an area that has interested me for a long time. Are there
destructive spirits? Is Kali a reasonable concept? We know that
in the physical world the processes of entropy will cause any
system to eventually run down. (science was and remains concerned
about thermodynamics in relation to our universe, is it a closed
or an open universe?) Now let me shift my focus, An incident
which I experienced about seven years ago, involved a 'Deer Medicine'
person who was making 'bad medicine' (these are odd terms but I'll
use them here). The Deer person entreated his Spirit guide to do
harm to another person. He was """using""" Deer spirit as a
destructive force and there was a price for him and for the one who
'hired' him (yes, hired since money changed hands).
I saw the result and aftermath. I was shocked, honestly I
could not conceive of approaching Spirit with the intention of
bringing harm to another, at least then, though it was something
I had heard about but more or less discounted. For myself,
nothing could cause me to approach my own Spirit Guide with
anything but the welfare of our nations in mind. It did get me
thinking though. Perhaps these Spirits do not understand our
concept of 'good' and of 'evil' (hecatu and iyashica). If this
is the case then Kali is not a reasonable concept and destructive
spirits are not a class of spirits, but perhaps an aspect of Spirit.
> This may be a part of what shape shifters are. The idea that one can go
> beyond their current form and understand more. This may be a part of a
> greater mechanism for growth on a universal scale. Of course, while all
> this is going on you need your worker bee spirits who do a myriad of
> tasks, but who might not be as troubled with such things.
Yep, a worker bee. *grabs the honey jar* a background worker
in a huge engineering enterprise, mentioning bees reminds me of
'Super Animals' a termite mound's inhabitant, being such a creature.
This is more how I see my part within the spirit world as an
entity in that world.
>>
>> My own culture teaches us to be observant of the present but to be
>> mindful of the future. It is in the present that the seeds of the future
>> are sewn.
>> I have trouble trying to imagine 'gods' <snip> my culture says there is
>> only one 'God' which we call Wakonta and which means
>> the great mystery, a Spirit beyond our ability to comprehend.
>
> I don't use the words gods in the typical sense. Sorry, that is my fault.
> When I use it I am referring to a spirit that would be a bit beyond our
> full comprehension, but who would have creative powers. In a way it would
> be like a god would be to us able to manipulate reality, but instead it
> would be within a group of it's peers. Some might be what we have fathomed
> through mythology, but I would see it more as just another existence with
> it's own nuances. Communication within this realm might be that of ideas
> and these different spirit's influence on it.
>
Interesting speculation. Spirit is certainly beyond our understanding
and that is one of it's aspects since it transcends physical existence. I
have to reflect upon an instance when Mother Bear had me warn a
person about danger nearby. She took me into the vision and showed
me the house of the person who was the danger, showed me the
possible future where that danger was presenting itself. I did as
instructed by Mother Bear. The situation came and because of
the warning (a shotgun was involved) the person I warned escaped
being harmed as the vision had shown.
This illustrates to me how far beyond my comprehension that
Spirit is, seeing many possibly futures and nudging the 'time-line'
along in some intentional way is way beyond my ability to
imagine well.
> Like what you refer to as bear would be a spirit that does it's thing. I
> am not seeing them as having the typical human weaknesses. They are
> realized beings who do what they do because that is what they are. It
> would be a diverse area of essences, and identities and sometimes when
> trying to think about it I feel the obstruction of our current state of
> existence. Sort of like it being too much for my brain, but not for my
> mind.
Yes, I agree and this is how I see Bear Spirit and those other spirits
who I have relationships with.
>>>
>>
>> With our own 'limited capacity' we may indeed create such things
>> however when we operate via our spiritual connections we do, in
>> essence, become unfettered.
>
> Some people have mistaken my preoccupation with the spiritual as a
> suicidal thing. I am forever trying to look beyond. But Certainly there is
> so much to do and see here that I could never give up. Sure sometimes I am
> impatient, but I know someday we will all be unfettered by this physical
> existence which separates us and deceives us at times.
