Alternate religions...
Spyder Witiko
While I'm decidedly non-Xtian, I'm hard put to say what religion I most
closely feel drawn to. I refer to myself as a pseuod-Taoist, but that
doesn't even cover it, when you get down to it... I guess the only real
definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the therianthropic
way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore. And while I've remained
extremely interested in many 'religions', it always seems that if I
research it a little more to see some of the meat of it, so to speak, I
always end up being disappointed and in search once more.
What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
- Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|\/ / / Friends help you move - REAL friends help you move bodies
|_\/ / .-------------------------------------------------------------
|__\/ / / Email to - mailto:spy...@therianthrope.org
|___\/ / My Web Site - http://www.therianthrope.org/spyder/
|____\/ AHWW Site - http://www.therianthrope.org/ahww
'Auryanne' H Riesen
On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Spyder Witiko wrote:
>
> What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
> express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
Hmm... good idea, Spyder :)
I was raised Presbyterian, albeit somewhat loosely - we didn't go
to church every single week, but the morals were still there. I'd
say my own beliefs are a shoddy patchwork of religions that I've
picked up :) I think the Xtian background set the precedent
for my basic "moral" nature ... (although I suppose some would
argue that I'm a godless heathen! ;) I don't steal, I don't
lie, I don't cheat... but that's because I decided that those
were good guidelines and were basically "good" ways to be.
In general I try to "live and let live", if someone wants to
do something I don't like and they aren't hurting others -
or themselves - by doing it, I don't have a problem with it.
One big influence that came later in life was the totemism/
shamanism way of thinking, which I started to learn about when
the dragon side started to emerge. I had never been comfortable
with Xtian belief and teachings, and I remember sitting in church
as a kid thinking that everything the pastor was saying was
myth ... So adopting the dragon as my protector, guardian and
guide became a logical step. At first it wasnt much more
than an identification, but as time went by, I had dreams and
visions of dragons, and I began to focus on my protector
dragon in times of stress or fear, and I could feel the reassuring
embrace of her strong wings. So now my dragonic guide is a very
important force in my life, and I've been able to reflect that
in some of my art lately. I read last year that perhaps all
gods in all religions are merely different interpretations of
the same otherwordly presence, and I think that may be true,
that the dragon I call my guardian is God, the Goddess, Buddha,
and all the others, but in a form that I can understand.
And I wear a piece of jewelry with a dragon on it every day,
which sort of parallels the wearing of the crucifix, and
I feel that gives me guidance and a reminder that my dragon
spirit is always there, her wings arched over mine, as
I fly through my everyday life.
>
> - Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Auryanne the Radiant
-Dragon Ascending to the Heavens-
*******************************************************************************
aury...@u.washington.edu *** http://weber.u.washington.edu/~auryanne
DC.D(sun) f+ s++ h-- Cgold a d+++! l^ Bfire Fr+++ m**! :)
*******************************************************************************
"You are sunlight and I, moon
Joined by the gods of fortune
Midnight and high noon
Sharing the sky
We have been blessed, you and I"
Shadowlkr1
Subject: Alternate religions...
From: spy...@therianthrope.org (Spyder Witiko)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 17:28:04 -0700
Message-ID: <spyder-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com>
While I'm decidedly non-Xtian, I'm hard put to say what religion I most
closely feel drawn to. I refer to myself as a pseuod-Taoist, but that
doesn't even cover it, when you get down to it... I guess the only real
definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the therianthropic
way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore. And while I've remained
extremely interested in many 'religions', it always seems that if I
research it a little more to see some of the meat of it, so to speak, I
always end up being disappointed and in search once more.
What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
were
raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
to
express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
- Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
+++
Eclectic Pagan Witch--started out in Wicca... Basically, I had come up
with a Panentheisitic view of the Universe on my own, and the first book I
read was The Spiral Dance...which let me know that my notions were far
from new...so that's how I began to study Wicca.
Debi Girard
In <19970304011...@ladder02.news.aol.com> shado...@aol.com
recommended to me... Im pagan- and well, thats about all i can say, if
you ask me my beliefs ill gladly answer..../(Just dont mail here- it
aint my addy)
MegaDog the Nettweiler
In article <spyder-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com>,
Spyder Witiko <spy...@therianthrope.org> scribed:
>What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
>religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
>raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
>express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
well, i guess you could say i've always been sceptical about the whole
"mass market" religions thing.. when i was in secondary school (about
11) i really pissed off the religion teacher by saying things like "can
you prove this?" and "how can you believe any of this?".
My parents weren't really religious, they just let me get on with
things...
Perhaps one of the things that led me to reject the mainstream western-
style religions is that i detest the idea of "superior beings", "the
will of god" and all that sort of stuff - i find it demeaning to think
that any part of my life is pre-ordained, or that i should pray to, or
worship, any deity or "higher" being.
Similarly, if there is reincarnation, and I don't have 100% choice and
control of what i come back as (or if indeed i come back at all), then
again i want no part of it.
No reincarnation without representation.
Without free will, I am nothing.
[This is why i dread the idea of dying with something like alzheimer's
disease... unable to take a full and conscious part in my own life...]
And as to the idea that "god is watching you so you'd better be good",
well, thats tantamount to voyeuristic stalking in my book.
So i quickly developed a detestation of deities...
On the other paw, i feel that there is something present in all living
things that deserves to be respected and cherished and loved. I can get
far more spiritual fulfilment by sitting silently in a wood for half an
hour than i ever could from going to an organised church...
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/
Wolf Fang
Spyder Witiko <spy...@therianthrope.org> wrote:
<snip>
> What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
were
> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
to
> express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
Ahhh, great idea Spyder! Hmmm...where to begin? Well, I was born and raised
not only christian, but Catholic. I went to a Catholic school from K
through 6th grade before moving onto public education. Basically I was one
of the strongest believer's in the faith, and everyone who knew me seemed
to know it, a few even thought I might go on to be a priest. Well, my
streangth in my belief allowed me to question it. I first started to
question my faith around 8th or so grade. By nineth grade I no longer
believed much of the dogma that goes into the christian, and especially the
catholic religion. From there I started to explore other religions. I
delved into Toaism, vigorously studied buddism, explored many native
american religions, and even looked down some of the variants of
christianity. In the end after 4 years of soul searching, as well as
exploring the plethora of beliefs around our planet, I've finally begun to
develope what I can truely say is my beliefs. First of all, my base beliefs
about how to treat others and nature come from the Transendentalists, among
the greatest known writers for which were Thoreau and Emerson. The views
held by this group on nature, humanity and tolerance strike a strong cord
within me. From this base I've incorperated a basically hinduistic view of
reincarnation with a few of my own beliefs intertwined. Mainly I feel that
the essance of the individual is immortal and non-linear. It can be
"reborn" within any context in any time period, because time itself is
non-linear. This "spiritual" essance in conjunction with our mortal body
and the bodies it's inhibited in the past make each individual who they
are. As for views on life, I tend to take a rather Toaist view on living to
the fullest, as well as a rather natural belief in living for today while
never losing sight of the future, nor completely forgeting or disregaurding
the past. I also have incorperated many base christian beliefs in my views
on how to treat others, while maintianing my liberal positions. In other
words, I'm a philanthropic therianthrope (who loves phraseology ;) On to my
views of higher powers, basically after going from christian, to native
american, to agnostic, to athiestic, I've finally discovered what my soul
beliefs are in god. I feel, as apperantly did Edgar Allen Poe if you read
the undercurrents of his works, that all things in the universe are of one
immortal essance. Together this essance has a collective conscience that we
would call god. It is omnipresent, as everything is it, as well as being
omniscient as all things known are part of it. However it is not omnipotent
as it can not change anything. Each part is but a small piece of at, and no
more than I can will a skin cell to leave my arm and fall to the floor
consciously, neither can it create or change anything. I believe that even
in the creation of our universe it was part of it, but did not do the
creating. This universe obey's the laws of physics, down to the quantum
level where nothing is predictable anymore, and no being can change that.
