Weremythics
James Harrion III
Raphiel (rap...@it.com.au) wrote:
: Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
: some dragons around here, and a manticore.. do we have any unicorns,
: pegasi, minotaurs and so forth?
:
: And how could such things come into being if they never existed? :)
That's actually a question I've wondered about at various times myself.
So far all I can think of is that:
1) They did exist, and for various reasons they don't exist now.
2) They never stopped existing.
3) They never existed at all (this one I have some problems with at
an intellectual level)
All of this, of course, is predicated on how you define existence. If you
define it as physical existence then unless our view of reality is very
badly skewed then I'm not sure if they ever existed. That isn't a definite
'no' however.
If you take a looser definition of existence, that people still remember
them, then I'd say that they have existed since the myths were still told,
and will continue to exist for a very long time. The downfall of that
approach is that it can be interpreted in a way to imply that these things
wouldn't exist without people to think of them, and I have a problem
with this as well at least in certain cases.
A similar interesting question is how there are werewolves in Australia
when the only canids were, I believe, brought by the aboriginal people
there?
--
***********************************************************************
Winterdreamer ez04...@ucdavis.edu
AHWW pack member
Klaatu Barata Nikto
Raphiel
Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
some dragons around here, and a manticore.. do we have any unicorns,
pegasi, minotaurs and so forth?
And how could such things come into being if they never existed? :)
Just wondering.
Raphiel
STriker RedWolf
Raphiel (rap...@it.com.au) wrote:
: Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
: Just wondering.
: Raphiel
Some would come under polymorphs... and I've been known to fancy a were-viersion of a centaur.
--
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Amber Struthers
How do you know they never exsisted???
Raukan
Schponfirkle!
Raphiel) howled:
>Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
>some dragons around here, and a manticore.. do we have any unicorns,
>pegasi, minotaurs and so forth?
Before AHWw, I had alt.mythology.mythic-animals in which to dream ...
my favourite mythic animal is a centaur. About ten years ago, I had
an intensely vivid dream of being a hunted centaur exile, despised for
having a grey hide instead of chestnut. I felt a change as I
"shifted" from human to centaur-form and it was remarkably
comfortable. The most memorable part of the dream was my running, as
a centaur, along a downward-sloping right-hand-curving dirt trail,
pursued by the others. I felt so hurt for being rejected but was the
only one able to change into a human.
A weird, yet fabulous, dream.
And that was well before I had discovered my wolf attributes.
>And how could such things come into being if they never existed? :)
Imagination, Raph. Just wonderful imagination.
--- Raukan.
*** New e-mail : rau...@pobox.com
*** New sig file ... er ... that's it.
Jeffrey Reynolds
Amber Struthers (pa...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: How do you know they never exsisted???
:
How do you know they DID exist???
You don't, there is no conrete scientific proof either way. That
doesn't mean we wouldn't like them to have and still existed. Personally
I like centaurs, and would like the idea that they are real, but until you
show me proof one did, or does exist...I have to be sceptical.
LH.
--
Logan Hawkwing | I hunt, for it is what I have always done. It is to
<je...@nacs.net> | take the weak so that the strong survive. To take
I, as always | the sick, that the race prospers in health. It is
speak for, myself | nature's way, the truth, can I ignore the truth.
--
Jacques Mc Donough
In <4tbv5l$9...@tracy.nacs.net> je...@nacs.net (Jeffrey Reynolds)
writes:
>Amber Struthers (pa...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>: How do you know they never exsisted???
>:
>
>How do you know they DID exist???
>
> You don't, there is no conrete scientific proof either way. That
>doesn't mean we wouldn't like them to have and still existed.
Personally
>I like centaurs, and would like the idea that they are real, but until
you
>show me proof one did, or does exist...I have to be sceptical.