>
Impatience can do nothing. When we prepare for a ceremony it
can take days and the ceremonies themselves can last for days. Learning
patience is very important. Without the patience of preparation, our
minds would not be in the proper frame to participate in a ceremony.
So, the act of getting ready helps direct our minds towards those
loftier ideals and keeps us centered. While it may take longer than
the action of chemical agents (which could indeed bring about your
expiration while seeking enlightenment) the patience, the preparation
and the ceremonial actions themselves will help bring you towards
enlightenment and most likely not kill you =)
> I have been pondering if someday all these electronic signals wont
> resonate with a sort of global consciousness or spirit. Like we came to
> this world and it was created without our real influence. The planets
> formed on their own, and life goes on with or without us. But here we may
> be seeing the beginning of net spirit that would have been created by man.
While I found the book ponderous, Tad Williams' "Sea of Silver Light"
volume IV centrals his theme on this very subject, a net 'consciousness'
and the creation of a new life-form (has good antagonists in it, btw).
>These machines in front of us have at times been fantasized as our future
>replacements. But I see them differently. They let us see within humanity
>in a way we never could before. What once was hidden is now being exposed.
>It becomes hard to hate a person in another country after you have been
>talking to them for a while. I think we are on the verge of a global
>identity, and the net is becoming entrenched in the human spirit.
>
Yes, I think we are slowly obtaining a global identity though I would
protract that forward about twenty years and maybe as long as fifty
more before it truly is so. Currently there are too many divergent
cultures, at odds with one another.
> For weres this may be the way nature brings it's presence into a human
> created world. By endowing humans with animal spirits the spirit of nature
> permeates the creation of man.
I have postulated before that, due to the reducing habitat of the other
nations besides the hominid one, that these other nation spirits still
exist but are restricted from entering the world unless it is via being
born as a hominid instead of one's native species. It would explain
a few things but is only a conjecture on my own part.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ahh, but they do alter the way we perceive the environment our body is
>>>interacting with. In the case of dissacosiatives it gives us a sort of
>>>reflective surface. Sure we are really just suffering the effects of the
>>>drug, but we can see what happes as the signals of the physical world
> get
>>>scrambled and then cut off. Conciousness does ot fail, but rather loses
>>>the confines of the body.
>>
>>
>> As I have mentioned, I no longer attend Peyote Ceremonies because
>> I have found greater understandings though the other sacred ceremonies.
>> Consciousness, during the strain of some of the ceremonies may
>> indeed fail, the physical strain, deprecation, isolation may cause one
>> to lose consciousness of the self but may also liberate the spirit
>> as you have described. I have been taken into the vision world
>> on several occasions, in these times the spirit is set loose.
>>
> Well, I would like to sound all noble, and I would not object to hard
> work. There is a little bit of laziness in there. I can't kid myself
> there. Surely it does not have the purity, or safety of a more dedicated
> exploration. The drug itself is at best a filter, and most certainly has
> an influence of it's own that obscures perception. You are very correct
> there.
>
I'll use this opportunity to again encourage taking a real and
extended ecstatic journey. Not via any agent except your own
capabilities. Arrange time off work, arrange a place that you will
spend your time. Purify yourself beforepaw through abstinence
and temperance. Arrange that six people whom you can trust to
pray for you during your journey will do that for you while you
are there, if they agree, give them a simple gift to honor them.
Prepare yourself and commit to 24 hours of solitude during which
you should keep a vigil and invite the spirit to approach you.
Take note of everything that happens. Our habliceya is generally
72 hours of privation, but I encourage the newly practiced to
first commit to 24 hours without leaving the vision quest spot
before they undertake a three day vision quest.
You do not need any more than this to have a deeply spiritual
experience. Myself, I'm very thick headed so it takes me at
LEAST a day to get myself out of the way before I begin to
become receptive.
I'll even guarantee you that you will never forget the experience
and will think back fondly over it even if you never try it
again. The majority of those who have done this, return and
will soon commit to longer periods of abject devotion.
