Polyweres and Trends
Spyder Witiko
In article
<Pine.SGI.3.91.960709163...@overlord.dmv.com>, The
Bear <be...@overlord.dmv.com> wrote:
> Folks are welcome to public-argue with me. It's one of the nice things
> about being a solo animal... it's a lot harder to give a fuck when folks
> flame ya :>
Could also have something to do with being a follower of Bear... I know as
a witikowak I also feel not only more secure, but pretty much immune to
the flames. If they don't like it, just fuck `em...
> b.> Because I have an "ignore 'em" attitude when it comes to flames, if
> I start a discussion, and it becomes flames, I ignore the discussion...
> therefore, I'd never see the discussion "unflame", so it isn't worth my time.
Again, ditto. (Talk about a redundant statement. <grin>) While I usually
follow any threads I start, I tend to just start lumping `post 537:
Flaming DEMONHUNTER' in with the trash without even taking the time to
look at it...
> As I have posted in the past, I'm not a memeber of the "cyberpack" I
> can't be. It would be against my nature to be so. So, I'm not lumped
> into that "whole group."
I don't think that being a part of the CyberPack has anything to do with
being lupine. I tend to disagree with the lupines on a LOT of topics, but
I also understand that they're gonna bicker, they're gonna worry a great
deal about where they are on the supposedly non-existant heirarchy of the
group, but it's just a part of their nature, as lupines. Now, you ursines
tend toward seclusion, as do the witikowak and most of the felines, but
the term `CyberPack' isn't really as pack oriented as it sounds anymore,
but has just become an easy term for `one who reads AHWW.'
That's all I gotta say on the topic... tonight at least. <grin>
- Spyder Witiko, kokodhem-at-large
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Sinclair Andersen
The Bear wrote:
>
> In article <4rraov$p...@fox.ksu.ksu.edu> you wrote:
> : Trend: Polytherianthropes are coming out of the woodwork. Yes, I
sorry, but I rripped it.
>
> a.> From reading MOST of the discussions that take place on AHWW, folks
> would be more interested in knowing how I make snowballs rather than
> meditative technique or how I "get small". A great number of AHWWers are
> just like a great number of Goths... it is a "cool thing" not something
> that is them being true to themselves.
>
Only one small comment from over here, Bear.
I respect your point of view, but silly as they may appear, I think
there's actually a social value in this 'virtual snowball fighting'.
Personally, after the flaming and heated discussions (I am _not_ an
opponent of the latter), I felt this thread amusing, enjoyable and
refreshening my spirits and the bond to the pack (yes, I consider myself
a member of a pack).
I think a little snow can chill us off and maybe put a little perspective
to things.
Maybe it's a pack thing for some of us? Though we get verbal a lot here,
play has it's values, and play is not always dicetly linked with the
intellectual parts of your mind.
(Flame this? R U Sirius?)
Care & Take Care,
-=HOWLING=-
-=HEART=-
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
a.k.a.
Sinclair Andersen,
physically residing in Stockholm, Sweden
but you are always welcome to my
Cyber L@ir at http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf
or mail me: ed...@algonet.se
My WERECARD can be found at
http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf/werewolf/howl.htm
=+= My opponent knew me so well, =+=
=+= I had to make a move that surprised us both =+=
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
Reemul
: : myself to have two were-sides : Wolf and Raven. In AHWW of old, as well
: : as in folklore, two-weresides were rare and three or more practically
: I'm afraid to say, that in general, I think your first word, TREND, sums
: that one up. I'm going to go so far as to say that I think that they
: still are rare, and that one of several things are happening:
i agree. i know very few weres who have more than one wereside. i can
count them on one hand.
: a.> Folks are expressing their polywereness (is this a word?) because it
: is trendy, and percieved as cooler wereness than someone else's
: monowereness. From experience, it is tough enough having ONE wereside.
: Devoting enough time to the spiritual development of several, even if
: they spontaneously appear, would be draining to even the most dedicated
: of folks.
a trend, like a fad? hmm. possibly. it seems to be a very recent
phenomenon. within the last 6 months, and most strongly in the past 2
months or so. and i agree about having one side be a total drain on time
and resources.
: b.> Something is changing in the dynamics of the spiritual world that is
: altering the number
i dont think this is tha case. if that were so, then why do not the
current weres fell this multiplicity themselves?
: c.> Folks are mistaking feelings in themselves for being one thing when
: it is really another. I've always thought wolves were pretty keen, for
: example, and used to think that I might have been a werewolf. But once
: the realization that I was bear hit me, well, that was where I stuck, and
: that connection has grown stronger since. I still think wolves are
: pretty neat, but I would never think myself to be spiritually one. So,
: another possible explanation might be that folks still aren't certain
: within themselves.
true. or maybe they are thinking of these things in a different way than
some of us are. perhaps they are thinking of a totem, what i would
considerr a spiritguide/poweranimal? i know several who have one totem,
but several spirit/animal guides. but the distinction is made betwen them.
perhaps we are now seeing a breakdown in this distinction, with them
considering spirit guides as totems.
: : Trend: AHWW is MUCH bigger than it ever was before...with a constant
: : stream of delurkers.
: Sure is. I think that is a good thing. It means that more folks MIGHT
: add to the cause, and there might also be more public exposure. That's good.
: : Trend: People are more and more afraid to express their opinions, tell
: : their interesting dreams, or tell details of their were-side experiences
: Well, I tend to avoid discussing those aspects of my life for 2 reasons...
: a.> From reading MOST of the discussions that take place on AHWW, folks
: would be more interested in knowing how I make snowballs rather than
: meditative technique or how I "get small". A great number of AHWWers are
: just like a great number of Goths... it is a "cool thing" not something
: that is them being true to themselves.
the play time attitude is prevalent on both the ng and irc. most serious
discussion goes on in private, unfortunately. most, but not all.
: : inimacy or community that works.....every clique that doesn't operate in
: : total secrecy has numerous complaints lodged against it, such as being
: Guilty :> And I'll admit to being elitist. I tag anything I do with the
: same percentages as everyday life. A certain number of folks are not
: going to be receptive to your ideas, so why bother sharing them with
: those folks. Basic fact of life: You get along better with some than
: with others. If you choose to spend your time with the folks you enjoy
: spending it with, where's the problem?
cliques are going to form, even in a group as small as 3.
: : Trend: Where have the greymuzzles gone? Or even the "greymuzzles" who've
: : been here longer than 4 months?
: I'm still around, and I've been a lurker/poster since the very day the
: newsgroup was created. So, I'd say I'm pretty grey. :> I think the
: biggest reason why many "greymuzzles" don't post is because of what I'd
: like to refer to as "sitting on the porch" syndrome. I know I'd much
: rather read and think about what others have to say than express my own
: opinions. And if I do express my opinion, I'll sound like those two old
: guys on the Muppet Show, who piss and moan about how horrible this or
: that is, like a grumpy old man on the porch.
heh. good analogy. where have all the greymuzzles gone? lots are still
around, they are just silent. change is hard on those who are knee deep in
the status quo.
: : Conclusion: AHWW has grown large enough that it is no longer operating
: : like a circle of friends with many common ideas and goals, but has
: : "progressed" to the back-stabbing gossip-ridden social dynamics of a
: : small town.
: Well, yeah. But, that's the way of the world, I'm afraid. Sometimes
: it rules and sometimes it sucks. But, there isn't much that can be done
: to change it.
: Cheers,
: Gary
--Reemul
AloneWoof
Subject: Polyweres and Trends
From:
Date:
In Message-ID: Pine.SGI.3.91.960709163923. 6834A-100000-100000
@overlord.dmv.com> dated Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:41:02 -0400, the Rev. Gary
Coulbourne (The Bear <be...@overlord.dmv.com>) wrote:
>I'm afraid to say, that in general, I think your first word, TREND, sums
>that one up. I'm going to go so far as to say that I think that they
>still are rare, and that one of several things are happening:
>a.> Folks are expressing their polywereness (is this a word?) because it
>is trendy, and percieved as cooler wereness than someone else's
>monowereness. From experience, it is tough enough having ONE wereside.
>Devoting enough time to the spiritual development of several, even if
>they spontaneously appear, would be draining to even the most dedicated
>of folks.
Yeah. What he said. But we had the discussion on trendiness before and
decided that "Oh, no. This group is NOT trendy." <hides smile behind paw>
Yeah. What he said. Occassionally I will muse on my cat side, and I
feel I must have a cat somewhere in me, as I get this really strange urges
to jump up into trees. Plus I have a very nasty streak in me that is only
reflected by the nastiness of a cat "playing" with its prey. I can be
real mean. Trust me. :)
However, it is so faint, and so deeply buried, that I really don't spend
to much time on it, and sometimes I think I'm just a little bit crazy to
think that side of me exsists at all. Too much of my ->existance<- is
wrapped up in the wolf. If I wasn't wolf, I wouldn't be myself. I =
wolf and wolf = me. Cats don't fit into this equation...(except as fun
things to chase). So I don't worry about it. I am a werewolf, and that's
all I care to be.
>: Trend: Where have the greymuzzles gone? Or even the "greymuzzles"
who've
>: been here longer than 4 months?
>I'm still around, and I've been a lurker/poster since the very day the
>newsgroup was created. So, I'd say I'm pretty grey. :> I think the
>biggest reason why many "greymuzzles" don't post is because of what I'd
>like to refer to as "sitting on the porch" syndrome. I know I'd much
>rather read and think about what others have to say than express my own
>opinions. And if I do express my opinion, I'll sound like those two old
>guys on the Muppet Show, who piss and moan about how horrible this or
>that is, like a grumpy old man on the porch.
Well, by cracky....we old ones are still around (must I be old in cyber
life as well?) But I have notice that I need to devote at least an hour or
more a day (usually more like three) to the computer if I want to stay on
top of all my newsgroups. I don't always have this time. So I lope over
when I can, read what I can, and vanish off into the mists of real life
again. And yes, rather unfortunately, I DO have a life. It's not that I
don't care about this group, or about my friends on it, it just means that
sometimes I can't devote the time I'd like to it. (I guess I hope that
makes sense).
And, in Message-ID: <31E37C...@algonet.se> dated Wed, 10 Jul 1996
02:49:31 -0700, Sinclair Andersen <ed...@algonet.se> wrote:
>Only one small comment from over here, Bear.
>I respect your point of view, but silly as they may appear, I think
>there's actually a social value in this 'virtual snowball fighting'.
>Personally, after the flaming and heated discussions (I am _not_ an
>opponent of the latter), I felt this thread amusing, enjoyable and
>refreshening my spirits and the bond to the pack (yes, I consider myself
>a member of a pack).
>I think a little snow can chill us off and maybe put a little perspective
>to things.
Sure, there IS social value to it, just as there is to being furry or
chasing your tale, or any other sort of role playing. However, I think
that the idea in banning the role playing aspect from AHWW (and I'm not
talking about White Wolf here, I'm talking about being "furry" role
playing such as on furryMUCK) is to keep this group somewhat serious
(although we do have our sillier moments).
For example check out the Vampyre newsgroup (alt.horror vampyre I think it
is). What part of that discussion is a real discussion on the spiritual
part of being vamp, and what part of that discussion is role playing?
Where does reality stop and fantasy begin? The two mingle and mix. All
in all, I can't read the group for more than a day or two before becoming
tired and fleeing. The problem is...there isn't a newsgroup (that I know
of) for "furries" to go and play, and not every one has, or wants, access
to furryMUCK. So what does a poor frustrated furry do, except try to fit
into the spritual discussions here, and hope that the topics will take a
turn for the sillier. Maybe a group called alt.roleplaying.werewolves is
in order?
Just an idea.
Howling down the concrete canyons,
Alone Wolf
//the dream isn't coming through//
//i can't feel for you.....// --Heather Nova
CongRATulations Florida Panthers!
NHL's 1996 Eastern Conference Champions!
Unity
On 7/10/96 2:34PM, in message <4s10jl$4...@eagle.dmv.com>, The Bear
<be...@dmv.com> wrote:
<CHOMP>
> Seriously, though... why snowball fights and now tail-chasing or some
> other virtualness?
>
I suppose it's symbolic. I found out a lot about the group by finding out who
is willing to be immature once in a while (which is a good thing). It lets me
know that at least some people in AHWW don't take themselves TOO seriously to
enjoy the simple pleasures in life.
So, every once in a while, I'll engage in snowball fights, water gun fights,
pillow fights, or any other kinds of sillyness imagninable. Whether in real
life or on the Net.
--
_-------_______-----___/\_/\ Unity/HuggyWolf
/ / ___ \
| | \|q p|/
| \ |_____ | |_-\| |/
| |\ | ----| / \@/
| |/ / | | U "Werewolves use Fuzzy Logic"
| |\ \ | |
\/ \ \__ | |_
\___) \___) Email: Hugy...@ix.netcom.com
Ben Goodridge
Good grief, I hope not. The trouble with there being two sides to the
same coin is that the two sides have a tendency to forget that they ARE
on the same coin.
I don't know a howl of a lot about personal polywereism and I don't think
any of us are truly nailed exclusively to one animal. The first time I
saw a wolf up-close-and-personal I was shaking so hard I could hardly
breathe. The wolf is unquestionably and irrevocably a part of me now.
But the other day I saw a fox face to face in the Sanctuary and just
about had a heart murmur. It was about half an hour before I could even
move.
Visit a zoo sometime. I used to haunt the Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical,
and every animal there had something to say--from the elephants to the
big cats to the pandas to the free-range peacocks.
And why is "the Lion King" written on so many werecards?
I don't think this group is so much bustin' out in polyweres as more
people are starting to explore themselves through the eyes of other
animals than the ones they've "chosen." I still consider myself a
werewolf but I'm not going to ignore the possibility of walking the
lion's path every so often, or the bear's path, or even in the footsteps
of a fox.
Conflict is the price we pay for diversity, people.
I'd say, then, that we're getting a bargain.
You can say whatever the hell you want in this web and I'm getting a
little weary of people who take instant offense. Except to the
Demonhunter; it's better if you take an instant dislike to him 'cause
it saves time.
Peace. If you want.
Ben Goodridge
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
Excuse me, I have to floss.
Chris Johnson
In article <4s1j53$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, alon...@aol.com
(AloneWoof) wrote:
> Yeah. What he said. But we had the discussion on trendiness before and
> decided that "Oh, no. This group is NOT trendy." <hides smile behind paw>
> Yeah. What he said. Occassionally I will muse on my cat side, and I
> feel I must have a cat somewhere in me, as I get this really strange urges
> to jump up into trees. Plus I have a very nasty streak in me that is only
> reflected by the nastiness of a cat "playing" with its prey. I can be
> real mean. Trust me. :)
Heh. I'm going to be good about this and _avoid_ trying to 'play' with
you over that remark. Tsk- don't get too caught up in stereotypes. There
are strengths to felinity that may benefit you- please don't consider any
'cat' attributes or tendencies as some corrupt, dark underside of wereness
that is besetting you. Should you have felinity within you, it can give
you valuable detachment and perspective on many things, and that quiet
satisfaction (oh all right, arrogance) that cats easily fall into. ;)
> However, it is so faint, and so deeply buried, that I really don't spend
> to much time on it, and sometimes I think I'm just a little bit crazy to
> think that side of me exsists at all. Too much of my ->existance<- is
> wrapped up in the wolf. If I wasn't wolf, I wouldn't be myself. I =
> wolf and wolf = me. Cats don't fit into this equation...(except as fun
> things to chase). So I don't worry about it. I am a werewolf, and that's
> all I care to be.
*GRIN* this is why I am consciously avoiding 'playing' with your words.
Please understand that for some of us your chase-toys are beautiful,
miraculous creatures and an inspiration, just as Wolf is for you. I winced
just a touch at your remark :) naturally, it doesn't bug me _that_ much,
but I'd flip out and maybe lose some sleep if it turned out there were
werewolves tormenting cats for fun. I = cat and cat = me, and I identify
with them and feel very close to all cats. And so I might remark on a
lighthearted jest such as yours, because if I saw it really happening I'd
be _very_ upset. <end minor rant>
Now, about the roleplaying issue-
> Sure, there IS social value to it, just as there is to being furry or
> chasing your tale, or any other sort of role playing. However, I think
> that the idea in banning the role playing aspect from AHWW (and I'm not
> talking about White Wolf here, I'm talking about being "furry" role
> playing such as on furryMUCK) is to keep this group somewhat serious
> (although we do have our sillier moments).
Well, I read this newsgroup because it's _not_ all full of
roleplayingness. It doesn't mean that offends me, or that I am obsessed
with the deep implications and relevance of my wereness, such as it is, to
the general world (hah! how unfeline that would be ;) ) it simply means
that on a.h.w there is communication going on on a level that I've not
seen elsewhere.
> For example check out the Vampyre newsgroup (alt.horror vampyre I think it
> is). What part of that discussion is a real discussion on the spiritual
> part of being vamp, and what part of that discussion is role playing?
> Where does reality stop and fantasy begin? The two mingle and mix. All
> in all, I can't read the group for more than a day or two before becoming
> tired and fleeing. The problem is...there isn't a newsgroup (that I know
> of) for "furries" to go and play, and not every one has, or wants, access
> to furryMUCK. So what does a poor frustrated furry do, except try to fit
> into the spritual discussions here, and hope that the topics will take a
> turn for the sillier. Maybe a group called alt.roleplaying.werewolves is
> in order?
Yes there is. "alt.fan.furry". I read it now and again but sometimes it
drives me up the wall- currently the hot topic is 'how to save the
fur-fandom' which I really couldn't care less about as my furriness, such
as it is, is entirely personal in nature and was there well before I heard
of _any_ of these groups.
Also, alt.fan.furry is absolutely obsessed with artists and comics,
which greatly confuses and alienates me as I never see the point of all
the hype. I don't even _have_ a 'furry art' collection, and I'm a writer,
not a draw-er, and tend to feel like my art form is totally ignored by the
ravening furmongers with the exception of Elf Sternberg's Journal Entries,
which are just not my style and do nothing for me and sometimes really bug
me.
Ack, didn't mean to rant on alt.fan.furry- but anyway there _are_
places to go which are more suited to 'were-ness as a game'. I really find
I like this group better, as I don't seem to have much of a place in Fur
Fandom. Which does not cause me to lose any sleep ;)
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
Chris Johnson
In article <spyder-0907...@news.xmission.com>,
spy...@xmission.com (Spyder Witiko) wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.SGI.3.91.960709163...@overlord.dmv.com>, The
> Bear <be...@overlord.dmv.com> wrote:
> > Folks are welcome to public-argue with me. It's one of the nice things
> > about being a solo animal... it's a lot harder to give a fuck when folks
> > flame ya :>
> Could also have something to do with being a follower of Bear... I know as
> a witikowak I also feel not only more secure, but pretty much immune to
> the flames. If they don't like it, just fuck `em...
Ditto for this feline. I'm not sure 'secure' is the right word as it'd
be assigning 'insecure' to the wolves which is I think a misperception-
I'd chalk it up to different drives and value systems.