So, there you have it, in a nutshell my views on our souls, our lives, and
god. I don't have many beliefs, but I truly and honestly strive my hardest
everyday to live by what I believe in. I hope that I never give anyone
grounds to call me a hipocrite, for even if my views change, as they
constantly seem to do, I will always live by what I profess to believe in.
There are many things I left unsaid, both for brevity and clarity, if you
have any questions, e-mail me or post them.
Your's spiritually,
WolfFang
--
There's a red fox torn by a huntsman's pack,
that's my soul up there.
There's a black winged gull with a broken back,
that's my soul up there.
--The Police
Home Page:
http://www.montrose.net/users/wolffang
Want to learn about Montrose Colorado? Come and visit:
http://www.useful.com/quick/town/81401.htm
Wanderer
Spyder Witiko <spy...@therianthrope.org> wrote in article
<spyder-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com>...
(snip)
> What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
were
> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
to
> express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
>
kneejerk. Just a thought.
Well, I'm a Christian. Born and raised in it, and maybe bred for it, too
.. and here's why:
In my family, we all have, from the time we are born, a feeling. This
feeling is very simple, very straightforward, and as undeniable as my own
lupinity to me.
"God is real."
From the instant most of us see the words in the Bible (which has nothing
to do with churchgoing ... we're all bibliomaniacs, we read everything:),
we get a sudden shock, as though something inside of us is saying, "YES!!
THAT's what that is! It's real! It has a name! And it feels. So.
GOOD!!!!!"
I don't really believe in any one denomination, nor do I *dis*-believe in
others' religions, faiths, or systems of belief. To me and many of my
family, just because God fathered Jesus (oh, the placement of those words
... ;) doesn't mean he didn't father Mohammed, Buddha, Nanabozho, Odin, The
Emperor of Heaven ... or any of the others. And he can call himself God,
Yahweh, Allah, Fate, Dark, Great Spirit, Gitche Manitou, or whatever he
likes. I refuse to limit God by making him hostage to my own limited
imagination.
Angels? Yes, I've met a few ... both earthly and other. Very nice, even
if my guardian angel gets a bit overprotective sometimes (or so I tell
myself ... I haven't argued with him much after that riot he kept me away
from).
God himself? Spoken to him many times ... got spoken to once. With real
words.
Trust me, it's weird from this end, too.
My beliefs? Pretty simple. The Meaning of Life is To Live.
Nice, huh?:)
Basically, every living being is important, because they're all alive.
Each one is a work of art, a living gemstone with a great, internal light
in every facet.
(It's a bit like living in a stained-glass window. But lots better.:)
And if God minds having a werewolf in church ... well, he's never
complained to me.:)
Yours with a love of music and ceremony (Communion ... gotta love it.;),
The churchgoing,
Wanderer****************'Where am I going?I don't quite know.
****************************'What does it matter where people go?
wand...@why.net'*****Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
wand...@whytel.com'*Anywhere!Anywhere!Idon't know!
Trot Fox
Habeeb23 wrote:
>
> >What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> >religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
> were
> >raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> >happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
> to
> >express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
> >
>
> religion... I wasn't taught to say my prayers at night, or to read the
> X-tian Bible (or any other). When I was about 12, I began to go to church
> (because my soon-to-be step-siblings *had* to, it was only fair) fairly
> regularly. I had to sit through the preacher's babblings, and I was
> sickened by constant diatribes about my Mom living in sin because she
> lived with the guy... When I moved away (to another family member's house-
> loooong story) I stopped going to church entirely. The only other times
> I've set foot in *any* church have been for my paternal grandparents'
> funerals. A friend of mine told me about Discordianism, and I read the
> main holy book (The Principia Discordia) and it pretty much went well with
> how I viewed life.
> Ever since, I've been a faithful Discordian.
>
> Hail Eris,
> Habeeb23
What is a Discordian? I've never even heard the term.
--
Trot Fox / My sanity is saved and threatened
http://web2.airmail.net/trotfox5/ / by the absorption of much Fantasy.
GrassCatt
Spyder Witiko wrote:
>
> While I'm decidedly non-Xtian, I'm hard put to say what religion I most
> closely feel drawn to. I refer to myself as a pseuod-Taoist, but that
> doesn't even cover it, when you get down to it... I guess the only real
> definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the therianthropic
> way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore. And while I've remained
> extremely interested in many 'religions', it always seems that if I
> research it a little more to see some of the meat of it, so to speak, I
> always end up being disappointed and in search once more.
>
> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
> express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
>
> - Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
Religion is a rather new question to me. Fate allowed me to grow up in
an idealogical vacuum. Mom had/has no idea what to do with a child and
dad worked from 6am-9pm. In short, I was left alone for the most part.
Which worked out quite well for me although I tend to think of the
"real" world as something distant and translucent while fantasy is quite
comfortably solid and relavent (sp). When I moved to the Bible Belt six
years ago I was exposed to the concept of religion for the first time.
I'd always been vaugely aware of it (Bedtime prayers were ranked with
nursery rhymes and such), but I had never noticed large groups of people
taking it seriously. It was rather unnerving. I tried to understand
organized religion but got caught up in the details. Parables that said
rather nasty things ... the very idea of identifying with a sheep ...
when I found out what the bread and wine represented I felt very
uncomfortable. So I did research; Judeaism, Taoism, Buddism, Indian
beliefs, folklore, and Goddess religions. I discovered that deep down
where the magic in life should be there was a belief that all things
were connected. That we were far more than physical creature eeking out
an existance on this Earth .. and so is everything else. (mangled
quote) "I am no less important than the mountains themselves and no more
important that the mud beneath my feet". Karma is deeply worked in
there somewhere, as well as the belief that all things are possible.
Past lives, reincarnation (with representation;-) telepathy, magic, and
perhaps, just maybe Deities (plural or One, but if it is one gender is
irrelevant). I do not like the idea of such powerful beings existing,
creatures that could alter, or end my life with a blink of an eye. But
I have come to the conclusion that if they exist they *must* do so at
such an enlightened state that they would never interfere with free
will, even for our own good. To believe otherwise would be to live a
life of paranoia. I stole bits and peices from every religion that
crossed my way. Spiral Dance was influential in verbalizing many of the
things I felt .. so were several Haiku's. The closest thing to a Label
(shudder, evil thing) that I can think of for myself is Ecclectic
Witch.
I have tried to think of how to say this next bit, but i can't so i
will just copy the passage that put it into words so clearly for me...