>>
>> I said that mainly because I believe it is unproductive for people to
>> feel that they are unique. We have a saying, which is also a prayer,
>> that is Mitak uye Oyasin, meanings to that are 'We are All the same',
>> "we are all related' and even 'I want to be with my relatives'. I<snip>
>> Without the assembly, the parts
>> remain unique but will not function as intended.
>
> Ahhh, as part of a greater whole, yes I understand now.
>
>>
>> <snip>Thus we may
>> grow to throw out an idea which we may favor when we gain a
>> broader understanding such as that gained in a good discussion.
>>
>
> I have a friend who I often get into great big arguments with over
> philosophy. We yell and go after each others points and people think we
> hate each other and are fighting, but when we are done we just sit back
> and realize that this is why we are friends. Because we can disagree and
> hammer out our conversations. I wouldn't give her up for anything, and I
> am glad she disagrees with me. We have had some great conversations that
> have really taught us both a lot. But that is not the way I communicate
> with everyone.
>
It is good to think on such things, if only to exercise one's belief
systems. It is always good to look upon those things you think and
determine if you still feel the same way about them now as you had
formerly thought of them. Most always such things serve as
affirmations of faith though they can result in one gaining an even
greater appreciation of things or even throwing out an old 'idea' that
no longer fits in with your world view. It promotes Spiritual Growth.
> I value a person's insight. It is when they can only offer someone else's
> words that i lose out. Even if I don't agree with a person it does not
> mean I have not taken from them an understanding that is valuable.
>
The meeting of minds is always a good thing.
Blackbear
blackbear at bear371 dot com
The Cheese Hyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.horror.werewolves. hill shall come
against him.
It'S SPRINGTIME FOR HITLER!!!
Safari Whitelion
my costume for Katsucon I haven't had much time to do a good reply to
anything so I waited.
Blackbear wrote:
> "Safari Whitelion" <now...@here.net> wrote in message
> news:dMydnfuuFYe...@rcn.net...
>
>>Blackbear wrote:
>>
>>>"Safari Whitelion" >>>
> I don't know if Spirit is also subject to evolution, though I think
> that our species has demonstrated that it's Spiritual understandings
> have evolved over the past 6k years of fairly well recorded history.
> The cosmology you're speaking of reminds me of Madam Blavatski.
> If you are not familiar with her works you should consider investigating
> them. Quite interesting, if a bit dusty, after 110 or so years. A critical
> reader familiar with biology will see her describing meiosis as she
> presents her 'Cosmogony' (which she insists had been revealed to her).
> A student of biology would find this a remarkable thing since she was
> writing it in 1890 (meiosis was known by 1958 but she would have
> refused being aware of that and likely wasn't).
> She describes just such a Cosmic Birth as you are suggesting.
I the absence of computers wa back then biology was one of my stronger
suits. I have noticed a lot of patterns i existence, and that is mainly
what I use to extrapolate an understanding of the spiritual experiences
and learning I have. I also fear that one day there will be an ed to
evolution or growth. that isn't to say there isn't a time for stopping
and exploring what is around you. It isn't a race, but if you view the
spirit as eternal, and there is an end to the path of evolution, then
change become obsolete, and my faith falls apart. In a way faith is
knowing you are right in the face of an equally possible and likely
alternative.
I do find that when I explore people that there is a diversity in the
purpose to their existence. Different people are satisfied y different
things. What if that is sort of a hidden instinct. Granted, it is part
of your identity, but it also directs what you do, and how you do it. I
came to this conclusion while looking for a purpose for weres. Why would
you need to put an animal type of spirit into a human. But what if it
was more of a similarity or a matter of identifying with a animal that
corresponds with our spirits nature in a sort of spiritual ecosystem.