Wolves have a pecking order that arises from minor, low-level conflicts,
and there is nothing wrong with this. One eventually finds a position
within the pack, rarely at the top, rarely at the bottom. Felines, by the
way, also have a pecking order, it's just that they are generally more
wilful (picture a catfight at 3 AM- neither cat is very interested in
assuming a submissive position, neither will back down, often it ends with
haughty (and wary) stalking off while trying to appear nonchalant) and
their pecking orders tend to be deeply personal and not generalize to the
entire group. Interestingly, some birds have an even more rigorous social
structure, or pecking order (hehehe) gee, wonder how _that_ term got
started?
> I don't think that being a part of the CyberPack has anything to do with
> being lupine. I tend to disagree with the lupines on a LOT of topics, but
> I also understand that they're gonna bicker, they're gonna worry a great
> deal about where they are on the supposedly non-existant heirarchy of the
> group, but it's just a part of their nature, as lupines. Now, you ursines
> tend toward seclusion, as do the witikowak and most of the felines, but
> the term `CyberPack' isn't really as pack oriented as it sounds anymore,
> but has just become an easy term for `one who reads AHWW.'
Non-existent, hah ;)
Of course there is a heirarchy. It's just an evolved one, constantly in
flux, and the thing about wolves is that the alpha ones take on the
responsibility of protecting the weaker ones. They are social animals, and
their structure works. They will band together against attackers- they are
prone to bickering only when there is no common threat.
If I was up against the 'cyberpack' in a fighting situation, I'd be
gone in a flash of stripy fur. I'm no fool. However I'm not enemies with
the wolves :) so it's not an issue.
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
Franklin Laura F
I agree that the snowball fights are a great way of releasing the steam
of everyday life (Life I have a life? That's news! ;) It shows were are
not to serious, as you said, and also that we are not to weird. Ti lets
the newbies have a tread to join in where they cannot be flames for
repeating something that was said 4 mos 5 days and 6 hours ago! or, for
the matter, being told that it was discussed then....I'll tell you from
on slightly consious kitty, that it is a great turn off from discussing
other ideas....
anyway...i have got to play at being an Federal Employee again...
Purrs,
Whisper
fe...@uwyo.edu
Gooood!..................<SPAFF>
Yeah, I know bad wolf, Bad!
Howling Heart
The Bear wrote:
>
> Unity (Hugy...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : <be...@dmv.com> wrote:
>
> : <CHOMP>
>
> : > Seriously, though... why snowball fights and now tail-chasing or some
> : > other virtualness?
>
> to why it was always snowball fights and not meatball fights or something
> else.
>
> And I agree... silliness is one of the big parts o' life.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary
>
> --
> ********* ***** ** Rev. Gary Coulbourne
> *************************.* ULC Minister, Bear Activist
> ****** *********** ** *******o
> ******* ********* **** ****`-
> ******* ********* *****
> ****** ********** **** be...@dmv.com
> ## ***** ***** ## ****
> ### ***** ### **** http://www.dmv.com/~bear
> #,,, ***,,, ##,,, **,,,
Actually, here in Sweden "Snow War" or "Snow Balls War" is actually almost a concept, an idiomatic expression,
regardless of season.
(You can use it for politicians for instance, having a loud-noised mock fight where nobody really gets hurt. Or
like the more positive way, like "yeah, let's steam off!")
But I guess it's poosible that a Floridian were for instance, might have a wee harder time to relate to it,
especially in this season.
You wrote in an earlier post about the amount of messages:
> Ordinarily, I would agree 100%, and I do in that there is social value.
> I was reacting from the gut on that, though, because there was a time
> when we were getting 200+ messages a day of JUST snowball onomotopia.
I agree fully with you there.
In some NGs I follow, the posting can be really heavy sometimes, and I never had the time to follow each
thread. So some I just check out the first ones and then I sometimes just mark them as read.
I compare it to a party or any other social get-together. I can't participate or follow every conversation goin
on, so you chose... or just end up in some...
I don't know if this is a good comparison, but..
Sorry if I'm rambling but I have this cold, and my head feels like stuffed with cotton.
BTW, I'd enjoy a tail-chase next time instead.
You wouldn't give us one of those hugs your kind is so famous for, I hope though? :>
Elf Sternberg
In article <jinx6568-110...@pm1a14.bratt.sover.net>
jinx...@sover.net (Chris Johnson) writes:
> Also, alt.fan.furry is absolutely obsessed with artists and comics,
>which greatly confuses and alienates me as I never see the point of all
>the hype. I don't even _have_ a 'furry art' collection, and I'm a writer,
>not a draw-er, and tend to feel like my art form is totally ignored by the
>ravening furmongers with the exception of Elf Sternberg's Journal Entries,
>which are just not my style and do nothing for me and sometimes really bug
>me.
An interesting comment, indicating that you've read more than
one of them. I wonder if I should apologize for not being that
appealing. What bugs you about them anyway? (Just curious, and always
looking for a new group of people to appeal to).
Elf !!!
Elf Sternberg I'm not inclined to write pompous
e...@halcyon.com books about unanswerable questions.
Public key available That strikes me as a tremendous waste
http://www.halcyon.com/elf of time.
- Stephen Jay Gould
Chris Johnson
In article <4s65uq$k...@news1.halcyon.com>, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
wrote:
> >which greatly confuses and alienates me as I never see the point of all
> >the hype. I don't even _have_ a 'furry art' collection, and I'm a writer,
> >not a draw-er, and tend to feel like my art form is totally ignored by the
> >ravening furmongers with the exception of Elf Sternberg's Journal Entries,
> >which are just not my style and do nothing for me and sometimes really bug
> >me.
> one of them. I wonder if I should apologize for not being that
> appealing. What bugs you about them anyway? (Just curious, and always
> looking for a new group of people to appeal to).
> Elf !!!
*grin* eh, it's nothing major. Why, I even emailed you recently because
I was interested in your take on the adult level of published SF/fantasy
these days. You certainly have no reason to apologize for _my_
prudishnesses ;)
As far as reading more than one, Elf, ya gotta understand your fans are
major fans ;) I have often had furries insisting that I check out this JE
or that JE. Particularly as I learned about BDSM and tried to understand
it, I would be referred to a Journal Entry. It seems you write the bible
on furry sexuality ;) I beg your pardon if you are offended at the
comparison! *hehehe*
I tend to feel alienated from the lifestyle your characters lead- my
characters are in some ways much tamer though as I have learned I find
characters appearing who do _not_ share my prudish moralities and demand
to be taken on their own terms.
Really the only thing that has traditionally 'bugged' me (sometimes I
have been rather upset about this, more often I just let it slide) is some
aspects of your BDSM. I can think of only one time when I was deeply
upset- it was on reading a Journal Entry ('Rage', was it?) in which one
character talked another character into beating him up, and afterwards
they discussed how important it was to do it (it seemed as if no other way
of resolving tensions was taken seriously). *think* I guess I have just
balked and sometimes overreacted to the subtext, the implicit assumptions.
(I've been told your characters are not simply mouthpieces for your views
and have more volition than that, which I can well believe as mine are
similarly wilful.)
I guess at bottom it is the role of BDSM in your writing that disturbs
me in a way no amount of homosexuality, bestiality, what-have-you could. I
have taken the initiative in trying to learn more about it, to avoid being
close-minded. For instance, I was recently on Furrymuck (as my femme cat
self ;) ) listening to an explanation of flogging- which was quite
surprising, I'd never heard of 'thudding' floggers or imagined that it
could be used as a bizarre sort of massage. I do feel that I try to be
fair about what I don't understand :)
I just find BDSM troubling. Interestingly, I have more trouble with the
psychological aspects of it than physical BDSM. Sometimes this has really
gotten under my skin (oh all right, fur ;) ) and sometimes I'm able to
condone it more easily. I worry that there are people who turn to BDSM and
ignore other, perhaps more difficult, ways of dealing with the world- and
am troubled when I see furs practically half my age leading lives like
those you write about. I guess I'm getting used to these things, but it
can still be jarring, a peculiar combination of enviousness for their
flagrant sexuality and concern about the traps they set for themselves.
Anyway, I could go on, but that's about it. Do please remember that my
frame of reference for imaginative fiction is SF of the 50s and 60s?
*grin* look at Heinlein- very ready to handle adult themes, but there is a
deep subcurrent of typical social assumptions in his work, and often his
lead character is the touchpoint to the societal norms... when he does
take on a alternate lifestyle, there is a powerful theme of Family and
Stability and all, quite 50s in its way.
If you are really looking for a new group of people to appeal to- talk
to some prudes! Talk to some boring, dull, repressed people and try and
understand the way they view the world, such as I've done with BDSM
people. I really haven't read enough of your work to know whether you have
characters who are monagamous, non-experimental, 'missionary position'
types- the key thing to look for there is this. Do they tend to make the
reader feel "Isn't that kind of sad, the poor things?" If so, this will be
a slap in the face to readers of that type (and there are a lot of us ;) )
I am struggling with my BDSM-swinger-free-love characters. In my SF
novel there are two so far and the implication of others with them. I am
introducing them through the eyes of characters who don't agree with their
views- but then I bring out other sides to them, use them for other
purposes- a real 'yiffy fox' character (who happens to be rather callous
to his main lover) is currently in the process of training my lead
character in submarine control operation, and is formidably competent (a
gifted pilot) and impressively professional... and also he tried to pick
up my lead character, was rebuffed, and took it exceedingly well, showing
himself to be far from a 'lust crazed stalker' type.
I don't want _my_ BDSM-etc characters to be a slap in the face to
anybody, and the only way to prevent this is to try and understand the
real people out there and be aware of my tendency to disapprove of it,
which is the result of my upbringing and assumptions.
So *grin* if you're interested in appealing to prudes (some are great
people) then examine your own assumptions, talk to some of them (I'm
willing, I'm sure there are others) and devote some effort to learning
what _their_ assumptions are, where they come from, what value they can
have. It's easy to write a character with a recognizable surface
appearance- but without an effort to see their viewpoint they are
cardboard- and it's hard to _read_ a character with a radically different
mindset without seeing that character as 'cardboard' simply because you
don't connect with them, their drives, their needs.
I read a story on the Transformation Archive (Island of Circe, was it?)
that really got inside the head of a dedicated sub, and it was revalatory.
It is very possible to communicate beyond the constraints of a set of
assumptions- but it takes more space and a conscious effort to
communicate, whereas sticking to the familiar ground loses nothing for
kindred spirits and is more focused, but there is a very real possibility
of losing audience on a broader scale :)
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
AutumnLeaf
On 10 Jul 1996, Reemul wrote:
> The Bear (be...@overlord.dmv.com) wrote:
> : In article <4rraov$p...@fox.ksu.ksu.edu> you wrote:
> : : Trend: Polytherianthropes are coming out of the woodwork. Yes, I beleive
> : : myself to have two were-sides : Wolf and Raven. In AHWW of old, as well
> : : as in folklore, two-weresides were rare and three or more practically
>
> : I'm afraid to say, that in general, I think your first word, TREND, sums
> : that one up. I'm going to go so far as to say that I think that they
> : still are rare, and that one of several things are happening:
>
> i agree. i know very few weres who have more than one wereside. i can
> count them on one hand.
Hmm.. As I've said before, I cannot speak for other polyweres. All I know
is that I am a polywere. I admit that I was wrong in my understanding of
what a phenotype was, but I have recently done a lot of searching inside,
and have finally learned the difference between major phenotypes, minor
phenotypes, and totems. Sorry about the confusion.
I am curious, Reemul, how you know who's a polywere and who isn't? Please
note that no insult is intended. I have avoiding flaming this long, and
have no intention to start. I'm just curious how you can know for sure.
> : a.> Folks are expressing their polywereness (is this a word?) because it
> : is trendy, and percieved as cooler wereness than someone else's
> : monowereness. From experience, it is tough enough having ONE wereside.
> : Devoting enough time to the spiritual development of several, even if
> : they spontaneously appear, would be draining to even the most dedicated
> : of folks.
>
> a trend, like a fad? hmm. possibly. it seems to be a very recent
> phenomenon. within the last 6 months, and most strongly in the past 2
> months or so. and i agree about having one side be a total drain on time
> and resources.
Hmm. An interesting thought. It is possible that some polyweres are
coloring their wereness in this way. After all, if one already has more
than one phenotype, I would think it would be much easier to simply add
another, even if the connection isn't really that strong. Again, of
course, I cannot speak for other polyweres. I hope they too will open up
and openly share their understanding of themselves, instead of just
saying they have this phenotype and this phenotype. In my last few posts,
I have tried to explain what I have learned about myself, and hopefully,
have dispelled some of the confusion concerning myself.
Concerning how having many phenotypes would cause a terrible energy
drain. I can vouch for this. I am a constant thinker, and never have much
in the way of physical energy. It is a very powerful drain on the system,
however, I suspect that it is not as bad as you might think. I propose
the idea that polyweres have similar numbers of shifts as do monoweres.
This number is probably divided up among the polywere's aspects. I'm
curious if you and others would be willing to share how often you experience
shifts, so that I might ascertain if this is a working hypothesis or not.
For myself, I generally experience about 3 shifts per month.
> : b.> Something is changing in the dynamics of the spiritual world that is
> : altering the number
>
> i dont think this is tha case. if that were so, then why do not the
> current weres fell this multiplicity themselves?
This concept of a dynamic change in the spiritual world is interesting,
but unfortunately, cannot be proven. I have had such visions, as have
another were I've been in contact with, now via snail mail. But once
again, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove such a thing
to be true.
As far as why monoweres are not fell to this 'multiplicity', I truly
cannot say. I do know that some weres have experienced this rather recently,
but it still has been rather rare. I'm curious if others could possibly
shed some light on this.
> : c.> Folks are mistaking feelings in themselves for being one thing when
> : it is really another. I've always thought wolves were pretty keen, for
> : example, and used to think that I might have been a werewolf. But once
> : the realization that I was bear hit me, well, that was where I stuck, and
> : that connection has grown stronger since. I still think wolves are
> : pretty neat, but I would never think myself to be spiritually one. So,
> : another possible explanation might be that folks still aren't certain
> : within themselves.
>
> true. or maybe they are thinking of these things in a different way than
> some of us are. perhaps they are thinking of a totem, what i would
> considerr a spiritguide/poweranimal? i know several who have one totem,
> but several spirit/animal guides. but the distinction is made betwen them.
> perhaps we are now seeing a breakdown in this distinction, with them
> considering spirit guides as totems.
I'd have to agree with you that some polyweres are mistaking totems for
phenotypes. As I've stated in some of my other recent posts, I admit that
I was one of them. I now understand the difference, and have found that I
have made numerous mistakes. I hope other polyweres will also look deep
within themselves so that they can discover the truth about themselves, as
I have done.
As far as spirit guides/power animals vs. totems is concerned, I've never
known a difference between them. But if I had to make a distinction, I would
venture to say that a spirit guide/power animal is an external entity
which comes to guide a person, while a totem is a metaphorical
representation of a person's aspects, and so, is actually part of that
person. Most people do not make this distinction, and sometimes these
ideas overlap. I would venture to say that many polyweres, if not most,
do not have much knowledge concerning totems and spirit guides/power
animals and so have no knowledge base from which to judge the difference
between them and phenotypes. (Please forgive me if I am wrong.) Sheesh! I
know alot about totems, and even I was confused for awhile! Again, I
encourage other polyweres to look within and do the work that needs to be
done, as I have. Any questions? Feel free to email me! :)
> : : Trend: AHWW is MUCH bigger than it ever was before...with a constant
> : : stream of delurkers.
> : Sure is. I think that is a good thing. It means that more folks MIGHT
> : add to the cause, and there might also be more public exposure. That's good.
> : : Trend: People are more and more afraid to express their opinions, tell
> : : their interesting dreams, or tell details of their were-side experiences
>
> : Well, I tend to avoid discussing those aspects of my life for 2 reasons...
>
> : a.> From reading MOST of the discussions that take place on AHWW, folks
> : would be more interested in knowing how I make snowballs rather than
> : meditative technique or how I "get small". A great number of AHWWers are
> : just like a great number of Goths... it is a "cool thing" not something
> : that is them being true to themselves.
>
> the play time attitude is prevalent on both the ng and irc. most serious
> discussion goes on in private, unfortunately. most, but not all.
I have to agree here. There is an awful lot of play, and there needs to
be more serious discussion. Not that play is all wrong. After all, of all
adult animals, it is only adult humans who have forgotten how to play,
IMO. So I think play is important as people learn to work with and
understand their were aspects. But I still agree that more serious
discussion is necessary.
> : : inimacy or community that works.....every clique that doesn't operate in
> : : total secrecy has numerous complaints lodged against it, such as being
>
> : Guilty :> And I'll admit to being elitist. I tag anything I do with the
> : same percentages as everyday life. A certain number of folks are not
> : going to be receptive to your ideas, so why bother sharing them with
> : those folks. Basic fact of life: You get along better with some than
> : with others. If you choose to spend your time with the folks you enjoy
> : spending it with, where's the problem?
>
> cliques are going to form, even in a group as small as 3.
I agree that alot of the atmosphere on AHWW of late has detered most
individuals from presenting their own understandings. Why can't we just
stop flaming or taking sides, and instead, just talk about those issues
that are important to us, so that we all might understand eachother better?
> : : Trend: Where have the greymuzzles gone? Or even the "greymuzzles" who've
> : : been here longer than 4 months?
>
> : I'm still around, and I've been a lurker/poster since the very day the
> : newsgroup was created. So, I'd say I'm pretty grey. :> I think the
> : biggest reason why many "greymuzzles" don't post is because of what I'd
> : like to refer to as "sitting on the porch" syndrome. I know I'd much
> : rather read and think about what others have to say than express my own
> : opinions. And if I do express my opinion, I'll sound like those two old
> : guys on the Muppet Show, who piss and moan about how horrible this or
> : that is, like a grumpy old man on the porch.
>
> heh. good analogy. where have all the greymuzzles gone? lots are still
> around, they are just silent. change is hard on those who are knee deep in
> the status quo.
I agree. Sometimes, though, I wish they'd step in to stop these flames,
etc. I realize, though, that there's really very little they can do about
it. They've seen the place they loved for so long get shot to hell, so why
shouldn't they be upset?
> : : Conclusion: AHWW has grown large enough that it is no longer operating
> : : like a circle of friends with many common ideas and goals, but has
> : : "progressed" to the back-stabbing gossip-ridden social dynamics of a
> : : small town.
>
> : Well, yeah. But, that's the way of the world, I'm afraid. Sometimes
> : it rules and sometimes it sucks. But, there isn't much that can be done
> : to change it.
Unfornately, you are right. I just hope more people will learn to be more
willing to talk and try to understand one another. To me, AHWW is my
family, a place I can go where others will understand me. But as things
have progressed, even in the last few months, I feel less and less
hopeful, and less and less welcome here. Please people, don't you see what
you are doing to eachother? Let's try to talk to oneanother, so that we
can learn to understand, so that we call learn and grow.
> : Cheers,
> : Gary
>
> --Reemul
The ever-evolving,
AutumnLeaf
Ben Goodridge
be...@dmv.com (The Bear) wrote:
>
> Unity (Hugy...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : <be...@dmv.com> wrote:
>
> That was supposed to read "not tail-chasing." Typo :> I was curious as
> to why it was always snowball fights and not meatball fights or something
> else.
