Anton LaVey nonsense
Akira
LaVey's ripping off of Lovecraft back in the sixties constitute
copyright infringement? Was anything ever done? Thanks.
Dan Norder
>LaVey's ripping off of Lovecraft back in the sixties constitute
>copyright infringement?
No. Why do you think it would be?
I try to avoid wasting time reading about charlatans, but all he did was make
references to HPL, not reprint all the stories or something like that, right?
>Was anything ever done?
I doubt anything could be done.
--
Dan Norder
Great Halloween masks at www.maskstore.com
Dan Clore
LaVey learned from the unbegotten source what the Great Old
Ones think about this matter when his own performance of
"The Call to Cthulhu" reached the point where "Cthulhu
appears".
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Said Smygo, the iconoclast of Zothique: "Bear a hammer with
thee always, and break down any terminus on which is
written: 'So far shalt thou pass, but no further go.'"
--Clark Ashton Smith
Dclizardking
>LaVey's ripping off of Lovecraft back in the sixties constitute
>copyright infringement? Was anything ever done? Thanks.
>
I wondered that too, La Vey has made a very tidy sum from that nonsense he's
spouted about his Church of Satan or whatever it's called. If only these people
had read a few Lovecraft books, maybe they wouldn't believe all his satanic
nonsense.
Dave Kalis
> I wondered that too, La Vey has made a very tidy sum from that nonsense
he's
> spouted about his Church of Satan or whatever it's called. If only these
people
> had read a few Lovecraft books, maybe they wouldn't believe all his
satanic
> nonsense.
La Vey's been dead since 1997, and I've always been of the opinion that he
intentionally referenced Lovecraft/Long/and others in his attempts to
provide a satirical, almost parody counterpoint to christian zealotry.
Granted, I've never done much research into him or his work. That's probably
because I couldn't possibly care less.
/shrug
Jan Banan
It can be quite hard to find a pattern in LaVey's way of thinking if you read what he's written :) Since "anything may be done to gain welth" (or whatever) it's not that suprising that he used good old Lovecraft.
I didn't answer your question. I'm just speculating. Sorry.
On 22 Sep 2002 12:52:29 -0700
ak...@philipkdick.com (Akira) said something about "Anton LaVey nonsense"
which I vaguely recall as:
Edward Parsons
the air. I don't think anyone would be able to present an ordered front
enough to sue LaVey anyway even if they could create a decent case. Which is
a shame...i'd have liked to have seen him taken down a peg or two.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020922160740...@mb-bg.aol.com...
shonokin
By the time of his death he didn't have much going for him anymore
anyway. They finally tore down his infamous black house, which is too
bad as it was a fun conversation piece.
If you happen to walk by the place at the right time, you could witness
some great silliness. For instance I saw a car pull up and the
passenger dressed in a costum shop devil's outfit jumped out and posed
in front of the house while the driver took a picture.
People's Commissar
"Akira" <ak...@philipkdick.com> wrote in message
news:73e5df97.02092...@posting.google.com...
Matt "TrollBoy" Wiseman
files a while back.. but I can't think of anything from LaVey "ripping off"
lovecraft...
--
Matt "TrollBoy" Wiseman
Webmaster: Shoggoth.net
Site Designer: phpslash.org
The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear,
and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.
-H.P. Lovecraft
---------------------------------------------------------
Please do not resell my e-mail address
to anyone or send me unsolicited e-mail
---------------------------------------------------------
"People's Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote in message
news:uovu6e6...@corp.supernews.com...
People's Commissar
Lavey put into the "Satanic Rituals" - I can't think of anything either.
Dr. Aquino runs the Temple of SET, however, and Set is an entry in the Harms
Encyclopedia! He explained how he wrote those up and there is nothing
taken from HPL in there, as far as I know.
What are Necro Files? Oh, I've been missing stuff lately :( I know the
Encylopedia, both editions.
OH, heh, please see inside. At the bottom.
"Matt "TrollBoy" Wiseman" <trol...@shoggoth.net> wrote in message
news:up1c602...@corp.supernews.com...
> I know they (the current CoS) had some issues with Dan Harms and his necro
> files a while back.. but I can't think of anything from LaVey "ripping
off"
> lovecraft...
>
> --
> Matt "TrollBoy" Wiseman
> Webmaster: Shoggoth.net
> Site Designer: phpslash.org
> The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear,
> and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.
OH YES. I never understood that "fear of the unknown" and can not relate to
that when it comes to anything Lovecraftian or Mythos - HOWEVER, fear for
the unknown future here in the states regarding health care, jobs, wages and
plain old social issues - OH YEAH. It's like DREAD. And it's TOO real!
I'm serious, DREAD. Got any idea how technological Japan is these days?
Awesome. With the economic crap here, jobs vanishing, well? Countries
hating us? Heh.
How's the Shoggoth story thing coming along? I can't find any stories on
your site.
shonokin
mention thinges Lovecraftian on multiple occasions. For instance when
talking about the tunnels underneath the Presidio or Sutro Baths (can't
remember which offhand) he says there are Lovecraftian horrors down
there, etc. (I'm paraphrasing badly as I haven't looked through the
book in a few years, but you get the idea)
So it seems LaVey did at least mention Lovecraft and/or his creations at
regular enough intervals that others (such as Dr Weirde) were taking notice.
Daniel Harms
> files a while back.. but I can't think of anything from LaVey "ripping off"
> lovecraft...
The Church of Satan and I disagreed on something. I talked with the
high priest, and it was cleared up to my satisfaction. I'm saving the
rest for my memoirs, currently scheduled for 2050.
Yrs.,
Dan Harms
http://necronomiconfiles.tripod.com/
People's Commissar
rest put into etext with commentary to explain what it's about) of a run in
that mythos groups of people with genuinely "other" backgrounds (some might
say occult or Hermetic, yeah, they'd say that...) had with that LaVey
organization.
I knew some of these earlier people later on, late 1970's and was in a group
of them later on (SWS and then our own Kishites). I also have a lot of the
collected stuff and finally sat down and typed one of the "Ancient Books"
out myself (what a job) (Aklo Tablets) that never got typed before - and I
also made my own story for it but the story is not on a website. The "Aklo
Tablets" are on a couple of websites. It should be noted that I copied it
notes and all; I did not write it. (Some website has me as the author - no,
correction: I wrote the STORY that goes around it, published in Cthulhu
Cultus "Aklo Tablets" (forgot which issue). I wasn't ever sure where the
original stuff was gotten, but some of it was very recognizable as one of
the oral histories of the cosmos, only very flowery instead of crunched
and/or direct. I just copied it with the notes and all. Apparently, other
people got hold of versions of this and used it (non mythos).
These people had a big run in with the LaVey people. By the time I heard
about it from one person that was involved, it was years later, 1978. In
one of the jpeg's of letters "Zarnak" is mentioning plans to write the Stone
from Mnar - and that was going to be the name of his entire Necronomicon.
I dont' think that ever got done.
Here is the url if you are interested.
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/1972aquinomythos.html
I used to talk to Carter by phone, still have the old phone number in my old
personal book; but at the time, I had no idea who the mysterious Mr. N or
Zarnak were. I saw the recent (comparatively recent) Zarnak tales from
Carter and figured he knew the guy. FUNNY! I didn't realize that HE WAS
Zarnak until recently when I noticed the address on the card in NY.
Chojnicki (in the documents, thick in it) was in the habit of finding a lot
of fiction by authors unfamiliar with the mythos and considering it bonafide
mythos - I remember Carter on the phone disagreeing. He could get pretty
tempered up on this issue, start cursing, etc. over it. I once asked Price
if he knew anything about this, very hedgingly (at the time I asked, Price
was an Evangelical Minister with a church - and he was caring for a very
sick Carter) - but all he seemed to know or say was that Carter had a lot of
occult knowledge. That's it. He did NOT know that the reams of stuff I
used to send him were just a continuation of what everyone used to send to
Carter in the 1960's and early 70's. I think Carter said so much of that
was lost or stolen. Everts HATED Carter. What Everts and/or the guy
(Wilkerson?) at John Hay had to do with any of this, I'm not sure. Phil
and I both think that the John Hay guy was in on it since he referred to
Carter as a Brother, then got all embarrassed faced and shut up. :)
Apparently, some miffs broke out when Carter used people's research in tales
of fiction. He put only his own name on the stories. I assumed this was
the norm. Apparently there was a misunderstanding about that and people
wanted their own names on it, or at least a mention as co-author.
I also typed out (another what a job) the notes on the Deep One related
stuff in ancient lore - that was also hand written with notes all over the
place. It is here:
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/sirius.html
This includes a synopsis of the Xothic stories (with the actual stuff there,
and the repeated book quotes from ancient tomes and reiterations of past
stories left out). It forms a very clear picture that way. And also the
use of the mythos words (which I posted here) is included. There is a LOT
of room for story ideas in this stuff. LOTS.
"shonokin" <shon...@thewoods.log> wrote in message
news:3D91DDF...@thewoods.log...
Dan Norder
>I also typed out (another what a job) the notes on the Deep One related
>stuff in ancient lore - that was also hand written with notes all over the
>place. It is here:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/sirius.html
It's amazing what people with crazy ideas about some supposed hidden occult
knowlege can do when they twist facts to fit their own mindset.
It'd take days just to correct all the errors in the Egyptian section alone.
Anyone document that quotes Sitchin, Temple or Velikovsky as a serious source
of factual information or even brings upon the ancient Dogons knowing about
Sirius B can immediately be discarded.
Here are some links to some factual information:
http://www.csicop.org/si/7809/sirius.html
http://skepdic.com/sitchin.html
http://skepdic.com/dogon.html
http://skepdic.com/velikov.html
For true info about the ancient myths of the world, pick up a book in the
mythology section of a library or bookstore. Avoid the New Age section.
David Harrison
> For true info about the ancient myths of the world, pick up a book in the
> mythology section of a library or bookstore. Avoid the New Age section.
Tell me about it. The 'history' sections of many bookshops seem to
include New Agery half the time. I'd be happier with some honest
labelling, such as a 'Wacko Writer + Wacko Readership = Happy Publisher'
section...
Dave H
--
"When the tough get going, I'll steal their sandwiches."
If you need to contact me direct, please remove the obvious from the
reply address
People's Commissar
Don't blame the messenger. Much of that is from standard stuff, Budge et
al, and tho it focuses on the the Temple stuff (Dogons) and points out where
he's wrong here or there, it's NOT about that at all. This was lumped
under "Deep One stuff" in our files. It was supposed to be information for
fiction.
It doesn't matter if the Dogons knew about Sirius B - and that's debatable;
they may have if Greeks told them (which they ALSO said, Lemnians told
them) - a lot of stuff has happened there since the time the 2 French guys
talked to some of them and years later; but that's no matter - one can find
"the info" from that referenced book. But all of that is irrelevant if you
read the preface to the document (a very good idea).
The point here is that LIN CARTER knew about it. He denied it to Price -
but after he was dead, Price printed an old story Carter wrote and he sure
the hell DID know about it. About what? That the Sirius was really
called Sothis. And no one doubt that it was called this. XOTH? It's a
binary star. So is Xoth in the mythos. Yes! Carter knew all about this -
and he did invent the Xoth twin star stuff. There is a preface with that
whole thing - one must read it to understand the context in which this whole
thing is presented. It's not intended to be some comprehensive thing on any
of these cultures - it's just about Deep One type stuff. Fish stuff.
No one ever wrote a story where the Deep Ones' own name for themselves is
given. How about NOMMO? Why not? How about Oannes? Well, it would be
like N'mho LMAO - or Ouuaaan'hs LMAO.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020925203916...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Dan Norder
>they may have if Greeks told them (which they ALSO said, Lemnians told
>them) - a lot of stuff has happened there since the time the 2 French guys
>talked to some of them and years later; but that's no matter - one can find
>"the info" from that referenced book. But all of that is irrelevant if
>you read the preface to the document (a very good idea).
If it's all irrelevant how come the entire document is a listing of incorrect
information as presented by someone who has fallen hook, line and sinker for
the Sirius B nonsense?
> It's not intended to be some comprehensive thing on any
>of these cultures -
Good, because the information it chooses to cover is riddle with serious
factual errors.
>it's just about Deep One type stuff. Fish stuff.
I didn't see much fish stuff in there. Plenty of incorrect information about a
lot of mythogical figures, but almost no information that relates to fish.
Seems to me that if you were writing about Deep Ones you'd want to use myths
about the sea gods and goddesses, stories about creatures that were fish-like
in some way, etc. There are plenty of good sources for that kind of information
out there.
People's Commissar
in the preface is MYTHOS and use of fish-stuff in ANY mythology, for mythos.
No one particularly gave a damn about the Dogons or their stories. If you
have a beef with Temple, take it up with him. Perhaps the French guys
borrowed from established and KNOWN mythology for some nefarious reason -
who knows or cares. Point is - LIN CARTER KNEW that Sothis was the name for
Sirius when he made up the Xoth planet for Cthulhu. HE KNEW this. It came
out in a story he wrote when he was very young - Price found it and printed
it.
See inside.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020926055237...@mb-bg.aol.com...
> >It doesn't matter if the Dogons knew about Sirius B - and that's
debatable;
> >they may have if Greeks told them (which they ALSO said, Lemnians told
> >them) - a lot of stuff has happened there since the time the 2 French
guys
> >talked to some of them and years later; but that's no matter - one can
find
> >"the info" from that referenced book. But all of that is irrelevant if
> >you read the preface to the document (a very good idea).
>
> If it's all irrelevant how come the entire document is a listing of
incorrect
> information as presented by someone who has fallen hook, line and sinker
for
> the Sirius B nonsense?
Ego projection. The book was a major focus for finally writing all of that
stuff down. The actual Dogon stuff is so peripheral compared to the TONS of
other lore about this "fish" stuff that their story IS irrelevant. But
Temple also wrote a lot about the other cultures, and there is plenty of
fixing what he said showing he was wrong about something in that whole
document.
>
> > It's not intended to be some comprehensive thing on any
> >of these cultures -
>
> Good, because the information it chooses to cover is riddle with serious
> factual errors.
There are NO errors when it comes to the FISH stuff in those cultures or
anything related to Xothic Cycle.
>
> >it's just about Deep One type stuff. Fish stuff.
>
> I didn't see much fish stuff in there. Plenty of incorrect information
about a
> lot of mythogical figures, but almost no information that relates to fish.
Perhaps you missed it - and there is nothing incorrect. Perhaps incomplete,
but not incorrect.
>
> Seems to me that if you were writing about Deep Ones you'd want to use
myths
> about the sea gods and goddesses, stories about creatures that were
fish-like
> in some way, etc. There are plenty of good sources for that kind of
information
> out there.
First of all, I did not write it. Had y ou even read it with
comprehension, you'd know that. I TYPED it. I didn't write a word of it
except the PREFACE. There is a LOT of that in there, that's a very very
long document. Down below all of it, a synopsis of the Xothic Cycle (I
wrote that too) - BIG CLUE that is. Eg, when mentioning Amerind, nothing
else is included except someting Cthullhu-ish. That stuff was compiled AGES
ago. It only just got recently TYPED. The purpose of it is 100% clear in
the preface - to write STORIES.
Aside from that, that article has nothing to do with the subject header
here. The OTHER url does.
Look, bottom line. French guys say this happened. Aside from that, how did
THEY know that stuff about that star since they couldn't see it. There are
a million why's here. Why make up something THAT weird when something more
non-weird could have been made up. Way later on, in comes someone else out
to prove that the French guys just "wanted to give the poor Africans some
civilization or knowledge." Really? I know that Afrocentric studies have
misused this stuff - so what? Who is anyone to believe about who said what
(and you probably read the same way you SNIP)? The 2nd guys didn't talk to
the SAME guys the French guys talked to. Hearsay, all of it. The Oannes
stuff and Berrosus stuff is there, alright. Where did THEY get that stuff
from - Oannes talking to people, all that? Who knows what they meant by
this - or cares. MYTHOS STORIES PLEASE? Lumley utilized some of this stuff
at least. So did Tierney. I am all TOO familiar with the Zimbabwe fiasco -
how for years everyone was told that Zimbabwe was built by Arabs. So they
find Ming Chinese coins and bingo - the Chinese musta build it. No,
actually Africans built it. No one has to GIVE them history - the climate
and changes (not to mention interference) took it from them. I don't care
who to believe, but fish imagery most definitely exist, changing into more
feathered stuff. Stories of Oannes were commonplace. Who knows what it
meant. I don't think humans with gills existed and I 99% am sure we never
got visited by aliens. DO YOU? What the hell were the Oannes - seems like
everyone back then KNEW one. Or someone's grandma WAS one. So what were
they? Who knows.