To all the varied peoples of the world, nothing is so out of reach, yet
so deeply personal and controlling, as the concept of a god. My
experience in my homeland showed me little of these supernatural beings
beyond the influence of the vile Drow Deity, the Spider Queen, Loth.
After witnessing the carnage of Loth's workings, I was not so quick to
embrace the concept of any god, of any beying that could so dictate the
code of behavior and precepts of an entire society. *Is Morality not an
internal force?* Are principles to be dictated or felt?
In the end, to a preachers ultimate sorrow, the choice of a god is a
personal one, and the alignment to any Being is in accord with one's
internal codes and principles. *No rational being can truly follow the
determined orders of any god-figure if those orders run contrary to his
own tenents.*
The gods of the Realms are many and varied - or they are many and
varied names tagged onto the same being - I know not, and care not,
which.
-Drizzt Do'Urden
I suppose it could be well paraphrased with "you have no choice but to
follow your heart" .. but that just looses something don't you think?
-GrassCatt Plainsrunner
My Karma ran over my Dogma
Ysengrin Werewolf
On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 19:40:58 -0600, Trot Fox <sol...@spdc.ti.com>
wrote:
>Habeeb23 wrote:
>>A friend of mine told me about Discordianism, and I read the
>> main holy book (The Principia Discordia) and it pretty much went well with
>> how I viewed life.
>> Ever since, I've been a faithful Discordian.
>
>What is a Discordian? I've never even heard the term.
It's based on worship of the Greek goddess of chaos and confusion,
Eris, and is also called the Erisian Movement. It's also a very good
way of loosening your preconceptions about everything. Or just having
a good laugh; that's quite within the tenants as well.
The "Principia Discordia" is the bible (or not <gryn>), although
Cosmic Trigger covers some of the same territory, and the Illuminati
Trilogy uses the symbolism heavily.
"... it should be noted that the Erisian Movement does not
discriminate against werewolves ..." - _Principa Discordia_, page 51.
--
Ysengrin Werewolf (AKA Silvermane), Verdun Manor Pack
http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html
Habeeb23
>What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
>religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
were
>raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
to
>express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
>
> - Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
My parents didn't really raise me with any strong concept of
religion... I wasn't taught to say my prayers at night, or to read the
X-tian Bible (or any other). When I was about 12, I began to go to church
(because my soon-to-be step-siblings *had* to, it was only fair) fairly
regularly. I had to sit through the preacher's babblings, and I was
sickened by constant diatribes about my Mom living in sin because she
lived with the guy... When I moved away (to another family member's house-
loooong story) I stopped going to church entirely. The only other times
I've set foot in *any* church have been for my paternal grandparents'
funerals. A friend of mine told me about Discordianism, and I read the
main holy book (The Principia Discordia) and it pretty much went well with
how I viewed life.
Ever since, I've been a faithful Discordian.
Hail Eris,
Habeeb23
Christopher Eric Hughes
Trot Fox (sol...@spdc.ti.com) wrote:
: Habeeb23 wrote:
: > Ever since, I've been a faithful Discordian.
: What is a Discordian? I've never even heard the term.
[LoveBear fetches his well-thumbed Principia Discordia and attempts to
boil it down to some base concepts. After hurting his head muchly in
the attempt, he stops.]
God is a Woman, and Her name is Eris! Eris is the Greek name for the
Roman goddess Discordia, Goddess of Chaos and Party Favours. She was
the one who threw the golden apple emblazoned with "KALLISTI" (except
when she did it, it was in Greek), which means "For the Fairest" into
the beauty contest that Paris had to judge. She did this because she
wasn't invited to that party. After throwing that spanner into the
works (well, it wasn't a spanner; it was an apple), she consoled herself
with a Hot Dog, and this became the Original Snub (the lack of the
invitation, not the hot dog).
Discordians are commended by Eris on Fridays to Partake of a Hot Dog,
for in so doing, they freely and cheerfully violate the sacred tenets
many major faiths. Christianity (no meat on Friday), Hinduism (no meat
of beef), Islam (no meat of pork), Buddhism (no meat of animal), and
Discordianism (no hot dog buns).
Discordians have a holy calender, but because I don't feel like explainig
it, I won't.
"The Hell Law states that Hell is reserved exclusively for them that
believes in it. Further, the lowest rung in hell is reserved for those
that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they
don't." From the Honest Book of Truth, The Gospel According to Fred 3:1.
In short, Eris is a joke. And the ultimate jokester. And I am Eris'
Soap Opera.
LoveBear, Discordian Atheist
--
In the name of the best within us, I don't explain myself!
Christopher Hughes My friends understand, and the
be...@atheist.com rest wouldn't believe me anyway!
Ben Goodridge
In article <19970304011...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
shado...@aol.comò says...
>What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
>religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
>were
>raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
>to
>express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
I went right down the list; my grandmother is a Methodist, my father not
particularly spiritual; my mother sees herself as a truly religious person;
a devout Protestant, if a bit of a fair-weather one, and she never tried to
shove that up anyone's ass. An occasional churchgoer--we had a rather nice
Congregationalist church in Saco and another in Augusta--she still
occasionally gives the hard-sell to us in terms of churchgoing--"Do you want
to come with me to sunrise services this Easter?" Uh, no, I don't think
so..."What's wrong?" (Plaintive) "Don't you believe in God?" No, Mom. I'm
going straight to hell. And I'll say hi to Grandpa when I get there.
Old habits die hard in terms of that sort of upbringing--I'm reminded of it
every time I say "Oh, God."
I got off that bad trip when I went to college. There was really no excuse
to pretend anymore. I had already started down a road leading towards a deep
and abiding Earth-worship. There came Taoism, a sort of religion
stripping-brush, and Buddhism, a sort of religion primer-coat. Taoism
remains the catalyst for a lot of what I believe now. Getting gender out of
God, for instance. Seeing the Earth as the action of a creative being, an
artist, rather than a God. Choosing lesser things to take by example than
some martyr or saint. Respect for the right things. You know. I used Taoism
to approach Shamanism, far too much of which I still don't understand.
All of this creates a strange hybrid which doesn't really settle under one
label and really has nothing to prove. There's Taoism, but I'm not going to
shave my head and cloister myself. There are some Native American beliefs,
but I'm not going to hang myself from hooks. "An it hurt none, do as thou
wilt shall be the whole of the law" is just fine with me. I can recognize
New-Age ramalama moneymaking plots a thousand miles away, and I've developed
my own forms of meditation and contemplation which I've had to do fairly
extensive research to see mirrored anywhere else.
Whew. That's religion. Who wants to talk politics?
Ben Goodridge
bgoo...@maine.maine.edu
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2368
Jeff Davis
Trot Fox wrote:
>
> Habeeb23 wrote:
> >
> > >What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> > >religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
> > were
> > >raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> > >happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance
> > to
> > >express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
> > >
> >
> > My parents didn't really raise me with any strong concept of
> > religion... I wasn't taught to say my prayers at night, or to read the
> > X-tian Bible (or any other). When I was about 12, I began to go to church
> > (because my soon-to-be step-siblings *had* to, it was only fair) fairly
> > regularly. I had to sit through the preacher's babblings, and I was
> > sickened by constant diatribes about my Mom living in sin because she
> > lived with the guy... When I moved away (to another family member's house-
> > loooong story) I stopped going to church entirely. The only other times
> > I've set foot in *any* church have been for my paternal grandparents'
> > funerals. A friend of mine told me about Discordianism, and I read the
> > main holy book (The Principia Discordia) and it pretty much went well with
> > how I viewed life.