Meatball fights? Did you say MEATBALL FIGHTS? Good lord, my father
just invented a cannon that could deliver a two-pound potato payload
on a target fifty yards away. He MacGyvered it up out of PVC pipe and
cheap hairspray. Can you imagine what would happen if someone slid
about five kilos of prime ground chuck into the muzzle of that thing?
Either duck or lie flat in the grass with your mouth open. It's a
Hamburger Howitzer.
"Wow, Dad, that one cleared the house!"
It's one thing to throw snow at each other, it's another thing to
create a device capable of bringing down a ValuJet.
Ben Goodridge
Writing on behalf of Mark Goodridge, the undisputed king of immature
silliness at the age of fifty.
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
"A thirty percent chance of bacon today, with some scattered ham over
portions of Lincoln and Kennebec Counties..."
Crystal
> I have a very nasty streak in me that is only
> reflected by the nastiness of a cat "playing" with its prey. I can be
> real mean. Trust me. :)
A cat playing with its prey is not being mean or nasty. Those
characteristics are imposed upon it by humans looking at the act with
their human emotions and human values. All the cat sees and hears is
something that moves fast and makes exciting high-pitched squeaking
noises. Bright colors or flying stringy-things that are fun to pounce.
Give a cat an inanimate object that moves similarly and sounds similar and
it is just as delighted. If it smells good, that's a bonus. The cat
doesn't torture its prey because it likes to impose suffering on the mouse
or bird or what have you--that cat has no concept of the feelings of
another creature. If you are cruel, nasty or mean, it is not the were
side in you.
Crystal, feeling protective of minx
Crystal
> a.> Folks are expressing their polywereness (is this a word?) because it
> is trendy, and percieved as cooler wereness than someone else's
> monowereness. From experience, it is tough enough having ONE wereside.
> Devoting enough time to the spiritual development of several, even if
> they spontaneously appear, would be draining to even the most dedicated
> of folks.
I don't know if you would consider me a polywere or not, Bear. The
vampire has been with me for a very long time and the cat (I *still*
cannot quite identify her species and it's driving me crazy) is a relative
newcomer to my consciousness. But they are both very real to me. At any
given time I can feel them both living their separate lives within me --
minx mostly goes about her own activities and ignores me and if I want her
I have to seek her out intentionally, while the vampire either sulks in a
dark corner somewhere or pesters me with his neurosis. He hasn't
disappeared with the arrival of the cat and I have been accused more than
once of lying about being were at all. This doesn't particularly faze me
as no one knows what is inside me but me, and if anyone doesn't believe me
I don't really care because I don't like to show either of them to others
in general anyway because they are *very* personal to me.
> c.> Folks are mistaking feelings in themselves for being one thing when
> it is really another.
I dunno what they are, they just are.
> a.> From reading MOST of the discussions that take place on AHWW, folks
> would be more interested in knowing how I make snowballs rather than
> meditative technique or how I "get small".
I'd very much like to hear about your meditative technique and how you
"get small."
Crystal (ack, being kicked from machine to machine)
Crystal
In article <N.071096....@nor-la6-01.ix.netcom.com>,
Hugy...@ix.netcom.com (Unity) wrote:
> I suppose it's symbolic. I found out a lot about the group by finding out who
> is willing to be immature once in a while (which is a good thing). It lets me
> know that at least some people in AHWW don't take themselves TOO seriously to
> enjoy the simple pleasures in life.
I don't like to see a lot od space here wasted on fluff like that horrid
snowball fight from back-when. However, that doesn't mean i can't have
fun. It's just a matter of choosing your place. Actually, I tend to
annoy people by wanting to play with them way more than they want to play
with me. If I'm sitting on the lawn with someone, sooner or later I'm
going to start throwing grass at them. It's just who I am. Ususally they
get annoyed at me and i get annoyed at them for getting annoyed at me.
Why can't they just throw some grass back and laugh a little? Cripes.
Or food fights. Or pillow fights. Or water fights. Or plain old
wrestling around. It's definitely my feline side, and even if she wasn't
fully formed and named when I was a kid, that part of me has always been
around. Mostly I find others' lack of playfulness frustrating and
disappointing. I often take their unwillingness to play with me as a
personal rejection.
One of my favorite memories of my whole affair with KatmanDu (argh) is the
time I chased him around my apartment at 2am with a bottle of chocolate
syrup, totally non-sexually, both of us laughing so loud we woke up the
neighbors.
Crystal
AloneWoof
In article <jinx6568-110...@pm1a14.bratt.sover.net>,
jinx...@sover.net (Chris Johnson) writes:
> Heh. I'm going to be good about this and _avoid_ trying to 'play' with
>you over that remark. Tsk- don't get too caught up in stereotypes. There
>are strengths to felinity that may benefit you- please don't consider any
>'cat' attributes or tendencies as some corrupt, dark underside of
wereness
>that is besetting you. Should you have felinity within you, it can give
>you valuable detachment and perspective on many things, and that quiet
>satisfaction (oh all right, arrogance) that cats easily fall into. ;)
No, it's not a question of stereotypes. I know that wolves CAN be mean
and DO have a mean streak...in my case, it's a question of Catty meanness.
A good example...I was working for the local rock station down here in
the Keys. The station was being sold, things were going downhill, and our
station manager, who had landed another job at an AM signal up the Keys
asked to be released from his obligations at the Ozone so that he could
get on with his life. Timm Enterprises agreed, and sent down a rather
pleasant older gentleman who had absolutely no idea what was going on to
oversee us. Saturday, I got a call from Adam to inform me that Chris was
mysteriously missing, that they couldn't get hold of the program director,
and he'd been there for seven hours already, and could I make it in. OK.
OK. Just cause I'd worked a double on Friday...hey. So I went in. Adam
had put the playback on auto...which is only good for about an hour and
booked before I got there. This poor old guy was there tending the
machinery. I relieved him, and we talked, and he was like "Yes, I can
push the buttons...we just never put my voice on the air." OOPS!
Something clicked. Suddenly... it was time for a break and "I'm here with
our New Station Manager..." and just gave him the most wonderful on air
grilling as to why we ->never<- put his voice on the air. Oh no.
<snicker> It was too much fun!
THAT is the catty part of me.
There was no reason to mean to this perfectly nice old man. Except that
my instincts told me he was prey and I needed to get my claws in.
Somewhere. Given an opportunity and a half a chance, I'll bust you down.
> *GRIN* this is why I am consciously avoiding 'playing' with your
words.
>Please understand that for some of us your chase-toys are beautiful,
>miraculous creatures and an inspiration, just as Wolf is for you. I
winced
>just a touch at your remark :) naturally, it doesn't bug me _that_ much,
>but I'd flip out and maybe lose some sleep if it turned out there were
>werewolves tormenting cats for fun. I = cat and cat = me, and I identify
>with them and feel very close to all cats. And so I might remark on a
>lighthearted jest such as yours, because if I saw it really happening I'd
>be _very_ upset. <end minor rant>
No, don't get me wrong. I like cats. Really I do (Saul! Stand up for
me!) I have several house cats and look after another half a dozen or so
neighborhood strays and have "adopted" the Clouded Leopard at the Miami
Zoo and send him money and support the Save the Panther fund....
Well, yeah. I like cats. I don't necessarily like the cat in me. When
it does come roaring out it's a black nasty thing that wants
everything...."Mine. Mine. Mine." and I am not at all like that. It's all
slanty green eyes and sharp fangs and disposition looking for a
confrontation. Possibly because it gets out so rarely that when it does
escape it's that much more forceful. But because I don't like it, I'd
rather keep it banished back to the darker past where it does belong.
Wolf is enough demon for me to wrestle with at one time.
> Now, about the roleplaying issue-
>
>> Sure, there IS social value to it, just as there is to being furry or
>> chasing your tale, or any other sort of role playing. However, I think
>> that the idea in banning the role playing aspect from AHWW (and I'm not
>> talking about White Wolf here, I'm talking about being "furry" role
>> playing such as on furryMUCK) is to keep this group somewhat serious
>> (although we do have our sillier moments).
>
> Well, I read this newsgroup because it's _not_ all full of
>roleplayingness. It doesn't mean that offends me, or that I am obsessed
>with the deep implications and relevance of my wereness, such as it is,
to
>the general world (hah! how unfeline that would be ;) ) it simply means
>that on a.h.w there is communication going on on a level that I've not
>seen elsewhere.
Yes. Exactly. It's not role playing. It's a discussion. (Note guys:
It's a ->discussion<-. NOT an arguement. NOT a fight. NOT a flamewar.
Some people get too personal about things. Sheesh!) It's a place where
we can get together, and discuss, with people who have somewhat mutual
feelings, about our spirituality and our place in the world...and maybe
who we all are or what this all means.
> Yes there is. "alt.fan.furry". I read it now and again but sometimes
it
>drives me up the wall- currently the hot topic is 'how to save the
>fur-fandom' which I really couldn't care less about as my furriness, such
>as it is, is entirely personal in nature and was there well before I
heard
>of _any_ of these groups.
> Also, alt.fan.furry is absolutely obsessed with artists and comics,
>which greatly confuses and alienates me as I never see the point of all
>the hype. I don't even _have_ a 'furry art' collection, and I'm a writer,
>not a draw-er, and tend to feel like my art form is totally ignored by
the
>ravening furmongers with the exception of Elf Sternberg's Journal
Entries,
>which are just not my style and do nothing for me and sometimes really
bug
>me.
> Ack, didn't mean to rant on alt.fan.furry- but anyway there _are_
>places to go which are more suited to 'were-ness as a game'. I really
find
>I like this group better, as I don't seem to have much of a place in Fur
>Fandom. Which does not cause me to lose any sleep ;)
Alt.fan.furry is a support newsgroup for furryMUCK. It is not a furry
role playing newsgroup. (Sorry to disappoint you on that one). It serves
the purpose it's supposed to serve. There are people interested in furry
writers...and I should point out that if you can write scripts, getting
together with a furry artist could prove benificial to both of you from a
comic standpoint. Furry comics are real popular with that gang... and not
all artist care to write, or can write. But as I said, it is not a furry
(or otherwise) role playing group. A lot of disillusioned weres head off
for furryMUCK because in the end they get more of a social feeling
there...after all...it's role ->PLAYING<- and if a fight does break out
it's only your character that's involved, not you directly. So it's not
like the world is going to stop spinning because someone on AHWW doesn't
like you. I mean that's a MUCH more SERIOUS thing. Isn't it?
Hey there are lots of people that don't like me. There are probably lots
of people here that don't like me. If I don't post for a while (either
because I'm too busy or because I've taken cover while you all work out
your differences, well, it's not like anyone really misses me. The point
maybe I'm trying to make is many of the readers here need to stop taking
everything on AHWW so seriously and lighten up a bit. Discuss things.
But in the end, be true to yourself, not what someone else wants you to
be. If that you are happens to be the trend...oh well...go with it. If
not, don't change yourself to fit in. The roleplaying does lighten things
up and too a certain ->limited<- extent does have some relavence here, but
I don't want to see the group devolve into another all out snowball fight
again. It really isn't that interesting to read.
On a personal note...Oh, Mr. Writer, may I suggest you browse around
alt.fan.dragon (or was it alt.dragon? I forget.) There's a lot of
activity, so just pick a couple of threads to follow at first. But it's
shared writing. And you don't HAVE to be a dragon to get involved. Only
like them.
:)
And since you're a storyteller...<sits down patiently to wait for a
story>.
> Jinx_tigr
> (aka Chris Johnson)
>
>
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>From: jinx...@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
>Newsgroups: alt.horror.werewolves
>Subject: Re: Polyweres and Trends
>Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:02:14 GMT
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Chris Johnson
In article <4sbb17$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, alon...@aol.com
(AloneWoof) wrote:
> Well, yeah. I like cats. I don't necessarily like the cat in me. When
> it does come roaring out it's a black nasty thing that wants
> everything...."Mine. Mine. Mine." and I am not at all like that. It's all
> slanty green eyes and sharp fangs and disposition looking for a
> confrontation. Possibly because it gets out so rarely that when it does
> escape it's that much more forceful. But because I don't like it, I'd
> rather keep it banished back to the darker past where it does belong.
> Wolf is enough demon for me to wrestle with at one time.
I still don't see that as truly Cat... more like just untamed animal
nature in general, in particular _repressed_ animal nature, denied outlets
and kept locked up.
Honestly, I feel that considering were-ness 'demons to wrestle' is an
unfortunate way of looking at it. My personal view is were-ness as
personal metaphor- which helps to explain why I find it very easy to cope
with. (Of course, I'm in love with cats and so identifying with them is
_hardly_ a worrisome thing for me :) )
> On a personal note...Oh, Mr. Writer, may I suggest you browse around
> alt.fan.dragon (or was it alt.dragon? I forget.) There's a lot of
> activity, so just pick a couple of threads to follow at first. But it's
> shared writing. And you don't HAVE to be a dragon to get involved. Only
> like them.
I think it's alt.fan.dragons-inn :) it sounds cool. Do please try to
understand, though, that though I will write on commission my feline
stubbornness is quite present in what I write, and it's difficult for me
to imagine team writing. The idea doesn't appeal to me :/
> And since you're a storyteller...<sits down patiently to wait for a
> story>.
Well, then, I could cut-and-paste one but it is already up at
<http://www.sover.net/~jinx6568>, called "Passages". That's the story I
did on commission, and it has been submitted to the Transformation Archive
(though I don't know where it landed and am not in control of what area
it's placed or what rating it gets :) )
There is also the first three chapters of my novel 'Kings of Rainmoor'
(more felines) and some short stories of more or less experimental
formats, particularly experiments in fictional journalism.
I hope I write many more stories that would interest you :)
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
Chris Johnson
In article <4sc81c$j...@sol.caps.maine.edu>, Ben Goodridge
<bgoo...@maine.maine.edu> wrote:
> In fact, when I'm walking in the Sanctuary, the sight of just about
> any animal--be it heron or beaver or fox or firefly--will set something
> off.
> I could sit here all night trying to quantify it, and assigning every
> animal in the Kingdom its own little pigeonhole. I would never,
> probably couldn't, try to Shift into any other animal. I've worked too
> hard on the Wolf. But if those other alarms are tripped, if I can
> wolf-it at the sight of a fox or a firefly, then I suppose those
> spirits are there too, if I need them.
> I wish I knew what I was talking about up there. I could really use
> a hand with this one.
Maybe you are simply becoming more aware and sensitive, as a proper
animal would be.
I know that there was a (rather _long_) period when I was heavily
drugged out- meaning that even when I couldn't get the drugs (pot, mostly)
it dominated my every thought, consciously or subconsciously.
I believed being high made me more aware, when my reality was simply
that when I was high I let down some of the barriers and allowed myself to
perceive, to see and feel. And when the drug ran out, the barriers were
right back up again and the world was _cardboard_, a mocking, meaningless,
hollow facade. And then the pot stopped working like it used to- ugly,
ugly, scene.
My own path has included avoiding any drugs or drink for quite some
years now, and very slowly the veils began to lift- not drug-haze veils,
but the barriers I myself depended on, to avoid seeing or feeling
anything.
If I can see a heron or beaver or fox or firefly and _not_ have some
spark of wonder set off, it means I am drifting, that I might do well to
take time to myself or simply try and open up more. The blinders I had
were very effective, very persistent, and very 'human'. But humans are
animals too.
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
AloneWoof
In article <4sc79v$j...@sol.caps.maine.edu>, Ben Goodridge
<bgoo...@maine.maine.edu> writes:
>cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
>> A cat playing with its prey is not being mean or nasty. Those
>> characteristics are imposed upon it by humans looking at the act with
>> their human emotions and human values. All the cat sees and hears is
>> something that moves fast and makes exciting high-pitched squeaking
>> noises. Bright colors or flying stringy-things that are fun to pounce.
>> Give a cat an inanimate object that moves similarly and sounds similar
and
>> it is just as delighted. If it smells good, that's a bonus. The cat
>> doesn't torture its prey because it likes to impose suffering on the
mouse
>> or bird or what have you--that cat has no concept of the feelings of
>> another creature. If you are cruel, nasty or mean, it is not the were
>> side in you.
>>
>> Crystal, feeling protective of minx
>
>Amen. I leaped to the defense of cats and wolves one night against the
>Nihilistic Vampire for that reason. You simply cannot absolutely
>superimpose human morals, values, and emotions on an animal. The
>argument in general had started because the Vampire had commented that
>cats were "cruel" in their hunting style because they seemed to toy
>with their prey, while wolves were cruel in their hunting style because
>it was so brutally efficient that it seemed coldly calculating. (Never
>mind that nine out of ten wolf-preys get away scot-free.)
OK. Well, I'll buy some of that. I understand a cat's facination with
strings, prey, movement, etc. Remember, I keep them. I know what they're
like. But...in a singular case, take for instance a domestic house cat
that I had for a while named Poe. Poe liked to eat the back end of the
little anotole lizards that are common to the Keys. and leave the front
halves, still quite alive...to a slow and lingering death. I found many
of these. Explain, then please, why the back halves were so facinating
and not the front halves. Poe was also quite fond of killing the rather
common graywings (little birds). Upon belling her (in an attempt to
prevent this) she proceeded to go out and killed one of the merlins
(little hawks) that are also common to this area. She ate none of these,
but in an effort to feed us, as we fed her, deposted them upon our
doorstep each morning so that we might enjoy them for breakfast!(?)
>Maybe to some extent it is possible to anthropomorphize, especially if
>the animal is domesticated. In the human world, people who kill are
>negative and evil. Carnivorous animals kill. Therefore, carnivorous
>animals are evil, Q.E.D.
Yes to some extent. Cats "play" with their prey. Therefore, they are
cruel. I like to "play" as well, but it is only the ->human<- part of me
that recognizes it as cruel. The cat, and the wolf, could really care
less.
>So, rather than say that the "nasty" streak in AloneWoof (love that
>name!;))
Uh... my sister says it fits. I was always a loner.
>...isn't indicative of (gender?)'s
her's (I'm a female)
>were-side, perhaps it's more
>accurate to say that it isn't a "nasty" streak. I've acted with what,
>in the human world, could be defined as a cold brutality and efficiency
>against those I hunt in that world. You might call it "ruthlessness."
>But, A) it's tempered, and B) it works. I decide WHEN to use it, and
>when I do, it's effective.
I've acted with the cold brutality of the wolf as well. But that's
different, and perhaps a great deal ->more<- ruthless. The wolf goes out
for the kill. It's not playing...either verbally, or physically.
<Scratches at ear for a while>. Sorry, Ben. What pheonotype were you?
For some reason(?), I though you were a bear. Please correct me, if I'm
wrong.
:>
In another post (for which the message number didn't show--fancy that!)
dated 15 Jul 1996 05:58:39 GMT, Jinx_Tigr <jinx...@sover.net (Chris
Johnson)>
wrote:
> I still don't see that as truly Cat... more like just untamed animal
>nature in general, in particular _repressed_ animal nature, denied
outlets
>and kept locked up.
To me, when I feel it, it has a distinctly feline flavor. I would almost
say, a black panther, although I have dreamt on at least on occassion of
being a tiger, and enjoy being a bobcat ( in search of a little tail?)
when I am being "furry" which is disctinctly different from my were-side.