This could explain why their are few werecows. A predatory spirit would
find that understanding it's surroundings and environment would help
it's hunting. Where as a cow just does it's thing and sort of lets
things happen to it. Sort of the idea of prey being to preoccupied with
flight and worrying about things that they don't pay attention to the
spiritual as much. They follow a shepherd like Jesus. This is not to say
that we are praying on people's spirits, but that our spirits being more
similar to a predatory animal may cause us to seek more alternatives.
>
> This is an area that has interested me for a long time. Are there
> destructive spirits? Is Kali a reasonable concept? We know that
> in the physical world the processes of entropy will cause any
> system to eventually run down. (science was and remains concerned
> about thermodynamics in relation to our universe, is it a closed
> or an open universe?) Now let me shift my focus, An incident
> which I experienced about seven years ago, involved a 'Deer Medicine'
> person who was making 'bad medicine' (these are odd terms but I'll
> use them here). The Deer person entreated his Spirit guide to do
> harm to another person. He was """using""" Deer spirit as a
> destructive force and there was a price for him and for the one who
> 'hired' him (yes, hired since money changed hands).
>
> I saw the result and aftermath. I was shocked, honestly I
> could not conceive of approaching Spirit with the intention of
> bringing harm to another, at least then, though it was something
> I had heard about but more or less discounted. For myself,
> nothing could cause me to approach my own Spirit Guide with
> anything but the welfare of our nations in mind. It did get me
> thinking though. Perhaps these Spirits do not understand our
> concept of 'good' and of 'evil' (hecatu and iyashica). If this
> is the case then Kali is not a reasonable concept and destructive
> spirits are not a class of spirits, but perhaps an aspect of Spirit.
>
For a moment I am going to use christianity. This is a dangerous idea
that only fits when one realizes who they are spiritually. But good and
evil are relative. What would be good to god would be evil to satan. and
vice versa. However, Satan is only doing what he is meant to do, and
looking at it from his point of view he would be the epitome of good.
But that is not to say that actions do not have consequence. Too many
people can parrot that idea, but they do not understand where they fit.
If we throw out the idea of a universal right ad wrong we are left with
what is right and wrong for my spirit. That is not as easy to say as one
might think. This is also where I feel Karma comes in. Karma is not a
cosmic justice, but rather the realization of the effect one's actions
have had. Now if you have stayed true to yourself you have done your
part and have influenced your environment. If you have not you have
betrayed yourself and worked against yourself.
In my own personal view I do identify with a corruptive spirit. Some
would view that as a negative thing, but of course it is necessary. In
our ecosystem if everything stayed the way it was we would be buried in
dead things. But in a spiritual and mind oriented sense corruption is
also needed. Long ago the ideas that blacks were slaves needed to be
undermined and destroyed. The eurocentric christianity steamroller still
needs to be corrupted. Not that Christianity needs to be destroyed, but
that it's weaker parts need to be eaten away at. But corruption and
decay are normally associated with evil. Personally I find them to be
noble and good. But they are part of me, and why am I going to not like
myself.
>
>>This may be a part of what shape shifters are. The idea that one can go
>>beyond their current form and understand more. This may be a part of a
>>greater mechanism for growth on a universal scale. Of course, while all
>>this is going on you need your worker bee spirits who do a myriad of
>>tasks, but who might not be as troubled with such things.
>
>
> Yep, a worker bee. *grabs the honey jar* a background worker
> in a huge engineering enterprise, mentioning bees reminds me of
> 'Super Animals' a termite mound's inhabitant, being such a creature.
> This is more how I see my part within the spirit world as an
> entity in that world.
My wereism is a bit different than most. From what I have seen people
aren't necessarily limited to the one animal, but rather are biased
towards that animal. They could explore other animals, but none would
fit as well. Super animals :) If we were so super we would be able to
stop people from polluting the environment.
>
> Interesting speculation. Spirit is certainly beyond our understanding
> and that is one of it's aspects since it transcends physical existence. I
> have to reflect upon an instance when Mother Bear had me warn a
> person about danger nearby. She took me into the vision and showed
> me the house of the person who was the danger, showed me the
> possible future where that danger was presenting itself. I did as
> instructed by Mother Bear. The situation came and because of
> the warning (a shotgun was involved) the person I warned escaped
> being harmed as the vision had shown.