You seem to have a real stick up your butt about the Sudanese stuff - and I
don't trust it when someone overreacts THAT much to something when the
intention, written thruout the preface, is all too clear. There is a LOT
of stuff in there that's mythos-like - I had the chore of typing it all up
from half scribbles.
People's Commissar
A very major point is that Lin Carter knew that Sirius was called Sothis in
ancient days. Lin Carter is the creator of the Xothic cycle in the Cthulhu
Mythos. Xoth and Sothis are binary stars. The mere fact that "fishman
lore" got connected to Sirius was known to Lin Carter who wrote that Cthulhu
came from Xoth. It is also a fact that many cultures had a fish tradition
involving the Oannes. That is not in doubt. I have to wonder why no one
ever thought to give the Deep Ones their own cultural name; such as "Nommo,"
or perhaps have it spelled "N'mho" or something like that. Obviously, Deep
Ones do not refer to themselves as Deep Ones. These were ideas and pieces
of information about various old cultures that were collected for the sole
purpose of using it for the Cthulhu Mythos. It's not intended to explain
the whole picture or anything else.
Preface on how this compilation of notes came about:
There were Hermeto-Kaballistic, Luciferian, Gnostic, self-admitted Satanists
(by that name), Theosophists - and people interested in what was then a
barely known author of strange fiction, H. P. Lovecraft. This goes back to
before 1963 because at that time, my cousin, an adult, was well involved in
this stuff and I ran into it at that time. These people did what all such
people interested in similar things do: they formed groups, or "esoteric
cults" of their own, meeting in homes, coffee houses, or wherever else.
Many of them gave their group a nice, occult name, too. They collected
information that showed mythological correspondences across cultures with
one strange addition: they collected stories that were written by Lovecraft
and anyone else in a related but invented mythology called the Cthulhu
Mythos. Tracking down these Cthulhu Mythos stories, letters and notes was
not easy back then.
Many of these people knew some of the Dark Tradition also known as the
Eastern Esoteric Tradition (though not in a totally pure form) and many of
the Theosophists linked to these small groups knew the Light Tradition in a
highly confused form but these were pretty good when it came to
cross-cultural information, especially little known Eastern stuff. Back
then, not everyone knew how to type, not everyone owned a typewriter, and
there were no xerox machines or they were not all that available to make
massive copies of personal stuff. Many of them had hand written notes on
many things though, as far as I know, none ever presented the Dark Tradition
in as pure a form as I (Tani Jantsang) have done for over three decades -
and for public sale for more than one decade. Me and my relatives and
friends brought a very pure, Turanian or Central Asian Dark Tradition into
the groups we linked up with.
Understand, this was a lot of fun; it wasn't just serious study. I still
have much of this material, and though it was since then typed from
handwritten copies, it's not in any kind of etext form or on a computer
disc.
UNQUOTE.
QUOTE
One thing of note: while the Dogon story was great for fitting into what
everyone was doing with the Cthulhu Mythos - it also turned out that those
two anthropologists really were legitimate anthropologists and the Dogon
really told them what they told them. They did not know what to make of it,
but they did write everything they said down. That - well - hell - WOW.
Lemnians told the Dogons - but still, even in the 1800's - or 1950's even,
how the hell could the Lemnians have known this stuff they taught the Dogons
about Sirius? That wasn't anyone's concern at the time - everyone was just
collecting lore that was Cthulhu Mythos related. Since then, Afrocentrists
and New Agers have made heaps of hoolah centering around this astounding
Sirius information. But this is not the content of this essay at all. It's
straight myth correlation.
This compilation with the inclusion of H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos
started in earnest at least in 1963; that's as far back as I saw dated
letters and/or little membership cards proudly shown by the group with a
smile.
UNQUOTE
I don't know how much more clear that can be. You deconstructed the intent
away and highlighted something that happens to be a personal gripe. That's
pretty obvious. That you CHOOSE to believe the second group of people over
the first French guys is irrelevant. I don't care who was right. AT ALL.
I don't rely on ancient mythology to write fiction. I created the "Yuggya."
(Not the same as Yuggs). I didn't rely on anything ancient.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020926055237...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Dan Norder
>One thing of note: while the Dogon story was great for fitting into what
>everyone was doing with the Cthulhu Mythos - it also turned out that those
>two anthropologists really were legitimate anthropologists and the Dogon
>really told them what they told them.
What Temple said the Dogon people told the anthropolgists is wrong. Dead wrong.
Anyone is free to read those links provided earlier.
>Lemnians told the Dogons - but still, even in the 1800's - or 1950's even,
>how the hell could the Lemnians have known this stuff they taught the Dogons
>about Sirius?
They didn't. It was made up later. Please go read the links.
>But this is not the content of this essay at all. It's
>straight myth correlation.
No it isn't! That's what I'm trying to tell you. The mythology information
presented in your paper is mostly bogus, false, dead wrong, riddled with errors
-- how many ways do ways do you need this explained to you?
Just as a sampler: You stated that Osiris and Isis myths came first and that,
later, Ra was thought of more as a more powerful and important god. Wrong. Dead
wrong. Quite the reverse in fact. You say that "Typhon" originally fought
against the Egyptian gods and later was thought of as having good qualities.
Again, completely the opposite, Set (his real name, "Typhon" was a Greek
mythical character whose name was much, much later applied to Set but is
largely an incorrect identification since they had so little in common) started
out as a good god and later became considered a bad god who fought against the
others.
As I said in my first reply, it'd take days to go through and correct all the
mistakes in the Egyptian mythology section alone. The information presented on
this page is twisted to try to make the "aliens from the star Sirius came to
earth and taught the Ancients everything they know" theory sound respectible,
and it's not.
If you want real mythology and real correlations between the stories, read real
mythology books. Trying to start off with a base understanding of mythology
from the bad information that the ancient astronaut books provide is like
trying to understand how gorillas react in the wild by watching King Kong. Or,
more accurately, reading a Curious George book with every sentence dissected
and tied to supposed true info from myths about the Great Apes from the movie
Congo and how they relate to Hanuman the Indian monkey god, who was the first
to wear a yellow hat showing the Curious George connection, who sees know evil,
hears no evil, and speaks like Grape Ape. In other words, complete nonsense and
dangerously wrong information for anyone who really wants to learn about
gorillas.
People's Commissar
things. But Typhon was not originally Set at all. And NEITHER is Sutekh.
Some say that the Isis/Osiris was oldest common religion there. Other digs
show that AMUN is the oldest deity there but that's new information.
You can check Te Velde, Budge and even Graves on mythology.
I did not WRITE the paper. Get that THRU your head. It is up there due to
demand. It doesn't even FIT on there considering the rest of the stuff is
wholly unrelated.
There are MANY contradictory stories about single deity concepts in the
ancient world. No ONE view is right. It would depend on the time frame and
on just who recorded the mythology of that time period. There are many
Christians. Ask a Catholic about Mary. Then go ask a Protestant. BIG
difference - and no one has to dig up ancient texts and translate anything
to see the problem with mythology - ANY mythology. See inside.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020927003824...@mb-co.aol.com...
> tanija...@www.com wrote:
>
> >One thing of note: while the Dogon story was great for fitting into what
> >everyone was doing with the Cthulhu Mythos - it also turned out that
those
> >two anthropologists really were legitimate anthropologists and the Dogon
> >really told them what they told them.
>
> What Temple said the Dogon people told the anthropolgists is wrong. Dead
wrong.
> Anyone is free to read those links provided earlier.
I already read them. Again, one group says one thing. Another group says
that the first group was wrong. Choose whomever you wish to believe. The
people that told the original guys are gone. No two Catholics, including
Priests would tell me the same thing regarding some esoteric point in their
religion, eg, about Mary. And a Protestant would say something so different
that I'd think it was a whole other religion. It's hearsay. If the French
had an agenda? Maybe. The two later ones definitely had an agenda.
>
> >Lemnians told the Dogons - but still, even in the 1800's - or 1950's
even,
> >how the hell could the Lemnians have known this stuff they taught the
Dogons
> >about Sirius?
>
> They didn't. It was made up later. Please go read the links.
Sirius was important to the Egyptians - that's pretty damned well known.
Who cares why. Climate and planting things, probably. I already read the
refutations of Temple ages ago. AGES ago. I can refute the entire alien
bs: if aliens had to tell humans how to plant, then which aliens told
Einstein what he knew? Oh, NO aliens? There aren't any aliens. Never
were. There aren't any Deep Ones, either, right? It's ALL mythology, or
didn't you figure that out yet? No matter, what Temple says can be used in
stories. Carter used elements of Churchward's Mu story. So what if that's
also fiction. Imo, ALL myths are fiction. Typhon doesn't exist. Set
doesn't exist. Ra doesn't exist. Tooth fairy doesn't exist.
>
> >But this is not the content of this essay at all. It's
> >straight myth correlation.
>
> No it isn't! That's what I'm trying to tell you. The mythology information
> presented in your paper is mostly bogus, false, dead wrong, riddled with
errors
I disagree. I didn't write it, but most of it was from standard texts on
this - albeit OLDER texts. Much has been unearthed now, eg, about Amun and
Nubian pyramids. Did ya know that Nubians also made pyramids and ruled
Egypt for awhile? Amun has been shown to have been the oldest god in Egypt
by real archaeologists. But this is new information.
> -- how many ways do ways do you need this explained to you?
>
> Just as a sampler: You stated that Osiris and Isis myths came first and
that,
> later, Ra was thought of more as a more powerful and important god.
*I* did not state that. *I* did not state a word on there except the
preface and the Xothic Cycle synopsis at the end and the Hermetic names
stuff. That's IT. Te Velda also has information about the Isis Osiris
common people cult being most popular early on. He reads heiroglyphics. He
IS an Egyptologist.
Wrong. Dead
> wrong. Quite the reverse in fact. You say that "Typhon" originally fought
> against the Egyptian gods and later was thought of as having good
qualities.
*I* would never say that, I didn't write it. What I'd have to say about
Typhon would not belong in that compilation at all. That would be the
NON-Egyptian so-called Egyptian Mystery Tradition (Freemasonic stuff). In
that, Typhon is passion, an aspect of the 4-fold Osiris (Osiris is really
Dionysus in that tradition) and has NOTHING to do with Set. Btw, Sutekh
was a boar god concept that had a LOT in common with Rudra cults. It got
associated with Set.
> Again, completely the opposite, Set (his real name, "Typhon" was a Greek
> mythical character whose name was much, much later applied to Set but is
> largely an incorrect identification since they had so little in common)
I agree. Typhon is not Set. I'd suggest you consult TeVelda if you are
into Set. Or even Dana Reemes.
started
> out as a good god and later became considered a bad god who fought against
the
> others.
Not according to TeVelde. Set was an appelation put on anything we today
would brand "Semitic." TeVelda is an expert. He reads heiroglyphics. He
wrote "Set, God of Confusion." He may have spelled it Seth. Read TeVelde.
>
> As I said in my first reply, it'd take days to go through and correct all
the
> mistakes in the Egyptian mythology section alone. The information
presented on
> this page is twisted to try to make the "aliens from the star Sirius came
to
> earth and taught the Ancients everything they know" theory sound
respectible,
> and it's not.
Wrong. That collection does not agree that ANYONE taught humans ANYTHING
they know.
>
This is what I know about what we had and I wrote this up - and it has
nothing to do with Temple:
SHORT SYNOPSIS OF ENTITIES IN CTHULHU MYTHOS FOR THOSE BORN INTO THE
HERMETIC TRADITIONS. T. Jantsang
Cthulhu: High Priest of the Old Ones who are Outside, that will be unleashed
through the gate which is Yog-Sothoth. I.e., An Obic Priest (center
column). This will result in utter Chaos. Then the Old Ones will walk once
again, where we walk now. When the stars are right or "when the spaces
between the stars are more wide." (The Big Crunch, cf. physics, Penrose)
[HPL]. ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids that came to earth with its
polyp-octopoid-like spawn. [HPL].
OR: Tangaroa or Kanaloa, the octopus god that came to earth from outer space
(EMMA-YA, Mali; Sirius, or SOTHIS, Greek). It fought a war with either
other gods, or its half-brother, and the land it came to sunk beneath the
Pacific. It retains control over sentient swimming creatures. [Derleth,
based on Tangaroa, oldest known Polynesian religion] (Note: HPL--ship that
finds R'lyeh is the EMMA.)
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [HPL's intent, written for Hazel Heald].
OR: A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a binary
star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle, wife
being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: Lin Carter from Churchward's MU-Egyptian
fantasy]
Zoth-Ommog: Alternate spelling "Satomaga" literally means SAT, OM, and AGA.
A title for what Cthulhu itself would be, in HPL's original story: a High
Priest, or AGA, of the "SAT" and "OM" - OM is the Demiurgos, Bahu, the Root.
Center column. Cf. also Ubbo-Sathla. [Hermetic-Tantrik]. OR: Another son
of Cthulhu from Xoth, though alternate spelling is given by this author, who
was occultist enough to know that UB-ASAT are the Demiurge, which he wrote
in "Eibon" story. [Lin Carter]
Ythogtha: Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth. [Lin Carter] - though Lin's
description of this deity or entity is identical to the Ophioneus of
Pythagoreans, or Leviathan. [Hermetic-Hebrew] Ythogtha is in Yhe, he is
the second Yugg deity, along with Zoth-Ommog. E-choc-tah: place of worms,
Amerind.
Ubbo-Sathla: The primordial slime from which all things came to live,
[C.A. Smith]. Demiurge that is linked to Azathoth [Lin Carter] Ialdabaoth,
Child of Bahu, concealed in the OM.
Abhoth: same as Ubbo-Sathla. Literally AB and OTH (father/mother) [Hebrew]
Ubb: Same as Ubbo-Sathla, and/or progenitor of the Yuggs and Yuggya, the
Worms of the Earth. [Lin Carter]. Ubbia, figurative
Italian-Sicilian-Cypriot slang for "Maggot" more akin to "Worm
idol-worship," the Ouroboros or Worm that eats its tail (Ur-Ub, or
Ur-Ob-orus later Serpent). Hermetic sacred symbol representing the Cosmos's
Beginning/End as if seen as One Event, (physics). Likewise, OB, the Asat,
or Azoth, Vortex - oblivion, Karmik eraser. Obeah, same in Voodoo with
Damballah being the Serpent (Voodoo, from Vaudois, French Pythagoreans).
UBer, Old Turko-Tatar - sorcery of the dark kind (Boga is of the light
kind). Ub-Aur, Bulgarian; Ob-Aur, Hebrew: same. Uba or Oba: idol, Mongol.
Yog-Sothoth: The Gate that knows the Old Ones [HPL see above under
Cthulhu]. Yat-Zebaoth [Hermetic-Kaballistic] (HPL's father's brother was
of this tradition, HPL defined Yat-Zebaoth).
Azathoth: Asat-sat, Azoth-zoth. OR Asat, Azoth. 1st: non-being/being.
2nd: non-being, the Kether-Ob-Aur [Hermetic-Kaballistic tradition]
Nyarlathotep: The Soul and Messenger of all the Old Ones. Hermes/Thoth,
Mahakala. In incarnate form, the same as Black God of Sorcerers and
Witches. [HPL, Price & other scholars on this]. Possibly from the Sanskrit
name of this which is Narayana. Ob- and Ka- ran, RAN: chaos. Aspects of
Nyar (T. Jantsang, from Hermetic lore)
Shub-Niggurath: Pan, the Androgyne Goat of Mendes. Nyarlathotep would be
the Real Thing Itself; Shub-N would be as Yig, this force/energy IN LIVING
THINGS, Ubbo-S. would the root of it in matter.