> Honestly, I feel that considering were-ness 'demons to wrestle' is an
>unfortunate way of looking at it. My personal view is were-ness as
>personal metaphor- which helps to explain why I find it very easy to cope
>with. (Of course, I'm in love with cats and so identifying with them is
>_hardly_ a worrisome thing for me :) )
Many, many. many of our pack members start out their personal lycanthrope
parts of their werecards with "I have always felt different..." from the
humaness surrounding me. But I have adjusted. We all, after a while,
adjust. My wereness deliniates, to a great extent, who I am. I dislike
crowds. I dislike being trapped, or feeling trapped (some people may call
this claustraphobia, but it is not quite the same thing). I need to be
(perpetually) in motion. When I sleep, I sleep quite soundly, perhaps to
make for the constant need for motion, but I often suffer from insomnia,
and would rather be out walking...running...loping(!) in the wind and
rain. (For example, this is an extremely long post for me, as I am off
doing ten other things as well -- and Oh, Godess, it's 11:33 already!
Where has the time gone!) However, some years ago, I fell in love, and
while most relationships leave both parties bruised to some extent, this
one left a lot of other people hurt as well, until I had gotten to the
point of..."It would be better if I didn't exist." I often wish to go
back to "whatever demonpit I was spawned in" as I would probably be better
off there, and not so much of a burden on humanity as a whole.
(Nope. Nope. Sorry. Watchdog, Demonhunter, I am your PERSONAL deamon, and
you will just HAVE to deal with me. Sorry. ;>)
Much of that feeling comes from things spawned by the "cold brutality" of
the carnivore that we discussed above. (This same brutality that will
look at the lame, the sick, the weak, the stupid, and in some cases, even
the old and say, "Why do we let these creatures LIVE and be a burden on
our society?") So, to the extent that I am a HUMAN...and I cannot deny
the condition in which I live, any more than you can...yes, this wereness,
this animal inside me, is a demon to wrestle.
>> On a personal note...Oh, Mr. Writer, may I suggest you browse around
>> alt.fan.dragon (or was it alt.dragon? I forget.) There's a lot of
>> activity, so just pick a couple of threads to follow at first. But
it's
>> shared writing. And you don't HAVE to be a dragon to get involved.
Only
>>like them.
>I think it's alt.fan.dragons-inn :)
I looked it up. Alt.fan.dragons.
>it sounds cool. Do please try to
>understand, though, that though I will write on commission my feline
>stubbornness is quite present in what I write, and it's difficult for me
>to imagine team writing. The idea doesn't appeal to me :/
MINE! MINE! MINE! Not a feline trait at all? Oh, no. 'Course not.
>> And since you're a storyteller...<sits down patiently to wait for a
>> story>.
> Well, then, I could cut-and-paste one but it is already up at
><http://www.sover.net/~jinx6568>, called "Passages". That's the story I
>did on commission, and it has been submitted to the Transformation
Archive
>(though I don't know where it landed and am not in control of what area
>it's placed or what rating it gets :) )
> There is also the first three chapters of my novel 'Kings of Rainmoor'
>(more felines) and some short stories of more or less experimental
>formats, particularly experiments in fictional journalism.
> I hope I write many more stories that would interest you :)
Thank you. I'll check those out.
(Always honor the storytellers among us. I don't know why. But it is
solidly engrained in me!)
James Harrion III
I'm not sure what anyone else is going to think of this, but I kind of think
that polyweres start at four weresides and above myself. Three I don't
know much about, and two is very rare.
While I do know some weres who have dream-shifted and mentally shifted
into other animals, sometimes two or three others (not simoultaneously
though) there typically is a primary form that they stick with.
--
***********************************************************************
Winterdreamer ez04...@ucdavis.edu
AHWW pack member
Jak Crow
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: > Also, alt.fan.furry is absolutely obsessed with artists and comics,
: >which greatly confuses and alienates me as I never see the point of all
: >the hype. I don't even _have_ a 'furry art' collection, and I'm a writer,
: >not a draw-er, and tend to feel like my art form is totally ignored by the
: >ravening furmongers with the exception of Elf Sternberg's Journal Entries,
: >which are just not my style and do nothing for me and sometimes really bug
: >me.
: An interesting comment, indicating that you've read more than
: one of them. I wonder if I should apologize for not being that
: appealing. What bugs you about them anyway? (Just curious, and always
: looking for a new group of people to appeal to).
Should also check out the Transformation Story Archive for.
There's seems to be an great number of stories there about
animal transformation and so forth. It'll will also show that the "writing
artform" is not being ignored.
Wanderer
> jak...@nntp.best.com (Jak Crow) wrote in article
<4sk74p$b...@nntp1.best.com>...
>
> Should also check out the Transformation Story Archive for.
> There's seems to be an great number of stories there about
> animal transformation and so forth. It'll will also show that the
"writing
> artform" is not being ignored.
>
>
The mailing list is great fun, too!:)
(I've got four stories in the archive by the time you read this.)
(And more on the way.)
:)
Yours authorily,
The writing,
Wanderer
wand...@why.net
wand...@whytel.com
CAYCEE AURORA PRICE
On 15 Jul 1996, Ben Goodridge wrote:
> cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
> > (AloneWoof) wrote:
> > > I have a very nasty streak in me that is only
> > > reflected by the nastiness of a cat "playing" with its prey. I can be
> > > real mean. Trust me. :)
> > A cat playing with its prey is not being mean or nasty. Those
> > characteristics are imposed upon it by humans looking at the act with
> > their human emotions and human values. All the cat sees and hears is
> > something that moves fast and makes exciting high-pitched squeaking
> > noises. Bright colors or flying stringy-things that are fun to pounce.
> > Give a cat an inanimate object that moves similarly and sounds similar and
> > it is just as delighted. If it smells good, that's a bonus. The cat
> > doesn't torture its prey because it likes to impose suffering on the mouse
> > or bird or what have you--that cat has no concept of the feelings of
> > another creature. If you are cruel, nasty or mean, it is not the were
> > side in you.
> > Crystal, feeling protective of minx
> Amen. I leaped to the defense of cats and wolves one night against the
> Nihilistic Vampire for that reason. You simply cannot absolutely
> superimpose human morals, values, and emotions on an animal. The
> argument in general had started because the Vampire had commented that
> cats were "cruel" in their hunting style because they seemed to toy
> with their prey, while wolves were cruel in their hunting style because
> it was so brutally efficient that it seemed coldly calculating. (Never
> mind that nine out of ten wolf-preys get away scot-free.)
< Yeah, but that's looking at it from the animals viewpoint, "I'm just doing
what nature intended.". Unfortunately there seem to be a LOT of humans who
insist on putting human motivation to animal instincts even if there isn't
even the remotest connection between the two. <sigh>
>
> Maybe to some extent it is possible to anthropomorphize, especially if
> the animal is domesticated. In the human world, people who kill are
> negative and evil. Carnivorous animals kill. Therefore, carnivorous
> animals are evil, Q.E.D.
< And not all humans who kill are doing it for negative motivations either.
Kinda puts a hole in that argument doesn't it? Granted from someones P.O.V.
killing will always be negative.
> So, rather than say that the "nasty" streak in AloneWoof (love that
> name!;)) isn't indicative of (gender?)'s were-side, perhaps it's more
> accurate to say that it isn't a "nasty" streak. I've acted with what,
> in the human world, could be defined as a cold brutality and efficiency
> against those I hunt in that world. You might call it "ruthlessness."
> But, A) it's tempered, and B) it works. I decide WHEN to use it, and
> when I do, it's effective.
< Exactly! I tend to do things the same way. I much prefer to avoid violence
and such other nastiness and will go out of my way to avoid it *IF* I can.
If you're willing to go to the trouble to force me to have to react that way
though I'll certainly ensure you get your efforts worth. And I'll do it
coldly, quietly, and in such a way as to be sure you won't do it again.
Losing your temper is fine, as long as you don't react while you're angry.
If you are going to do it, do it efficiently, quickly, and with the minimum
possible amount of fuss. To quote from Macbeth, "If t'were done, tis best
t'were done quickly." Personally I've drunk my fill of useless violence long
since. I don't like it, but I am very good at it and thus avoid using it.
Not vicious, nasty, mean, evil or any of the plethora of similar adjectives
people tend to attribute to such actions, just able to decide when it needs
must be used and to do so and take responsibility for my actions afterwards.
My sensei once told me that life is a cheap and easily taken thing which
once taken cannot be returned. That is why it is precious. Animals aren't
nasty since they don't plan to be. Humans do that. Therein lies the
difference IMO.
> As I say, I don't encourage flames, but I do so love lawsuits.
< Naw, just the cash settlements! :)
> Just my nickel's worth. (Inflation, you know.)
< And the price$ continue to ri$e...
> Ben Goodridge
> bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
> Pass the gravy.
< Ge'heil'es
< And those mashed potatoes too please
Ben Goodridge
CAYCEE AURORA PRICE <ca_...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
(A lot of good discussion chomped)
> > Maybe to some extent it is possible to anthropomorphize, especially if
> > the animal is domesticated. In the human world, people who kill are
> > negative and evil. Carnivorous animals kill. Therefore, carnivorous
> > animals are evil, Q.E.D.
>
> < And not all humans who kill are doing it for negative motivations either.
> Kinda puts a hole in that argument doesn't it? Granted from someones P.O.V.
> killing will always be negative.
You're absolutely right. I missed that. What I should have said was that
killing has a stigma about it; even those who kill for nobler motivations
(protection, i.e. police; preservation, i.e. soldiers, etc.) can get
twitchy about it years later. And the philosophical debate rages--
which takes more strength: to kill when one genuinely needs to kill,
or to not kill when one doesn't have to?
But let's put it another way. A wolf making his kill is doing nothing
more out of the ordinary than when I put a chicken in the oven or eat
a fair-sized steak. Now, no one will deny me the right to eat, but what
if someone came along and said that it was immoral and revolting of me
to sit down to a decent, square meal, that it's ugly and wrong for me
to fry up a pork chop? Now, no one offers me any alternatives.
The sight or even the thought of a wolf making a kill--well, if you've
seen that nature documentary, you know that humans are more likely to
cheer for the cute little bunny rabbit that got away from the big bad
mean cougar. But no one is as willing to cheer for the steaks that I
burn or any other gastronomic flub I make in the kitchen that renders
my dinner inedible.
> My sensei once told me that life is a cheap and easily taken thing which
> once taken cannot be returned. That is why it is precious. Animals aren't
> nasty since they don't plan to be. Humans do that. Therein lies the
> difference IMO.
Good opinion and I'd stick with it if I were you.
> > As I say, I don't encourage flames, but I do so love lawsuits.
>
> < Naw, just the cash settlements! :)
Yeah, I won my court case.
Ben Goodridge
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
Thanx dude
CAYCEE AURORA PRICE
On 15 Jul 1996, The Bear wrote:
> Ben Goodridge (bgoo...@maine.maine.edu) wrote:
> : I'm not sure how to respond because I have no idea what the hell I was
> : talking about in that post, and I guess what little was reposted wasn't
> *grin* It happens. It's okie.
< Especially once things get way too long. I've seen my name in a threads
history of "he said then she said which was replied to by" and not a word of
what followed was anything I'd said. Talk about confusion :).
> : For the wolf, the link is the strongest. It shoots right up off the
> : chart. It trips every alarm. I would only ever Shift into a wolf,
> : and I would never think to talk to any other spirit besides the wolf.
> : The wolf is what I've chosen--or rather, it chose me, I suppose. It
> : doesn't matter.
< That's how it was with myself and my cougar side. Then I got grabbed by
the throat and told in no uncertain terms "PAY ATTENTION TO ME DAMMIT!!!" by
the hawk side. This is also "off the chart". So you're not going to find me
arguing with it. Anything that makes itself known as thoroughly as it did is
not gonna be happy if you tell it that it is just a totem and you don't need
to pay attention to it as a were aspect.
> Okay, I see what you mean. And I think you've hit upon the essense of
> this entire debate. That MAX animal... that's the wereside. The others
> (which are still on the chart) may be totems, or just fascinations. But
> that "off the chartness" is what seems to qualify one's wereside.
< And what is to say that more than one isn't possible? Cougar has been here
for over two and a half decades, Hawk for a bit under six months, but I
truly don't think that Hawk is any less legitimate for taking longer to
manifest itself. Nearest I can tell, the Gryphon seems to be more in the
line of a guide/teacher. Seems more like I'm in HIS mind as a student than I
*AM* the creature as is the case with Hawk or Cougar.
> That is the problem that I have with polywereism, and why I tend to think
> (and this is a GENERALIZATION, not saying all) many may simply be
> confused. Especially since the derth of them are newbies. EVERY animal
> can't trigger that "off the chartness" (unless you're Dr. Doolittle.)
> And I think that after a bit more introspection, many folks are going to
> discover that there is one animal in particular that REALLY sticks out.
< <hums a bit from "If I Could Talk With The Animals> Rex Harrison I'm
not!:>! To a certain degree I have to agree with you there. Saying "I've
shifted into all three dozen of my were forms at least once." does not make
it a wereside from my P.O.V. either, more along the lines of something a
totem or guide might do to teach you a *little* of what they are. But after
going through the fun of fighting/ignoring/arguing with/denying the presence
of Hawk and feeling like I was dying by doing it, I am not going to try
telling it to go away now. I outright REFUSE to go through THAT again!!!
This is legit from where I stand. Ask any who watched me as I tried to fight
the addition. They can tell you it was neither fun nor healthy. When
something goes to that much trouble to get your attention, there's a reason.
Now all I need to do is figure out what, and why it happened NOW. <Sigh> :(
Both Hawk and Gryphon who came along at the same time are new (relatively
speaking) to me, but I've been learning from them both, and don't think I
should try to deny that they are a part of me in one way or another. Gryphon
as mentor, Hawk as who I am. Cougar is still me as well, but a different
aspect of me. It's kind of strange actually the difference between the Hawk
and the Cat, but I think it happened because what Hawk gives/makes me is
something that was needed right now in my makeup. Still learning to "slip
the bonds of earth" as it were. And I feel better than I have in a LONG time
for doing so when I fly.
> Cheers,
> Gary
>
> --
> ********* ***** ** Rev. Gary Coulbourne
> *************************.* ULC Minister, Bear Activist
> ****** *********** ** *******o
> ******* ********* **** ****`-
> ******* ********* *****
> ****** ********** **** be...@dmv.com
> ## ***** ***** ## ****
> ### ***** ### **** http://www.dmv.com/~bear
> #,,, ***,,, ##,,, **,,,
< Ge'heil'es
< Cougar with a bird on his back, strange but interesting so far...
Morris
>(A lot of good discussion chomped)
(And more chomped by me)
>The sight or even the thought of a wolf making a kill--well, if you've
>seen that nature documentary, you know that humans are more likely to
>cheer for the cute little bunny rabbit that got away from the big bad
>mean cougar. But no one is as willing to cheer for the steaks that I
>burn or any other gastronomic flub I make in the kitchen that renders
>my dinner inedible.
I can't resist jumping in here, because there's one thing that really
pisses me off: the people who wine about the big bad hunters killing
the poor wittle bunny wabbits/deer/whatever--but never stop to think
that the hamburger they ate for lunch came from a cow whose life was
unpleasant and whose death was even more so. At least hunters are
honest--they can't do that clever little act of doublethink which
allows them to forget where their dinner came from. People like that
are the reason I won't identify myself as an "animal lover."
>
>
>Ben Goodridge
>bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
>Thanx dude
/\_/\ GreyFox
/ ~ ^ \
' @ @ ' “I must obey the inscrutable exhortations
\ / of my soul.” --Calvin
>V< (of “Calvin & Hobbes”)
Julie Heckman
morr...@ix.netcom.com(Morris) wrote:
>I can't resist jumping in here, because there's one thing that really
>pisses me off: the people who wine about the big bad hunters killing
>the poor wittle bunny wabbits/deer/whatever--but never stop to think
>that the hamburger they ate for lunch came from a cow whose life was
>unpleasant and whose death was even more so. At least hunters are
>honest--they can't do that clever little act of doublethink which
>allows them to forget where their dinner came from. People like that
>are the reason I won't identify myself as an "animal lover."
I'm an animal lover... I particularly love them served rare. ;)
Seriously, though, hunting isn't that bad, as long as they use
everything on the animal (very little of that cow used for hamburger
is thrown away; the "trash" meats are often ground up for hotdogs, dog
food, or animal feed). Of course, trophy hunting outrages me.
Hunting for food is one thing; hunting for trophies and the desire to
kill is horrible.
Erin
-----
"Heathen, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship
something that he can see and feel." -- Ambrose Bierce
*email: er...@cts.com
*Web: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/e/erin
*Copyright Julie Heckman, 1996. Reproduction or redistribution
of the above on the Microsoft Network is strictly prohibited.
Howling Heart
sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>I am never sorry for the meat I consume.
>It gives me my flesh and my health.
>It is something that died so that my life could be enriched.
>So that I can live and be healthy. And I have no different feeling for the
>plants I eat.
>Everything we eat pretty much comes from some other life. Our lives come
>from other life. Someday (modern methods of embalming and cremation aside)
>our bodies will provide life for somethign else.
>This sacred loop has been going on for a while now (understatement).
>So I eat meat. And I like it.
>Coyote
>--
>---
>Coyote Osborne;1085 NE 179 Terrace;North Miami Beach, FL 33162
>New ISP... new addresses forthcoming...
I agree. A lot.
Reindeer anyone? It's fresh from Jokkmokk...
Care & Take Care,
-=HOWLING=-
-=HEART=-
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
a.k.a.
Sinclair Andersen, Proud&Pagan member of AHWW
Coyote Osborne
Hugy...@ix.netcom.com
On 7/22/96 6:49PM, in message <31f412ad...@news3.cts.com>, Julie Heckman
<er...@cts.com> wrote:
<CHOMPED for brevity>
> I'm an animal lover... I particularly love them served rare. ;)
> Seriously, though, hunting isn't that bad, as long as they use
> everything on the animal (very little of that cow used for hamburger
> is thrown away; the "trash" meats are often ground up for hotdogs, dog
> food, or animal feed). Of course, trophy hunting outrages me.
> Hunting for food is one thing; hunting for trophies and the desire to
> kill is horrible.
>
What really gets my hackles raised is when a typical hunter says they hunt
<generic herbivore> to keep it from overpopulating. I usually remind him
(notice how hunters are almost invariably male) if he and his ancestors hadn't
killed off every natural predator in the area larger than a housecat, the
predators would be keeping the herbivores in check, not him.
I almost start foaming at the mouth when I also point out to would-be hunters
that humans almost never killed these predators for food. My Louisiana history
teacher spoke of the activity in the 18th and 19th century called
'Bear-baiting', where a bear was captured and chained to a stake. Then the
hosts of this entertainment would start siccing dogs on them until the bear
tired, and the dogs would tear the exhausted bear to pieces. This was a popular
form of public entertainment, folks! No wonder most hunters make me feel ill. :P
> --
Jeff Ruppel
A.K.A.: HuggyWolf, Unity
E-mail: Hugy...@ix.netcom.com
Skeezix88
On the previous thread, Ben Goodridge <bgoo...@maine.maine.edu>
wrote:
<snip>
But let's put it another way. A wolf making his kill is doing nothing
more out of the ordinary than when I put a chicken in the oven or eat
a fair-sized steak. Now, no one will deny me the right to eat, but what
if someone came along and said that it was immoral and revolting of me
to sit down to a decent, square meal, that it's ugly and wrong for me
to fry up a pork chop? Now, no one offers me any alternatives.