I have to break in here. Skeptical? Is this any different than saying
I am a werewolf :)? Not really. I cannot scientifically prove that
the spirit of the wolf resides within my body. Keep that in mind. I
personally believe the "mythological" creatures did exist. Who is to
say that they simply do not reside on this plane of existence? Also,
most symbolize traits within ourselves so they do exist i.e. the
Phoenix. As long as we believe, they will endure. Myths do not have
to be false by the way. A myth is any story used to explain something.
Howls,
Heartsong
Tom Bubenik
In my opponin(opinion), they at least exist as spiritual creatures,
if no tin the physical world, too.
Peace,
Katie "Wakko" Bubenik
00000
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Wanderer
> ez04...@dale.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
<4t8c4s$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
(much snippage)
> A similar interesting question is how there are werewolves in Australia
> when the only canids were, I believe, brought by the aboriginal people
> there?
Not really true there, Wint ... while the canines we Eurobred weres know
didn't exist there yet, there were marsupial versions of the dingo around
back then.:)
I love weretrivia.:)
Yours three ways,
The info-laden,
Wanderer
wand...@why.net
wand...@whytel.com
Ron Orr
Raphiel said, in a message that has _already_ wandered into oblivion
from my server:
>
> >Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
> >some dragons around here, and a manticore.. do we have any unicorns,
> >pegasi, minotaurs and so forth?
>
Been mulling this over myself, being the manticore in
question...;)
Best thing that's come to me is that mythical creatures have a
strong _symbolic_ reality for humans. They crystalise some trait or
traits into one fabulous creature that they can instantly recognise and
understand.
Along the way I discovered an interesting book called
"Dictionary of Symbolic and Mythological Animals" by one J.C. Cooper;
along with descriptions he talks about 'symbolic' vs. 'real' animals,
and how our perception of the real ones has changed over the millenia.
It would appear that the two aspects often have little to do with one
another...which brings me to something.
Would any of the wolves (or other critters) here say that their
animal has the characteristics of a 'real' wolf or a 'symbolic' one? The
weres I know best seem to have aspects of both, which makes me curious
about just what they're really experiencing.
Not to denigrate the experience for anyone: not at all. I'm just
speculating on the idea that what we all share here is something more
than just the desire/ability to be able to take a different shape and
set of priorities once in a while...
Ron <griz...@vianet.on.ca>
--Support the creation of alt.lifestyle.furry!--
--We have nothing to lose but the flames!--
Wanderer
> ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
<4tle9k$a...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> Wanderer (wand...@why.net) wrote:
> : > ez04...@dale.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
> : <4t8c4s$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> : (much snippage)
> : > A similar interesting question is how there are werewolves in
Australia
> : > when the only canids were, I believe, brought by the aboriginal
people
> : > there?
>
> : Not really true there, Wint ... while the canines we Eurobred weres
know
> : didn't exist there yet, there were marsupial versions of the dingo
around
> : back then.:)
>
> Why doesn't my point still hold though: marsupials are not canines
although
> they evolved in response to parallel selective pressures?
>
By the taxonomy of the time, Wint, those were canines. According to the
references of the time, whatever marsupial influence there was was too
small to limit the breeding potential of the combined gene pools. Thus,
there were canines before the arrival of the Europeans.
Now for something I've been wondering ... what's your reference for Strine
werewolves?
Yours with a love of trivia,
The three-way,
Wanderer
wand...@why.net
wand...@whytel.com
Rorschach
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Wanderer wrote:
>
>
> > ez04...@dale.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
> <4t8c4s$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> (much snippage)
> > A similar interesting question is how there are werewolves in Australia
> > when the only canids were, I believe, brought by the aboriginal people
> > there?
Couldn't the weres have come in with the aboriginals? Either disguised
as people or dogs.
. . Rorschach
| \ / |
|/ """ \? A stark pattern of Black and White
//,\ /,\\ Within it you can find images, reflections. Maybe Balance.
\ |_| / I walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
`=' "NOW is the time to RAGE against the dying of the light!"
Simon Bennett
: : > ez04...@dale.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
: : <4t8c4s$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
: : (much snippage)
: : > A similar interesting question is how there are werewolves in Australia
: : > when the only canids were, I believe, brought by the aboriginal people
: : > there?