Yig or Yg. The "Y" of "YI" - Serpent of Wisdom. Word means "serpent."
[HPL]
Tsathoggua: toad god [C.A. Smith] Sadogwa, Mali word for an adept of the
SAT, or SOD. Same tradition as related above under Ubb. Sod-ihoh, Hebrew
word for same.
Cthugha: fire elemental from Fomalhaut [Derleth]. Thuggee (India) cult of
Kali sorcerers and actual murderers. Kali is the Black Tongue of Fire in
their tradition.
Nyogtha: earth elemental. Nitthogar, Norse idea of the cthonic portion of
the Tree Yggdrasail.
Ran-tegoth: a monster! Ran-tik-oth, literally "chaos-made manifest-in a yin
manner" Hebrew/Hermetic.
Zhar: definition varies with stories. Zar: Somali, a possessing
demon/sprite. Zarr: tornado causing wind god [Tierney]
Shudde-M'ell: underground squid, one species of Cthonic beings in G'harne
(Africa). [Brian Lumley]
Shuddam-El: Shai-urt-ab, The Worm of Destiny, Apophis, Leviathan.
(Tierney).
Ithaqua: air elemental, the Wendigo [Derleth]. Air god of Borea, another
world [Lumley].
Atlach-Nacha: spider-like web weaver [CA Smith, Lumley]. Agawanaja: weaves
a spider-like web of you. [paintings of Cro-Magnon in caves]
Yibb-tstll: Yggdrasil? "The Black Blood of Yibb-tstll" & Bug-Shash,
Ubot-Shash? in a form that kisses/soul-stealer. Black Blood is kin to
Bug-Shash. [Lumley] Ophioneus, Hellenic.
"The Black Kiss" Kuttner & Bloch, same idea, the kisser is a Yugg-type that
swaps souls, the Yug is not like Bug-shash, but the power it is using is
akin to it.
Daoloth: Render of veils of illusion. THE TAO (DAO) definition of it.
(Campbell).
Other entities, Hydra, Dagon, Byatis, etc., known Classical mythology.
Lloigor: sprites that cause mischief [Colin Wilson], deity related to Zhar
[Derleth].
Aphoom-Zaa: related to Cthugha, caused ice ages. [fanzines]. Rlim
Shaikorth: god of the ice, or the ice itself in ice-age. [fanzines].
These and other names not included here have no "Hermetic" nor any myth base
for their creative invention, such as Othuyeg and/or the Lew Kthew deity
cycles.
Deep Ones: fishlike, or froglike children of Dagon and Hydra and servitors
of Cthulhu, pure, or hybrid with humans. Or, a large classification for all
servitors of Cthulhu (Lumley). Classical Mer-lore and world-wide mer-lore.
HPL and especially Derleth solidified this mer-lore for us.
Yuggs, Yuggya: Worms, and/or worm-folk hybred and tribred with Deep
Ones/humans. (Yugyar, old name of Tatars that lived in "Tartary" before
Ghenghis Khan. Yugyar (also spelled Uighyar) writing written in verticle
columns, is a syllabary. These are known Serpent/Dragon venerating peoples.
Lin Carter knew this. (Yegg-ha, Lumley version of the same, he used his own
spelling for this, though he used the title Leiber intended to use on his
story about the worms, Burrowers Beneath.) Yugg: Lin Carter, Yuggya
worm-folk, T. Jantsang from ideas suggested in HPL's Festival and Carter's
Xothic.
Shoggoths: watchdogs for the Deep Ones, formerly slaves of the Crinoids.
The "Ommith?" (occult lore).
Othuum: leader of the polyp-octopoid Cthulhu-spawn, like Pesh-Tlen [Lumley],
the original Cthulhu spawn [HPL], trapped outside our dimension with MU
[Kuttner]. TOOM: same as Proteus (protons), Egyptian, issued from Osiris in
the form of Noot "The Great Deeps" or BAHU, Demiurge.
Mi-go: Mi-gu Burmese, the Yeti, abominable snowmen.
Tcho-tcho: cho'tger or "cho cho" Tatar/Tibetan dialect. Sorcerer who uses
the Black Flame to harm. kLu - Sacred "Naga" Serpents - Bo"n-po
Kn'yan -gNyan - rock dwelling creatures- Bo"n-po, Mimigwesso - Tierney
gZer-myig - Major Sacred Books- Bo"n-po
Nkai, similar to Naki, Naka, Naga, Ngai. The Nagaloka (pre-Sanskrit and
Amerind).
Sign of Kish and Sigil of Sarnath, literally OUR STAR, Eye, Flame, and Tree
image. Kish is a city in Babylon that warred with Sargon a Priest of Dagon,
historical. Sarnath is where the Buddha gave the Fire sermon of the FIVE
Dharma (truths) shown on our star. Carter and Derleth: Elder Sign. HPL's
Elder Sign was "like a swastika" not our pentacle! 2 points up is the
CORRECT way, HOUSE in center.
Mnar: Na'ur - Altaic word meaning LAKE. Modern version: NOR. All lakes
in the area today are still called "Nor" as in Lopnor, Kokonor, etc.
Hastur: not a Cthulhu Mythos entity, a sherpherd god [Ambrose Bierce], a
force of stagnation and stasis [Robert Chambers] the enemy of Cthulhu
[Derleth], the enemy of all the old ones hinted by saying those that wear
the Yellow Sign are enemies of the Old Ones [HPL]. Ha-Set-Ur - SET in a
Jesus-form - the tyrant deity that tries to be the only deity. Hastur:
Marion Zimmer Bradley, NOT MYTHOS, Hastur is a nice deity. In Derleth, the
enemy of Cthulhu. HPL wanted nothing to do with the Hastur tales or the
people who wrote them.
Dan Clore
> tanija...@www.com wrote:
>
> >One thing of note: while the Dogon story was great for fitting into what
> >everyone was doing with the Cthulhu Mythos - it also turned out that those
> >two anthropologists really were legitimate anthropologists and the Dogon
> >really told them what they told them.
>
> What Temple said the Dogon people told the anthropolgists is wrong. Dead wrong.
> Anyone is free to read those links provided earlier.
If you mean that Temple's account of the anthropologists'
work is inaccurate, you are mistaken. One of the
anthropologists herself vetted the translation that appears
in Temple's work (the other had died by that time).
On the other hand, if you mean that the original work by the
anthropologists is itself inaccurate, there are some good
reasons to believe that it probably is.
One might also point out that a revised edition of Temple's
book appeared in 1998.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
Dan Norder
>I disagree with you.
Why am I not surprised?
>Set was known as Sutekh and Typhon and many other things.
The Egyptians did not know of Set by the name Typhon. Typhon was a Greek
character. Greeks later identified the two rather sloppily, but it'd be a grave
mistake to go along with their misidentification.
>But Typhon was not originally Set at all. And NEITHER is Sutekh.
Yet your page is saying that the original stories have Typhon attacking the
Egyptian gods. As I already said, that's not Typhon it's Set, and those are not
the original stories but rather later ones. Earlier engravings and references
have Set fighting off Apep as the right hand man of Ra and on behalf of the
other good gods.
>Some say that the Isis/Osiris was oldest common religion there.
Not any Egyptologists I'm familiar with.
>Other digs show that AMUN is the oldest deity there but that's
>new information.
Ra/Re is older than Osiris and Isis. Whether Ra or Amun is older is another
topic entirely, but talking about Amun doesn't change the fact that having
Osiris and Isis the focus of the religion is a rather late belief system.
>You can check Te Velde, Budge and even Graves on mythology.
Both Budge and Graves are extremely out of date. Both were also known to make
pretty wild assumptions that turned out to be incorrect. Te Velde is a more
recent author and should have generally more reliable information, but I would
also weigh what he says against what the majority of modern Egyptologists say
before believing any of it.
>I did not WRITE the paper. Get that THRU your head.
Whether or not you wrote it isn't even an issue. You gave out a link and told
people to use it for mythology to base stories on. I said people shouldn't
bother and to research myths themselves to get them right.
>There are MANY contradictory stories about single deity concepts in the
>ancient world.
You certainly don't need to tell me that.
>No ONE view is right.
But if you say such and such a belief is older than another belief, that can be
wrong. Or if you say, they believed this and that and, if that was a
misinterpretation (or fiction), then that is also incorrect.
Saying that there is no one right answer is not the same as saying that all
answers are equally right.
> It would depend on the time frame and
>on just who recorded the mythology of that time period.
Yeah, and the time frames in the page you linked to is all screwed up. And the
people recording most of the "information" on it were people proposing ancient
astronaut theories and not archeologists, folklorists or anyone who knows
anything about mythology.
>There are many Christians. Ask a Catholic about Mary.
>Then go ask a Protestant. BIG difference
To make this an accurate analogy to the information on your page, it's like
your site is saying that Jesus was Mary's father and Mary gave birth to a fish,
and then implied that the fish was really an alien being from the Sirius star
system.
People's Commissar
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020927195430...@mb-me.aol.com...
> tanija...@www.com wrote:
> >I disagree with you.
>
> Why am I not surprised?
>
> >Set was known as Sutekh and Typhon and many other things.
> The Egyptians did not know of Set by the name Typhon. Typhon was a Greek
> character.
I know this. However, when Egypt was ruled by Ptolemies (Greeks) I would
assume they spoke Greek?
Greeks later identified the two rather sloppily, but it'd be a grave
> mistake to go along with their misidentification.
Why can't you "get" one simple thing. WHO CARES if they misidentified
something. That's not the POINT. Yes, they misid...nm. You have a real
thing for Set, eh? Whatever.
>
> >But Typhon was not originally Set at all. And NEITHER is Sutekh.
>
> Yet your page is saying that the original stories have Typhon attacking
the
> Egyptian gods. As I already said, that's not Typhon it's Set, and those
are not
> the original stories but rather later ones.
Thank you. That's the point. Later, earlier, no matter. It's a BUNCH of
notes and it's clearly explained that it's a BUNCH of notes, no references,
and from many places, not all compiled even at the same time, to be used for
fiction ideas.
Earlier engravings and references
> have Set fighting off Apep as the right hand man of Ra and on behalf of
the
> other good gods.
Obviously not relevant to those notes. I know that too - it's in TeVelde.
>
> >Some say that the Isis/Osiris was oldest common religion there.
> Not any Egyptologists I'm familiar with.
They say it was oldest amongst the COMMON people - not the rulers. I can't
give you a source, perhaps in TeVelde.
>
> >Other digs show that AMUN is the oldest deity there but that's
> >new information.
>
> Ra/Re is older than Osiris and Isis. Whether Ra or Amun is older is
another
> topic entirely, but talking about Amun doesn't change the fact that having
> Osiris and Isis the focus of the religion is a rather late belief system.
Some say it's older; some disagree. So?
>
> >You can check Te Velde, Budge and even Graves on mythology.
>
> Both Budge and Graves are extremely out of date. Both were also known to
make
> pretty wild assumptions that turned out to be incorrect. Te Velde is a
more
> recent author and should have generally more reliable information, but I
would
> also weigh what he says against what the majority of modern Egyptologists
say
> before believing any of it.
I'm not into Egyptology, personally - and trying to track down the many
people that had these notes over 20 years ago is not an option; sure the
information they had was dated - so what? I HAVE, however, removed what I
actually did write (which doesn't even relat to that other stuff), from that
document and moved that document into the area marked "FUN." Well, it's not
moved yet - but will be. I also DO mention that Temple's information is
questioned - tho it really doesn't matter when writing fiction. What I
wrote will be a totally separate article now - the Hermetic etc names,
Xothic Synopsis, and a story, Interviews.
>
> >I did not WRITE the paper. Get that THRU your head.
>
> Whether or not you wrote it isn't even an issue. You gave out a link and
told
> people to use it for mythology to base stories on. I said people shouldn't
> bother and to research myths themselves to get them right.
What? You can't begin to "get a myth right" based on some modern
translation, no matter how much you dig such a thing up when it's regarding
something so long dead and buried that NO ONE today has that religion. Are
you kidding? Especially, the ancients used to use a lot of mythopoetry to
say something, they crunched meanings up. Oh, so you mean that, you are
implying that Lin Carter should not have used the WHOLLY FABRICATED legend
of Mu and merged that with Sothis stuff to make up the Xothic Cycle? I
disagree. I like the Xothic cycle. It's FUN - key word. If Carter didn't
outright say where he got those ideas from, people would easily think he
made it up all on his own.
That was a secondary non-pertinent link that you chose to look at. The
actual link that was pertinent to the subject of this thread is another
matter. According to real Egyptologists, there is no such thing as any
Egyptian god named Re or Ra - the pronciations are all wrong.
>
> >There are MANY contradictory stories about single deity concepts in the
> >ancient world.
>
> You certainly don't need to tell me that.
>
> >No ONE view is right.
>
> But if you say such and such a belief is older than another belief, that
can be
> wrong. Or if you say, they believed this and that and, if that was a
> misinterpretation (or fiction), then that is also incorrect.
Not necessarily - that would depend on how you read it. Seriously. Is
Christianity older than Judaism? Well, most would say no. But is
Zoroastrianism older than Judaism? Maybe it is; it's pretty old since those
people left India, inverted the concepts and settled Persia perhaps 6000BC
maybe, according to Harrapan digs. The story of Sosiosh is identical to the
story of Jesus. Last dinner, body of light, host, transubstantiation, the
WHOLE THING. And which is older, the Dagon cult or Judaism? Well, heh -
Dagon cult? The cult of Icthys, Pope's mitre and all.
>
> Saying that there is no one right answer is not the same as saying that
all
> answers are equally right.
No, it's saying that Egyptians down the block disagreed with Egyptians up
the street - just like Catholics disagree with Protestants right now. It's
saying that the masses of actual people there that no one hears about may
have had vastly other beliefes than did the Dictator, er, Pharaoh. And
which one is right? Well, hey, we are talking about mythology. They are
all equall right - and equally wrong.
>
> > It would depend on the time frame and
> >on just who recorded the mythology of that time period.
>
> Yeah, and the time frames in the page you linked to is all screwed up. And
the
> people recording most of the "information" on it were people proposing
ancient
> astronaut theories and not archeologists, folklorists or anyone who knows
> anything about mythology.
Don't presume to say what people that wrote notes believed or did not
believe. You overstep your boundaries when you do that. No, the only
person proposing alien bs was Temple. The rest is written with his
theories in mind and the mythos especially in mind. But wait - wasn't
Cthulhu an ALIEN that came to earth from Xoth, a binary star? NOW do you
get it? Maybe you just can't get it.
>
> >There are many Christians. Ask a Catholic about Mary.
> >Then go ask a Protestant. BIG difference
>
> To make this an accurate analogy to the information on your page, it's
like
> your site is saying that Jesus was Mary's father and Mary gave birth to a
fish,
> and then implied that the fish was really an alien being from the Sirius
star
> system.
You read it that way because there is no attempt to put it in some kind of
order. I did say I was typing notes written ages ago. There may have been
Christians that believed that. For instance, there were Christians that
believed that Jesus was Set. It's called the Sethian Heresy. That would be
in line with what Manetho, a man that was back there at the time, wrote
about Israelites and Ishmaelites springing from the loins of Set.
Who cares about Set? Set is not Cthulhu.
People's Commissar
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3D94AAF4...@columbia-center.org...
> Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
People's Commissar
fast :) Cthulhu musta sent me an html sense impact, LMAO. Ia! Cthulhu
hm'tl.
The preface now reads like this (below) - and we have 4 better essays (I had
this before) on the issue of the Dogon story - not just urls - we have the
entire essays - these are now at the end of the article. The Xothic and
Interview will be elsewhere in an approrpriate place - that's not done yet,
nor is this moved into the section called FUN (I can't seem to do
that.....webmaster will have to do that) considering that that particular
essay was 100% peripheral to anything else of ours.
Begin quote.