> >
> > Habeeb23
>
> What is a Discordian? I've never even heard the term.
>
>
> Trot Fox / My sanity is saved and threatened
> http://web2.airmail.net/trotfox5/ / by the absorption of much Fantasy.
It's a long story. ;) Mainly it's and odd and bizarre religion based
primarily on the concept of taking life as non-seriously as possible.
The religion's 'founders' were in a bowling alley one day thinking
aboutthe fact that nothing really interesting was happening when
suddenly time froze and a large monkey walked up to them baring a
scroll. On it was written: "Who do you think is responicible for all
this chaos? -Eris" After reading it, the monkey's head promptly exploded
and time was restored to the normal flow.
I, myself, modified and made a religion based off Earth Worship. Little
bit of Celtic base with some Greek thrown in for good measure. And yes,
I've got a moon Goddess. ;) Chao.
-Jeff le Unknown
Zepp
On Mon, 03 Mar 1997 17:28:04 -0700, spy...@therianthrope.org (Spyder
Witiko) wrote:
<snip, snip>
>What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
>religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
>raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
>express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
>
> - Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
Whooo, that one takes a bit of thought... <ponders a while, suckin'
down a virtual Guinness> I guess I'm kind of a halfassed Wiccan, with
shamanic leanings, interest in learning more kinds of the healing arts
besides the western medicine I already know.
I have always felt left out by mainstream xtianity. Grew up Anglican,
and usually feel pretty comfortable in Catholic churches -- I'll go in
to light a candle for the ancestors and the dear departed, betimes,
and it feels quite nice. But I always got in trouble in sunday school
for asking awkward questions, like, where did noah's sons wives come
from, if'n everybody was dead? And I couldn't hack the judgementalist
headset. People would tell me that any who heal by laying on of
hands, without glorifying jesus, are doing the devil's work -- and I
can't buy that. So I left xtianity behind, and was dazed and confused
for a while. Then I started working RenFaire, and began to meet
various sorts of pagans and suchlike -- and felt like I was coming
home! Bought and read "spiral dance", and realized this was alot
closer to being "it", than anything I'd found before. I came to find
out that the religion of my ancestors was much closer to this than to
xtianity -- though I believe we'll never really know the details --
too many records were lost or destroyed. But the reverence for
nature, the feeling that we are all part of godness, and it of us, the
feeling that everything and everywhere has something of the divine
within it -- that's a lot of what my religion is about. I do alittle
magickal work betimes, but consider myself the merest beginner in such
practice. I know the exercises and practices I need to do, I'm just
too bloody lazy to do 'em, most of the time.
I'm intuitive, and occasionally empathic, and all this just *feels*
right to me. There's a lot of native american stuff mixed into it,
too -- for although I share none of that bloodline, those beliefs
*fit* and *ring true*. So, there ya have it. Oh, and I guess I'd
have to call myself a halfassed Rastafarian, too, if ye want total
honesty. No, I don't believe Hailie Selassie is god <grin>. Bit I do
believe that the herb was given to us for a good reason, and it is
something of a sacrament to me.
Greywolf the Wanderer, enjoying everyone's responses, borrowing zepp's
account
Debi Girard
In <Pine.A41.3.95b.97030...@dante28.u.washington.edu>
'Auryanne' H Riesen <aury...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Spyder Witiko wrote:
>
>>
Why the
>> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one
you were
>> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>> happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a
chance to
>> express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
I was not raised as a strong catholic, but i was raised catholic
nonthless...I dutifully slept though all the CCD classes required for
First Communion. I toted my fantasy books along faithfully when we went
to Church those rare times when it was either a holiday or my
grandmother was visiting. When I graduated elemntary school I was put
in a Cathoic school on the island, right down the street from me in
fact...not for the sake of putting morals in my head but because puplic
eduation daunted my parents...and hey- good catholic morals ((and
lapses in logic)) never hurt anybody. I learned the bible, not for the
religious faith- but more for the historic value.
Well, midway through my seventh grade year -to coin a White Wolf term
you might say an "awakening", a few events in my life occured, none of
whice was covered in any of the doctrine my Priest had given me...none
that I could find on my own...I started reading more into it- believe
it or not fantasy books helped me become the pagan i am today, it gave
me a few basic ideas to work from-and from there I began to experement
and formulate my beliefs.
I continued this into high school, meeting up, my sophmore with my
friend who you all know as Abraxis. I had already developed a firm
sence of what I believed but still was playing with ideas and concepts
that fit the rough details, Abraxis was well, the 'Brax i still know
and love- very much as confused as I was, in a vaguer (he eventually
drumed in a band by the name of Vauge) sort of way. He and I played
informally with a few ideas, and he clued me into you folk- and opened
my eyes to the fact there *were* other pagans (although that isnt a
word I would use to describe Abraxis) around, locally. I found a few,
dated a few infact and forged myself a coven that flamed very bright
but nt for very long. I pratice alone now.
SO here I am now adrift in the world with only my ideas to comfort me
<g> ANd damn happy with the ride.
Karthwine
Spyder Witiko
In article <JbLsFCA1...@canismajor.demon.co.uk>, MegaDog the
Nettweiler <meg...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
"> "mass market" religions thing.. when i was in secondary school (about
"> 11) i really pissed off the religion teacher by saying things like "can
"> you prove this?" and "how can you believe any of this?".
Hee-hee... me, too. I started questioning a lot of the dogma they were
force-feeding me at about 8 -- which is *ta-da* the same time I started
researching other faiths and myth systems.
When I was 15 or 16, I was told to "stop asking so many questions and just
accept it on faith" -- that's the time I officially stopped being Xtian.
"> My parents weren't really religious, they just let me get on with
"> things...
That would have been nice. My (single) mother was a convert, so she spent
75% of our time together cramming it down my throat. Helluva way to grow
up...
She's better now -- questioning her own beliefs, as a matter of fact, and
finding them seriously wanting. I'm vastly relieved that my bro and sis (6
and 9, respectively) will grow up without this yoke...
"> Perhaps one of the things that led me to reject the mainstream western-
"> style religions is that i detest the idea of "superior beings", "the
"> will of god" and all that sort of stuff - i find it demeaning to think
"> that any part of my life is pre-ordained, or that i should pray to, or
"> worship, any deity or "higher" being.
And that's the source of my dilemma -- I reject the authority it implies,
yet I can't help believing that there is a "higher" power... Maybe it's the
Force. =)
"> Similarly, if there is reincarnation, and I don't have 100% choice and
"> control of what i come back as (or if indeed i come back at all), then
"> again i want no part of it.
I believe in the reincarnation, mainly cause I do remember a couple of
lives -- or at least, bits and pieces. But I have _no_ idea the mechanism
of it...
"> On the other paw, i feel that there is something present in all living
"> things that deserves to be respected and cherished and loved. I can get
"> far more spiritual fulfilment by sitting silently in a wood for half an
"> hour than i ever could from going to an organised church...