Because the white population of Australia comes from the same stock that
Americans do - Europe. Many Dreamtime stories are actually very
deeply-rooted in transformation, going from man to beast. The closest
thing that we had to a dingo pre-Aborigines was of course the thylacine -
remember Howling III, everyone? :) Thylacines of course are now
(reputedly) extinct.
Raphiel
Safari Denvarion Whitelion
Ron Orr (griz...@vianet.on.ca) wrote:
: Raphiel said, in a message that has _already_ wandered into oblivion
: from my server:
: >
: > >Weremythics = people who feel a connection to a mythical animal. We have
: > >some dragons around here, and a manticore.. do we have any unicorns,
: > >pegasi, minotaurs and so forth?
: >
: > >And how could such things come into being if they never existed? :)
now, to say never existed, you need to define existance. In this physical
world, it is highly unlikely that things like dragons, etc.... (way to
late in the night to think too much about all tho other mythical
creatures.) ever existed, although not impossible, but along the lines of
dreaming, I think that these creatures have made a very sizeable existance
for themselves. Isn't fantasy just using our own power of creation to make
something out of nothing? Is it any less of an existance?
I find my fantasy to be quite real, even spreading over into this world
(how do you think I have achieved shifting?) i think that we are all
imbued with the power of creation, and as we explore our fantasy, and make
new ones we create things just as real as you and me. I think we all have
an idea of what dragons look like. (I'm using dragons here, but it can
apply to all) I would go so far as to say that our collective knowledge
about the appearence of a dragon equals our knowledge of what dogs, or
cats look like. Does it require a physical body, or just a knowledge of
them to make them real?
What about dinosaurs? We know that they existed, but have any of us ever
seen them? Does it make them any less real, that we havn't seen them?
Could someone make a plastic skeleton of a dragon, and put it in a museum,
just like the dino's, and would that maker it real? (I'm getting real
tired here :)
We percieve the mythics as well as, and in some cases better than,
currently living creatures, I say that this perception makes them just as
real as the next creature, maybe just nonexistant. Did that make any
sense?
(rest clipped due to lack of sleep)
--
Safari Denvarion Whitelion
People are like a box of chocholates,
you need to stick your finger in the bottom of each one
to find the cherry cordial.
James Harrion III
Wanderer (wand...@why.net) wrote:
:
: > ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
: <4tle9k$a...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
: > Wanderer (wand...@why.net) wrote:
: > : > ez04...@dale.ucdavis.edu (James Harrion III) wrote in article
: > : <4t8c4s$6...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
: >
: although
: > they evolved in response to parallel selective pressures?
: >
: By the taxonomy of the time, Wint, those were canines. According to the
: references of the time, whatever marsupial influence there was was too
: small to limit the breeding potential of the combined gene pools. Thus,
: there were canines before the arrival of the Europeans.
1) Organisms are being reclassified at a constant rate, even though
classification now is a lot more internally consistent than it was then.
As a result, marsupials may have been classified as canines, but, in fact,
they are not.
2) Marsupials and canines cannot interbreed for very obvious reasons.
Marsupials have a pouch and a partially developed offspring which climbs
from the uterus to that pouch, and then completes development. Placental
mammals (normal canines, primates, felids) have further development of the
offspring in the uterus before being born.
:
: Now for something I've been wondering ... what's your reference for Strine
: werewolves?
What's a Strine werewolf?
--
***********************************************************************
Winterdreamer ez04...@ucdavis.edu
AHWW Helpstaffer
Coyote Osborne
In article <4tle9k$a...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez04...@boris.ucdavis.edu
(James Harrion III) wrote:
> Wanderer (wand...@why.net) wrote:
> : Not really true there, Wint ... while the canines we Eurobred weres know
> : didn't exist there yet, there were marsupial versions of the dingo around
> : back then.:)
>
> Why doesn't my point still hold though: marsupials are not canines although
> they evolved in response to parallel selective pressures?