The notes on this collection were taken at least starting in the early
1960's. They may be outdated, they might not be in any kind of chronological
order except to try to separate it into various places. I typed it due to
demand from people to see it. The PURPOSE of the notes originally was to
correlate mythemes in history to the Cthulhu lore in the Cthulhu Mythos in
order to get ideas for stories. Stories equal fun. Key word. No one involved
in any of this believed that aliens ever visited the planet earth. Man
doesn't need aliens to tell him that E equals mc squared.
Suggest reading Robert Temple's book, "The Sirius Mystery." Please DO NOT
get all over this document due to the debate over whether or not the Dogons
knew any of this stuff about Sirius. It doesn't matter. The point is,
someone invented the myth and we are dealing with mythology, here. All of it
is invented by someone! There is doubt as to the accuracy of the original
information that Temple relied upon regarding the Dogon people - and all of
that Dogon information has been taken over by the Afrocentric school in
order to say some pretty absurd things.
Please see the end of this compilation of notes for refutations of Temple's
sources and his theories. The unbiased observer realizes that all of it
amounts to hearsay and no conclusion can really be arrived at. What I mean
by that is this: I don't know if the Dogon of Mali (Africa) had this myth or
knew about Sirius or not. It is well known that the Egyptians based
calendars on Sirius. I don't know if the Dogon had tales of Gods from the
skies visiting Earth, but a modern anthropologist might interpret that as
"aliens." What is in doubt is the very idea that the Dogons ever told anyone
this legend and whether they ever knew about Sirius. That's a non-issue.
Whether it's an issue of white people wanting to invent ancient knowledge
for Africans or white people wanting to deny they had any ancient knowledge
is not our concern. Did aliens ever visit earth? Who knows. If they did,
they did not HAVE to each humans anything. Humans can figure things out on
their own just fine. Aliens didn't teach humans how to make modern
technology - GREAT POINT.
All of that is irrelevant to this information being presented. The Dogon
story as related by Temple is presented here. Also, much information about
the ancient world, including Egypt, and India has come to light in much more
recent times. This below was written a LONG time ago and I simply typed it
up since there was a demand for it. Don't shoot the typist. Don't quibble
with mythology - it's only mythology.
A very major point to this is that Lin Carter, a great Lovecraftian and The
Man at Ballantine Books, knew that Sirius was called Sothis in ancient days.
He was also very aware of Churchward's Mu fabrication. Lin Carter is the
creator of the Xothic cycle in the Cthulhu Mythos. Xoth and Sothis are
binary stars. The mere fact that "fishman lore" got connected to
Sirius/Sothis was known to Lin Carter who wrote that Cthulhu came from Xoth.
In order to connect "fishmen" (Deep Ones) to Sirius/Sothis (hence the Xothic
Cycle), he had to have known about the Sirius story and the Dogon. It is
also a fact that many cultures had a fish tradition involving the Oannes and
the Egyptians had a Sirius based calendar. That is not in doubt. What
Cthulhu Mythos writers can make out of this combination of tid bits is a
whole New Story. And that is FUN. Key word.
I have to wonder why no one ever thought to give the Deep Ones their own
cultural name; such as "Nommo," or perhaps have it spelled "N'mho" or
something like that. Obviously, Deep Ones do not refer to themselves as Deep
Ones. These were ideas and pieces of information about various old cultures
that were collected for the sole purpose of using it for the Cthulhu Mythos.
It's not intended to explain the whole picture or anything else.
This compilation with the inclusion of H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos
started in earnest at least in 1963; that's as far back as I saw dated
letters and/or little membership cards proudly shown by the group with a
smile. These were from the Societas Selectus Satanas (and by the way, they
used the Baphomet in 1963), out of Queens, NY back then. The first group I
was associated with in 1969, through an older friend and relative, was
called the Starry Wisdom Sect. They used a symbol that looked like a diamond
shape with rays coming out of it and a curvy crossed Vajra inside it. All of
these were casual friends, people from lodge backgrounds, Kaballists,
Theosophists, Witches, self-identifying Satanists, Gnostics, and backgrounds
similar to mine (Eastern Esoteric Tradition) that used to hang out and get
into this, I think that the Temple of Set (Dr. Michael Aquino's group) would
probably call these small groups of friends, Pylons. In 1974 we formed our
own little group of about 20 people, the Kishites. That name was not yet in
any Cthulhu Mythos stories, but we used it anyway. Keep in mind, that's a
lot of people to have over your house at one time. So groups soon split off
and took up new names: The Dholes, the Shantaks, the Voormi, etc., names
from the Cthulhu Mythos that weren't already being used by another group.
The Societas Selectus Satanas at this time was out of McKeesport, PA and
consisted of mostly college students. Xerox machines made this a lot easier.
In case anyone is interested, Satanic Reds is the Kishites with exclusive
emphasis on the Pure Dark Tradition, no inclusion of any fiction, and
politics! And we are not super secretive as were these other groups for
traditional reasons and for copyright reasons.
What This Is:
This is a compilation of notes serving to isolate that which is in the Fish
Tradition or Sirius Mystery, from the other traditions that have more in
common with the Dark Tradition. It is a series of notes separated by culture
and referenced using the book "The Sirius Mystery" as the main reference
(serious occultists didn't tend to reference things they noted down - so I
am going to assume the rest of what is not referenced or related to Robert
Temple's book, "The Sirius Mystery," is known by readers - I realize this is
a large assumption...). Some of the information is outdated; thus it might
be wrong or it might still be right. (Which Christianity is right? There are
many opinions and that's not a study that needs archaeologists to figure
out). This would also separate the Fish Tradition from the Light Tradition
that always managed to degenerate into Sun Cults or worse, Solar Phallic
Cults where they would dualize the Light as the good and make the Dark into
the evil and where they also demonized or exploited women in a patriarchal
manner, too. In a sense, one can see a trend from it.
The entire "twin sons Light and Dark" in some cultures is pure Fish
Tradition and refers specifically to twins at odds with each other -
dualism. This tradition is wholly unrelated to the Dark Tradition where you
can see the Yin/Yang symbol which is actually a symbol of
dark-becoming-light and light-becoming-dark in an ever flowing balance. The
two are not related AT ALL. Both were esoteric traditions, too. With the
idea/knowledge that all stars (and all cosmos) came out of the chaotic
darkness, the stars become "sons" of the chaotic darkness or abyss or "the
deeps" viewed as a Mother Goddess. Many people in the ancient world had
names of gods and goddesses that were also names of planets and stars. (Why
the name for the Sun was also the name for Saturn in many places is another
mystery.) With the people having only the Light Tradition, dualism was
easily mixed up with the Fish Tradition. The mytho-religious symbology must
be already known to understand what I'm saying in such a crunched manner
here.
We (the org represented on this website) have our stuff (Dark Tradition) in
order; this has nothing to do with the Dark Tradition or anything serious.
The Light Tradition is also originally part of the Dark Tradition (the Light
burns IN the Darkness). This fish tradition, or in fact the entire pagan
tradition with their gods and planets and sons of gods and semi gods, is
wholly separate except for the dualistic confusion it may have caused with
the Light Tradition peoples, the Sun cults or even the Logos Cults that
demonised the Darkness. One need only look at Christianity to see the Light
tradition mixed together with the Fish tradition! It's under everyone's
nose. The real Priests of Dagon of old wore a mitre headdress and the
Catholic religion uses this same design on their headdress! Jesus is Icthys
and he is also the Light. Anything of Darkness is demonized. There is a good
example of Fish/Light and dualism.
The mythopoetic method, especially in the esoteric schools, involves layers
of meaning; the literal meaning being only for the fools. This can be seen
with this example I'll use with Cadmus, a Dagon cultist who sets off for
Greece. Getting there, he erects his fish temple and the myths are all abut
his fifty warriors, fifty this and fifty that; the number fifty being
important in all the Fish Traditions. That refers to the star Sirius, the
orbit, etc. 50 years. Then Cadmus has a change of heart and decides he wants
to join the dark mother cult of Athena. So what happens to all of Cadmus's
myths about 50 warriors? Well, the myth says a Serpent comes up against the
50 warriors and they fight each other - and of course, 5 are left loyal to
Cadmus. Five is always the number involved in the Dark Tradition, especially
the Eastern-rooted traditions. So, having erased his own myths from the
Dagon cult, he now joins up with the dark cult with a new myth to back up
his conversion. If Cadmus further told us that a Bright Warrior slew the
Serpent and seven new warriors sprang up, it would be saying that he left
the Dark Mother cult and joined up with one of the Light Tradition cults.
A note to newcomers: Too bad LaVey was never involved in any of this, and
didn't know any of it. If anything, he foolishly turned these types of
people completely off with his heavy handed trashing of the politics of the
day (tolerant politics). He'd have at least given people FIVE "crown princes
of Hell" instead of the Christian imitation of four. It should be known that
Nemo who has the Temple of the Vampire was probably shown a copy of this
material in here since I, early on, 1990 or so, xeroxed it in its
handwritten form for Gilmore of the CoS to give to Nemo. Nemo was familiar
with the Sirius Mystery - we talked on the phone and he said this. I also
wrote him a very long letter (never kept a copy) all about this. He made up
a lot of his Vampire lore using this Sirius lore as the model.
This is a real KEY to mythopoetic forms: 50 is always Fish or Oceanic. 7 is
always Light or Logos tradition. 5 is always Dark esoteric Tradition. 5
inside of 7 is the older pure Dark Tradition with the Light contained within
it. 3 is the later trinity type cults. Dark versus Light are the dualistic
Solar cults. When cults and cultures were usurped - wiped out more or less -
the older traditions got co-opted and often inverted by the conquerors and
altered to fit their own mythemes. E.g., there are almost no traces of the
previous matriarchy - patriarchy wiped it out. The same goes for about 90%
of what was once in the Library of Alexandria - it was destroyed by the
conquering and usurping cult of Christianity who, nonetheless, still
celebrate those older pagan holidays with new stories to tell about why they
celebrate. The Tau was once the symbol of the Mother Goddess in her wrathful
form. Now it is a symbol of Jesus Christ, something comically the opposite
of the original.
There is a recognizable pattern from the most ancient days on up to more
familiar times that indicates to anyone familiar with this that cultural
trends and groups of people replaced what was there. Aside from the numbers
I've shown as a key, all fish or scale motifs were replaced by bird and
feather motifs, sometimes showing a transition where both exist together.
The Dark Tradition incorporates the Light Tradition within it, and the Light
spoken of is the Vajra within, the inner Logos; but that got replaced by Sun
Cults worshiping literal light and often condemning the darkness. The
earliest people were matrilineal if not outright matriarchal; usually water
played an important part and so did the literal earth (ground). The Solar
cults were patriarchal and tended toward sky gods.
Abbreviations:
Fish Tradition = FT
Dark of Void Tradition = DT
Light or Vajra Tradition = LT
Cthulhu Mythos of H. P. Lovecraft and others = CM
CONTENTS:
Dogon Tribe - pure Sirius Fish Tradition (the veracity of the original
document Temple relied on is in question - but that does not matter: this is
still a story, a MYTH).
Egyptian, intermixed with the DT and with Sirius, Set/Osiris being Sirius,
but Apap and such other entities being DT. (Based on older information on
Egypt).
Sumerian
Babylonian
Greek, synthesized many elements as many of these different cults and
peoples were in Greece.
Hindu
Jewish-Hebrew
Early Christians
Gnostic, Chinese, Polynesian, Persian, American Indian
Cthulhu Mythos (what the SSS was all about! The SSS used the Baphomet in
1963 at least). No other group used it. This section is included since some
of the original Lovecraft Circle, and definitely the SSS people involved in
the Cthulhu Mythos, knew this lore and the various traditions inside out and
definitely put what they knew in their stories. This is the reason why so
many people read the Cthulhu Mythos and think "this stuff is real." It was
deliberately done. For this reason, we have included the Cthulhu Mythos
section in an otherwise serious essay of comments on the Sirius Lore.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020927195430...@mb-me.aol.com...
Dan Clore
>
> OH, thanks for reference. Can you summarize what the revised book says?
Most of it is pretty much the same. The new first chapter is
on-line:
http://www.lunaranomalies.com/temple.htm
I'm afraid that Temple overstates his case when he says that
the existence of Sirius C has been confirmed. The actual
article he refers to is on-line here:
http://adsbit.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1995A%26A...299..621B&nosetcookie=1
The article merely shows that there *could be* a Sirius C,
not that there actually is one.
The book also gives a note saying that Temple's replies to
his critics are available to book reviewers. This material
should have been included in the book itself (or at least
somewhere the general public get at it).
Dan Norder
>Well, hey, we are talking about mythology. They are
>all equall right - and equally wrong.
So your arguments are:
1) It is right!
2) I don't care if it's not right, I didn't write it.
3) It's not supposed to be right, it's supposed to be used for fiction writing.
4) Everything is equally right even if it's wrong.
And if you honestly believe that last part you might as well lock yourself up
before you hurt yourself or others, because that shows a pretty screwed up
brain at work.
So, to sum up, if you want accurate information about mythology do not under
any circumstances use the notes that this guy posted.
If you want completely fictional nonsense to base stories off of.... well, I'd
make completely new mythical characters up or research real myths before I'd
use the bad information about real myths in a story. It really ruins the
suspension of disbelief when a reader realizes that the author tries to base
plot on real myths and can't get any of it right.
People's Commissar
claimed that Yog-Sothoth was the Jewish God and that it now lives in Mt.
Sinai?
And that Lin Carter should NOT have relied on this Sirius/Mu lore to create
the Xothic Cycle.
What you are doing is trying to tell people what they SHOULD write as
fiction. Heh heh heh.
You need to get a real grip on reality, buddie: MYTHOLOGY IS ALL BULLSHIT,
no matter when or where it was invented.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020928175049...@mb-fd.aol.com...
He wrote a rant over nothing.
People's Commissar
choice, imo. People believe God made them out of clay - is not God an
alien?
But without bothering with ancient stuff, one can deduce from modern
technology that we don't need aliens to achieve anything we achieve. I
can't write in HTML, I have no clue how, I never did it, everyone knows I'm
an old puter idiot that can't do any of this stuff. Yet I just did it. No
one showed me how, not even another human :)
So, humans don't need help from aliens. No one involved in writing any part
of the article we have up there believed in any of it; and over 100 people
begging us to type if out and put it there kinda outweighs the whines of one
critic - but some people (notably Carter) definitely USED this stuff to
create what I think is a wonderful addition to Cthulhu lore. I know some
folks hate Carter, but I liked him and his tales.
It's not up yet (webmaster on vacation and I can't put front page stuff up;
or at least, I can't see how to do it no matter what I try; perhaps I need a
program I don't have) but the entire Xothic Story will be up there under a
new heading - that's the naked xothic story minus the reams of repitition
Carter used (which made his tales very long and hard to understand for many
who wonder where the story is), repitition of "quotes from The Books" and
reiterations of the last story he wrote. When you read this tales all at
once, and not years apart (which required reiteration) it gets very
repititious. So the naked Xothic Story will be up there. Also, along with
that, Interviews WITH the Other Nations - which gives a person the various
views of this Cthuhu stuff, from the mouths of characters (not Abdul... or
anyone against Cthulhu). It will be up - is not up yet.
Meanwhile, Sirius was changed so the typist doesn't get shot at. Will be
moved to a more appropriate section.
All mountains and reams of proof aside: I have to say I Do Not Know, when
it comes to those Dogon folks. Did the French invent history in order to
"give" Africans this knowledge or connect them some way to Egypt (Sirius
based calendar)? Or did the later people downplay it, refute it, in order
to "take it away?" I don't know. The the Dogon lie to the second group
since esoteric doctrines got plastered all in a book? Who knows. Everyone
knows what "probing agenda-ridden questions" can get in terms of answers.
Am I to believe that ONLY the French did this and that the later researchers
did not? Heh. I don't think so. In reality, both things have been done
regarding Africans. I don't know - I have no opnion despite "reams of
proof." I've seen reams of proof for a lot of things - heh - like oh, CFR?
JFK's assasination? etc etc.