Funny you should mention that... I just got back from Colorado, where they
make some fine eatin' outta cuddly things like elk and buffalo, to name my
two faves. I was working on a remake of The Shining with a bunch o'
Hollywood types, more than a few of which were morally opposed to, well,
carnivorism. I quickly learned whom to avoid during lunchtime when I
wanted to enjoy my bisonburger without a lecture. Of course, I also
learned that it can be fun to merrily tear away at the critter's flesh,
and watch all those willowy vegetarians blanch as the juice trickles down
my chin. I may consider myself a scavenger rather than a predator (after
all, do I go out and shoot my own Big Macs? Naw, that's what the clown in
the yellow suit does *for* me!), but I harbor no illusions about what I
eat, and where it's from. That's another reason why I like buffalo.
Range-fed and all. But am I the only one who thinks dolphin-safe tuna,
while a marvelous advance for the dolphins, kinda neglects the rights of
tuna? Oh, well. Eat or be eaten, say I.
-Blue Methuselah... a coyote in a Cougar!
Skee...@aol.com
Weres are welcome in San Diego.
Coyote Osborne
In article <31f412ad...@news3.cts.com>, er...@cts.com (Julie Heckman) wrote:
> food, or animal feed). Of course, trophy hunting outrages me.
> Hunting for food is one thing; hunting for trophies and the desire to
> kill is horrible.
I agree.
It makes the hunt a celebration of death and the denial of the sacredness
of another's life.
IMHO, of course.
When you hunt to eat... you are affirming life. Your own and that of the
generations that may come from you.
When you hunt to kill, you are taking from the wheel and not putting back.
IMHO of course.
My father once, when I told him I wished to kill something, said that I
should only kill it if I intended to eat it, or if I thought it would harm
me otherwise.
It's kind of stayed with me.
Coyote Osborne
In article <N.072396....@nor-la4-10.ix.netcom.com>,
Hugy...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 'Bear-baiting', where a bear was captured and chained to a stake. Then the
> hosts of this entertainment would start siccing dogs on them until the bear
> tired, and the dogs would tear the exhausted bear to pieces. This was a
We won;t discuss "fox hunts" which still go on. And Turkey Shoots.
Amazingly, there are apparently some "fox hunts" where the animal is not
even hunted. It's released from a little cage already surrounded by
"hunters" and their dogs, attacked while it tries to escape then generall
given the "coup de grace" by a human with a club.
I still occasionally awake from sleep with a vivid image... I once saw a
photo of a young kid, about 12, standing there with his dad. The boy's
face was streaked with blood, and he was holding the club he'd beat a fox
to death with. The father was standing there holding the animal by the
tail. The two were grinning happily, like they'd just done something
grand.
Amazing how much a still photo can make you feel like bashing someone with
a club.
Crystal
In article <stygian-2407...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> We won;t discuss "fox hunts" which still go on. And Turkey Shoots.
>
> Amazingly, there are apparently some "fox hunts" where the animal is not
> even hunted. It's released from a little cage already surrounded by
> "hunters" and their dogs, attacked while it tries to escape then generall
> given the "coup de grace" by a human with a club.
There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
I haven't followed the sport very closely despite my youth's preoccupation
with everything horsey, however I'm under the impression that foxhunting
did once actually serve a purpose aside from entertainment and status.
I'd certainly say that there is no longer a valid reason to slaughter
foxes (foxen? fox?), but foxhunting is a deeply established tradition with
many enthusiasts and it can be entirely harmless.
Crystal
Howling Heart
cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
>In article <stygian-2407...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
>sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>> We won;t discuss "fox hunts" which still go on. And Turkey Shoots.
>>
>> Amazingly, there are apparently some "fox hunts" where the animal is not
>> even hunted. It's released from a little cage already surrounded by
>> "hunters" and their dogs, attacked while it tries to escape then generall
>> given the "coup de grace" by a human with a club.
>There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
>until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
>beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
I've heard about it, but only as a second hand information so it's
something I can't confirm...
>I haven't followed the sport very closely despite my youth's preoccupation
>with everything horsey, however I'm under the impression that foxhunting
>did once actually serve a purpose aside from entertainment and status.
Sorry, Crystal, but this is why foxhunting is such a good example.
It has _never_ been anything but a status oriented entertainment. The
farmers who tried to protect their hens etc from the fox used traps
and other methods. Those who wanted the fox for its pelt, used snares,
so they wouldn't damage it.
>I'd certainly say that there is no longer a valid reason to slaughter
>foxes (foxen? fox?), but foxhunting is a deeply established tradition with
>many enthusiasts and it can be entirely harmless.
"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - the unspeakable
in full pursuit of the uneatable."
Oscar Wilde
It is a deeply established tradition (but _not_ a long one) of the
English upper class. But IMO that does not make it more acceptable. It
is still done for entertainment and as a social gathering for a chosen
few.
Care & Take Care,
-=HOWLING=-
-=HEART=-
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
a.k.a.
Sinclair Andersen,
physically residing in Stockholm, Sweden
but you are always welcome to my
Cyber L@ir at http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf
or mail me: ed...@algonet.se
My WERECARD can be found at
http://www.algonet.se/~edge/wolf/werewolf/howl.htm
=+= My opponent knew me so well, =+=
=+= I had to make a move that surprised us both =+=
>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<
>Crystal
Rei Nakazawa
to post, due to emacs being shitty on the computer I'm on now...
On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Howling Heart wrote:
> cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
> >There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
> >until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
> >beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
>
> I've heard about it, but only as a second hand information so it's
> something I can't confirm...
Recent innovation, I'm sure. After all, what's the FUN of a hunt without
something to kill at the end? <snarl>
> >I haven't followed the sport very closely despite my youth's preoccupation
> >with everything horsey, however I'm under the impression that foxhunting
> >did once actually serve a purpose aside from entertainment and status.
>
> Sorry, Crystal, but this is why foxhunting is such a good example.
> It has _never_ been anything but a status oriented entertainment. The
> farmers who tried to protect their hens etc from the fox used traps
> and other methods. Those who wanted the fox for its pelt, used snares,
> so they wouldn't damage it.
Entirely correct, at least from what I know, and a book on foxes (thanks,
Leo!) that has a short chapter on the hunt. Been a "sport" apparently
since the time of Alexander the Great... Even influenced British land
laws.
Oh, and Coyote's mention earlier in the thread of that photo (one that I'd
dearly love to see, if only so I could know who to kill) reminds me of
another tidbit that the chapter in the book shared. In Germany they had
fox tossing. If you can't figure out what that is, think of midget
tossing, only with foxes.
Bastards.
> >I'd certainly say that there is no longer a valid reason to slaughter
> >foxes (foxen? fox?), but foxhunting is a deeply established tradition with
> >many enthusiasts and it can be entirely harmless.
Key words, "can be." Most people simply don't bother, or don't want to
break that deeply established tradition. Fox hunting without foxes is
fine with me (especially if it doesn't require a fox to be held in
captivity at all), but the very concept is abhorrent to me, for obvious
reasons. :>
> "The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - the unspeakable
> in full pursuit of the uneatable."
> Oscar Wilde
Hee hee... <tries to get MP sketch out of head>
> It is a deeply established tradition (but _not_ a long one) of the
> English upper class. But IMO that does not make it more acceptable. It
> is still done for entertainment and as a social gathering for a chosen
> few.
As I said, it might be more established as a general sport than one might
think. STILL doesn't excuse it, though, I agree. Hate it all, myself.
OTOH, I AM biased. <g> I say all us foxes should round up an aristocrat
and chase him for a few acres. ;>
BlackPaws
Maybe this is why I was so scared of dogs as a kid...? <chuckle>
Rorschach
On 24 Jul 1996, Crystal wrote:
> There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
> until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
> beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
>
> I haven't followed the sport very closely despite my youth's preoccupation
> with everything horsey, however I'm under the impression that foxhunting
> did once actually serve a purpose aside from entertainment and status.
> I'd certainly say that there is no longer a valid reason to slaughter
> foxes (foxen? fox?), but foxhunting is a deeply established tradition with
> many enthusiasts and it can be entirely harmless.
I once heard of a rather entertaining variation of the fox hunt. Instead
of a foc, the hunters and dogs are chasing after a person (a willing
volunterr hopefully). Sounds like it would be fun (playing the fox that is).
. . Rorschach
| \ / |
|/ """ \? A stark pattern of Black and White
//,\ /,\\ Within it you can find images, reflections. Maybe Balance.
\ |_| / I walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
`=' "NOW is the time to RAGE against the dying of the light!"
Spyder Witiko
In article <stygian-2307...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> My father once, when I told him I wished to kill something, said that I
> should only kill it if I intended to eat it, or if I thought it would harm
> me otherwise.
>
> It's kind of stayed with me.
Does that apply to the long pig, too, cousin? <evil grin>
- Spyder Witiko, kokodhem-at-large
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Friends help you move; REAL friends help you move bodies."
___ ___
/\ _|_ /\ | ... "We have had the veils lifted from our eyes,
/ /\_|_/\ \ | and that is not bad. We _know_ for certain that
/ / /\|/\ \ \ | things are not as they seem. We _know_ that this
--------*--------| world is full of dangerous and mysterious powers.
\ \ \/|\/ / / | That gives us an advantage..."
\ \/_|_\/ / | Whitley Strieber - 'The Wild'
\/__|__\/ |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
mailto:spy...@xmission.com URL:<http://www.xmission.com/~spyder/>
Crystal
In article <4t6knh$h...@epimetheus.algonet.se>, ed...@algonet.se (Howling
Heart) wrote:
>"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - the unspeakable
>in full pursuit of the uneatable."
> Oscar Wilde
>
>It is a deeply established tradition (but _not_ a long one) of the
>English upper class. But IMO that does not make it more acceptable. It
>is still done for entertainment and as a social gathering for a chosen
>few.
Hunt clubs these days allow pretty much anyone to join; foxhunting is
*not* merely for the few wealthy upper-class. I grant that horses are
expensive hobbies, but I supported mine on a part-time shit-shoveling job
for years without help from my parents. We were *far* from upper class.
There are plenty of things that are done as entertainment and as a social
gathering for a chosen few. Do you have objections to golf? Yachting?
Sailing? Aviation? They're all pretty expensive and can get quite
snooty.
I note by the way that our experience stems from within the systems of
different countries; if the foxhunting where you are differs from the
foxhunting here in the States, please pardon my ignorance.
Crystal
Shuck
Rorschach <o...@efn.org> wrote:
>I once heard of a rather entertaining variation of the fox hunt. Instead
>of a fox, the hunters and dogs are chasing after a person (a willing
>volunterr hopefully). Sounds like it would be fun (playing the fox that is).
That would be hunting with bloodhounds. That is an enormous amount of
fun, the prey eventually gets licked to death!
Trying to do this with real foxhounds would not be a good idea. When
the quarry is found, it could all get very messy...
Shuck
, _--_--___--~~-_/^.__.
(_/ (~__ (~ )_---~ John Ambrose - Cambridge, England.
( \ ~~~---\ \ email: sh...@dial.pipex.com
#########\,,#######\_,,###### www: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/shuck/
Skeezix88
sa...@po.cwru.edu (AzureWolf WinterSun) wrote:
>> But am I the only one who thinks dolphin-safe tuna,
>> while a marvelous advance for the dolphins, kinda neglects the rights
of
> >tuna? Oh, well. Eat or be eaten, say I.
>I'd love to get your point, but I don't know what you mean by 'rights of
>the tuna'. Could you please clarify for me?
(Deep Breath)... A coupla years ago I went down to the Chinese Theatre for
the cast & crew screening of some movie I worked on. Biiiiiiig
theatre-ful of Hollywood types. So they showed a coupla trailers, then
showed this exceptionally saccharin paen to the efforts of the Correct...
over lingering, sweeping shots of Hawaiian waterfalls, crystal-clear
lakes, a proud rainforest, and burbling brooks, were little congratulatory
phrases like "Last year, you recycled 456 gazillion tons of aluminum cans"
and "Thanks to your buying dolphin-safe tuna, you saved the lives of 23
bottlenose dolphins" and "Your paper-recycling efforts saved 12 million
acres of trees", concluding with "So far, so good. Keep up the good
work."
Now this well-intentioned little thank-you card, by itself, is harmless,
and does good by promoting further efforts in recycling and earth-friendly
activities. I have no quarrel with that... I applaud it! But after every
sentence in the damn trailer, the audience would whoop and holler and pat
itself on the back as if *that theatre-ful of people*, all by itself, had
accomplished those aims... and when the movie was over, they left their
trash lying all over the floor of the theatre as usual... And I wondered
why the "dolphin-safe tuna" part got the loudest cheers. Until that day,
I'd never heard of "dolphin-safe tuna"... I guess because I don't like
tuna. I hadn't been aware that so many dolphins would get caught in tuna
nets and die horrible deaths. I imagine that the idea of such beautiful,
intelligent critters being wasted in such a way caused a huge uproar,
perhaps a tuna boycott, until the fishers figured out a way to harvest
tuna without endangering dolphins. My only point (and it's a small,
unimportant one) is that harvesting tuna in a manner that's safe for
dolphins... is still harvesting tuna. I've said before that I eat meat
that others kill for me, and I have no moral problem with eating tuna
(dolphin-safe or otherwise, actually. Can we believe the label? Can we
really?). I just don't like the taste. But to me it doesn't show a great
deal of feeling for "the sanctity of life" to spend all this time and
money to save a few hundred dolphins, and still harvest untold zillions of
tons of "chickens of the sea." It shows more of a good sense of
marketing, rather than actual ethics. I'm certainly not saying that the
tuna industry should go back to their old methods... honestly, my only
gripe is that a theatre-ful of my colleagues thought that they had Done
Their Part, simply because a movie trailer led them to think so. But
that's what I get for working with such plastic people in the first place.
Of course, there's always the chance that I'm 10 lbs. of Bovine Fecal
Matter in a 5 lb. sack.
Rorschach
On 27 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
> Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
A friend and I had a long discussion about this quite a while ago. I
think that the final thing that we came up with was that if hungry enough
both of us would be perfectly willing to eat humans, but neither of us
would be willing to go out and activly kill people for food. (So I'm a
coyote, i'm s'posed to scavenge)
Here is an interesting counter question (that will probably draw a hell
of a flame or two)
Under what conditions would you eat dog?
Coyote Osborne
In article <cvf2-24079...@128.253.82.114>, cv...@cornell.edu
(Crystal) wrote:
> In article <stygian-2407...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
> sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>
> > We won;t discuss "fox hunts" which still go on. And Turkey Shoots.
> >
> > Amazingly, there are apparently some "fox hunts" where the animal is not
> > even hunted. It's released from a little cage already surrounded by
> > "hunters" and their dogs, attacked while it tries to escape then generall
> > given the "coup de grace" by a human with a club.
>
> There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
> until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
> beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
Only run till he goes to ground? That's not torment?
We finally disagree! <grin>
I dunno, sounds terrifying and lousy to me. I doubt the fox gets a big
bang out of that.
I just don't think that critters were put here to be entertainment for humans.
> I haven't followed the sport very closely despite my youth's preoccupation
> with everything horsey, however I'm under the impression that foxhunting
> did once actually serve a purpose aside from entertainment and status.
Yes. To protect peopel from the terrible ravening foxes that were eatign
all their food and starving humanity. (tongue firmly in cheek). : )
Never mind that humanity thinks nothing of taking all the land and all the
waters on it for it's own use and grudges the other creatures home and
food.
Once peopel sit on a piece of land, they think that makes it "belong" to
them. And they have always resented any other creature that tries to make
a living off "their" land. So they would hunt them as if they were
criminals. Amazingly, I've read accounts around rennaissance time sand
earlier of animals being declared "guilty" of crimes and sentenced to
death. No lie. Really. I am not making this up.
> I'd certainly say that there is no longer a valid reason to slaughter
> foxes (foxen? fox?), but foxhunting is a deeply established tradition with
> many enthusiasts and it can be entirely harmless.
Not to the fox, unless the fox is never present for it.
You want a good one? Guess what they often drag to lay down that scent trail...
A fox.
Yes, I know sometimes it's a synthetic or "humanely obtained" scent
baitt... but I think the whole fox hun t thing is one of the _huge_
indicators of the traits prevalent in what passes for humanity that I do
not like.
Just me.
I'm rather unpleasant-natured as you will recall <grin>
Coyote Osborne
In article <4t6knh$h...@epimetheus.algonet.se>, ed...@algonet.se (Howling
Heart) wrote:
> It is a deeply established tradition (but _not_ a long one) of the
> English upper class. But IMO that does not make it more acceptable. It
> is still done for entertainment and as a social gathering for a chosen
> few.
Ummm... it is by _no_ means isolated to the English upper class. The joy
has spread to many places... albeit most of them were originally english
colonies... <grin>
The US for one.
Coyote Osborne
In article <4t9mjr$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, skee...@aol.com
(Skeezix88) wrote:
> money to save a few hundred dolphins, and still harvest untold zillions of
> tons of "chickens of the sea." It shows more of a good sense of
> marketing, rather than actual ethics. I'm certainly not saying that the
> tuna industry should go back to their old methods...
Ahhh... but Flipper is cute and intelligent, and so easy to
anthropomorphize... while tuna is just something you eat.
I don't have a problem with eating tuna. Now with harvesting tuna (an most
other fish and other creatures) as if there is no end to the Earth's
bounty I do.
People think that it is not possible to fish out the seas.
I wonder what they'll do when there aren't any more of certain staple
kinds of fish.
> honestly, my only
> gripe is that a theatre-ful of my colleagues thought that they had Done
> Their Part, simply because a movie trailer led them to think so. But
> that's what I get for working with such plastic people in the first place.
Amazing.
People will believe almost anything, as long as it caters to what they
want to believe about themselves. People liek to believe that:
They can "make a difference" and "do good" without actually having to
expend any effort.
That all their problems can be disposed of by turning them opver to the
"proper authorities" or by "taking the latest wonder pill".
I was working for package design company once, and a client us telling us
all about their wonderful fat-reducing vitamin compound.
I remember my boss giving him a very patient look, then saying, now you
know that isn;t true... the only way to lose weight is to change your
pattern of diet and exercise, and your product doesn't do anything more
than the zillion of other products like this.
The client was sulky... he realized he'd been trying to sell the idea on
the people who knew as much as he did how silly it all was. We knew what
was in his goo. We designed the labels. We got the nutrition info.
And then of course we designed the label that said it worked great. Yes
folks, two tablets a day, no exercie, eat all you want of what you want
and watch the pounds melt away.... Right, sure.
I always hated that job. Lying for a living.
Coyote Osborne
In article <4t7dot$o...@phakt.usc.edu>, naka...@phakt.usc.edu (Rei
Nakazawa) wrote:
> OTOH, I AM biased. <g> I say all us foxes should round up an aristocrat
> and chase him for a few acres. ;>
I like that idea.
But what to do with him at the end?
Let our dogs chew him up or bludgeon him to death with clubs?
Hmmm...
I know! We tie him to a chair and subject him to a marathon of the entire
run of "Gilligans Island"!
Twice!