I have to agree with WD here.
Marsupial critters diverged from canids long before there were canids or
modern marsupials. So there cannot be a marsupial version of a canid. They
are different critters that evolved from different lines. They're likely
as different as raccoons and chimpanzees.
Now the obvious answer (for me) to how there could be australian weres is
this... the human people there, and the animals they brought with them,
came from elsewhere.
Coyote
--
---
Coyote Osborne;1085 NE 179 Terrace;North Miami Beach, FL 33162
email: coy...@miami.mindspring.com
Coyote Osborne
For the record... as far as the mythics go...
There is more than one reality... at least to some of us.
I, like Windigo the Feral, feel that I have see this in the Dreaming realm.
I've seen all manner of critters. They have reality and meaning (to my
perception), even if they don't exist physically in this world right now.
Hell... I've even seen a couple odd things or two in this waking world.
Some of them wondrous...
Some of them, like the critter that occasionally drowned folks near where
I live... pretty grim.
And in any case, if someone feels a connection to a "mythic" creature... I
feel it's perfectly valid and meaningful. I think our spirits are more
"us" than our outward forms.
I think our spirits matter more.
And think on this... if the world continues the way it is going... there
will probably come a day when there are no more wolves. No more great
cats, nor moree lots of critters that some of us feel a connection to.
Do you think that the were-critter's with a relation to those creatures
will have any more or less valid a connection to their animal side, than
the other folks have with critters that don't walk the earth by virtue of
being "mythical"?
Just me rambling on late at night... sorry if I don;t make sense. : )
Jeffrey Reynolds
Jacques Mc Donough (di...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:
: I have to break in here. Skeptical? Is this any different than saying
: I am a werewolf :)? Not really. I cannot scientifically prove that
: the spirit of the wolf resides within my body. Keep that in mind. I
: personally believe the "mythological" creatures did exist. Who is to
: say that they simply do not reside on this plane of existence? Also,
: most symbolize traits within ourselves so they do exist i.e. the
: Phoenix. As long as we believe, they will endure. Myths do not have
: to be false by the way. A myth is any story used to explain something.
: Howls,
: Heartsong
Yes, skeptical. Is it different from saying I'm a werewolf,
well that might depend on how you define werewolf. In the classical PS
type, I'd say yes, and I'm still skeptical about that. If you say as a
MS type, I'd say it's possible but still, I'm skeptical.
As to the rest, I never claimed that they didn't. Just that I
was skeptical about it. Just as I was skeptical when a friend of mine
originally told me that I had the spirit of an old wolf. As a result of
that, I opened my mind some, and looked into Shamanism, and other
rather non-traditional ideals(for me). It led to some eye opening ideas.
Over the course of a year or so, I learned enough(tho' not nearly
as much as I should have) to understand the wolf spirit. To accept it as
-real- for me. Thus I had the -proof- I wanted, even tho' it wasn't
scientific. And I've continually redefined my view of spirits, but it's
still in a stage where it sees spirits as something that physically
existed. Maybe that will change as I learn more, maybe not.
To at least clear up my opinion. I should say I am skeptical
about the existance of "mythics" as a physical thing. "Spiritual
existence" from the belief of others, is another thing. If someone
believes something, then for them, atleast, it is true. If someone
believes they are a were-mythic, then I will accept that they are. It
does not mean I have to believe that mythics physically existed. I can
hope that they did/do, whether I believe it or not.
Moloko Plus
"the dreaming"??
am i wrong or are you incorporating a white-wolf term into an actual
religious world view.so they sell cards AND mass schizophrenia.
kent brockman-"its in revelations people!"
Franklin Laura F
Moloko Plus (c58...@maily.starnetinc.com) wrote:
: "the dreaming"??
: am i wrong or are you incorporating a white-wolf term into an actual
: religious world view.so they sell cards AND mass schizophrenia.
: kent brockman-"its in revelations people!"