Just as Temple didn't have Asimov's entire quote, we may not be seeing
entire texts either. And did Asimov actually say that; or did he change it
later on and claim he said it? I can't see that any of it matters in the
least. (It's not the electric bill!) The issue is over whether aliens
visited earth? And all this time I thought it was just an issue over
mythology that Dogons may or may not have known.
Yes, he definitely should have included his answers to critics - or put them
on a website.
TJ
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3D955319...@columbia-center.org...
> Lord Weÿrdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
RobStoll
>Thanks. Yeah, well if Temple wants to believe in aliens - that's his
>choice, imo. People believe God made them out of clay - is not God an
>alien?
Please, can we refrain from real-world religion bashing on this newsgroup?
Saying that God is an alien is an inflammatory statement that could be
construed as offensive by some people here. There's no need to lump all
religion in with crackpots.
Robert
Dan Norder
>So then, what you are saying clearly is that Dick Tierney should NOT have
>claimed that Yog-Sothoth was the Jewish God and that it now lives in Mt.
>Sinai?
I haven't read that, but so far it doesn't include any screwed up info like the
dreck you are trying to push on people.
People can write whatever they want. It's just if they want to try to include
any information about real world beliefs they should not totally screw them up
like the info on your site.
If Tierney had said Y-S was the Jewish god as revealed in the Old Testament
tale of when Goliath sunk Noah's Ark and became the high priest of Islam and
Y-S smote him by turning him into a pillar of mustard, then you'd have a
comparable situation to people trying to base stories off the comedy of errors
you posted.
[other stupid examples removed]
>You need to get a real grip on reality, buddie: MYTHOLOGY IS ALL BULLSHIT,
>no matter when or where it was invented.
You seem to be approaching this from your own personal disdain and not a from
looking at how cultures view the world.
Further, when people make reference to beliefs about mythology and legends in
fiction, they are not saying that the facts contained in those stories are
literally true (well, except for people like Temple who really believe aliens
walked about under the guise of mythic beings) they are including them for
historical purposes and the possibility that some of it might be true within
the realm of their fiction.
To completely massacre mythological beliefs in a story is the same as writing
fiction that is supposedly based upon historical events and gets them
completely backasswards, or as supposed hard sci fi that doesn't get any
science right. It's like writing a story about how Leonardo DaVinci was
Alexander the Great's father and they discovered helium and burned off the
highly flammable gas over Istanbul, prompting the first great pilgrimage to
Mecca, the city underneath Lake Victoria.
But then if you want to rant and rave about how mythology is all wrong no
matter who believed what and therefore completely made up information presented
as facts is OK, fine, go ahead. All I wanted to do is point out that the info
you posted is complete dreck written by someone who doesn't understand
mythology. If you say, "Yeah, that's right, who cares?" then we agree upon the
facts.
People can choose to read your page or ignore it as they wish as long as they
are informed about the gross inaccuracies of the information presented on it.
Dan Clore
> Just as Temple didn't have Asimov's entire quote, we may not be seeing
> entire texts either. And did Asimov actually say that; or did he change it
> later on and claim he said it? I can't see that any of it matters in the
> least. (It's not the electric bill!)
Temple had sent Asimov a pre-publication copy, hoping for a
blurb. When he called Asimov, Asimov just made some
non-comittal remarks about it, and Temple finally asked him
if he had found any errors. Asimov answered something like
"No, I found no errors." and Temple used that on the
first-edition cover. Since Asimov complained, the quotation
was removed from reprintings and subsequent edition.
As to Lin Carter's Xothic cycle, I wonder if Clark Ashton
Smith's "dark star Zoth" might not be a source? It shows up
in his "Family Tree of the Gods"
(http://www.eldritchdark.com/wri/non-fict/other/family_tree_of_the_gods.html
) as origin of Tsathoggua's fissionary grandparent
Ycnnagnnisssz. This essay appeared in _The Acolyte_ in 1944,
in _The Shuttered Room and Other Pieces_ in 1959, and in the
Smith collection _Planets and Dimensions_ in 1973.
People's Commissar
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020929203810...@mb-fj.aol.com...
> tanija...@www.com wrote:
> >So then, what you are saying clearly is that Dick Tierney should NOT have
> >claimed that Yog-Sothoth was the Jewish God and that it now lives in Mt.
> >Sinai?
>
> I haven't read that, but so far it doesn't include any screwed up info
like the
> dreck you are trying to push on people.
Yup, lots of info from Dick Tiernry on Gnosticism in the Gitta stories (half
wrong, so what) - and lots on the Jewish Biblical stuff (all wrong, so what)
for his version of Yog Sothoth. You need to understand something - mythos
writers are REWRITING the history and telling us ahem ahem, what "really
happened!" You see, the Titanic didn't sink. It was taken thru a Gate by
the Cthulhu spawn and then later returned. Carter obviously used the
Sirius/Mu lore. He even admitted using the Mu lore. A story he wrote as a
young writer got published after he died showing he most definitely knew
about the Sothis stuff: XOTH, where Cthulhu came from. A binary star and
all that.
>
> People can write whatever they want. It's just if they want to try to
include
> any information about real world beliefs they should not totally screw
them up
> like the info on your site.
OH, aren't you the censor? What I have up there NOW includes all the
refutations - AND Temples statement back. I'm doing what? PUSHING
something on someone? Um, I don't think so. You'd ban it and deprive
anyone ELSE from reading it for themselves? Sorry, that won't fly. Let's
see, how accurate is Star Gate SG 1? How about heh, the Mummy 1 and 2 and
King Scorpion? How about Xena, LMAO. You have no idea if "real world
beliefs" included the information referenced on there since it's old
information (that is, information prior to revision). You weren't there.
It clearly states that all of it is RELATED TO what Temple wrote - and the
MYTHOS. Listen carefully: Temple and the Mythos.
>
> If Tierney had said Y-S was the Jewish god as revealed in the Old
Testament
> tale of when Goliath sunk Noah's Ark and became the high priest of Islam
and
> Y-S smote him by turning him into a pillar of mustard, then you'd have a
> comparable situation to people trying to base stories off the comedy of
errors
> you posted.
Tierney says a lot more than that silliness about Goliath or some mythical
arc. Tierney's stories are EXCELLENT. The Winds of Zarr is where he did
that. And the rest is in his EXCELLENT Simon of Gitta stories. Who cares
if his Gnosticism is wrong. The entire Simon series is about Simon Magus
and Helen. Well OF COURSE it's wrong - it's Cthulhu Mythos.
You have a choice, buster. DO NOT READ IT.
>
> [other stupid examples removed]
>
> >You need to get a real grip on reality, buddie: MYTHOLOGY IS ALL
BULLSHIT,
> >no matter when or where it was invented.
>
> You seem to be approaching this from your own personal disdain and not a
from
> looking at how cultures view the world.
I had no distain until you bustered on here acting all nuts over nothing!
Heh, I'm from one of those alternate cultures so please, spare me the
attempts at "academics" here.
>
> Further, when people make reference to beliefs about mythology and legends
in
> fiction, they are not saying that the facts contained in those stories are
> literally true (well, except for people like Temple who really believe
aliens
> walked about under the guise of mythic beings) they are including them for
> historical purposes and the possibility that some of it might be true
within
> the realm of their fiction.
And what's on there is written IN LIGHT OF Temple's theories and the Mythos.
Period. It even tells people to be familiar with his book.
>
> To completely massacre mythological beliefs in a story is the same as
writing
> fiction that is supposedly based upon historical events and gets them
> completely backasswards, or as supposed hard sci fi that doesn't get any
> science right.
You mean like the Mythos? Bwhaha! Gotcha there, fella. Let's see - what's
a Gate? Is it an ID portal? Worm hole? What is it? Well, it's in the
mythos. Who cares if a writer massacres mythological beliefs (as Ann Rice
did? How about Brian Lumley in Necroscope - Bram Stoker is turning in his
grave, eh?) It's called ENTERTAINMENT. The entire Sirius file relates to
1. Temple's stuff and 2. the Cthulhu Mythos. All of it starts from there.
Yeah, aliens? None of the contributors believes in aliens, but: What's
Cthulhu? An alien? Yes? Cthulhu and his spawn came here from a BINARY
STAR called Xoth? Please. Get hip with the mythos or shut up. Do you
think anyone believes any of it? Hey, it's called FUN. You have a major
clenched heart and bug up your butt about it? Fine! DON'T READ IT.
People hate censors, you know?
It's like writing a story about how Leonardo DaVinci was
> Alexander the Great's father and they discovered helium and burned off the
> highly flammable gas over Istanbul, prompting the first great pilgrimage
to
> Mecca, the city underneath Lake Victoria.
>
> But then if you want to rant and rave about how mythology is all wrong no
> matter who believed what and therefore completely made up information
presented
> as facts is OK, fine, go ahead. All I wanted to do is point out that the
info
> you posted is complete dreck written by someone who doesn't understand
> mythology. If you say, "Yeah, that's right, who cares?" then we agree upon
the
> facts.
No, it was written (for anyone else who has the eyes to read and not leave
out half the information) with TEMPLE'S BOOK and the MYTHOS in mind. At the
TIME it was written, Temple's book wasn't all that well known.
>
> People can choose to read your page or ignore it as they wish as long as
they
> are informed about the gross inaccuracies of the information presented on
it.
The only accuracies are comparisons with the Mythos. Uh, yeah, anyone that
can read would KNOW that straight up.
People's Commissar
look that up in Harms.... hmm, doesn't say much. Well, the only problem
with that is that Carter didn't say anything about Tsathaggua. Harms does
cross ref it to Xoth. I know this much, Carter being how he was - if he
intended to use Smith's Zoth, he'd have made up the Xothic cycle to fit
Tsathoggua. Carter was a real stickler for sticking to already-made mythos.
Yet he did not do that, which is wholly out of character for him.
I know that Carter did write a story that was published in Crypt of
Cthulhu - and he clearly knew the Sirius stuff - or specifically, he knew
that Sirius was called Sothis in the ancient world (I have no idea if he
knew about the Dogon myth). That Sirius was called Sothis is pretty well
known anyway in some circles. That story turns out to have been written
when Carter was quite young. Normally, it might not even be consisered
mythos except for the reference in there. I forgot name of story, but it
was one of the ones Price dug up when he was printing up Carter stuff long
after he died. Is there some kind of thing online where one can punch in a
name and get stories with that name in them listed? Hope so :)
But consider Carter's Xoth: it's a binary star. Cthulhu and his spawn came
from there to earth and ruled R'lyeh and immediately ruled over (or
created?) the Deep Ones. Combine that with the Mu fantasy: Cthulhu is like
Osiris, Iddyah (spelling) is like Isis. Carter said something similar to
that in one of the older Crypts, too. I was not familiar with Churchward -
so I remember this - he got some of it from there. But Xoth and Sothis?
Both binary stars? And he didn't say Itaqua came from there or Tsathoggua
came from there (which he definitely would have done had he had the Smith
reference in mind); he said Cthulhu and Cthulhu's 3 sons were the Xothians.
Also, is Xoth pronounced Zoth or Shoth? Or Khoth? The "x" can go either
way. I say "z."
Ever notice (new idea) Voorlans - those kinda octopoid unknown matter aliens
on Babylon Five - and Vhoorl, the planet where Kathulhn came from?
See inside.
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3D97AD71...@columbia-center.org...
> People's Commissar wrote:
>
> > Just as Temple didn't have Asimov's entire quote, we may not be seeing
> > entire texts either. And did Asimov actually say that; or did he change
it
> > later on and claim he said it? I can't see that any of it matters in
the
> > least. (It's not the electric bill!)
>
> Temple had sent Asimov a pre-publication copy, hoping for a
> blurb. When he called Asimov, Asimov just made some
> non-comittal remarks about it, and Temple finally asked him
> if he had found any errors. Asimov answered something like
> "No, I found no errors." and Temple used that on the
> first-edition cover. Since Asimov complained, the quotation
> was removed from reprintings and subsequent edition.
Well, I didn't really know that the hoolah over this was "aliens visiting
earth." I thought the major hoolah was over whether or not the Dogon people
have any such mythology. I'm not familiar with Ufo-ology, but I'm pretty
familiar with Afrocentrism and do see WHY it goes on. Maybe they did; maybe
they didn't. If Temple thinks aliens visited earth - well, I disagree with
him. Can I prove it? Um -- heh - NO. Can anyone?
>
> As to Lin Carter's Xothic cycle, I wonder if Clark Ashton
> Smith's "dark star Zoth" might not be a source? It shows up
> in his "Family Tree of the Gods"
>
(http://www.eldritchdark.com/wri/non-fict/other/family_tree_of_the_gods.html
> ) as origin of Tsathoggua's fissionary grandparent
> Ycnnagnnisssz. This essay appeared in _The Acolyte_ in 1944,
> in _The Shuttered Room and Other Pieces_ in 1959, and in the
> Smith collection _Planets and Dimensions_ in 1973.
See above on that. I'm serious about Lin - he was a - FANATIC - about
that. He'd get into an argument over such things. He'd included every
name, every servitor or ally race, even every group (such as the Kishites :)
that anyone ever used if he knew about it. I would be 100% sure that if Lin
intended to use the Smith Zoth- he'd never have turned away from Tsathoggua
and made the whole Xothic cycle about another Ole One. Tsathoggua doesn't
even exist in the Xothic Cycle. That would almost be a smack in Smith's
face - and there is no way Carter would do that!
Someone hopefully can remember the name of this tale of Carter's and where
it is. I looked thru some later Crypts - can't find it. I can see myself
looking thru the indexes of over 100 Crypts later. :(
>
> --
> Dan Clore
>
> Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
> All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
> http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
>
> Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
Dan Norder
?
>OH, aren't you the censor?
??
>PUSHING something on someone?
???
Pardon me, is there some medication you're supposed to be taking? If so, please
get back on it. Your raving like a lunatic.
People's Commissar
jello throwing means you perhaps got the idea that I'm mocking you out?
You are a censor. You bitch and moan for pages about irrelevancies that are
intended to be things based on Temple for the Mythos.
Eat that. You are the only one raving on here about mythology, lmao.
Have a nice day. *Set* down a while, calm down, buddie.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020930021431...@mb-co.aol.com...
People's Commissar
Osiris/Isis. "Budge believes the cult of Anubis in Egypt was older than
that of Osiris." And then it says this, which I guess is what your gripe is
about. Well! Temple didn't say it. No one we know said it. PLUTARCH said
it. He wrote a paper on it. Anyone reading it would know that Sutekh is
not Set; it's the Hyksos' boar deity. Typhon is not Set; it's Greek (it
does say that!). You really need to learn to read things more carefully,
especially when it is stated up front that this needs to be read with
Temple's book with the Mythos in mind. Plutarch did write this. Just as
Manetho wrote what he wrote tho not relevant to Temple/Cthulhu.
Quote
Note on Plutarch's "On Isis and Osiris." Typhon here refers to Set, not to
Sutekh the original Hyksos wild-boar god. In this work, Plutarch states
"for Isis is a Greek word, and so is "Typhon, her enemy; for he is puffed up
by ignorance and deceitfulness; he tears in pieces and buries out of sight
the sacred word, which the goddess again gathers up and puts together and
gives into the care of those who are initiated."
Plutarch states her temple is called the Iseion (cf, Zion, the city of David
on Mount Zion, i.e., Jerusalem. See Hebrew section). However, Zion may be
etymologically delivered from the Hebrew Tsiyon, a hill. ?
Plutarch states that fish are forbidden to eat in her cult at Hermoupolis.
He states that of the 365 days of the year, the Egyptians consider the 5
additional and celebrated them as birthdays of the gods. On the first,
Osiris was born; on the second Arueris whom some call Apollo, some the elder
Horus; on the third, Typhon was born neither in due time nor in the right
place, but by breaking through with a blow and leaping out of his mother's
side; on the fourth Isis, in the moist regions; on the fifth, Nephthys.
Isis they (Egyptians) say was begotten by Hermes, Osiris and Arueris by the
Sun and Typhon and Nephthys by Kronos. The third day (of Typhon) was
considered inauspicious and no one would do business on it, not even
attending to bodily needs until evening.