Coyote Osborne
In article <cvf2-25079...@128.253.82.212>, cv...@cornell.edu
(Crystal) wrote:
> I note by the way that our experience stems from within the systems of
> different countries; if the foxhunting where you are differs from the
> foxhunting here in the States, please pardon my ignorance.
Ummm... Crystal...
You know... foxhunting here in the states is not all that different.
The real gory stuff is underground/illegal.
Like dogfighting. That's not legal, but it goes on every day in South Miami.
I worked with a gentleman that liked to go shooting. He would occasionally
hunt deer, too. He had several surreptitious offers to go on fox hunts
(among other obnoxious things).
Coyote Osborne
In article <spyder-2507...@news.xmission.com>,
spy...@xmission.com (Spyder Witiko) wrote:
> In article <stygian-2307...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
> sty...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>
> > My father once, when I told him I wished to kill something, said that I
> > should only kill it if I intended to eat it, or if I thought it would harm
> > me otherwise.
> >
> > It's kind of stayed with me.
>
> Does that apply to the long pig, too, cousin? <evil grin>
Of course!
Well... depends on the individual long pig.
I like to think that making fertilizer out of them is also adding to the
natural cycles. : )=
But why not?
Hey! That's a good rousing question!
Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
Coyote
Julie Heckman
skee...@aol.com (Skeezix88) wrote:
> But to me it doesn't show a great
>deal of feeling for "the sanctity of life" to spend all this time and
>money to save a few hundred dolphins, and still harvest untold zillions of
>tons of "chickens of the sea."
I'll tell ya, the reason I buy "dolphin-safe" tuna (when I buy tuna at
all) is less a feeling of "sanctity of life" (I've long ago lost my
youthful idealism about *that*, and realize we all have to eat to
live) than it is a feeling of "that animal is wonderful, and I don't
want to see it destroyed/become extinct". It's the reason I support
the San Diego Zoo, and their CRES (a critter re-population program)
program. I don't like to see entire species go extinct because humans
can't learn when to kill and when not to kill. Now, I don't know that
dolphins are endangered, or even threatened, but until I find out one
way or another, better safe than sorry. And even if they aren't, I
don't want them to be just for the sake of buying cheap tuna.
Ben Goodridge
>
> think that the final thing that we came up with was that if hungry enough
> both of us would be perfectly willing to eat humans, but neither of us
> would be willing to go out and activly kill people for food. (So I'm a
> coyote, i'm s'posed to scavenge)
>
> Here is an interesting counter question (that will probably draw a hell
> of a flame or two)
>
> Under what conditions would you eat dog?
H'm. I wrote quite an amusing little story once about a group of
animal-men who, at the request of the Last Will and Testament of a human,
sat down to a perfectly ordinary, somewhat formal meal with one minor
difference--the entree was the dearly departed.
He'd been prepared just as you'd prepare any meat--some of him had been
roasted, some of him had been fried, bits of him had gone into stew...
But the funny thing was, that by the time I'd finished writing the story,
any squeamishness I'd have previously had towards eating human meat was
gone out the window. I was even a little (now, don't have me arrested
here) curious. Of course, I also get curious about what it might be like
to go skydiving. I'm not likely to go hunting anytime soon. I'm sure
I can find much better fare in my fridge than to go out Dahmerizing
people. I'll settle for Anthony Hopkins' quiet assurance that they
"taste like chicken."
As for eating a dog, I understand that some Koreans in California were
appalled with the practice of putting stray dogs to sleep. That, they
thought, was a lot of wasted food. Besides, we eat pigs, which make
equally amiable domesticated animals. I don't know if I'd eat a dog
any more than I'd eat a human, because I understand the meat is as
tough as an inner tube. I guess I'd have to be pretty hungry to snack
on either.
Wanting to take a box of Kentucky Fried Chicken in to see the movie
"Alive,"
Ben Goodridge
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
http://maine.maine.edu/~bgoodr61
Coyote Osborne
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960727...@garcia.efn.org>,
Rorschach <o...@efn.org> wrote:
> On 27 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
>
>
> > Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
I just realized, I didn't answer my own question. : )
If I were starving, and there was nothing to eat but a human, and that
human was:
A: Dead, and somone I didn't care too deeply about
or
B: Someone alive and who I was going to kill anyway... someone threatening
myself or those I care about in some way.
I might eat them.
Maybe.
But then humans are not really good for you. All sorts of yucky stuff they eat.
Bleah.
And the practice is frowned upon in most places. : )
I don't think I would eat the body of someone I cared about, regardless of
how they became dead. Sentimentality.
And of course, I wouldn't eat _anything_ that might make me sick.
> Here is an interesting counter question (that will probably draw a hell
> of a flame or two)
>
> Under what conditions would you eat dog?
Under the same conditions that I might eat a person.
Parrhesia
>They can "make a difference" and "do good" without actually having to
>expend any effort.
>That all their problems can be disposed of by turning them over to the
>"proper authorities" or by "taking the latest wonder pill".
<intresting health scam story SNORPED!>
Ah, but there's usually a certain amount of supposed 'work' that's gone
into it. Like the 'make money fast' schemes, where this one poor (smirk)
individual worked really HARD to find the right way to make money...and is
willing to just GIVE it to you!
Or even better, health products like you mentioned. I know many people
who buy these gagets that in 'just 10 minutes a day' will give you a
perfect body. You pay $100's and $1000's of dollars for them, becuase you
feel that then, you have bought all their hard work and now it will be
easy for you. Why waste the time doing push-ups when you can just dish
out some cash?
It does make sence in one way; that money is work and that you can trade
one kind of work (your job) for another (a good or service made by someone
else). But people are trying to buy things that can't be sold. Some
things you just have to do for yourself.
>I always hated that job. Lying for a living.
Glad you got out of it. There are some jobs that just aren't worth any
amount of pay...
-parr
Oh, and for people who saw "DragonHeart":
<Pointing at Coyote > "MEAT! Meatmeatmeatmeatmeatmeat!!"
Better run! ;) ;)
Crystal
In article <coyotee-2707...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> In article <cvf2-25079...@128.253.82.212>, cv...@cornell.edu
> (Crystal) wrote:
>
> > I note by the way that our experience stems from within the systems of
> > different countries; if the foxhunting where you are differs from the
> > foxhunting here in the States, please pardon my ignorance.
>
> Ummm... Crystal...
>
> You know... foxhunting here in the states is not all that different.
I have no way of knowing that. Where is .se? Sweden? Unless it's a new
denotation for Canada, I've never been there. I was merely trying *not*
to assume I knew what things are like in some place I've never been.
<Crystal bangs her space bar in irritation>
> The real gory stuff is underground/illegal.
I'd have to check, but I don't think killing the fox is either underground
or illegal.
> Like dogfighting. That's not legal, but it goes on every day in South Miami.
Sure. It goes on in Joe-Bob's garage every other Saturday night back
home, too. Actually, I don't know anyone personally who does it, but I
know it goes on.
> I worked with a gentleman that liked to go shooting. He would occasionally
> hunt deer, too. He had several surreptitious offers to go on fox hunts
> (among other obnoxious things).
Surreptitious? Around here if one wants to go foxhunting, one makes nice
to the local Huntmaster and joins the local hunt club.
First, I will state unequivocally that I find trophy hunting abhorrent. I
wouldn't participate in any foxhunt that hunted down a fox for the "fun"
of killing it, nor one where the trail was laid with a dead fox.
However... I do eat meat, I love meat, and I have no problem with hunting
down a deer or other animal (assuming I ever learn how to do it) to kill
it and eat it. And you know what? They rarely die from the first shot.
They run/walk/limp/stagger through the woods, sometimes for miles,
bleeding and suffering, before they either collapse from their injuries or
the hunter catches up with them and finishes them off. It sucks. But
it's life. It's a lousy way to die, but I'll bet if they had a choice
they'd choose that over a life on a 20-foot cement lot that ends with a
bolt to the temple or however they put meat animals down these days.
From another post:
> > There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
> > until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
> > beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
>
> Only run till he goes to ground? That's not torment?
Wrong word, perhaps. By the way, "go to ground" means he pops down into
his hole, not that he collapses in exhaustion. Just in case that wasn't
clear. It may be slightly on the cruel side, but come on... haven't you
ever chased a chicken and laughed at its flapping and squawking? Haven't
you ever played spin-the-cat on a linoleum floor? Haven't you ever
tweaked some girl's ponytail till she ran away from you? How is this any
different? My cat survived being Moria's first-year vet school Physical
Exam subject without developing any new neuroses. <shrug> 'Tis life.
Crystal
Coyote Osborne
In article <4tggb7$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, parr...@aol.com
(Parrhesia) wrote:
> >I always hated that job. Lying for a living.
>
> Glad you got out of it. There are some jobs that just aren't worth any
> amount of pay...
Very true... unfortunately, I'm currently back in it. : b
This one's different though... you know those really ugly and tastless ads
for GAY/BI PPHONE SEXXX!!!!! that appear in some papers and magazines? You
know... the ones that have little ballons strategically placed over the
man's genitals that say "ONLY XX Cents a minute!"
I make those.
Oh, and construction company brochures.
Amazing mix, eh?
: )
If I don't find some way of living that is not soul numbing soon, I'm
going to go mad. I mean moreso.
Coyote Osborne
In article <cvf2-28079...@128.253.45.53>, cv...@cornell.edu
(Crystal) wrote:
> > The real gory stuff is underground/illegal.
>
> I'd have to check, but I don't think killing the fox is either underground
> or illegal.
It depends how they are killing it. There are some mildly enforced cruelty
laws in some states you know : )
> > Like dogfighting. That's not legal, but it goes on every day in South Miami.
>
> Sure. It goes on in Joe-Bob's garage every other Saturday night back
> home, too. Actually, I don't know anyone personally who does it, but I
> know it goes on.
I had a <gag> person try and buy one of my wolf-hybrid's pups for dogfighting.
One of his relatives contacted me and warned me what he wanted the dog
for, but t'shai, and I and the dog didn't like the guy anyway. But knowing
what he intended for her made me angrier than just thinking he was
ordinary slime.
> > I worked with a gentleman that liked to go shooting. He would occasionally
> > hunt deer, too. He had several surreptitious offers to go on fox hunts
> > (among other obnoxious things).
>
> Surreptitious? Around here if one wants to go foxhunting, one makes nice
> to the local Huntmaster and joins the local hunt club.
These weren't "approved" They were the kind where you get real boozed up
and torment a small trapped creature to death... not the kind where you
actually have to run after anything. Sometimes they liked to use
snowmobiles for winter fun.
That's another fun pastime... chasing down critters like foxes and coyotes
and whatever els eis there and running them over with your snowmobile.
Sometimes you can do it over and over for hours before the poor creature
is too exhausted to run or dies from shock or trauma.
Ask me why I am so misanthropic.
> > Only run till he goes to ground? That's not torment?
>
> Wrong word, perhaps. By the way, "go to ground" means he pops down into
> his hole, not that he collapses in exhaustion. Just in case that wasn't
> clear. It may be slightly on the cruel side, but come on... haven't you
> ever chased a chicken and laughed at its flapping and squawking?
No.
> Haven't
> you ever played spin-the-cat on a linoleum floor?
Only with a cat that thought it was fun.
> Haven't you ever
> tweaked some girl's ponytail till she ran away from you?
No.
I did torment an instructor till he had a nervous breakdown when I was
eleven. But he was a vicious little slime who provoked me.
Sorry. I just don't get any kicks out of tormenting things that have no
recourse.
Now there is a difference between teasing a cat and chasing a wild animal
for fun.
Howling Heart
cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
>In article <coyotee-2707...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
>coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>> In article <cvf2-25079...@128.253.82.212>, cv...@cornell.edu
>> (Crystal) wrote:
>>
>> > I note by the way that our experience stems from within the systems of
>> > different countries; if the foxhunting where you are differs from the
>> > foxhunting here in the States, please pardon my ignorance.
>>
>> Ummm... Crystal...
>>
>> You know... foxhunting here in the states is not all that different.
>I have no way of knowing that. Where is .se? Sweden? Unless it's a new
>denotation for Canada, I've never been there. I was merely trying *not*
>to assume I knew what things are like in some place I've never been.
Yep, Crystal. .se = Sweden.
Just to detail my experiences (without having participated myself)
about "mounted" foxhunting;
It doesn't exist in Sweden and as far as I know never had. I think
that goes for Norway (.no) and Denmark (.dk) as well.
However, a couple of years back, I lived in the UK, and my
girlfriend's brother at that time, tried very hard to enter certain
social circles (as part of his career move). Apart from his passion
for golf, I remember his satisfaction when he was invited to a foxhunt
to some manor near York. For a forthnight, we were taught everything
(wether we wanted to listen or not) about this "noble art".
So when I speak about foxhunt, I think of the Sasunnach/English
version, and at least compared to Sweden, IMHO it is a more
"segregated" society class-wise.
As for golf courses, weell..., I _am_ involved in the Deep Ecology
movement (like Earth First!) and monkeywrenching _is_ a part of my
toolkit... ;)
Skeezix88
In article <coyotee-2907...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) writes:
> It may be slightly on the cruel side, but come on... haven't you
>> ever chased a chicken and laughed at its flapping and squawking?
>
>No.
>
>> Haven't
>> you ever played spin-the-cat on a linoleum floor?
>
>Only with a cat that thought it was fun.
Wellnow, chicken-chasing I'm not *completely* innocent of... but I only
chased the fowl beast 'cause he got away. I certainly did *not* enjoy the
pursuit. "Spin-The-Cat-On-The-Linoleum-Floor" sounds like tremendous fun,
but I couldn't do it, tho a cat-lovin' friend of mine romps with his own
puss in such a fashion. (See my werecard [under "A New coyote from CA
bows"] for my feelings-in-general about cats)
>> Haven't you ever
>> tweaked some girl's ponytail till she ran away from you?
>No.
Nor I. Gotta agree, cruelty ain't fun, even in small harmless doses. I
have a feeling that most of us weres have had more than our share aimed
our way over the years.
As I've said before, I'm a scavenger, not much of a predator... and my
hunting instincts (such as they were) must have been dulled over the
years. "It's not the kill; it's the Thrill of the Chase" as the old Deep
Purple song goes... but not for me. My love life could never be described
as a "hunt and conquest" cycle, and I find no special thrill in Pursuit...
The Hunt... whatever. I believe in enjoying roads as much as
destinations, but... Guys, help me. I'm drowning in my own bad metaphors.
Skeezix88
In article <coyotee-2807...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) writes:
>> On 27 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
Here. Properly prepared by someone who (ew) knows how to cook human flesh
and make it 1) yummy (above all!), 2) healthful (I've heard it's not too
good for you; can't remember why. Unless the meal's loved ones getcha.),
and 3) cruelty-free. I might try dolphin-safe human. Meat's meat. By
the same token, I'd probably enjoy dog as well... though I begin to feel
that I'd sooner eat human. Now *that*, my friends, strikes me as weird.
Of all people in the world, though, you guys would understand. But
y'know... eating human implies a) you're eating someone who was raised to
be food, killed in their prime, and served under glass without a thought
about said someone's hopes and ambitions beyond being delicately prepared
and elegantly served; b) you're eating someone killed in an untimely
accident, who happens to be handy just as you begin to feel peckish; or c)
you're eating someone who's either sickened and died, or someone who
expired of old age... neither one of which sounds like tasty eating. I
guess option "b" is the only one we could use that wouldn't be either
yucky or rude. Although it might be both.
As for dogs... I love my dog, and she loves me. If I die first, I'd love
to be fed to her (preferably in small, unidentifiable bits... I wouldn't
want her to get a *taste* for human flesh, y'know. Most folk don't wanna
be eaten.). Just mix me up in her Ken-L-Ration. Similarly, I'd love for
her to live a long, rich life, and when she finally passes on, I just
might make a sandwich out of her. I don't feel the need to eat *all* of
her... it's more of a symbolic thing. Y'know, like eating the heart or
brain of a worthy (but obviously conquered) foe, to try and absorb said
foe's skill, prowess, wisdom, etc. However, the more I think on it, the
sillier the idea sounds. I don't think I'd gain anything by eating my
dog... certainly nothing like an innate car-chasing skill... it just
seems... well... proper. (!)
This sick, sick mind of mine first started seriously thinking about this
stuff not after watching Soylent Green (which wasn't a horror movie to
me... just good science fiction), but after my brother Craig died. He was
cremated some 4 years ago, and his ashes sat in a surprisingly small jug
for a year or two, until my mother got around to taking him up to Laguna
Beach for a proper scattering. (Fear not, beachgoers... he's long since
blown away.) I never brought it up with the family (for marvelously
obvious reasons), but I always thought 'twould have been fitting to make a
tea of Craig's ashes (with Earl Grey mixed in... Craig wasn't stuffy, but
he *did* have great... er... taste), and pass 'round the pot to all the
family members, that we all might carry some of him in us for awhile. If
you can get past the obvious ickiness of the whole idea, it's a lovely
concept. It would never fly here, tho... not even in Tolerant California.
While I'm birdwalking all over the damn newsgroup... and while we're sorta
on the subject... can anyone tell me where it's legal to get buried on
one's own property? I don't want to be cremated, nor planted in some
boneyard around stiffs I never met. I wanna establish a family crypt or
something. I want to be buried underneath a tree that *I* planted, on
*my* property (which is just as well... how many of you want me buried in
*your* local cemetery? How many of you want me buried in *any*
cemetery... as long as it's soon? ;^) Man, this is creepy.)
Sorry, guys. I will absolutely never be this morbid again on this
newsgroup.
If I can help it.
Julie Heckman
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>This one's different though... you know those really ugly and tastless ads
>for GAY/BI PPHONE SEXXX!!!!! that appear in some papers and magazines? You
>know... the ones that have little ballons strategically placed over the
>man's genitals that say "ONLY XX Cents a minute!"
>
>I make those.
You must be so proud. :) Better than mine, though; I work for a
public library... You'd never guess the strange things that go on
there.
Morris
In <N.072396....@nor-la4-10.ix.netcom.com> Hugy...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>What really gets my hackles raised is when a typical hunter says they hunt
><generic herbivore> to keep it from overpopulating. I usually remind him
>(notice how hunters are almost invariably male) if he and his ancestors hadn't
>killed off every natural predator in the area larger than a housecat, the
>predators would be keeping the herbivores in check, not him.
>
>I almost start foaming at the mouth when I also point out to would-be hunters
>that humans almost never killed these predators for food. My Louisiana history
>teacher spoke of the activity in the 18th and 19th century called
>'Bear-baiting', where a bear was captured and chained to a stake. Then the
>hosts of this entertainment would start siccing dogs on them until the bear
>tired, and the dogs would tear the exhausted bear to pieces. This was a popular
>form of public entertainment, folks! No wonder most hunters make me
feel ill. :P
Good points. . .what I find repulsive are so-called "canned hunts." How
anyone can believe that's a "spoort" is beyond me. . .
>> --
>Jeff Ruppel
>A.K.A.: HuggyWolf, Unity
>E-mail: Hugy...@ix.netcom.com
>
GreyFox
Zepp
In article <coyotee-2707...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>> Does that apply to the long pig, too, cousin? <evil grin>
>
>Of course!
>
>Well... depends on the individual long pig.
>
>I like to think that making fertilizer out of them is also adding to the
>natural cycles. : )=
>
>But why not?