> This illustrates to me how far beyond my comprehension that
> Spirit is, seeing many possibly futures and nudging the 'time-line'
> along in some intentional way is way beyond my ability to
> imagine well.
>
We have blinders on when it comes to spirit. Although our 5 senses do
well at sensing the physical, I sometimes feel that they are in a way
the blinders that hold us back.
>>Some people have mistaken my preoccupation with the spiritual as a
>>suicidal thing. I am forever trying to look beyond. But Certainly there is
>>so much to do and see here that I could never give up. Sure sometimes I am
>>impatient, but I know someday we will all be unfettered by this physical
>>existence which separates us and deceives us at times.
>>
>
> Impatience can do nothing. When we prepare for a ceremony it
> can take days and the ceremonies themselves can last for days. Learning
> patience is very important. Without the patience of preparation, our
> minds would not be in the proper frame to participate in a ceremony.
> So, the act of getting ready helps direct our minds towards those
> loftier ideals and keeps us centered. While it may take longer than
> the action of chemical agents (which could indeed bring about your
> expiration while seeking enlightenment) the patience, the preparation
> and the ceremonial actions themselves will help bring you towards
> enlightenment and most likely not kill you =)
This is true. I could attempt to justify it, but it really boils down to
being way to full of myself.
>
>>These machines in front of us have at times been fantasized as our future
>>replacements. But I see them differently. They let us see within humanity
>>in a way we never could before. What once was hidden is now being exposed.
>>It becomes hard to hate a person in another country after you have been
>>talking to them for a while. I think we are on the verge of a global
>>identity, and the net is becoming entrenched in the human spirit.
>>
>
> Yes, I think we are slowly obtaining a global identity though I would
> protract that forward about twenty years and maybe as long as fifty
> more before it truly is so. Currently there are too many divergent
> cultures, at odds with one another.
Very true. This is why I don't complain too much about the way the US is
out sourcing jobs overseas. The more people get connected to the net,
the more chance I have to get a glimpse into their culture and ideas. We
may be far from a global identity, but we do seem to be moving towards it.
>
>
>>For weres this may be the way nature brings it's presence into a human
>>created world. By endowing humans with animal spirits the spirit of nature
>>permeates the creation of man.
>
>
> I have postulated before that, due to the reducing habitat of the other
> nations besides the hominid one, that these other nation spirits still
> exist but are restricted from entering the world unless it is via being
> born as a hominid instead of one's native species. It would explain
> a few things but is only a conjecture on my own part.
An interesting idea might be that the animal spirits are choosing to
ride along with us to get a better understanding. They may be observing
us too :)
Sounds like fun. I will have to try it this summer.
Safari
Blackbear
> Sorry about the long wait, but between a new job, paintball, and sewing my
> costume for Katsucon I haven't had much time to do a good reply to
> anything so I waited.
>
that sewing is a regular part of maintenance. New jobs are always
taxing until you're used to the routine.
Change appears to be a constant in the universe, I can not see
how it should ever become obsolete. It may if we live in a finite
universe, I suppose.
> I do find that when I explore people that there is a diversity in the
> purpose to their existence. Different people are satisfied y different
> things. What if that is sort of a hidden instinct. Granted, it is part of
> your identity, but it also directs what you do, and how you do it. I came
> to this conclusion while looking for a purpose for weres. Why would you
> need to put an animal type of spirit into a human. But what if it was more
> of a similarity or a matter of identifying with a animal that corresponds
> with our spirits nature in a sort of spiritual ecosystem.
>
I like the concept of a 'Spiritual Ecosystem". On the Why would
you need to put an animal spirit into a human? First humans are
hominids and by definition, animal. When you say, put a spirit into
human you have accepted that there is a spirit outside of the
boundaries of physical existence, you have taken this on faith built
either by systems you have learned or by direct experience which
has produced in you the faith in spirit as a differentiated entity. It
isn't
anything you can nail down scientifically. Accepting that we can
conjecture at length.