Whitewolf took a religious experience and added it to their story. IT WAS
A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE FIRST! I read a book on the aborigional dreaming
of Australia for a class two years ago. if i ever end up in peterborough
(and you e-mail me reminding me and with your address - i am terrible with
addresses) Ill tell you it. It is a very long book though...so if you
enjoy fast paced mystery/horror/faqntasy/sf/ect over the more academic
stuff then this is definately not for you.
Purrs,
Whisper
Ben Goodridge
5l...@qlink.queensu.ca (Franklin Laura F) wrote:
>
> Moloko Plus (c58...@maily.starnetinc.com) wrote:
> : "the dreaming"??
> : am i wrong or are you incorporating a white-wolf term into an actual
> : religious world view.so they sell cards AND mass schizophrenia.
(Itty bitty snip)
>
> Whitewolf took a religious experience and added it to their story. IT WAS
> A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE FIRST! I read a book on the aborigional dreaming
> of Australia for a class two years ago. if i ever end up in peterborough
> (and you e-mail me reminding me and with your address - i am terrible with
> addresses) Ill tell you it. It is a very long book though...so if you
> enjoy fast paced mystery/horror/faqntasy/sf/ect over the more academic
> stuff then this is definately not for you.
>
> Purrs,
> Whisper
My literary alter-ego Akela is a dingo phenotype rather than a wolf,
and he's a native Australian, so for a few years I went around consuming
as much Aboriginal lore as I could. I'm STILL trying to figure some of
it out, but a lot of it has come in handy, not just from a storyteller's
perspective, but in the analysis and meaning of Dreams.
If I were to talk about a Dreaming, it's just that--a vision I have
when I'm sound asleep, sawing wood. As with many people, a lot of my
dreams have repeating themes in them--a certain bit of forest, a
"story" with a message, something to add focus to a confused life.
Couple days ago, I was going to bed at two to get up at six and knew
I wouldn't sink deep enough into sleep to have a dream before Imus
woke me loudly the next morning, but as I went to sleep I was suddenly
in the Sanctuary, dozing next to the Jewell Falls and sitting under a
tree, where I sat for at least a few minutes before the alarm kicked me
in the side of the face. The place exists and I might as well have
been there.
The Dreamtime of the Australians has a deep meaning for me. Like many
tribal cultures, the Aborigines were very connected to the natural
world around them, and their legends and stories of their Dreamtime
feature a lot of animal-men, like the legends of the Native Americans.
I can't begin to go into any of it now, partly because there isn't
the bandwidth, and partly because I'm afraid of sounding a hell of a
fool to those who might understand more.
However, I DO know how White Wolf has freely and openly bastardized other
deeply-held beliefs and ideals to its own purposes (does anyone
familiar with White Wolf REALLY know the story of Finn McCoule, warrior
chieftain of the Fianna; or the Fenris Wolf?) which is pretty much
merely another in a panoply of reasons why I can't stand the damned
things...
Ben Goodridge
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
Follower of the Clawed Albino
Thus spake Moloko Plus (c58...@maily.starnetinc.com) to the ether bunnies:
> "the dreaming"??
> am i wrong or are you incorporating a white-wolf term into an actual
> religious world view.so they sell cards AND mass schizophrenia.
Erm...
I was using the term LONG before White Woof started using it, and I
wouldn't exactly all what I believe a religion, either.
Also, I'd suggest doing a wee bit of research, especially on cultures
that have a distinctly different viewpoint of "reality" than Western
civilisation. (For one, I'd start with several Native American and
Australian Aboriginal cultures, who have similar beliefs in the validity
of Dreaming-experience.)
I don't slag off *your* experiences; don't slag off mine.
> kent brockman-"its in revelations people!"
With all due respect, fuck Revelations. I lived in fundie hell where
they lived in perpetual fear of the "Satanist Conspiracy" and how the
New Agers were taking over the UN and all.
About eleven years ago I realised, for me anyways, it was all a bunch of
bullshit. And I've never felt better.
What works for me may not work for thee. And vice versa. :)
--
-Windigo The Feral (NYAR!) |bleu|
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