>
>Hey! That's a good rousing question!
>
>Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
>
>Coyote
Hmm! I would, I suppose, if it was that or die of starvation, cos there was
nothing else to eat. Probably taste pretty gross though -- lookat all the
crap most humans eat (well, okay, and some of us weres, too -- I never could
resist a Dorito! ;-)
But if I found myself in a Donner party type situation, yeah, I expect I
would eat human. Lady avert misfortune, may it never come to that. But
death is a lot worse, IMHO...
Oddly enough, what gives me pause is the idea of eating wolf! <grin> But
again, I suppose that if the brother was already dead, and I *needed* food
that bad, I could do it -- but I'd feel awfully damned guilty.
So ok, I'm sick. This is news? <BSEG>
Greywolf the Wanderer, borrowing zepp's account
Ysengrin Werewolf
On 29 Jul 1996 15:35:26 -0400, skee...@aol.com (Skeezix88) wrote:
>In article <coyotee-2807...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
>coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) writes:
>
>>> On 27 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
I'd eat long pork before eating dog (or other canid). It would still
need to be either a matter of survival or respect (don't ask - it came
up in a conversation with a friend a long time ago).
>While I'm birdwalking all over the damn newsgroup... and while we're sorta
>on the subject... can anyone tell me where it's legal to get buried on
>one's own property?
Texas. As I understand it, the coffin is optional although embalming
isn't.
--
Ysengrin Werewolf (AKA Silvermane), Verdun Manor Pack
http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html
Spyder Witiko
> Rorschach <o...@efn.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 27 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Who here would eat a human, and if so, under what circumstances?
> >
> > think that the final thing that we came up with was that if hungry enough
> > both of us would be perfectly willing to eat humans, but neither of us
> > would be willing to go out and activly kill people for food. (So I'm a
> > coyote, i'm s'posed to scavenge)
When I'm outta cash, and/or been going a few days without much food - or
food at all! - I notice that I start looking at people on the street a
little... I guess a little more outta the corners of my eye, sizing them
up for nutritional value. <grin> Surprise anyone at all?
Crystal
In article <coyotee-2907...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>I had a <gag> person try and buy one of my wolf-hybrid's pups for dogfighting.
>One of his relatives contacted me and warned me what he wanted the dog
>for, but t'shai, and I and the dog didn't like the guy anyway. But knowing
>what he intended for her made me angrier than just thinking he was
>ordinary slime.
The only actual dogfighting I've ever seen was on an anti-dogfighting
video that was shown to me in college. It was pretty repulsive--I don't
know if it was completely accurate, but knowing the nature of dogs, I tend
to believe that it was. The owners of the dogs turned them into
"fighters" through gross abuse: starving them, beating them, confining
them, giving them food and freedom only as reward for aggression. It was
disgusting.
>> Surreptitious? Around here if one wants to go foxhunting, one makes nice
>> to the local Huntmaster and joins the local hunt club.
>
>These weren't "approved" They were the kind where you get real boozed up
>and torment a small trapped creature to death... not the kind where you
>actually have to run after anything. Sometimes they liked to use
>snowmobiles for winter fun.
<sigh> The one and only time I agreed to go out with my friend dawn and
her boyfriend in high school, he tried to run down a cat with his car.
Fucker. I'm still pissed and that was at least 8 years ago.
>Now there is a difference between teasing a cat and chasing a wild animal
>for fun.
In article <4tida9$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, skee...@aol.com
(Skeezix88) wrote:
>Wellnow, chicken-chasing I'm not *completely* innocent of... but I only
>chased the fowl beast 'cause he got away. I certainly did *not* enjoy the
>pursuit.
So it's ok to chase a chicken if it's gotten away or if it's in your
flower bed, but it's not ok to think its squawking and flapping are funny
in the process? I've chased plenty of chickens in my lifetime, having
raised them for years, and though I never chased them just for the hell of
it, I did think they were pretty funny-looking and -sounding as I tried to
herd the damned things into the henhouse so the coons wouldn't get them at
night. I *did* get a certain enjoyment out of it.
I can't say I enjoyed helping Mom slaughter them--but I sure enjoyed
eating them.
Don't you think wolves, cats, bears and other predators enjoy chasing
their prey? Do you deny your were sides that same enjoyment? Or are your
wolves and cats and bears and so on so humanized that they can't feel that
excitement?
Crystal
Crystal
In article <4ti02m$5...@epimetheus.algonet.se>, ed...@algonet.se (Howling
Heart) wrote:
>So when I speak about foxhunt, I think of the Sasunnach/English
>version, and at least compared to Sweden, IMHO it is a more
>"segregated" society class-wise.
Hmm... ok. I think it's a far less elite activity here in the States.
Crystal
Coyote Osborne
In article <4thfmc$c...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
morr...@ix.netcom.com(Morris) wrote:
> >form of public entertainment, folks! No wonder most hunters make me
> feel ill. :P
>
> Good points. . .what I find repulsive are so-called "canned hunts." How
> anyone can believe that's a "spoort" is beyond me. . .
People used to think that starving lions and throwing them in an arena
with a terrified petty criminal or slave was a great "sport" in Rome.
Or handing a net and trident to Joe Nobody in the gladiatorial arena, then
putting him up against a professional gladiator that was well-armed and
armored, so the latter could take the former slowly apart.
Great "sport".
: b
Coyote Osborne
In article <cvf2-30079...@128.253.82.212>, cv...@cornell.edu
(Crystal) wrote:
> So it's ok to chase a chicken if it's gotten away or if it's in your
> flower bed, but it's not ok to think its squawking and flapping are funny
> in the process?
> night. I *did* get a certain enjoyment out of it.
>
> I can't say I enjoyed helping Mom slaughter them--but I sure enjoyed
> eating them.
>
> Don't you think wolves, cats, bears and other predators enjoy chasing
> their prey? Do you deny your were sides that same enjoyment? Or are your
> wolves and cats and bears and so on so humanized that they can't feel that
> excitement?
Hmmm...
touche'
Yes... it's fun to chase one's prey. It's exhilarating to stalk, run,
catch and pounce... it is, IMHO, life-affirming (if you are doing it to
live).
I just don't chase things just to be mean, that's all.
You ought to enjoy the chase, certainly, if you're going to chase.
Why be somber about something that you do to live?
I just don't like teasing things... the ones being teased generally do not
get so much enjoyment out of it.
But you know... a certain amount of teasing DOES go on in the animal
world... Coyotes (and other canids) canids chase birds, Ravens and crows
harrass canids and vultures (ana anyone else they can get away with <G>)
Zepp
In article <cvf2-28079...@128.253.45.53>,
cv...@cornell.edu (Crystal) wrote:
>In article <coyotee-2707...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
>coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
(snip)
>> You know... foxhunting here in the states is not all that different.
>
>I have no way of knowing that. Where is .se? Sweden? Unless it's a new
>denotation for Canada, I've never been there. I was merely trying *not*
>to assume I knew what things are like in some place I've never been.
>
>From another post:
>
>> > There are also plenty of fox hunts where either the fox is chased only
>> > until he goes to ground or the hounds run down a scent that is laid
>> > beforehand via a drag: no fox tormented at all.
>>
>
>Wrong word, perhaps. By the way, "go to ground" means he pops down into
>his hole, not that he collapses in exhaustion. Just in case that wasn't
>ever chased a chicken and laughed at its flapping and squawking? Haven't
>you ever played spin-the-cat on a linoleum floor? Haven't you ever
>tweaked some girl's ponytail till she ran away from you? How is this any
>different? My cat survived being Moria's first-year vet school Physical
>Exam subject without developing any new neuroses. <shrug> 'Tis life.
>
>Crystal
"Spin-the-cat"?? Hee, hee!! We used to play a game called spin the kitty
-- it worked thusly: feet in bed, under LOTS of blankets (important to
prevent bleeding to death! ;-). Wiggle feet; kitten chases and pounces,
round, and round, and ... like that, till he gets dizzy and flops down on
top on feet. Lots of giggles, for him and for us!
Also accidentally got our chickens drunk one summer. First time making
wine, and mom put the mash in a pan for the chickens when she was done with
it. Oy, thirty-two drunk chickens, all trying to climb into the bowl for a
drink of water, all at once! We laughed so hard we nearly had to change our
shorts! Mind you, we didn't do it again, cos she figured it might do them
harm. But it *was* funny as hell!
All that aside, I must admit, it would never occur to me to hunt foxes.
They are the little brothers-in-fur... My personal attitude towards hunting
is, prey animals only. I would only kill a fellow predator if it was to
save me from being killed (or, to protect one of my pack). The old guy I
work for says this makes me a wimp, and I just grinned at him. I follow MY
Path, not his or anyone else's...
Deer, OTOH, are DELICIOUS!! <slurp, smack, drool>
Greywolf the Wanderer, borrowing zepp's account (and eagerly awaiting deer
season)
-------------------------------------------------
Seegfile? I don' need no steenkin' seegfile, I'm not humanale!
Elf Sternberg
In article <jinx6568-120...@pm1a11.bratt.sover.net>
jinx...@sover.net (Chris Johnson) writes:
> As far as reading more than one, Elf, ya gotta understand your fans are
>major fans ;) I have often had furries insisting that I check out this JE
>or that JE. Particularly as I learned about BDSM and tried to understand
>it, I would be referred to a Journal Entry. It seems you write the bible
>on furry sexuality
Considering that some people want to make "furriness" a
"lifestyle" like there's a "homosexual lifestyle" or whatever, I'm not
so sure that's a compliment. Furriness, were-trends and all the rest
for me have always been means to an end; using furries allowed me to
create characters that you could distance yourself from ("they're not
human") long enough for me to give them personas you really wanted to
like. I've always liked them for the neophiliac qualities (they're
different, in a touchable way) but I wouldn't want to build an entire
life around that. Humans have the highly desirable quality of being
available, after all.
> I tend to feel alienated from the lifestyle your characters lead- my
>characters are in some ways much tamer though as I have learned I find
>characters appearing who do _not_ share my prudish moralities and demand
>to be taken on their own terms.
True. You can read what you enjoy and reject what you don't;
nobody forces me to watch Married With Children (a fact for which I am
eternally grateful!) and I don't expect others to "have" to read my
stuff.
I think the interesting aspect to your trouble with BDSM,
especially in conjunction with the story "Anger," is that for a while in
my late 20's my life was a lot like that. It still is, although right
now I don't have anyone to play with at quite the intensity that I did
back then. It's not that I've been a swinger (I haven't) or a free-love
type. But I do value the lessons I've learned through my going through
BDSM. It's interesting that this conversation is happening, albeit
slowly, on a werewolf-related newsgroup. Werewolves, more than most
other fiction with the possible exception of vampires, have always
seemed to me to be the group most in-tune with the spritual journeys
related to BDSM.
Sure, there are a lot of furries dressing up because it's
frightening to the horses (an obscure, non-furry reference. Don't worry
about it). If you've ever met me, you know I don't dress up. I wear
jeans and comfortable shirts and a good pair of shoes. I have one
earring and I've had it since long before it became a fad. Normal.
Not out to frighten the mundanes or the horses.
Trying to understand "BDSM" is a lot less complex than trying to
understand the people who do SM or their reasons for being involved in
it. Some people, especially last year when "girls in dominatrix
outfits" was listed as a "fashion trend" in the Wall Street Journal,
wear this stuff just to shock people. And others don't wear it
outwardly but inwardly-- it's their journey.
Elf !!!
Elf Sternberg I'm not inclined to write pompous
e...@halcyon.com books about unanswerable questions.
Public key available That strikes me as a tremendous waste
http://www.halcyon.com/elf of time.
- Stephen Jay Gould
Rorschach
On 31 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
> I just don't like teasing things... the ones being teased generally do not
> get so much enjoyment out of it.
>
> But you know... a certain amount of teasing DOES go on in the animal
> world... Coyotes (and other canids) canids chase birds, Ravens and crows
> harrass canids and vultures (ana anyone else they can get away with <G>)
Teasing and harrasment are not bad things given two conditions.
1: It's going both directions. If it is only going one way that someone
is being picked on
2: The people involved know when to stop. Generally when things go from
light fun to serious or emotions (anger) get into the act.
. . Rorschach
| \ / |
|/ """ \? A stark pattern of Black and White
//,\ /,\\ Within it you can find images, reflections. Maybe Balance.
\ |_| / I walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
`=' "NOW is the time to RAGE against the dying of the light!"
Rorschach
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Shuck wrote:
> >A friend and I had a long discussion about this quite a while ago. I
> >think that the final thing that we came up with was that if hungry enough
> >both of us would be perfectly willing to eat humans, but neither of us
> >would be willing to go out and activly kill people for food. (So I'm a
> >coyote, i'm s'posed to scavenge)
>
> If there was nothing else to eat, then I'd not have much hesitation
> about taking a chunk or two out of a human. Does anyone know how
> humans are supposed to taste like? I heard it was like a slightly
> sweeter version of pork.
Apparently they are supposed to taste almost exactly like pork (now you
see why pork is such a popular meat) but westerners taste somewhat salty.
Rorschach
On 31 Jul 1996, Coyote Osborne wrote:
> What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many are
> satisfied with doing it?
>
> How many of us are living, and how many just surviving/existing.
Currently am surviving, but have an end in sight to it.
I just recently got a job doing tech support, and though it is not a job
that I mind, it is certainly not a job that I like. What having the job
will do though is let me pay off my credit cards and get some money saved
up so that I can rebuild the insides of a van to live in and get some
jewlry stock built up.
By next year I should be supporting myself either by making jewelry and
other crafts or by doing home assembly of some sort of geegahs. Big
advantage to either one is that they don't tie me to any particular
location in the country or work hours in the day. So if I want to drive
to Arizona to visit my half brother and the weres there, all I have to do
is get in my house and drive there. If I like the people there, I can stay
for as long as I want and move on when I want to visit someone else. (If
I am doing the home assembly stuff, I have to stay long enough in each
location for the latest order of peices to get to me, but that is not
much of a problem)
Chris Johnson
In article <4tnqmq$d...@news1.halcyon.com>, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
wrote:
Wow. Cool. I thought I wasn't going to hear back from Elf- I'm psyched
to. Onward.
> In article <jinx6568-120...@pm1a11.bratt.sover.net>
> jinx...@sover.net (Chris Johnson) writes:
> > As far as reading more than one, Elf, ya gotta understand your fans are
> >major fans ;) I have often had furries insisting that I check out this JE
> >or that JE. Particularly as I learned about BDSM and tried to understand
> >it, I would be referred to a Journal Entry. It seems you write the bible
> >on furry sexuality
> Considering that some people want to make "furriness" a
> "lifestyle" like there's a "homosexual lifestyle" or whatever, I'm not
> so sure that's a compliment. Furriness, were-trends and all the rest
> for me have always been means to an end; using furries allowed me to
> create characters that you could distance yourself from ("they're not
> human") long enough for me to give them personas you really wanted to
> like. I've always liked them for the neophiliac qualities (they're
> different, in a touchable way) but I wouldn't want to build an entire
> life around that. Humans have the highly desirable quality of being
> available, after all.
*grin* well, I'll gladly grant you the distance from being Ye Grand
Leader Of The Furry Lifestyle ;) sounds reasonable to me. Several artist
types on a.f.f have taken to distancing themselves from the constant
flamage and warfare- I too see 'furries' as a means to an end, though I am
more likely to identify with them (well, the felines ;) ) than I am with
straight human characters.
As far as building a life around that- I prefer to build a life around
me. Which includes some quirks and idiosyncracies, but that doesn't mean I
need to Belong to a Furry Fandom in the capitalized sense ;) or a
were-pack, for that matter.
> > I tend to feel alienated from the lifestyle your characters lead- my
> >characters are in some ways much tamer though as I have learned I find
> >characters appearing who do _not_ share my prudish moralities and demand
> >to be taken on their own terms.
> True. You can read what you enjoy and reject what you don't;
> nobody forces me to watch Married With Children (a fact for which I am
> eternally grateful!) and I don't expect others to "have" to read my
> stuff.
> I think the interesting aspect to your trouble with BDSM,
> especially in conjunction with the story "Anger," is that for a while in
> my late 20's my life was a lot like that. It still is, although right
> now I don't have anyone to play with at quite the intensity that I did
> back then. It's not that I've been a swinger (I haven't) or a free-love
> type. But I do value the lessons I've learned through my going through
> BDSM. It's interesting that this conversation is happening, albeit
> slowly, on a werewolf-related newsgroup. Werewolves, more than most
> other fiction with the possible exception of vampires, have always
> seemed to me to be the group most in-tune with the spritual journeys
> related to BDSM.
*nod* we all have our journeys. I didn't go through BDSM- my journey
was through drug addiction and insanity and then recovery and
not-insanity. I'm still journeying, in my own way. What other way _can_
one journey? :)
Werewolves have struck me as being very in tune with the alienation I
have lived with and have learned to grow past. I've found them to be more
in touch with the stark power of feelings and the need for honest coping
than some other furry sorts are.
*grin* yes, this conversation _is_ happening slowly, but I'm enjoying
it anyway.
> Sure, there are a lot of furries dressing up because it's
> frightening to the horses (an obscure, non-furry reference. Don't worry
> about it). If you've ever met me, you know I don't dress up. I wear
> jeans and comfortable shirts and a good pair of shoes. I have one
> earring and I've had it since long before it became a fad. Normal.
> Not out to frighten the mundanes or the horses.
That's cool- in a lot of ways _I_ am a mundane :) talking to you, I get
the feeling that if I ever _did_ meet you you'd be easy to get along with.
Reading your stories I've sometimes been too disconcerted to feel that
way- but I was told by a furry fan that in your stories it is your
_characters_ talking, and I can understand that. Perhaps if I met some of
your _characters_ RL I would be uncomfortable. :)
> Trying to understand "BDSM" is a lot less complex than trying to
> understand the people who do SM or their reasons for being involved in
> it. Some people, especially last year when "girls in dominatrix
> outfits" was listed as a "fashion trend" in the Wall Street Journal,
> wear this stuff just to shock people. And others don't wear it
> outwardly but inwardly-- it's their journey.
*nod* agreed- I do try and understand both BDSM and the people who are
involved in it. It can be fascinating and unexpected- I'd never heard of a
'thudding flogger' until I sat in on one such discussion. While my journey
does not seem to include such things, I feel it is good for me to
understand- and so I, stumbling, cautious, make the effort.
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
ShadowFox
> > So it's ok to chase a chicken if it's gotten away or if it's in your
> > flower bed, but it's not ok to think its squawking and flapping are funny
> > in the process?
Durn, I missed the beginning. But I just had to comment on this <sly
grin>
Way, way, way before I knew myself Fox I was staying at a friends farm.
My friend Phillip and I both spent hours and hours chasing the chickens,
catching them all, then letting them back out so we could chase and catch
them again. It was the literal Fox in the Hen house and it was
extrodinarily exciting. Seeing them run away only made me want to chase
them ::drool::
And for the record I really to like chicken and other poultry ::slurp::
::wet nose in your ear::
ShadowFox
Spyder Witiko
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960731...@garcia.efn.org>,
Rorschach <o...@efn.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Shuck wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know how
> > humans are supposed to taste like? I heard it was like a slightly
> > sweeter version of pork.