On "what if it was ...a matter of identifying with an animal that
corresponds with our spirit's nature"
In a Native American viewpoint this is just what we do when
seeking one's 'Spirit Guide' (a new age term but applicable)
but that is not a choice, we may quest for that and meet up with
any number of beings, for instance, within the Cheyenne and
Arapaho traditions one seldom finds large animals upon the
plains and has a better chance of running into Rabbit or Rat
or Hummingbird and more rarely running into the more
acclaimed 'Spirit Guides' in such a quest.
Wolf is one of the Icons which, in this group, surfaces more
than any other, which is not surprising given the nature of this
group. Within tribal understandings, Wolf comes to a person
when they need the guidance to find their path in life. Wolf
knows all the paths but will only lead you to the path, not lead
you along the path towards your self-realization. Wolf may
appear in one's character or within one's self-identify but does
this make them a wolf-like person or is wolf trying to help
someone to find their own path which may be anything other
than wolf.
A person might identify with wolf when they observe their
own family and see many of the same structures of family as
existing within the wolf pack. One might identify with wolf
because of simply aesthetic reasons, beauty of form, economy
of motion, endurance, loyalty to family.
I can remember a time in my own life when 'Rabbit' was
a strong influence. I was still suffering from a bit of post
trauma from the Vietnam era and I had an unreasoning fear.
There was nowhere to run, every place seemed to harbor
danger. I became very much a rabbit, running straight into
the jaws of danger. Through placing myself in dangerous
surroundings (I was living on the Cheyenne/Arapaho Rez
at the time) I was attempting to fight my fear using danger
as an instrument.
At that point in my life I certainly felt more related to
rabbit as corresponding to my spirit. It was however a result
of social conditions which caused that effect and perhaps
a way for me to work that out within my own psyche in order
to find a balance.
> This could explain why their are few werecows. A predatory spirit would
> find that understanding it's surroundings and environment would help it's
> hunting. Where as a cow just does it's thing and sort of lets things
> happen to it. Sort of the idea of prey being to preoccupied with flight
> and worrying about things that they don't pay attention to the spiritual
> as much. They follow a shepherd like Jesus. This is not to say that we are
> praying on people's spirits, but that our spirits being more similar to a
> predatory animal may cause us to seek more alternatives.
In a study of were-creatures most often it is a predatory creature
who is seen. I think this is a cultural thing but it is not universal.
In the Yaqi Nation, Deer (certainly no predator) is highly regarded
and one could argue a case for Werecervidae. Deer are very alert
to their surroundings, there is not much that goes unnoticed by them,
In several tribes one can find such "Deer People" and those who
practice what could be called witchcraft within those tribes are
merited as being able to become deer. I can also cite an instance
within recent history when a whole band who were trying to flee the
oppressors all became Buffalo while within sight of the pursuers and
went un-molested. The leader, seeing the approach of the enemy, bade
all there to put their buffalo robes on, backwards (fur out) rather
than to run. There is conjecture as to whether the band became
Buffalo or were only perceived as buffalo.
In western history within the record of European were-wolvery
there is an account of a were-mouse. A husband bars his wife
from going out but she is able to anyway. He finds her mouse
skin and does away with it and the woman is no longer able to
transform into a mouse. If you need data on that see M. Summers
"The Werewolf".
I'm not sure how instrumental it is to compare one world religion
with another. Nations, like individuals, have different ways and
understandings. If one cites the Bible and wants to look at the concept
you are speaking of, Job is the example you may like. There one finds
Satan and God within the same 'firmament' and looking with interest
towards those living upon the earth. God is having a discussion with
Satan and God is appreciating Job for his absolute loyalty. Satan thinks
he can assuage the fellow. The two forces represented are not at odds with
one another, indeed they are conversing amiably with one another.
This is not a stereotypical view of these two divines.