Same here. Churches are just dusty. ;}
- Spyder Witiko, kokodhem-at-large
KatmanDu
>In article <spyder-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com>,
>Spyder Witiko <spy...@therianthrope.org> scribed:
>>religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
>>raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
>>happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a chance to
>>express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
I was raised Methodist... although my parents weren't really big on
religion. I went to sunday school and church, was confirmed in the
church, all that good stuff... but more because it was the socially
acceptable thing for families to do rather than because my parents
were fundamentalist anythings. They always encouraged their children
to make their own decisions regarding things... although it's kind of
annoying nowadays to find them questioning the decisions we've made; I
guess that just parents. :) For a while late in high school and early
in college, I was more or less agnostic, leaning towards atheism...
but having done a lot of introspective navel-gazing and thought, I
find myself coming to the conclusion that there's _something_ out
there. God, Yaweh, Allah, Zoroaster... I dunno. But it _feels_ right.
I'm of the opinion that there are many paths to, for a lack of a
better term, God. No one religion is better or worse than any other..
I think the core of it all is how you are as a person; good or evil? I
won't go into the semantics of that here; that's a whole 'nother can
of worms. But I feel if you're basically a good person, you're coming
closer to whatever's out there afterwards than if you're an asshole.
Heaven, Hell, Limbo. reincarnation? I've no idea. I like the concept
of reincarnation; the idea of second and subsequent chances to get it
right. But I dunno. I don't feel that God necessarily demands that I
make my mind up, either. My God (IMHO) is more or less indifferent...
He(She,It,Whatever) is more like a tolerant godparent... willing to
help when it can, but determined to let you make your own way, your
own decisions, and clean up your own messes. How else can you learn?
And that's what I think I'm here for... to learn. What I'm supposed to
learn, I don't know... I suppose when I can answer that, I'll be done.
But it's something I have to do for myself; If I fail, maybe I'll be
recycled and given another chance. God will watch, and maybe drop
subtle hints here and there; but I'm basically on my own. He won't
patronize or spoil. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
I also feel He's basically embodied in Nature... I suppose I could
call Him/Her "Gaia", if I wanted. I don't feel a name is really that
necessary. I don't feel Gaia demands worship.. probably frowns on
it... but there's a little bit of me that can't help but want to
worship something so beautiful and complete. The rest of me says to
bugger off with that kowtowing crap, but that's just me. :)
As a final note, that's just how I feel... I'm certainly not going to
say that someone else's path is wrong or stupid; when my own is
subject to such ridicule. "Your religion is between you and your God,
and no one else's business".
Wolf Fang
Howls and grrreetings to all the pack,
GrassCatt <Gras...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<331CEF...@concentric.net>...
> Spyder Witiko wrote:
> >
> > What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why
the
> > religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you
were
> > raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> > happened? And let's keep this discussion civil. <big grin> It's a
chance to
> > express your P'sOV, not to flame one another... ;}
> >
> > - Spyder "More Signal, Less Noise" Witiko
>
Well, I used to think that my 'religion' based on the beliefs of such a
large and varied collection of beliefs was rather rare. Of course, like it
appears to be with sucha plethora of things, they are quite similar to many
of my fellow were's beliefs. GreyWolf the Wanderer, Jeff Davis, GrassCatt,
and many others all spoke of beliefs similar to my own, and although by now
I should be used to this common train of thought, I still found it quite
remarkable.
<Snip GrassCatt's strikingly similar discution of her beliefs>
> To all the varied peoples of the world, nothing is so out of reach, yet
> so deeply personal and controlling, as the concept of a god. My
> experience in my homeland showed me little of these supernatural beings
> beyond the influence of the vile Drow Deity, the Spider Queen, Loth.
> After witnessing the carnage of Loth's workings, I was not so quick to
> embrace the concept of any god, of any beying that could so dictate the
> code of behavior and precepts of an entire society. *Is Morality not an
> internal force?* Are principles to be dictated or felt?
> In the end, to a preachers ultimate sorrow, the choice of a god is a
> personal one, and the alignment to any Being is in accord with one's
> internal codes and principles. *No rational being can truly follow the
> determined orders of any god-figure if those orders run contrary to his
> own tenents.*
> The gods of the Realms are many and varied - or they are many and
> varied names tagged onto the same being - I know not, and care not,
> which.
> -Drizzt Do'Urden
Great quote, and the seemingly new AHWW motto "a difference that makes no
difference makes no difference" seems to summarize this quote as well.
Thank's for posting it :)
> I suppose it could be well paraphrased with "you have no choice but to
> follow your heart" .. but that just looses something don't you think?
So true, to each his/her own, live and let live, only you can decide what
is true, not some man/god who lived a thousand plus years ago, not even
your neighbor, but only you.
> -GrassCatt Plainsrunner
>
> My Karma ran over my Dogma
Ohhh....poor dog, I guess that's the fate of the dogmatic. (catch the
internal irony?)
"And I'm proud to be a lycanthrope
For at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget those weres who died
Of intolarence and greed.
And I'll proudly stand up next to you
And defend this pack today.
In our beliefs we are free,
A virtual fire for the brave!"
Wow, that just came to me, take it or leave it.
Never boring,
Spyder Witiko
"> I also feel He's basically embodied in Nature... I suppose I could
"> call Him/Her "Gaia", if I wanted. I don't feel a name is really that
"> necessary. I don't feel Gaia demands worship.. probably frowns on
"> it... but there's a little bit of me that can't help but want to
"> worship something so beautiful and complete. The rest of me says to
"> bugger off with that kowtowing crap, but that's just me. :)
That's funny... I've always had the exact opposite view: with what I've
said previously, some of you may think I don't believe in God (that One god
Yahweh/Jehovah, god of the Jews and Xtians) but I actually have always know
he exists, along with all the other gods, too. I just don't like him very
much at all. He seems petty, childish, and more interested in pulling the
legs off his "creations" and watching them squirm under the beam of light
from his cosmic magnifying glass than in helping, or even in leaving them
alone. Watching what he alllowed to happen to his Chosen People in
"Schindler's List" on TV the other night just helped to clarify that even
further -- it was the first time I've very vocally denounced God, as in, to
His "face" by raising my fist and yelling at Him that I forsook Him
completely. I've had a very Gnostic view of Jehovah for years, but seeing
some of the Holocaust reproduced for my viewing edutainment was the last
straw... I mean, they had a contract, for Pete's sake! ;}
Gaia/Nature/The Earth Mother has always seemed a very separate entity to
me, even when I was Xtian myself -- if Mormons can be called that by even
Xtian standards these days. <grin> She is the animal kingdom's ruler and
goddess, and she's never claimed to watch out for any one of her children
to the expense of the others. Natural law is her only rule... I respect her
more than any of the other gods and goddesses I've come across so far in my
studies -- and I'm beginning to think I _really_ need to go get a copy of
"Spiral Dance" and look a little further into Wicca now...
Bigwig
Shadowlkr1 wrote:
> I guess the only real
> definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the therianthropic
> way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore.
According to your werecard, wouldn't you be more spiritual along the
lines of vampires, and isn't spiritualism a religious tendancy also.
forgiv me if I am totally out of line here, but what is the story? If I
read your .sig I get a third religious tendancy, but according to this
yopu have none?