When Osiris became king, he made the Egyptians give up their destitute and
brutish mode of life, showing them the fruits produced by cultivation and
giving them laws and teaching them how to worship the gods. After doing
this he traveled over the whole earth, civilizing it, introducing music and
all kinds of music. When this kind returned, Set devised a plot against him
with a helper queen who came from Ethiopia whom they call Aso. The first to
discover this plot were the Pans and Satyrs. Anubis, Plutarch states, is
said to guard the gods just as dogs guard men. (Mytho-jargon: Seti people
allied with Ethiopians and people in the Pan cultures discovered it.
Explained in Set.)
Horus, Isis's son, battled Set for many days. Horus was victorious but
Isis, after receiving from him Set bound in chains, did not destroy him, but
on the contrary, released him and let him go free. (The Schesu-her - Horus
culture, did this to the Seti people).
Plutarch says that it is correct to credit Set with whatever in the elements
is either immoderate or disordered by reason of excesses of deficiencies,
while all that is well ordered and good and beneficial we must reverence and
honor as the work of Isis, and as the image, imitation, and reason of
Osiris. Osiris, he states, is life giving moisture; Set the fatal heat and
dryness of the desert. Set stands for all that is hostile to and
destructive of life. Osiris is the reason and logos in the soul and the
principle of order in the material world. Set is the opposite. Plutarch
interchanges Typhon and Set here. Plutarch also speaks of when Osiris
became Phtah spirit, Lunus intuition; Logos reason and Typhon passion. Set
is against all this. Isis is like a Mother Goddess. These Greeks changed
all of this into this. Set or Spdt may have once been Sirius A, an objective
star. When Set was Sutekh, the Greek Typhon-passion it was not the
Egyptian's own God but the conquering Hyksos's God - a wild boar. Later,
Typhon was passion, Set was a deceiver yet the two were mentioned together.
Typhon-Set was like a liar - and Typhon in the Greek sense was passion.
It's obvious to anyone who knows how to read it that they are talking about
groups of people. When Set was good, Seti people were liked. When Set was
no good, Seti people, or some of them, were considered no good, battled,
chained up and then set free.
End Quote
You made all that noise about this? After all, I even bothered to include
the refutations, not just the urls; not that these have a thing to do with
the intent of having that up there.
Take your Ritilin - hey, you threw the first bowl of jello.
Wallas Budge believed that the Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations must have
had a common source older than both, but he said he did not know what that
could be. The Sumerians themselves said that fishmen brought them
civilization by day and returned to the sea at night.
Now why oh why would the Sumerians say such a thing? I know? Heh, no I
don't. Wait, :) I know: it was the Cthulhu Cult.
Btw, just on a hunch - our org is not hostile to the ToS - and some of our
spokespeople are on personal friendly terms with the founder of it. Just
fyi, on a hunch.
Calm down - and stop throwing jello. You accuse the writers/compilers of
mistaking Typhon for Set when no one did that at all. Plutarch did it.
Plutarch did write what he wrote.
Makes me wonder. Who'd be more accurate? A person 3000 years from now
digging up stuff trying to fathom the Civil Rights movement? Or someone
today that lived during the time? Whose more accurate? Budge or Plutarch?
Herodotus was considered the Father of History. Then it became the vogue to
discredit him and accuse him of telling tales. Well, seems they found those
"Amazon" graves female warriors, big woman. They used to think Troy was a
myth too - until they dug it up. Whose more accurate? I'm sure you never
even bother to wonder about that.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020930021431...@mb-co.aol.com...
People's Commissar
Yuggoth, Y'goth, Yug - all unrelated.
Shaggai, Shoggoth - unrelated.
Sharnoth, Sarnath - unrelated.
And so forth.
I don't think that Xoth is Smith's Zoth. I'm not even sure that you
pronounce Xoth as "zoth" either. It could be "shoth."
I could not find that story.
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3D97AD71...@columbia-center.org...
> Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
Dan Norder
all mythology is equally wrong, and that you don't care if it's wrong, you sure
devoted a lot of energy to getting even more bad mythology info from
discredited sources.
Again, only mentioning a few because I don't have all day:
>Note on Plutarch's "On Isis and Osiris." Typhon here refers to Set,
Typhon is not Set, regardless of Plutarch's screwed up beliefs in the matter.
>Isis they (Egyptians) say was begotten by Hermes, Osiris and Arueris by
>the Sun and Typhon and Nephthys by Kronos.
The Egyptians most certainly did not think Isis was begotten by Hermes, who was
a Greek god. Typhon and Kronos are also Greek figures. The sentence is wrong in
so many different ways it boggles the mind.
>When this kind returned, Set devised a plot against him
>with a helper queen who came from Ethiopia whom they call Aso. The first
>to discover this plot were the Pans and Satyrs.
Pans and satyrs in Egypt, eh...?
>Typhon was passion, Set was a deceiver yet the two were mentioned together.
>Typhon-Set was like a liar - and Typhon in the Greek sense was passion.
>It's obvious to anyone who knows how to read it that they are talking about
>groups of people.
That's only obvious to people who don't know what they are talking about.
>The Sumerians themselves said that fishmen brought them
>civilization by day and returned to the sea at night.
No, they didn't. That's another falsehood pushed by the people who believe in
aliens.
>Who'd be more accurate? A person 3000 years from now
>digging up stuff trying to fathom the Civil Rights movement? Or someone
>today that lived during the time? Whose more accurate? Budge or Plutarch?
Who's more accurate? Easy. Plutarch might know about Greek myths or history,
but his Egyptian knowledge is bloody awful. He tries to interpret whatever
smatterings of info he had through his Greek biases and screws everything up
royally. Budge is a lot more accurate. But, as I said earlier, Budge's stuff is
quite outdated now too, which isn't surprising considering how long ago it was
written.
I would certainly trust the information from someone 3,000 years from now who
had access to our records to describe the civil rights movement moreso than I
would trust someone who lived during that time in another country entirely with
poor references and a completely different political and religious background.
>Herodotus was considered the Father of History. Then it became the vogue
>to discredit him and accuse him of telling tales. Well, seems they found
those
>"Amazon" graves female warriors, big woman.
It seems they found the Amazons? You might want to recheck that with more
reliable sources too. We know for a fact that the Amazons as described by
Herodotus simply did not exist. And his whole rip their own breast off thing
was based upon a profound misunderstanding of what the word Amazon meant, as
one example there.
Herodotus had lots of tales of things that he only heard of that didn't really
exist, or existed but with significantly different details. Otherwise you would
have us believe he was right about the unicorn, phoenix, Atlantis (its natives
couldn't eat meat, hated the sun, and did not dream while sleeping.... huh?)
and so forth.
People's Commissar
I state that is probably more than obvious to most people able to read.
This is a horror sci fi newsgroup - NOT an archaeological newsgroup, duh.
When reading what PLUTARCH said, the reasonable person knows that Plutarch
said it. They know who he was, when he wrote, where he was from. They do
NOT assume modern compilers of notes put words in Plutarch's mouth, or even
share one iota of his opinions. Everyone knows that he and others later
confused Typhon with Set. I know what Typhon is in the Lodge traditions -
and I know it is most definitely NOT Set, not even close. I also know that
Sutekh is NOT Set. I also know that Kara Shehr is an Oirat name for where
my grandpa came from before coming to the USA - and it's NOWHERE NEAR
Arabia. Yet there is a real city stuck in the mythos - in the wrong place,
thousands of miles in the wrong place. So what. All that means is that
according to this or that "mythos character" there was another city of the
same name where they said it was. I can also state absolutely that everyone
involved in compiling that KNEW that Typhon and Sutekh were NOT Set. No
one chose to edit Plutarch.
When reading a document INTENDED to be there for writers - written starting
in the 1960's with FUN in mind - an intelligent reader does not assume it's
anything other than that. When reading something that says it is going to
rely on something some guy Temple wrote and the Cthulhu Mythos - that is all
they ASSUME from reading it.
Sirius was called Sothis - that's too well known. XOTHIC? Do you realize
that Xoth, Xothic, are things in the Cthulhu Mythos? I make a strong case
for Smith's Zoth not being Carter's Xoth - and that is knowing Carter would
never go against Smith. Btw, the original hand written copy of that
translated French document that I personally read in 1963, was FROM CARTER
"What do you make of this?" So he had it. It wasn't xeroxed - it was
handwritten, my cousin had it, I read it and gave it back. Didn't know what
to make of it and didn't know the Cthulhu Mythos at that time.
DAGON - and the Catholic Pope. And a few things about the Dagon, Oannes, or
Annedoti as these were called.
Probably the most recognizable article of clothing the Pope wears is the
tall, gaping hat called the mitre. Why does he where this? Where did it come
from? There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that Jesus wore such a
hat. Why does the Pope? The fact is the origin of the hat goes back long
before Jesus and can be traced to an ancient Babylonian god named Dagon.
Background:
The historical evidence for the origin of Dagon and who he actually was can
be found in myths and legends of the ancients. The Greek historian, Berosus,
tells of unusual creatures (Oannes or Annedoti) who came to the Babylonians
after the flood. It was said that they were part man, part fish, and they
were educators of the Babylonians. These people were described as: ...sea
monsters with the reason and speech of men, but with a fish's head above a
man's head and a fish's tail behind a man's legs. The first of these beings,
[Berosus] says, "appeared out of the Erythraean Sea where it borders on
Babylonia," and "taught the Babylonians to construct cities, to found
temples, to compile laws, and explained to them the principles of
geometrical knowledge." [1] The story said that after this first creature,
a second one appeared which Berosus called a "sea daemon." Then a third one
came: ...whose name was "Odacon," which is equivalent to "O'Dagon"--"the
Dagon" or "the Fish." [2] {Actually, Musarus Oannes, the first Annedotus
also known as Dag or Dagon (the man-fish), was one of FIVE Annedoti that
came in all, "all like Oannes in form and teaching the same," but Musarus
Oannes was the first to appear and this he did during the reign of Ammenon,
whose dynasty ended with Xisuthrus. Polyhistor and Apollodorus also describe
these creatures. All claim these creatures were amphibious. Odacon was the
FIFTH to appear during the reign of Euedoreschus from Pentebiblon, also
coming from the Erythraean Sea, according to Apollodorus.}
Christian interpretation: These creatures correspond to three descendents of
Noah from the cursed line. It was Noah and his family who got on the ark
and were the only ones in the Tarim Basin area to survive the flood. Thus
the comparison to fish. Noah's three sons were: Shem, the blessed son; Ham,
the cursed son; and Japheth. These descendents brought knowledge,
architecture, mathematics and the knowledge of God back to the world after
the flood. Japheth traveled north into Asia; Shem went toward the Middle
East; and Ham went south to Africa. Noah's cursed line--Ham, Cush and
Nimrod--represent the three sea demons in Babylonian legend (according to
Christian interpretation). It was because of them that paganism reentered
the world after the flood. Ham educated his son Cush, and Cush encouraged
Nimrod to teach the pre-flood pagan practices to the people. Nimrod
succumbed and this corrupt religion was reestablished back into the world.
Nimrod, the third descendent, was "Odacon" or Dagon. In the Bible, Dagon is
mentioned as one of the prominent gods of the Phoenicians. But, again, there
are strong evidences that Dagon was Nimrod....
{One has to wonder about such interpretation. People capable of geometrical
knowledge wouldn't tend to imagine such creatures, or so I'd not think so!
It may have been a person dressed in costume. But then, it begs the
question: who were these Annedoti that "taught" the Babylonians all these
things?}
All scholars agree that the name and worship of Dagon were imported from
Babylonia. [3]
Dagon played a prominent role in the religious rites of the ancient
peoples. It was to him that they attributed success in war, and he played a
prominent part in their doctrines concerning death and future life. In their
veneration and worship of Dagon, the high priest of paganism would actually
put on a garment that had been created from a huge fish! According to
Layard, The head of the fish formed a mitre above that of the old man, while
its scaly, fan-like tail fell as a cloak behind, leaving the human limbs and
feet exposed. [4]
The excavations done of ancient Nineveh and Babylon have shed light on the
shocking connection between Dagon the fish-god and the Pope. Here are two
representations of Dagon; Dagon from Ancient Pagan and Modern Christian
Symbolism and Smith's Bible Dictionary (see END for pictures). According
to Reverend Alexander Hislop [a Catholic]: The two-horned mitre, which the
Pope wears, when he sits on the high altar at Rome and receives the
adoration of the Cardinals, is the very mitre worn by Dagon, the fish-god of
the Philistines and Babylonians. [5] (see fishhead.jpg)
The Line-Up The Pope wears the same headdress as the ancient pagans,
except it's not a smelly old fish anymore. But it's stylized to look exactly
like the hat that Dagon wore.
Dagon in Egypt: According to Egyptian mythology, when the judges found
Osiris [Nimrod] guilty of corrupting the religion of Adam {Adam? in Egypt?}
and cut up his body, they threw the parts into the Nile. It was said that a
fish ate one of these chunks and became transformed. {that was SET that cut
up Osiris - Seth - son of Adam! and it was a letos fish that ate all the
parts except the phallus which some myth says Isis took and planted} Later,
Isis [Semiramis] was fishing along the river bank when she fished up a
half-man, half-fish. This sea creature was Dagon, the reincarnated Nimrod.
Dagon in China and Japan: According to Hislop: "Is it known...that the
Emperor of China, in all ages, even to the present year, as high priest of
the nation, once a-year prays for and blesses the whole nation, having his
priestly robes on and his mitre on his head, the same, the very same, as
that worn by the Roman Pontiff for near 1200 years? Such is the fact."
...The reader must bear in mind, that even in Japan, still farther distant
from [Babylon] than China itself, one of the divinities is represented with
the same symbol of might as prevailed in Assyria. [6] Dagon's mitre worn by
the Chinese emperors who were also high priests [7] (see japhat.jpg)
Something Smells Fishy: The worship of Dagon also affected people's
eating habits. According to The Catholic Encyclopedia:: As to the ritual of
his worship,... we only know from ancient writers that, for religious
reasons, most of the Syrian peoples abstained from eating fish, a practice
that one is naturally inclined to connect with the worship of a fish-god.
[8] This explains the mystery of why the Catholics abstain from eating
fish on Fridays. Whether they realize it or not, they are practicing the
ancient pagan rite of worshipping Dagon. And this also explains the symbol
for Christianity, the fish, which is Dagon. And Dagon is the representation
of Nimrod resurrecting out of the ocean depths as a half-man, half-fish.
Footnotes: 1. The Worship of the Dead, Colonel J. Garnier, p. 45 2. ibid 3.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Encyclopedia Press, Inc. [also on the
Internet] 4. Babylon and Nineveh, Austen Henry Layard, p. 343 5. The Two
Babylons, Hislop, p. 215 6. The Two Babylons, Hislop, p. 216 7. ibid 8. The
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Encyclopedia Press, Inc.
PICTURES follow: no they don't - they won't go thru on a post
The main reason Temple's stuff was even used is a no-brainer. DAGON?
DOGON? Hey? No one ever used this in the mythos as far as I know.
Now hurry, you have a pyramid to build.
Xeper (Shope?)
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020930221010...@mb-fd.aol.com...
Martin Edwards
>reliable sources too. We know for a fact that the Amazons as described by
>Herodotus simply did not exist. And his whole rip their own breast off thing
>was based upon a profound misunderstanding of what the word Amazon meant, as
>one example there.
>
the Greeks knew quite a bit about and travelled to regularly. To this
day there are Greek speaking Russians in the area. The fact that
Herodotus swallowed some tall tales about them does not mean that they
did not exist. Let's not get into slagging each other off here: it
has sent so many groups down the drain.
******Martin Edwards.******
Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway
when you can take the Red Car for a nickel.
-Eddy Valiant
Mike Tice
> Look, take your "monumental issues" elsewhere - this will be the LAST thing
> I state that is probably more than obvious to most people able to read.
> This is a horror sci fi newsgroup - NOT an archaeological newsgroup, duh.
Nevertheless, it is interesting to have factual contributions from
people who have some expertise in archeology. If you think that
posting in a horror sci fi newsgroup allows people to spout nonsense
with no fear of contradiction, then I have to disagree.