I do understand your point though. In the movie, "Jacob's Ladder"
the protagonist is confronted with this good v. evil conundrum.
His 'spirit guide' upon hearing that Jacob is seeing and worried by
demons, states 'Demons are really Angels trying to help you separate
you from those things which are holding you back from heaven'
I had to paraphrase but it was a very salient idea to ponder.
> But that is not to say that actions do not have consequence. Too many
> people can parrot that idea, but they do not understand where they fit. If
> we throw out the idea of a universal right ad wrong we are left with what
> is right and wrong for my spirit. That is not as easy to say as one might
> think. This is also where I feel Karma comes in. Karma is not a cosmic
> justice, but rather the realization of the effect one's actions have had.
> Now if you have stayed true to yourself you have done your part and have
> influenced your environment. If you have not you have betrayed yourself
> and worked against yourself.
>
Karma I am not qualified to speak about. I have only a cursory
familiarity with Brahma, Vishnu, Arjuna, et al as represented in the
Reg Vedas. I was given to understand that Karma and Dharma
are forces operating in the world of men. Karma appears to be
related to an on-going process of evolution of spirit within man
which provides the circumstances accrued from a former life
to set the stage for advancement in a subsequent one. Dharma
was more like what-goes-around-comes-around sort of thing. If
I were to try to see this using Christianity as a tool of understanding
I should have to reflect upon the 'Judgement' where Christ is
separating the 'goats' from the 'sheep'. One goat complains and
asks when had they ever denied Christ and good Emmanuel says
that it happened when they didn't visit the sick or cloth the poor.
If my understanding of Karma is accurate then surely this portion
of that body of understanding is talking about Karma.
> In my own personal view I do identify with a corruptive spirit. Some would
> view that as a negative thing, but of course it is necessary. In our
> ecosystem if everything stayed the way it was we would be buried in dead
> things. But in a spiritual and mind oriented sense corruption is also
> needed. Long ago the ideas that blacks were slaves needed to be undermined
> and destroyed. The eurocentric christianity steamroller still needs to be
> corrupted. Not that Christianity needs to be destroyed, but that it's
> weaker parts need to be eaten away at. But corruption and decay are
> normally associated with evil. Personally I find them to be noble and
> good. But they are part of me, and why am I going to not like myself.
Please be aware that you are the one using Christianity as an instance
for debate and this has the effect of me restricting my comments.
I am not the best suited to make this debate since my own path does
not dogmatically follow the edicts of that system, though I would
submit that my path does emulate the path of Christ. There are
a lot of Ursine references to Christ within those traditions btw.
In regards to the statement you made above, you have an
example of a mercenary who allies himself with Emmanuel and
who later takes his pay in silver, this is Judas naturally. We are
told that he later kills himself (we're not really told why) but there
is a very important thing to consider. Judas was absolutely
necessary in order that the prophecies be fulfilled. Here's
the sticky wicket. Did Mr. Iscariot act in the interest of Christianity?
Was he not a destructive force? What about the historic era of
the reformation? Also, why do the letters to the churches warn
of false preachers calling them inwardly 'ravening wolves'?
How about the schism which separated the early church into
Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, really about the
interpretation of a single Latin phrase, was this decay taking
place?
In the letters it can be seen that it IS important to go in and
break up those groups who do not actually promote the
welfare of the religion's followers. This is not too far away
from your own statement that the weaker should be eaten away
at. As for saying that corruption and decay are noble, They are
the same word first and all of that which exists is noble.
In the world decay is part of the cycle of living things. It is
intertwined with life. What is offal to one is a feast to another.
When one looks at the flowers in a bed one seldom notices
the manure below them which is nourishing their blossoms.
I consider it noble of a person to have the desire and drive to
fight against those things which would sully any given system
of understanding. My own world understanding makes less
differentiation between articles of spirit. Rather than seeing
an opposition of two concepts, i.e. good and evil, I only have
one concept of Spirit that is inclusive of both but which, from
our hominid, viewpoint appear as opposites.