> Eclectic Pagan Witch--started out in Wicca... Basically, I had come up
> with a Panentheisitic view of the Universe on my own, and the first book I
> read was The Spiral Dance...which let me know that my notions were far
> from new...so that's how I began to study Wicca.
Why bring up studies that you have found to be not fully you, when you
could look to the future and some sort of resolution to your confusion?
KatmanDu
spy...@therianthrope.org (Spyder Witiko) wrote:
>Xtian standards these days. <grin> She is the animal kingdom's ruler and
>goddess, and she's never claimed to watch out for any one of her children
>to the expense of the others. Natural law is her only rule...
That's pretty much the way I see it... I jest dunno if he/she's the
only God out there, or what. But I s'pose I'll find out eventually. :)
Maelstrom
You should have known that any mention of eris would bring me oozing out from
the woodwork like excess lemon oil...
In article <5fitf7$i...@hermes.acs.unt.edu> hug...@ponder.csci.unt.edu
(Christopher Eric Hughes) writes:
>Trot Fox (sol...@spdc.ti.com) wrote:
>: Habeeb23 wrote:
>: > Ever since, I've been a faithful Discordian.
>: What is a Discordian? I've never even heard the term.
>[LoveBear fetches his well-thumbed Principia Discordia and attempts to
>boil it down to some base concepts. After hurting his head muchly in
>the attempt, he stops.]
Lots of LoveBear's carefully referenced stuff snipped ; )
>In short, Eris is a joke. And the ultimate jokester. And I am Eris'
>Soap Opera.
>LoveBear, Discordian Atheist
>--
>In the name of the best within us, I don't explain myself!
>Christopher Hughes My friends understand, and the
>be...@atheist.com rest wouldn't believe me anyway!
Hail, Brother. Wallawalla washington. Ellafitzgerald, my dear Whopper.
Discordianism is classified as a "joke" religion, which misleads the
uninitiated about how devout a Discordian can be.
When I had my last conversation with Her, the Goddess told me that everything
written about Her and Her worship is good for about 45 seconds, then becomes
obsolete, or at the very least attracts moths. The very concept of a "ritual"
is so against the essence of chaos that only those capable of mastering the
double-entendre should dare attempt one.
What impressed me most upon my conversion was that as soon as
Discordianism started picking up some popularity, the original devotees went
underground. I have taken that as my personal "sign" ( along with Sagittarius
and No-Parking ) to participate only as a guerilla Discordian, fostering the
appearance of order in my daily life only to conceal a raging hotbed of chaos
beneath the surface.
Into the Maelstrom, my dear friends. Nearer, my Goddess to Thee!
The Grigsbeast
Spiritwalker wrote:
> If you can live by the REDE "and if it harm none do what ye will"
Unfortunately this is not possible. By existing, you take resources
that might otherwise be used by someone (or something) else to live.
Even if you're vegan, ever buy any clothes? Drive or ride in a
vehicle? Eat any food? Drink any water? Breathe any air?
Everything you do is at the expense of something else as long as we
remain within a finite Earth. The only way you can maintain that it is
possible to "harm none" is by ignoring the fact that you are an eating,
breathing, living, defecating human animal. I believe it's better to
accept that, and in my acceptance, be _conscious_ of the consequences of
my actions, instead of forsaking a few token things and denying that the
rest have consequences.
As far as I can tell, all 'religion' is a set of facile answers to
difficult questions -- these among them.
I have no religion; I have my life, my friends, and the Earth. If these
are not sufficient, perhaps I should go about improving them instead of
settling for illusions, however comforting they may be.
// grigsbeast
Shadowlkr1
Subject: Re: Alternate religions...
From: Bigwig <bigw...@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 19:22:39 -0500
Message-ID: <331F5F...@hotmail.com>
Shadowlkr1 wrote:
+++
Actually a large part of the confusion stems from the fact that the
following quote is not actually mine. <G>
+++
> I guess the only real
> definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the
therianthropic
> way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore.
According to your werecard, wouldn't you be more spiritual along the
lines of vampires, and isn't spiritualism a religious tendancy also.
forgiv me if I am totally out of line here, but what is the story? If I
read your .sig I get a third religious tendancy, but according to this
yopu have none?
+++
I'm not sure what you mean by spiritualism, then. Anyhow... as I said,
that wasn't me that said that.
+++
> Eclectic Pagan Witch--started out in Wicca... Basically, I had come up
> with a Panentheisitic view of the Universe on my own, and the first book
I
> read was The Spiral Dance...which let me know that my notions were far
> from new...so that's how I began to study Wicca.
Why bring up studies that you have found to be not fully you, when you
could look to the future and some sort of resolution to your confusion?
+++
Ok, this quote was actually mine. <G> And Wicca was fully me--then. I
evolved to a slightly different practice. I don't have any confusion, as
far as religion is concerned. As for the rest of it, well, that's in my
werecard. <G>
Shadowlkr1
Subject: 'Religion'
From: The Grigsbeast <gri...@netgate.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:16:50 -0800
Message-ID: <332247...@netgate.net>
// grigsbeast
+++
It's sad how modern Wicca has become so dogmatic, it is becoming as bad as
Christianity for that. The Rede was never meant to be a law.
The Nameless One
Shadowlkr1 wrote:
>
> It's sad how modern Wicca has become so dogmatic, it is becoming as bad as
> Christianity for that.
Oh, no. Look, I don't mean to try to supress anyone's opinion or anything
like that, but do we have to go back into the Christian bashing again?
--
The Nameless One
Exspecto meus bellum cum morte.
"Look inside my soul, and see the face of madness."
"Ora et labora" -St. Benedict
sett...@pa.mother.com
1) If the Wiccan Rede wasn't meant to be a law, then what was it meant to
be?
2) If it's not a law, or there are no laws, then how can I predict the
behavior or reliability of someone who believes in Wicca then?
Hunter Rose
Dennis Lee Bieber
On Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:16:50 -0800 in alt.horror.werewolves,
The Grigsbeast (gri...@netgate.net) declaimed:
> Spiritwalker wrote:
> > If you can live by the REDE "and if it harm none do what ye will"
>
> Unfortunately this is not possible. By existing, you take resources
> that might otherwise be used by someone (or something) else to live.
> Even if you're vegan, ever buy any clothes? Drive or ride in a
> vehicle? Eat any food? Drink any water? Breathe any air?
>
My take...
First, the proper quote is "an it harm none, do as thou wilt" --
where "an" is an archaic for "if"...
Note that this does not say "NEVER do harm" -- if only states
that /if it does no harm/ you should then not feel guilt for whatever
actions you take.
Anything that /does/ involve harm must still be worked out
internally -- is it needful? does it outweigh not doing? etc.
Yes, one /could/ justify even incest using my interpretation --
IF one can truly determine what "harm" would be with regards to all
parties involved... Incest is, after all, a legal/moral definition with
perhaps some basis in fact (ie, avoid inbreeding) -- but if all parties
are adult enough to understand what is happening and to take precautions
against that result? Then where is the harm but in the eyes of society
-- a society which tends to be biased such that anything pleasurable must
be "wrong"...
No, I'm not advocating you go out and couple with your relatives
-- merely trying my poor attempt at (badly spelt) "reductio ad absurdum"
(IE, reduce the argument until the conclusion's absurdity itself negates
the original argument).