> Something Smells Fishy: The worship of Dagon also affected people's
> eating habits. According to The Catholic Encyclopedia:: As to the ritual of
> his worship,... we only know from ancient writers that, for religious
> reasons, most of the Syrian peoples abstained from eating fish, a practice
> that one is naturally inclined to connect with the worship of a fish-god.
> [8] This explains the mystery of why the Catholics abstain from eating
> fish on Fridays. Whether they realize it or not, they are practicing the
> ancient pagan rite of worshipping Dagon.
What nonsense. Catholics abstain from eating MEAT on Fridays, and
often eat FISH instead.
http://www.netacc.net/~mafg/que4040.htm
[Don't ask me to explain how fish is not meat; it is another mystery
of the Church]
Since this post gets details wrong concerning a major, current world
religion, one wonders about its accuracy in matters more esoteric.
--Mike
Dan Norder
>What nonsense. Catholics abstain from eating MEAT on Fridays, and
>often eat FISH instead.
>Since this post gets details wrong concerning a major, current world
>religion, one wonders about its accuracy in matters more esoteric.
>
> --Mike
They just get worse, trust me. Or don't trust me and look it up yourself if
you're curious. Just don't believe anything he's been saying unless you
doublecheck it first.
If I bother to take the time to correct one error he responds with twenty more,
each more ridiculous than the last. But thanks to the latest most obvious
blunder I can stop worrying that anyone might take him seriously.
I'm making plans to go to the Friday Night All You Can Eat Fish Fry sponsored
by the local Catholic church to celebrate. :-)
Dan
Dan Norder
>the Greeks knew quite a bit about and travelled to regularly. To this
>day there are Greek speaking Russians in the area.
I think you're making a lot of speculations based upon limited information to
try to prove that the Amazons were real. Or, more likely, trusting too much in
the wild speculations of another person.
This happens all too often. Some archeologist (and often someone with no
training in anything relevant) decides he or she wants publicity so tries to
promote some new theory as the explanation behind a myth or legend. We've got
all sorts of wild theories about what the "real" amazons / unicorns / fairies
/ cyclopes / dragons / great flood / giants / etc. were, and most of them
contradict each other.
>The fact that
>Herodotus swallowed some tall tales about them does not mean that they
>did not exist.
If the majority of information provided about Amazons (or anything else for
that matter) conflicts with known facts it's stretching things to say that some
other thing that matches some few details and doesn't match the others must be
what the guy was talking about.
It may turn out that the Amazons in Russia theory has merit, but it's way too
premature for anyone right now to be declaring that it's a proven fact.
>Let's not get into slagging each other off here: it
>has sent so many groups down the drain.
I've given up on the fish head guy, he's too far removed from reality. It's
like trying to debate the guy on the street corner with the sign that says The
End is Near.
S. D.
From my perspective, the only people who seem to be eating his tripe
right up, are the ones who spout the same kind of nonsense themselves.
I must say, I'm continually amazed at the high level of education and
insight that's displayed in this group. Notwithstanding "People's
Commissar," I've found the most remarkable and intriguing posts here.
The level of energy and time spent researching the possible roots of
Lovecraft's stories just amazes me (at least when it's done honestly.)
The best parts are when entirely different tangents of discussion pop up
to debate ancient mythologies and the various texts actually available.
Most of it is Really Interesting, so I'd like to take this opportunity to
say thanks for the great reads, all you sensible Lovecraft fans out
there..!
Sincerely,
M.
S. D.
I don't consider it offensive. In fact I consider it humourous
speculation. Sure, the guy is a moron and everyone knows that--but should
you be busy reminding yourself that instead of feeding the guy a reason
to keep posting here?
KFrye
> Pans and satyrs in Egypt, eh...?
Not to take sides, but I think the Greeks did identify the Egyptian god
Ba-neb-djet with Pan, since he was often portrayed as a ram. They also
associated him (B-N-D) with Priapus, for sexual connotations.
This seems to be an example of the Greeks adopting Egyptian culture, and not
the reverse - but make of this what you will.
Regards,
KFrye
Dan Clore
The mystery begins to clear up when you realize that there
was once a Pope who came from a family of fishermen....
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
Jordan SC
People's Commissar
which have no bearing on the article anyway).
QUOTE
A very major point to this, and in fact THE WHOLE POINT of me bothering to
type this from horribly tiny notes and scribbles and share it is that Lin
Carter, a great Lovecraftian and The Man at Ballantine Books, knew that
Sirius was called Sothis in ancient days. In a short novella written in
1952-53, "The Curse of the Black Pharaoh," Lin clearly states in Chapter
Three that "Sothis" is the Dog Star Sirius and claims that the Egyptians
called it Sothis. This is not true, the GREEKS called it Sothis. No matter:
the point is that LIN CARTER wrote this. He was also very aware of
Churchward's Mu fabrication. (Crypt of Cthulhu # 5, "Monsters of Mu.")
Churchward's entire Mu fantasy was OSIRIS based. Carter's "demon trinity" 3
sons of Cthuhu which starts the Xothic Cycle for him, are Churchward's
Triune God of Mu. Consider also that if Osiris is Cthulhu, then Isis must be
Idh'yaa or Quum-yaa. Also, there is Colin Wilson's K'tholo who is the High
Priest of the Old Ones (as per HPL in "Call of Cthulhu."). This K'tholo is
like Churchwrd's Osiris, and the High Priest, Ra Mu, served the Old Ones
until their lapse into a dreamless sleep during the Night of the Monsters.
It is apparent that both Carter and Wilson knew the Mu lore from Churchward.
Lin Carter is the creator of the Xothic cycle in the Cthulhu Mythos. Xoth
and Sothis are binary stars. The mere fact that "fishman lore" got connected
to Sirius/Sothis was known to Lin Carter who wrote that Cthulhu and his
family came from Xoth. In order to connect "fishmen" (Deep Ones) to
Sirius/Sothis (hence the Xothic Cycle), he had to have known about the
Sirius story and the Oannes, Annedotti, and Dagon and he also heard of the
Dogon - note that Dogon sounds a lot like Dagon if you say the words? It was
Lin who asked, "What do you make of this" and sent a hand written
translation of the French original on the Dogon. I saw this in 1963 long
before Temple wrote his book. This information was availabe even back in
1930. Why he'd ask a person from East-Central Asia about this is unknown.
Apparently, no one made anything out of it. No one ever used Dogon or Nommo
in the mythos as far as I know. The POINT here is that LIN CARTER was aware
of all of this. It is also a fact that many cultures had a fish tradition
involving the Oannes and the Egyptians had a Sirius based calendar. That is
not in doubt. What Cthulhu Mythos writers can make out of this combination
of tid bits is a whole New Story. And that is FUN. Key word.
I make a very strong case to show that Lin Carter's Xoth, the binary star of
Cthulhu and His family, is in fact Sothis. I make a strong case to say that
Xoth is NOT the Zoth of Clark Ashton Smith's tales since that Zoth concerns
Tsathoggua. Carter would never contradict the original writers. Tsathoggua
doesn't exist in the Xothic Cycle. The question is, how do you pronounce
Xoth? Shoth? Khoth? Dzhoth? Zhoth? Djoth? One indication might be in the
same tale, "Curse of the Black Pharaoh." Carter spells the word Djinn like
this: Xin. If he is using the letter "X" like that, then Xoth might be
pronounced by using the "X" to spell the word Djinn (Arabian word for Genie
or demon). END QUOTE
END QUOTE.
Now, where in hell is Carter's map of MU? I used to have it. Can't find
it.
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3D97AD71...@columbia-center.org...
> Lord We˙rdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
People's Commissar
"Mike Tice" <tice...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2eb1f685.02100...@posting.google.com...
People's Commissar
up. Carter is a mythos writer. In fact, that is the only thing that whole
thing is about in the first place. And other thing was notes collected due
to the movie Dagon and what the writer said about the Pope. I think the guy
made a typo. I provided the url, didn't I?
Oh: from http://members.aol.com/davecrnll/hat.html
In 1952-53 Carter wrote a story wherein he mentioned Sothis as Sirius -
claimed the Egyptians called it that. Well, no they didn't. But that's
what CARTER wrote in the fiction story. Where did he get that information
from, then? I posted on that in this thread. "Found it."
The statement that people who read such believe such is rubbish. Do people
believe in Cthulhu?
I DO believe, am convinced, that Carter's Xoth is not Zoth - it's Sothis and
I can pretty much prove that or make a very good case for that. And I know
he read that French stuff prior to the date of Temple's writing a book about
it. He never used that in fiction as far as I know. He used the Mu stuff.
See "Found it" if you are interested in Carter and Xothic. Carter didn't
care about consistency in mythology - but he most definitely did care about
consistency in the mythos and building new things on other ideas that others
wrote about in the mythos. Definitely.
" KFrye >" <<kmfrye@ mailREMOVEINVALIDexcite.com> wrote in message
news:10335162...@hercules.carroll.com...
Dan Norder
>Not to take sides, but I think the Greeks did identify the Egyptian god
>Ba-neb-djet with Pan, since he was often portrayed as a ram. They also
>associated him (B-N-D) with Priapus, for sexual connotations.
Certainly the Greeks made a lot of identifications between characters, usually
based upon superficial information and not a more accurate comparison of the
various roles involved.
But my point was that if you're looking for accurate information about
Egyptians and their religious beliefs, sources that make such serious
fundamental mistakes and oversimplifications are not to be trusted. That's not
to say that everything they say is 100% wrong, but they do you no good unless
you know which is correct and which isn't. For that you need another better
reference, and once you have that there's little point to using the bad ones in
the first place.
People's Commissar
Curse of the Black Pharoah" and fix all the mistakes in there. He said that
the Egyptians called Sirius the Dog star by the name "Sothis." Well, you
know that Egyptians didn't use that word. He also made up a heap of stuff
about some Pharaoh that never existed and about Set's amulet. Quickly, go
edit that. It's WRONG.
You know, we all know it's wrong. You seem to want to miss this and throw
jello at the mail person here. Someone makes what I think is a typo and I'm
supposed to do what, edit his article? In my copy of that I wrote in margin
that the Catholics EAT fish on Fridays, and avoid meat. That was for the
movie DAGON fans. They even talk about that in the movie. There are also
pictures on that url - this information was used by the people who made the
movie Dagon.
The POINT you seem to want to miss, is that this was Carter's project. Fans
demanded it, wanted to see it. It got way too costly and tiresome to keep
xeroxing it plus it was very hard to read. So I typed it. Posted it. And
there you go and make all these assumptions about the compilers - or maybe
even about Carter? It was his project.
Does anyone care if Carter said that the Egyptians called it Sothis?
You know what a killjoy is? A person who throws a wet blanket on fun. Look
in the mirror.
"Dan Norder" <dann...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021002022653...@mb-co.aol.com...
People's Commissar
purpose, with old info on it that Carter and many others obviously,
definitely used - it would have been GREAT if Mr. Norder had contributed his
expertise with modern Egyptian information and written something saying it
was contra Plutarch or something - and then contributed what he knows. But
instead, he chose to throw jello on the mail person. Too bad.
As far as the Dogon thing goes, Carter had it, in handwriting, - possibly
before Temple even saw it. It's a myth too, whether the myth belongs to the
people of the Sudan or to the French - it's still a myth and it can be used
in the mythos. It doesn't matter as that goes, if the myth is old or new.
I can't see making the Deep Ones into extraterrestrials. They are native to
earth.
Personally? I studied about Songhay in school in the 1950's. How a war
with Berber Moors ended the nation - all of that - after the Moors lost to
the Spanish, around that time. The people in Songhay were Muslims by that
time, but prior to that they were not; they had some other religion
unrelated to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic one. It's also in ibn Battuta;
lots of details. Lady Lugard also wrote of it in a very old book called
"Tropical Heritage." Someone might want to check that since there are some
similarities to very old Egypt shown there.
I had never heard of the Dogon or else I sure don't remember ever seeing
that name of any people living in Songhay! I thought, later on when I was
familiar with the mythos, that what I had read long ago on this was a STORY
with an alternate spelling of the name Dagon. The information was around in
1930, at least. It was very surprising to see it in a book in 1976. So it
got added to the rest.
I know that heaps of wrong info about Egypt exists via the Greeks. I know
that the "Egyptian Mystery Tradition" has nothing whatsoever to do with
anything Egyptian (it's Freemasonic coded stuff). I know that writer of the
Pope/Dagon article made a typo, or I assume that. But the commentary in the
movie "Dagon" mentions some of this.
And so, what could have been a pleasant discourse, with a person SHARING
expertise and more information contra Plutarch, ended up otherwise.
"Jordan SC" <jord...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021001225509...@mb-cj.aol.com...
Martin Edwards
>It may turn out that the Amazons in Russia theory has merit, but it's way too
>premature for anyone right now to be declaring that it's a proven fact.
>
the world standard for this kind of reporting, and by saying that I do
not intend to denigrate discovery et al.
Martin Edwards
>The mystery begins to clear up when you realize that there
>was once a Pope who came from a family of fishermen....
Even assuming said worthy existed, Popes were a much later invention.
Dan Norder
>the world standard for this kind of reporting, and by saying that I do
>not intend to denigrate discovery et al.
>
>******Martin Edwards.******
Females buried with weapons... Yup, they must be from the race that the
ancients called Amazons, after all, there's no other possible explanation.
I guess that body the archeologists found buried in England in the not too
distant past that they thought was a British version of a Roman gladiatrix was
really an ambassador from the Amazon nation. Must be, she had a weapon in her
grave.
It's like people are strapping on jetpacks for the extra speed because simply
jumping to a wild conclusion isn't fast enough these days.
People's Commissar
people go. We have the Science Channel here.
I believe that's called "thinking outside the box" when it comes to making
assumptions about what went on and did not go on in the ancient world. For
one, they didn't have immigration restrictions or social security numbers,
LMAO!! People did get around - a lot more than ever used to be thought.
"Martin Edwards" <Martin....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3d9b2c2d...@news.btinternet.com...
KFrye
"S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.01.16....@sudog.com...
> I don't consider it offensive. In fact I consider it humourous
> speculation.
The one thing that's practically preordained on a Lovecraftian newsgroup is
a fair amount of athiesm.
>Sure, the guy is a moron and everyone knows that--
Oh, I wouldn't say that. I seem to remember a Tani Jatsang who was a fairly
regular contributor to Crypt of Cthulhu - "A Journal of Horror and
Theological Debate" or some such byline. They didn't suffer fools gladly.
but should
> you be busy reminding yourself that instead of feeding the guy a reason
> to keep posting here?
Certainly, we'll get some insight into Lin Carter's version of the Mythos if
he does. Seems a perfectly adequate reason to me, even if I did/didn't
agree with his religious veiws.
Actually, I *hated* Lin Carter's stuff at first flush, but once one has gone
through HPL four or five times, it does grow on you - in a way that Derleth
doesn't.
Best regards,
KFrye
People's Commissar
referred to the movie Dagon?
Here ARE the roots and/or influences of the meanings of many things used in
these stories with some of these Beings/Entities:
Cthulhu as written of by Lovecraft (HPL): High Priest of the Old Ones who
are Outside, that will be unleashed through the gate which is Yog-Sothoth.
I.e., An Obic Priest (center column). This will result in utter Chaos. Then
the Old Ones will walk once again, where we walk now. When the stars are
right or "when the spaces between the stars are more wide." (The Big
Crunch, cf. physics, Penrose) [HPL]. ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids that
came to earth with its polyp-octopoid-like spawn. [HPL]. (Possibly similar
to the Arabic Khadullah)
Cthulhu with Derleth and the other writer's input: Tangaroa or Kanaloa, the
octopus god that came to earth from outer space (Emma-ya? Xoth: Sirius, or
SOTHIS, Greek) with its three sons [Carter]. It fought a war with either
other gods, or its half-brother, and the land it came to sunk beneath the
Pacific. It retains control over sentient swimming creatures. [Derleth,
based on Tangaroa, oldest known Polynesian religion] (Note: HPL--ship that
finds R'lyeh is the EMMA.)
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [HPL's intent, written for Hazel Heald].