>>
>>>This may be a part of what shape shifters are. The idea that one can go
>>>beyond their current form and understand more. This may be a part of a
>>>greater mechanism for growth on a universal scale. Of course, while all
>>>this is going on you need your worker bee spirits who do a myriad of
>>>tasks, but who might not be as troubled with such things.
>>
>>
>> Yep, a worker bee. *grabs the honey jar* a background worker
>> in a huge engineering enterprise, mentioning bees reminds me of
>> 'Super Animals' a termite mound's inhabitant, being such a creature.
>> This is more how I see my part within the spirit world as an
>> entity in that world.
>
> My wereism is a bit different than most. From what I have seen people
> aren't necessarily limited to the one animal, but rather are biased
> towards that animal. They could explore other animals, but none would fit
> as well. Super animals :) If we were so super we would be able to stop
> people from polluting the environment.
Mine also. I feel that I am under a geis to make my monthly ecstatic
journeys. I sincerely believe that harm would come to me were I not
to spend that time being-a-bear but worse, that harm would come all
around this location if I failed in my spiritual obligations. I am a
bear but I relate to many other animals. All of those animals in
my environment are very special to me. Crow also has had much
influence for me. During a vision there was an instance when
the wind picked at my fur carrying it away from me enough to see
that inside the fur were many crow feathers, as though growing
there. If I could be an animal other than hominid or bear, I would
surely be a crow. I'd be a bear in a crow's body though.
>>
>> Interesting speculation. Spirit is certainly beyond our understanding
>> and that is one of it's aspects since it transcends physical existence.
>> I
>> have to reflect upon an instance when Mother Bear had me warn a
>> person about danger nearby. She took me into the vision and showed
>> me the house of the person who was the danger, showed me the
>> possible future where that danger was presenting itself. I did as
>> instructed by Mother Bear. The situation came and because of
>> the warning (a shotgun was involved) the person I warned escaped
>> being harmed as the vision had shown.
>> This illustrates to me how far beyond my comprehension that
>> Spirit is, seeing many possibly futures and nudging the 'time-line'
>> along in some intentional way is way beyond my ability to
>> imagine well.
>>
> We have blinders on when it comes to spirit. Although our 5 senses do well
> at sensing the physical, I sometimes feel that they are in a way the
> blinders that hold us back.
>
This is the function of ceremony and ecstatic journeys, to remove
the blinders which fetter us.
>>>Some people have mistaken my preoccupation with the spiritual as a
>>>suicidal thing. I am forever trying to look beyond. But Certainly there
>>>is so much to do and see here that I could never give up. Sure sometimes
>>>I am impatient, but I know someday we will all be unfettered by this
>>>physical existence which separates us and deceives us at times.
>>>
>>
>> Impatience can do nothing. When we prepare for a ceremony it
>> can take days and the ceremonies themselves can last for days. Learning
>> patience is very important. Without the patience of preparation, our
>> minds would not be in the proper frame to participate in a ceremony.
>> So, the act of getting ready helps direct our minds towards those
>> loftier ideals and keeps us centered. While it may take longer than
>> the action of chemical agents (which could indeed bring about your
>> expiration while seeking enlightenment) the patience, the preparation
>> and the ceremonial actions themselves will help bring you towards
>> enlightenment and most likely not kill you =)
>
> This is true. I could attempt to justify it, but it really boils down to
> being way to full of myself.
>
Honesty is always refreshing. We are the horses whose rider is Ego.
I think this certainly interesting and worth considering. I know that
Mother Bear does observations of me as well some other Spirits who
I have association with have shown themselves cognizant of my
actions. That a given animal spirit might attach themselves to a
person would seem likely from my own viewpoint.
Glad to hear it. I feel strongly that you will benefit by doing this.
It has been a powerful force within my own life and I wish I had
began this path earlier, when the vision first came to me rather
than putting it off into my later 20's. Hindsight.
Blackbear
bear371dotcom