--
> ============================================================ <
> wulf...@netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
> Finger for PGP key | Bestiaria Support Staff <
> ============================================================ <
> Bestiaria Home Page: http://beastie.dm.net/ <
> Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/ <
-=-=-=-=-=-
Usenet KILL-FILED for excessive off-topic SPAM:
worldnet.att.net cyberway.com.sg hotmail.com
Is your site going to be next?
KatmanDu
The Grigsbeast <gri...@netgate.net> wrote:
>Spiritwalker wrote:
>> If you can live by the REDE "and if it harm none do what ye will"
>Unfortunately this is not possible. By existing, you take resources
>that might otherwise be used by someone (or something) else to live.
Some maintain that the rede should be "And if ye harm none without
just cause, do what ye will"...
Shadowlkr1
Subject: Re: 'Religion'
From: sett...@pa.mother.com
Date: 9 Mar 1997 10:42:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1997030918...@step.mother.com>
1) If the Wiccan Rede wasn't meant to be a law, then what was it meant to
be?
+++
"Rede" Means sound advice--not "Law".
+++
2) If it's not a law, or there are no laws, then how can I predict the
behavior or reliability of someone who believes in Wicca then?
Hunter Rose
+++
Why do you need to?
Trot Fox
The Grigsbeast wrote:
>
> Spiritwalker wrote:
> > If you can live by the REDE "and if it harm none do what ye will"
>
<<snipit>>
>
> I have no religion; I have my life, my friends, and the Earth. If these
> are not sufficient, perhaps I should go about improving them instead of
> settling for illusions, however comforting they may be.
>
> // grigsbeast
Now, if I see this right, you seem to be saying the same thing I see
quite often. Religion is supposed to be a comforting thing. Why does
everyone think this? I'm not so sure that it's the truth, religion's
purpose being to comfort. I mean, I don't belive the Bible because it
makes me feel better, I believe it because I see it as being truth.
Some of it scares the living daylights outa me, but I believe it never
the less. Of course, it could be that I'm just seeing things wrong,
Lord knows I've done that too many times before.
Bigwig
Spiritwalker wrote:
> Yo, you may not remember me spyder. But I had to jump in on this one
> I wont preach to you about the one true religion. Nor will I preach
> to you about any one diety being supreme.
> I am a Wiccan. And I am proud to be one. Wiccans you will find dont
> push their beliefs on others. I am sure that you will like that.
You know, that last line was one that I heard in a scientology
recruitment session. Not to mention, what you are currently doing is
pushing wiccan beliefs in a NG where it really doesn't belong. Granted,
it isn't a hard push, but most people have heard of wicca, and would be
willing, if they found it to be to their liking, to do more research on
it. It is not too hard to find the books, people, webpages, etc... to
teach whatever they want to be taught, and it really does not need to be
so heavily spammed. I have a religios denomination, yet I have not found
need to try and recruit everyone here to it.
> If you can live by the REDE "and if it harm none do what ye will"
> and the three fold law. I think you will like it very mutch.
And the christians say that if you live by their bible, you will like it
very much. scientologists say that if you follow their tech, you will
like it very much. Please cut the preaching
> For all those interested visit the witches league for public awareness
> WLPA as a key word. It is an exelent website for the truth about
> witches and the craft. please feel free to email me.
> merry meet, merry part and merry meet again.
For those who are interested, there is that spanking BBS that the prince
keeps spamming us with. I guess it is OK for wicca spam, but god forbid
any other group of people decides to unload their advertisements upon
us.
Bigwig
>
> Goddess bless
tebb...@aol.com
Personal I hate relegion. Spirtuality should be personal. Not shared by nay two people on the face of the planet. Personal belife.
But hey I think theres a force with something that rsesmbles a prsonality that created all that was that became all that is. It sums up my relegious belives nicely.
I think that free will is a truth. And disrespecting anothers free will is wrong. That sums up my "moral" belives.
Well I think thats all.
Teb
Spyder Witiko
"> Spiritwalker wrote:
">
"> > Yo, you may not remember me spyder. But I had to jump in on this one
"> > I wont preach to you about the one true religion. Nor will I preach
"> > to you about any one diety being supreme.
"> > I am a Wiccan. And I am proud to be one. Wiccans you will find dont
"> > push their beliefs on others. I am sure that you will like that.
">
"> You know, that last line was one that I heard in a scientology
"> recruitment session. Not to mention, what you are currently doing is
"> pushing wiccan beliefs in a NG where it really doesn't belong. Granted,
Bigwig, if you read the point of the whole thread, I was _asking_ people to
share their religions and P'sOV -- this wasn't an off-topic reply on
Spiritwalker's part...
MegaDog the Nettweiler - address munged to avoid spammers -
In article <wulfraedE...@netcom.com>, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wulf...@beastie.netcom.com> scribed:
>On Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:16:50 -0800 in alt.horror.werewolves,
>The Grigsbeast (gri...@netgate.net) declaimed:
>
> > Spiritwalker wrote:
> >
> > that might otherwise be used by someone (or something) else to live.
> > vehicle? Eat any food? Drink any water? Breathe any air?
> >
> My take...
>
> First, the proper quote is "an it harm none, do as thou wilt" --
>where "an" is an archaic for "if"...
And it's not specifically a "wiccan/pagan" thing either... the first
reference i've found to this is in reference to the Thelemites (monks
from the imaginary abbey of Theleme, [written about by Rabelais] the
rule of whose order was basically "do as you like").
Personally, i've always suspected the basis of any religion that has
what appear to be standards that are absolute one minute and optional
the next... unfortunately too many faiths seem to be based around
arguments which run something like "thou shalt not kill - except when
the person you propose to kill is a member of one or more of the groups
listed in Appendix A, in which case go ahead and smash his skull in..."
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
Smell-enabled Web-page: http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm
Darkmoon
You've made some very good and insightful posts here. It's a shame that
they are almost impossible to read due to the lack of carriage returns. Hit
return after about 60 coloums or so. It makes things much easier to read and
understand for the rest of us. Thanks.
Now to the subject. I agree completely with your point on free will. It
very nicely sums up where I come from in my own beliefs. Can't say it any better.
_~_/ ^^ ~ -\ Till next time,
~~ . ._\ \ Darkmoon aka Gary
^^ -- .___ \ \
^ ~ //// \\ /|_ cbr...@ibm.net
~~ //// / o\__
./||| / =,=> 'He is a dangerous animal
~ |||| / (~~~~ _ as you can see.'
.\\\\\ / \____// - The Price of Admission
~ ^\\\\\ / =====)
- - \\\\\/ / // Surf's up at Huntington!
~~ .. ~~ , ^ ~~~ . .~~ _ ., ~~ ~~ The worst day body-surfing
~ . , . ~~~ _ . . ~~ ^ ~^ ~~ ~~~ . beats the best day working!
~`` ^ - ` ~ . . ` ~~ ` ^
Coyote Osborne
In article <spyder-ya02408000...@news.xmission.com>,
spy...@therianthrope.org (Spyder Witiko) wrote:
> While I'm decidedly non-Xtian, I'm hard put to say what religion I most
> closely feel drawn to. I refer to myself as a pseuod-Taoist, but that
> doesn't even cover it, when you get down to it... I guess the only real
> definite thing I can say is that I'm very spiritual (in the therianthropic
> way) but I have no religious tendancies anymore. And while I've remained
> extremely interested in many 'religions', it always seems that if I
> research it a little more to see some of the meat of it, so to speak, I
> always end up being disappointed and in search once more.