>
> Apparently they are supposed to taste almost exactly like pork (now you
> see why pork is such a popular meat) but westerners taste somewhat salty.
Someone famous once said:
"Ah, the poor pig: fated to taste like human flesh, and have no hands to
defend themselves with..."
... or something along those lines... maybe I can find the quote again...
Skeezix88
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960731...@garcia.efn.org>,
Rorschach <o...@efn.org> writes:
<snip>
> but westerners taste somewhat salty.
>
>
Hmmm. I wonder who was the Comparative Gourmet there.
"Well, Paul, you have Leg of Mongol on one plate, and Texan Rump on the
other. Can you tell which is which?"
"Surely, Jasper. The plate on the left has that salty Western tang to
it... with a hint of BBQ sauce. Can't be confused with the Mongol at
all."
Where do we come up with these things?
Coyote Osborne
In article <31fcc64...@news3.cts.com>, er...@cts.com (Julie Heckman) wrote:
> coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> >know... the ones that have little ballons strategically placed over the
> >man's genitals that say "ONLY XX Cents a minute!"
> >
> >I make those.
>
> You must be so proud. :) Better than mine, though; I work for a
> public library... You'd never guess the strange things that go on
> there.
Oh terribly!
So... what goes on in a library? <dreadfully curious! <grin>>
This makes me think of something....
What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many are
satisfied with doing it?
How many of us are living, and how many just surviving/existing.
Coyote
Skeezix88
In article <4tkjk1$j...@news.snowcrest.net>, ze...@snowcrest.net (Zepp)
writes:
>Oddly enough, what gives me pause is the idea of eating wolf! <grin> But
>again, I suppose that if the brother was already dead, and I *needed*
food
>that bad, I could do it -- but I'd feel awfully damned guilty.
>
>
Which makes *me* wonder... if I was accepted by a wolfpack, and all of us
were hungry, and *I* died... would they eat me? I would hope so. Would
they feel guilty? Well, if they ate me, then I doubt they'd hesitate.
Hey guys, *do* starving wolves eat each other? Only outside of their
pack? Anyone know?
And would a starving wolf hesitate to eat a human... even one it came to
trust?
Coyote Osborne
> Nor I. Gotta agree, cruelty ain't fun, even in small harmless doses. I
> have a feeling that most of us weres have had more than our share aimed
> our way over the years.
Now for me...
I will not say that I have no place for cruelty.
I think that in certain circumstances, I could be very cruel.
But not to some helpless creature, just for fun.
If I could go back in time and catch old Andrew Jackson...
I would be VERY cruel to him, the genocidal monster.
But I am what you call a "bitter spirit".
But to me... cruelty is not entertainment. Why would you be cruel to
something... hurt it for fun? Something that has done you no harm? I
cannot fathom it.
Cruelty is a creation of primates, I think. I don't even think cats
playing with their food quite have it down even.
> As I've said before, I'm a scavenger, not much of a predator... and my
> hunting instincts (such as they were) must have been dulled over the
> years. "It's not the kill; it's the Thrill of the Chase" as the old Deep
> Purple song goes... but not for me. My love life could never be described
> as a "hunt and conquest" cycle, and I find no special thrill in Pursuit...
> The Hunt... whatever. I believe in enjoying roads as much as
> destinations, but... Guys, help me. I'm drowning in my own bad metaphors.
Tosses a "life preserver" to the "Drowning" critter.
<grin>
Coyote Osborne
In article <4tn0oq$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, skee...@aol.com
(Skeezix88) wrote:
> Which makes *me* wonder... if I was accepted by a wolfpack, and all of us
> were hungry, and *I* died... would they eat me? I would hope so. Would
> they feel guilty? Well, if they ate me, then I doubt they'd hesitate.
> Hey guys, *do* starving wolves eat each other? Only outside of their
> pack? Anyone know?
I dunno about wolves... but some coyotes will eat deceased relatives.
Dead is dead, I guess.
As a rule of thumb, most predators do not eat other predators (except in
unusual circumstances). Predators taste bad. Especially cats.
Omnivores taste okay. Herbivores usually taste the best. IMHO of course.
Also, just as a funny, most predatory critters will not eat humans. Until
they are "ripe" anyway. There have been reports of wolves digging up
shallow graves and eating humans, but not much about most critters eatign
them fresh.
> And would a starving wolf hesitate to eat a human... even one it came to
> trust?
I doubt the wolf would attack the human, especially one it loved/trusted.
But when yer hungry... food is food. If a creature is starving and it
finds something it can eat, it usually eats.
For the record, wolves (and lotsa predators) have certain "signals" that
they get from prey that seem to govern what they will hunt. Humans do not
send out the signals that mean they are food, so I doubt they get treated
as such.
Unless they are dead.
I ave heard that bears have no real qualms about killing or eating humans.
Under the right circumstances, anyway.
Coyote
--
---
Coyote Osborne;1085 NE 179 Terrace;North Miami Beach, FL 33162
email: coy...@miami.mindspring.com
Spyder Witiko
In article <coyotee-3007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many are
> satisfied with doing it?
I work for an ISP... it's pretty damn cool: I get to play on the Net an
awful lot, although I do occasionally work. <grin>
> How many of us are living, and how many just surviving/existing.
I haven't really felt like I've been living for many years... and after my
Awakening I know why. Working in the human world, wearing the mask and
pretending to be one of the herd - that's all just survival to me.
When I can get away, alone in the mountains, drinking in all the beauty
and cruelty of nature... those are the times when I feel alive...
Crystal
> "Spin-the-cat"?? Hee, hee!! We used to play a game called spin the kitty
> -- it worked thusly: feet in bed, under LOTS of blankets (important to
> prevent bleeding to death! ;-). Wiggle feet; kitten chases and pounces,
> round, and round, and ... like that, till he gets dizzy and flops down on
> top on feet. Lots of giggles, for him and for us!
Oh, no, That's not "spin-the-cat," that's "The Thing Under The Blanket."
Here's how you play spin-the-cat:
1. Find a good-natured cat
2. Find a linoleum floor
3. Put the good-natured cat on the linoleum floor :)
4. Sit down beside the cat
5. Place your hand gently against the cat's abdomen
6. Spin the cat in circles till his eyes cross
7. Stand the cat up on his paws and watch him try to walk
*giggle*
There's a variant of this that Puck and I enjoy sometimes as well: Lace
your fingers together across his chest, below his forelegs, with his back
to you and his hind paws dangling. Stand in the middle of the room. Spin
in circles till you get dizzy. Put the cat down and watch him try to
walk. Try not to fall on top of him.
Heh-heh.
Crystal
Crystal
In article <coyotee-3007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
> What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many are
> satisfied with doing it?
I'm a histology technician at Cornell University's et school. A lowly lab
slave. Basically that means that if your pet/livestock/lab animal has a
tumor, the vet cuts it off or takes a biopsy of it and sends it to me and
I turn it into microscope slides for the vet pathologists to look at so
they can tell you what kind of tumor it is. I also make slides of
miscellaneous bits of dead animals so they can determine what the animals
died from. It's not terribly exciting and I work too closely with other
humans for my liking sometimes, but the work itself is tolerable. It's
not what i plan to do forever, but at the moment I don't have any better
ideas.
> How many of us are living, and how many just surviving/existing.
A little bit of both, I think. On days when all I do is hit the snooze
twelve times, rush to shower and get to work, suffer through an
interminable day there, go home, eat dinner, pay the bills and go to
bed... that's surviving.
When I'm out in the woods or traveling and exploring or sharing
experiences with loved ones or writing insightful things or watching a
play or having a good orgasm or playing with my cat or whatever... then I
think I'm living, at least a little.
Crystal
Crystal
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960731...@garcia.efn.org>,
Rorschach <o...@efn.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Shuck wrote:
Does anyone know how
> > humans are supposed to taste like? I heard it was like a slightly
> > sweeter version of pork.
>
> Apparently they are supposed to taste almost exactly like pork (now you
> see why pork is such a popular meat) but westerners taste somewhat salty.
The most cannibalistic thing I've done is chew (and swallow) my hangnails
and little loose bits of skin around healing wounds... but those taste
very sweet, not at all like pork...
Crystal
Endymion Twofox
Well, this is very interesting, reminds me of "Alive" but as much as it
sickens me, I would indeed eat another human only after they had died, I could
not and would not take anothers life, except in certin times <ie: war, life or
death, defending my family> then I'd kill. Also I am reminded of that fighter
pilot who crash in the middle east I belive it was, and he had to eat bugs and
such to stay alive. So, I'd pretty much eat anything to keep myself alive,
even dogs, cats, wolves, and foxes. Though I've heard fox tastes rather
disgusting.
Porf, I'm posting a LOT aren't I?
Yips,
Endymion Twofox
Zepp
In article <coyotee-3007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>> your wolves and cats and bears and so on so humanized that they can't
>
>Hmmm...
>
>touche'
>
>Yes... it's fun to chase one's prey. It's exhilarating to stalk, run,
>catch and pounce... it is, IMHO, life-affirming (if you are doing it to
>live).
>
>I just don't chase things just to be mean, that's all.
>
>You ought to enjoy the chase, certainly, if you're going to chase.
>
>Why be somber about something that you do to live?
>
>get so much enjoyment out of it.
>
>But you know... a certain amount of teasing DOES go on in the animal
>world... Coyotes (and other canids) canids chase birds, Ravens and crows
>harrass canids and vultures (ana anyone else they can get away with <G>)
>
Boy, ain't THAT the truth!! In the springtime, the blue jays around here
make Monk's life a misery. He's a Samoyed, and blows his coat every spring.
The jays divebomb him, and fly away with big puffs of white fur clutched in
their claws, then sit up in the trees and laugh at him.
He, in turn, teases the cats. He'll lie there, pretending to be asleep,
till some cat walks right in front of his nose, whereupon the eyes snap
open, and a bog colld wet nose goes where it'll do the most good, followed
by a very loud "Whuff!" Cat inflates, hisses, and vanishes. We all fall
down laughing!
Zepp
In article <coyotee-3007...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many are
>satisfied with doing it?
>
>
I'm lucky; these days I'm mostly living rather than just surviving. I am
lucky enough to be living in a house I'm slowly paying for, in a town I
love, in a place where the countryside is all around me, the air is clean,
and the water actually tastes GOOD! Mind you, there's not a lot of either
work or money around here -- $7 an hour is a pretty good wage, almost
median, I guess. Bit it's okay -- the stress level is so much lower, it's
amazing.
I look after an old guy here, used to look after his wife, too, until she
died. I play out in his yard, and get paid for it, do odd jobs, split and
stack wood, and have some righteous rip-roaring arguments with him, all of
which I get paid for. And when there's nothing to do in the winter, and he
sleep, I get paid to sit by the woodstove and dream, and write. And shovel
snow, but that's okay. So I feel pretty lucky!
Greywolf the Wanderer, borrowing zepp's account, retired from the ratrace,
hopefully for good.
Zepp
Zepp
In article <coyotee-0108...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>I dunno about wolves... but some coyotes will eat deceased relatives.
>Dead is dead, I guess.
>
>As a rule of thumb, most predators do not eat other predators (except in
>unusual circumstances). Predators taste bad. Especially cats.
>
>Omnivores taste okay. Herbivores usually taste the best. IMHO of course.
>
>Also, just as a funny, most predatory critters will not eat humans. Until
>they are "ripe" anyway. There have been reports of wolves digging up
>shallow graves and eating humans, but not much about most critters eatign
>them fresh.
>
>> And would a starving wolf hesitate to eat a human... even one it came to
>> trust?
>
>I doubt the wolf would attack the human, especially one it loved/trusted.
>
>But when yer hungry... food is food. If a creature is starving and it
>finds something it can eat, it usually eats.
>
>For the record, wolves (and lotsa predators) have certain "signals" that
>they get from prey that seem to govern what they will hunt. Humans do not
>send out the signals that mean they are food, so I doubt they get treated
>as such.
The exception, of course, being stupid humans who scream and run away, like
the jogging woman who was killed by a cougar last year, near Sacramento.
Not only did she run once, but after being pounced on, she got up and ran
away again! Naturally, the cat pounced on her, broke her neck, and started
munching. Duh... Me, I grew up in the mountains. Along with being taught
where rattlers hang out, and how to avoid same, I was taught that when
confronted by a cat, make yourself as big, nasty and loud as possible, and
the cat will bail out and look for easier prey. Have met up with several
bobcats over the years, and at least one cougar (that I *saw*), and never
had any trouble. But then again, I'm a predator, and I *act* like one.
<grin>
>Unless they are dead.
>
>I ave heard that bears have no real qualms about killing or eating humans.
>Under the right circumstances, anyway.
Depends on the bear. Brother grizz thinks humans are real tasty.
Brown/black bears, as a rule, don't hassle us. Exception being, if yer
stupid enough to get between momma bear and cubs -- hit the dirt, play dead,
and pray like a sumbitch. You might make it, if she's feeling mellow that
day. And polar bears thing we're YUMMY! Then again, they aren't really
bears; more like a ten-foot long mink with a SERIOUS attitude problem.
<brrr! No thanks>
>Coyote
Jeff Ruppel
On 8/3/96 10:52AM, in message <4u06na$7...@news.snowcrest.net>, Zepp
<ze...@snowcrest.net> wrote:
> In article <coyotee-0108...@news.miami.mindspring.com>,
> coy...@mail.miami.mindspring.com (Coyote Osborne) wrote:
>
<CHOMPED for brevity>
> >
> >I ave heard that bears have no real qualms about killing or eating humans.
> >Under the right circumstances, anyway.
>
> Depends on the bear. Brother grizz thinks humans are real tasty.
> Brown/black bears, as a rule, don't hassle us. Exception being, if yer
> stupid enough to get between momma bear and cubs -- hit the dirt, play dead,
> and pray like a sumbitch. You might make it, if she's feeling mellow that
> day. And polar bears thing we're YUMMY! Then again, they aren't really
> bears; more like a ten-foot long mink with a SERIOUS attitude problem.
> <brrr! No thanks>
>
I recall a friend of mine describing a scene from "Faces of Death". It was a
video recording of some guy at a park trying to feed a sanwich to a grizzly
bear, shouting "C'mere bar!"
Silly human!
Let's just say that the bear found something more sustantial to eat, and the
guy found a way to get close to the bear.
You can't get closer to someone than in inside them! <evil grin>
Expressing some of his more twisted thoughts,
--
Jeff Ruppel
A.K.A.: HuggyWolf, Unity
E-mail: Hugy...@ix.netcom.com
MegaDog the Nettweiler
Hmmm... i've eaten a lot of strange things in my life, but somehow I don't
think i could bring myself to eat dog-flesh... canines are my friends and
lovers; to eat them, well, that would count as cannibalism.
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
Life Rule #1: Never eat someone you cannot positively identify.
Guardian
*UNLESS* the cat claws or pounces you before you're finished...
;-> <POUNCE, POUNCE, POUNCE, POUNCE, POUNCE, HISS, SCREETCH, CLAW,
giggle> Not to mention pulling a Dorothy Jane... ('Tinkle Bell
Doesn't *LIVE* here anymore!') <G> Seriously, tho. I have to wonder
what cats would say about said activities if indeed they could talk...
~ Guardian ~
--
.oooO "Man with closed Oooo. Rick C. Niess
( ) mouth gathers ( ) University of Southern Miss.
\ ( no foot!" ) / rni...@ocean.st.usm.edu
--\_)------------------(_/-------------------------------
Coyote Osborne
In article <837cc$d2d3...@news.csra.net>, no...@yourbuisness.com
(Endymion Twofox) wrote:
> I could
> not and would not take anothers life, except in certin times <ie: war,
life or
> death, defending my family>
War would not be a good reason for me.
I have a problem with killing folks because someone else says that I have to.
I think that if you kill someone because you are told to, rather than
because you have a good reason of your own, that it's the worst kind of
killing... it's not cold blood... it's not hot blood...
Coyote Osborne
> The exception, of course, being stupid humans who scream and run away, like
> the jogging woman who was killed by a cougar last year, near Sacramento.
Oops. Well... yep. I should have saifd that humans don't _Usually_ act
like somethign good to eat.
> Not only did she run once, but after being pounced on, she got up and ran
> away again! Naturally, the cat pounced on her, broke her neck, and started
> munching.
Well, in her defensed, I'm sure she had no idea what the proper reaction
should have been to avoid being eaten. And running away from something
that is gonna eat you is somewhat instinctive I guess.
> Duh... Me, I grew up in the mountains. Along with being taught
> where rattlers hang out, and how to avoid same, I was taught that when
It always amazes me when someone is bit by a rattlesnake...
Considering the lengths that rattlesnakes will go to avoid biting anythign
taht they can;t eat. They make noise, they hide... and yet somehow people
manage to step on them and get bit. Or aggravate them.
Heh... I remember that one of the neighborhood kids found a black snake
(they're harmless) down by the canal here. He had it cornered in a tree
bole and was teasing it with a stick. Ayway, it finall bit him on the
hand.
Me being helpful, I told him that it was a water moccassin. He of course
wouldn;t have know the differene between a water moccasin and Truman
Capote, so he ran screaming home.
His parents did not think it was funny. Neither did my parents. They said
it was mean. I thought poking that animal with a stick was mean.
> confronted by a cat, make yourself as big, nasty and loud as possible, and
> the cat will bail out and look for easier prey. Have met up with several
> bobcats over the years, and at least one cougar (that I *saw*), and never
> had any trouble. But then again, I'm a predator, and I *act* like one.
> <grin>
When in doubt... act like you taste bad and have lots of teeth. : )
> >I ave heard that bears have no real qualms about killing or eating humans.
> >Under the right circumstances, anyway.
>
> Depends on the bear. Brother grizz thinks humans are real tasty.
I thought bears thought _everythign_ was tasty! (No offense intended... so
do Coyotes). : )=
Vladwolf
Coyote Osborne wrote:
>This makes me think of something....
>
>What do we werefolk do to get along in the human world... and how many >are satisfied with doing it?
>
>How many of us are living, and how many just surviving/existing.
I'm the pet computer nerd for the Center for Developmental Disabilities at the University of Vermont. I try to make technology work=
for all the professors and specialists and schools involved with the center. I love my job - i work with a great group of people, t=
he work is challenging and I have lots and lots of freedom and respect.
I'm also on the board of directors and a counselor for a non-profit that provides free summer camp to poor Vermont and New Hampshi=
re kids each summer. We try to give these kids a window to look at a larger world than the one they know.
I'm also a Justice of the Peace, a part time college student, a big sister and otherwise actively involved in my community.
Anyone can survive; life is short, choose living.
Vlad
Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given.
Colby Hayward
In article <spyder-3007...@news.xmission.com>, spy...@xmission.com (Spyder Witiko) says:
>
>When I'm outta cash, and/or been going a few days without much food - or
>food at all! - I notice that I start looking at people on the street a
>little... I guess a little more outta the corners of my eye, sizing them
>up for nutritional value. <grin> Surprise anyone at all?
>
Oooohh, careful there folks...According to FDA standards, human
flesh is not fit for consumption due to excess DDT content, among other
things. :)
Watching out for were-health...
--Colby the Strange, Defender of Humanity?--
(chay...@network.sos.on.ca)
Qeveren on FurryMUCK, and amateur furry artist :)