I think that I'd have to say "me too" to al lthe above.
I don't think that it is necessary to have a religion at all in order to be
spiritual. I think I am very spiritual... my main motivations and goals in
life pretty much always take spirit into account first. But I have no
religion. I'm often interested in the faiths of others, but I guess I'm
more interested in philosophies, and how my own might grow and change.
I've never been much for taking a "pre-existing package" whether it comes
to religion or anythign else. A religion or way of life or anything like
that which was made for and by other people just doesn;t draw me. I need to
be on the path that I make for me. That's not to say that I don;t sometimes
oncorporate things I learn from other people and their faiths or lack
thereof into my POV. I do.
Often, of course, I learn from other faiths by looking at them and saying
"yee-uck".
> What I'm wondering and would like to hear from everyone is, why? Why the
> religion or spiritual track that you've chosen? Is it just the one you were
> raised with, or something which drew you in, or something that just
> happened?
I would guess that I'd have to say my spirituality is a result of the
person I am... I don;t follow the faiths or ideas of my family... most of
them aren;t particularly religious anyway.
I need to have _some_ kind of reason to believe things... I don;t take
anything much on faith. I believe in hope, but not faith.
I believe in reincarnation (inasmuch as I believe in anything... I take the
whole universe, or at least my perception of it with a grain of salt), for
instance, because I can recall other lives... mostly utterly boring.. I was
never Cleopatra. <G>
I believe that the earth is alive, because it feels alive to me.
I believe that most "miracles" that people attribute to their religious
beliefs are no more or less than themselves using their own power and not
realizing it. I think this because when I DO see some "miracle" thing
happen that isn;t obviously a fluke or misinterprted by wishful thinkers,
it doesn;t seem to have any boundaries of beliefs or religion or race or
anything.
I don;t mostly believe in any gods I can't touch or see... except maybe as
beings created by peopel to satisfy their own emotional needs.
As far as a "creator of the universe"... dunno if there is one or what
they' be like. I tend to think that peopel really try and pigeonhole a
really big idea into a very tiny mental space, and I'd rather say "i dunno"
and be honest than pretend to myself and others that I have understanding
of what such a being or force (or lack thereof) might be like.
I believe that one should question everything... including themselves.
Unless you think you know every answer... there is no excuse to hold
yourself inviolate from all questions. : ) Same goes for other people. So
while I think I'm pretty clever... <G> I don't think I know it all. And if
someone tells me that THEY do... I want proof. ; )
I don;t believe that good things come to those who wait. I think taht
sometimes yer lucky, but mostly, unless _you_ make a change or effect on
your life, you are the victim of inertia. I think the idea that everythign
will just get "bettter" for no reason is wishful thinking... and the idea
that things'sll get better if you just have faith or whatever was _only_
created to keep peopel from objecting to things they otherwise wouldn't
wanna tolerate.
Frankly... I think that any religion that bases behavior on what other
peopel say... whether they tell you "thou shalt love thy neighbor" or tell
you "thou shalt whack the heathens"... is gonna not be healthy in the long
run. Just IMHO.
I think that each person should consider themselves responsible for their
own behavior, ethics and such... and should be considered so responsible by
others.
In short... I think that if I am a "good person" I should be so because
it's the way I feel... not because I think God or my parents, or anyone
else told me I had to or else.
I don;t think anyone has all the answers... not me... not others... so I'm
gonna look for my own answers to things. And I'll freely update what I
believe as more information becomes available to me. : )
Sorry about the ramble... buy ya asked Spyder! : )
Coyote
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Coyote Osborne
> I also feel He's basically embodied in Nature... I suppose I could
> call Him/Her "Gaia", if I wanted. I don't feel a name is really that
> necessary. I don't feel Gaia demands worship.. probably frowns on
> it... but there's a little bit of me that can't help but want to
> worship something so beautiful and complete. The rest of me says to
> bugger off with that kowtowing crap, but that's just me. :)
Thinking about it... I'd have to say that it is possible to love, respect
or revere someone or something... to hold them sacred, without having to
abase yourself.
It seems to me taht that type of feeling should _not_ be accompanied by a
counter feeling of "well if you are so great, then I must be small".
I will love, respect and hold sacred certain things... but I will not
worship them.
I love my grandmother. I love my friends. I love the peope that I that of
as my family... I don;t worship them either. I can;t respect anyone or
anythign that requires I hold myself below them. I will stand at teh side
of and in the embrace of taht which I cherish, but I will not kneel before
it. And anythign I would consider worth cherishing would never make the
request. <G>
I don't really personify god/goddess/nature/universe all that much... I
have less and less perception of that as a person as one would normally
think... but more and mroe perception of that as a living, feeling thing...
if that makes sense.
Coyote Osborne
In article <1997030918...@step.mother.com>, sett...@pa.mother.com
wrote:
> 1) If the Wiccan Rede wasn't meant to be a law, then what was it meant to
> be?
>
> 2) If it's not a law, or there are no laws, then how can I predict the
> behavior or reliability of someone who believes in Wicca then?
You can'r predict anyone's behavior... regardless of the group they are
part of with anythign approaching total certainty. Yeah... most people in a
group will follow some certain set of basic behaviors... you can bet on
them... but don;t think the bet is a sure thing.
In any case... why feel the need to be able to predict the behavior and
reliability of someone that believes in wiccca or whatever?
What... you want a guarantee? A written contract of social behavior? Good luck.
: )
I'll admit... when I hear someone is a wiccan, or christian or buddhist or
whatever... it does color my perceptions in some ways, sometimes... but...
Geez...
And the wiccan Rede, as I understand it, was meant to be a symbolic ethical
guide... perhaps more soemthign to say to others than to have to say to
yourself. What I personally believe it was meant for was to simply say "If
I ain't hurting you, leave me be and I'll let you be".
I tend to think that the rede isn't all that old, history wise... I'd be
surprised if it actually originated before this century.
Perhaps it is an ideal... not a law... meaing that sometimes you can live
up to it and sometimes not... but ya oughtta try. I'm sure different folks
have different interpretations.
The Nameless One
SPIRITWALKER wrote:
>
> In article <332249...@worldnet.att.net>, The says...
> >
> >Shadowlkr1 wrote:
> >>
> >> It's sad how modern Wicca has become so dogmatic, it is becoming as bad as
> >> Christianity for that.
> >
> >Oh, no. Look, I don't mean to try to supress anyone's opinion or anything
> >like that, but do we have to go back into the Christian bashing again?
> >--
> >
> >>
> I DIDNT WANNA SOUND LIKE I WAS BASHING ANYONE.
> MY DEEPEST APPOLOGIES TO ALL. JUST TRYIN TO GIVE UP SOME INFO
> AN I PUT MY HOOF IN MY MOUTH. SORRY.
That's right, you're new here, aren't you? Sorry about that, really I am,
it's just that we are just getting over a psuedo-flame war of religions,
and the above, while not very inflamming, is pretty much how it got
started. Like I said, you didn't say anything wrong, I just had a little
flashback from before, and thought, "Oh no. Not again." Guess I've been
a little defensive as of late...BTW, there's no need to shout....