OR: A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a binary
star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle, wife
being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: Lin Carter from Churchward's MU-Egyptian
fantasy]
Zoth-Ommog: Alternate spelling "Satomaga" literally means SAT, OM, and AGA.
A title for what Cthulhu itself would really be, in HPL's original story: a
High Priest, or AGA, of the "SAT" and "OM" - SAT is the boundless darkness,
OM is the Demiurgos, Bahu, the Root. Center column Kaballistic Tradition.
Cf. also Ubbo-Sathla. [Hermetic-Tantrik].
OR: Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth, though alternate spelling is given by
this author, who was occultist enough to know that UB-ASAT are the Demiurge,
which he wrote in his "Eibon" story. [Lin Carter]
Ythogtha: Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth. [Lin Carter] - though Lin's
description of this deity or entity is identical to the Ophioneus of
Pythagoreans, or Leviathan. [Hermetic-Hebrew] Ythogtha is in Yhe, he is
the second Yugg deity, along with Zoth-Ommog. E-choc-tah: place of worms,
Amerind.
Ubbo-Sathla: The primordial slime from which all things came to live,
[C.A. Smith]. Demiurge that is linked to Azathoth [Lin Carter] Ialdabaoth,
Child of Bahu, concealed in the OM.
Abhoth: same as Ubbo-Sathla. Literally AB and OTH (father with a plural
female ending!) [Hebrew]
Ubb: Same as Ubbo-Sathla, and/or progenitor of the Yuggs, the Worms of the
Earth. [Lin Carter]. Ubbia, figurative Italian-Sicilian-Cypriot slang for
"Maggot" more akin to "Worm idol-worship," the Ouroboros or Worm that eats
its tail (Ur-Ub, or Ur-Ob-orus later Serpent) used in "Other Nations" by
Tani Jantsang for the progenitor of the race of Yuggya. (In that my view is
that Ubbo-Sathla is the Demiurge or Bahu, but that Ubb is an One, like
Cthulhu and is the progenitor of the Yuggs and the Yuggya.) Hermetic sacred
symbol representing the Cosmos's Beginning/End as if seen as One Event,
(physics). Likewise, OB, the Asat, or Azoth, Vortex - oblivion, Karmik
eraser. Obeah, same in Voodoo with Damballah being the Serpent (Voodoo,
from Vaudois, French). UBer, Old Turko-Tatar - sorcerer of the dark kind
(Boga is of the light kind). Ub-Aur, Bulgarian; Ob-Aur, Hebrew: same. Uba
or Oba: idol, Turko-Mongol. UPir, vampire in Slavic languages.
Yog-Sothoth: The Gate that knows the Old Ones [HPL see above under
Cthulhu]. Yat-Zebaoth [Hermetic-Kaballistic] (HPL's father's brother was
of this tradition, HPL defined Yat-Zebaoth).
Azathoth: Asat-sat, Azoth-zoth. OR Asat, Azoth. 1st: non-being/being.
2nd: non-being, the Kether-Ob-Aur [Hermetic-Kaballistic tradition]
Nyarlathotep: The Soul and Messenger of all the Old Ones. Hermes/Thoth,
Mahakala. In incarnate form, the same as Black God of Sorcerers and
Witches. [HPL, Bloch, Price & other writers on this]. Possibly from the
Sanskrit name of this which is Narayana but highly doubtful - HPL claimed he
dreamed this name out of the blue in a nightmare of nightmares - after the
dream he began writing CM stories! Ob-ran and Ka-ran; Ob- and Ka- ran, RAN:
chaos. Right and left "hands" or aspects of Nyarlathotep [Tani Jantsang].
Used in "Dark Hand of God" [W. Hill]. Nyarlathotep would be the Cthulhu
Mythos name for the Dark Lord of Transcendent Awareness in our own org and
in my culture :) Nyarlathotep as depicted by mythos writers, nasty, mean,
bloody like Rudra, inciting chaos, is like a Warrior Lama said to be using
Towo forms; Nyarlathotep as pro diversity, pro complexity, both of which
would be regarded as chaos by people wanting to keep the status quo,
Nyarlathotep as pro going-with-the-flow, pro liberation is another matter
way too positive for mythos stories).
Shub-Niggurath: Pan, the Androgyne Goat of Mendes. [in all fiction]
Nyarlathotep would be the Real Thing Itself; Shub-Niggurath would be as Yig,
this force/energy IN LIVING THINGS, Ubbo-Sathla would the root of it in
matter, [in my view].
Yig or Yg. The "Y" of "YI" - Serpent of Wisdom. Word means "serpent."
[HPL]
Tsathoggua: toad god [C.A. Smith] Sadogwa, Mali word for an adept of the
SAT, or SOD. Same tradition as related above under Ubb. Sod-ihoh, Hebrew
word for same.
Cthugha: fire elemental from Fomalhaut [Derleth]. Thuggee (India) cult of
Kali sorcerers and actual murderers. Kali is the Black Tongue of Fire in
their tradition.
Nyogtha: earth elemental. Nitthogar, Norse idea of the cthonic portion of
the Tree Yggdrasail.
Ran-tegoth: a monster! Ran-tik-oth ?, literally "plural chaos-made
manifest-in a yin manner" Hebrew/Hermetic.
Zhar: definition varies with stories. Zar: Somali, a possessing
demon/sprite. Zarr: tornado causing wind god [Tierney]
Shudde-M'ell: underground squid, one species of Cthonic beings in G'harne
(Africa). [Brian Lumley] or Shuddam-El: Shai-urt-ab, The Worm of Destiny,
Apophis, Leviathan. [Tierney].
Ithaqua: air elemental, the Wendigo [Derleth]. Air god of Borea, another
world [Lumley].
Atlach-Nacha: spider-like web weaver [CA Smith, Lumley]. Agawanaja: weaves
a spider-like web of you. [paintings of Cro-Magnon in caves]
Yibb-tstll: Yggdrasil? "The Black Blood of Yibb-tstll" & Bug-Shash,
Ubot-Shash? in a form that kisses/soul-stealer. Black Blood is kin to
Bug-Shash. [Lumley] Ophioneus, Hellenic. "The Black Kiss" Kuttner & Bloch,
same idea, the kisser is a Yugg-type that swaps souls, the Yug is not like
Bug-shash, but the power it is using is akin to it.
Daoloth: Render of veils of illusion. THE TAO (DAO) definition of it.
[Campbell].
Other entities, Hydra, Dagon, Byatis, etc., known Classical mythology names.
Lloigor: sprites that cause mischief [Colin Wilson], deity related to Zhar
[Derleth].
Aphoom-Zaa: related to Cthugha, caused ice ages. [fanzines].
Rlim Shaikorth: god of the ice, or the ice itself in ice-age. [fanzines].
These and most other names not included here have no "Hermetic," Eastern or
any myth base for their creative invention, such as Othuyeg and/or the Lew
Kthew deity cycle of James Ambuehl.
Deep Ones: fishlike, or froglike children of Dagon and Hydra and servitors
of Cthulhu, pure, or hybrid with humans. Or, a large classification for all
servitors of Cthulhu (Lumley). Classical Mer-lore and world-wide mer-lore.
HPL and especially Derleth solidified this mer-lore for us. The Oannes or
Annedotti.
Yuggs, Yuggya: Worms, and/or worm-folk whose progenitor is Ubb. (Yugyar, old
name of Tatars that lived in "Tartary" before Ghenghis Khan. Yugyar (also
spelled Uighyar) writing written in verticle columns, is a syllabary. These
are known Serpent/Dragon venerating peoples. Lin Carter knew this.
(Yegg-ha, Lumley version of the same ?, he used his own spelling for this,
though he used the title Leiber intended to use on his story about the
worms, "Burrowers Beneath.") [Yugg: Lin Carter, Yuggya worm-folk, the
Yuggya Collective, T. Jantsang]
Shoggoths: watchdogs for the Deep Ones and other Cthulhu related allies,
formerly slaves of the Crinoids. The "Ommith?" [occult lore].
Othuum: leader of the polyp-octopoid Cthulhu-spawn, like Pesh-Tlen [Lumley],
the original Cthulhu spawn [HPL], trapped outside our dimension with MU
[Kuttner]. TOOM: same as Proteus (protons), Egyptian, issued from Osiris in
the form of Noot "The Great Deeps" or BAHU, Demiurge.
Mi-go: Mi-gu Burmese, the Yeti, abominable snowmen.
Tcho-tcho: cho'tger or "cho cho" Tatar/Tibetan dialect. Sorcerer who uses
the Black Flame to harm.
kLu - Sacred "Naga" Serpents - Bon-po
Kn'yan -gNyan - rock dwelling creatures- Bon-po, Mimigwesso - Tierney
gZer-myig - Major Sacred Books- Bon-po
Nkai, similar to Naki, Naka, Naga, Ngai. The Nagaloka (pre-Sanskrit Naga and
Amerind: Nagal).
Sign of Kish and Sigil of Sarnath, literally OUR STAR, Eye, Flame, and Tree
image. Kish is a city in Babylon that warred with Sargon a Priest of Dagon,
historical. Sarnath is where the Buddha gave the Fire sermon of the FIVE
Dharma (truths) shown on our star. (Carter and Derleth: Elder Sign.) HPL's
Elder Sign was "like a swastika" not our pentacle! 2 points up is the
CORRECT way, HOUSE in center. Eastern Star - same pentacle.
Mnar: Na'ur - Altaic word meaning LAKE. Modern version: NOR. All lakes
in the area today are still called "Nor" as in Lopnor, Kokonor, etc.
Hastur: not a Cthulhu Mythos entity, a sherpherd god [Ambrose Bierce], a
force of stagnation and stasis [Robert Chambers] the enemy of Cthulhu
[Derleth], the enemy of all the old ones hinted by saying those that wear
the Yellow Sign are enemies of the Old Ones [HPL]. Ha-Set-Ur - SET in a
Jesus-form [Tierney] - the tyrant deity that tries to be the only deity.
Hastur: Marion Zimmer Bradley, NOT CTHULHU MYTHOS, Hastur is a nice deity.
In Derleth, the enemy of Cthulhu. HPL wanted nothing to do with the Hastur
tales or the people who wrote them. His negative reference to it in
Whisperer in Darkness was probably his way of saying to Derleth "I don't
accept this entity" just as his altered spelling of Tsathoggua included as
an entity was his way of approving of CA Smith's invented entity.
People's Commissar
" KFrye >" <<kmfrye@ mailREMOVEINVALIDexcite.com> wrote in message
news:10336137...@hercules.carroll.com...
>
>
> The one thing that's practically preordained on a Lovecraftian newsgroup
is
> a fair amount of athiesm.
It was clearly intended as a joke, you know "Which God, Mr. Belton?" I'm
personally a Deist - and from another culture. One look at any Nyarlathotep
tale and well, that's my cultural deity being slandered all over the pages
of the mythos. So what? Do I think the Deity cares? Or even notices? No.
Technically, we are considered atheistic, however. No personal god ideas,
nothing like that.
>
>
> >Sure, the guy is a moron and everyone knows that--
Uh huh, EVERYONE knows that. EVERYONE (meaning a whole group of other
people) also knows that this Norder person has a real "thing" about "being
right" and about "typos" and about blaming someone for what someone else
wrote way back in time - even as far back as Plutarch. This is what ruins
fun. Someone calling me a moron for copy/pasting something someone else
wrote, that HUNDREDS of people bugged me for copies of and which I finally
typed. I have to wonder if hundreds of people ever bugged Norder for
anything in his life.
Notice, will you, that the joykiller didn't ONCE offer to contribute to it
by offering up some more modern discoveries, or saying "Plutarch was wrong -
it has since been discovered......." you get the idea.? Consider that in
the 1960's and 70's Plutarch was taken at face value. I guess that must
pose a major problem for Egyptoid fans. I get blamed for what Plutarch
said? Fact is - Plutarch DID say this and if the Greeks thought this, then
this makes it valid in THAT sense. Of all the angst, bitching at me because
the Greeks thought of Typhon as Set? Sheesh. Fundamentalist mentality
there.
Carter most definitely had a copy of that French thing in translation and
yeah, if Temple is 1976, Carter had it long before that. Mythos writers,
if they tended to bother with any of this, did use it along with things they
invented. They played havoc with "real" mythology. Everyone knows this.
Guess the Greeks did too, LOL!
>
> Oh, I wouldn't say that. I seem to remember a Tani Jatsang who was a
fairly
> regular contributor to Crypt of Cthulhu - "A Journal of Horror and
> Theological Debate" or some such byline. They didn't suffer fools gladly.
Also the editor and co-publisher of Cthulhu Cultus magazine, as James Ambuel
and Paul Berglund can confirm. Also the writer of an entire novel
(Chaosium, soon)- and quite a few stories under various names. Even the
ones I thought were "eh - BLAH!" were liked. It's called fun. They were
different, that's for sure.
>
> > but should
> > you be busy reminding yourself that instead of feeding the guy a reason
> > to keep posting here?
Note the desire to censor. Great. Anyone who wants the entire Spanish in
the movie Dagon can get it from me - when I like something - I REALLY LIKE
it. The information on the Pope - written by the person on the url I found,
was mentioned in the movie Dagon - one of the pictures is almost right out
of the movie and they did use this for the movie. This was posted in an
effort to SHARE - not get flamed by some anal retentive Egyptoid "scholar"
that can't even begin to OFFER some "new insights" about his precious Egypt.
See how that goes? He had a choice: "the information you quote from
Plutarch is outdated and wrong; this is the correct information" and then
proceed to SHARE.
This kind of shit almost destroyed the mythos from the 1970's when the
"monks of Lovecraftian purity" ridiculed everything the one person who make
HPL available to all of us wrote. I refer to August Derleth, a great man.
>
> Certainly, we'll get some insight into Lin Carter's version of the Mythos
if
> he does. Seems a perfectly adequate reason to me, even if I did/didn't
> agree with his religious veiws.
Carter was a bonafide occultist. What he obviously told Price when he was
sick and needed Price's care (or so Price told me) was that he KNEW a lot
about the occult. At the time, Price was an evangilical minister. So.. I
know quite a LOT about Carter in one sense - I have letters he wrote in
1963, 1966, long before he got so damned sick he was half dead. He had
cancer, he was on pain medicine. The man I knew was a strong willed person,
with a very strong and adamant voice. And he'd NEVER go against "scripture"
which is how he regarded HPL, Derleth, Smith, et al. He had no problem
saying "He's full of shit" about someone that said some story was mythos
when Carter disagreed. By the time Price was caring for him - he lost so
much stuff, he even said that when he finally got his Necronomicon written -
and what a PALE reflection of the thing he wanted to write it was. He
wanted to write "THE BOOKS." He had a lot of people gathering all kinds of
information for this since he was not too good at writing "scripture" type
things. He was to be the one that wrote the story around what was gathered.
Or at least, MOST of us assumed this. You can get an idea where he was "at"
from Curse of the Black Pharoah - the story is pure Hermeticism even IF he
made the huge error of claiming that Egyptians called Sirius "Sothis." You
know, everyone did rely on the Greek back then. Plutarch et al. By the
time Price knew him as a terminally sick man, Price asked him if he ever
heard of Sothis. Carter said no. However, obviously he knew of it in 1952
since it's in his story! Curse of the Black Pharaoh, look in Chapter 3 -
and see post I made on Mu information and mythology he also used.
>
> Actually, I *hated* Lin Carter's stuff at first flush, but once one has
gone
> through HPL four or five times, it does grow on you - in a way that
Derleth
> doesn't.
Well, if you like, I wrote - or rather I "sifted" the actual STORY - I have
it and it's called Xothic Story - and it's quite good - very good.
Otherwise, I'd say that the tales as they are now published are almost
impossible to get "story idea" from. Too much repitition and rambling. He
was so sick when he wrote that yet he tried to prevail. Got any idea how
much he had to have loved this, to do this when he was that sick? In
Cthulhu Codex number 7, Price admits that it was Jantsang/Marsh that FINALLY
got thru to him and showed him what a joy killer he was for so long - and he
ADMITS this, CONFESSES it in writing. He even sneered down on his own
enjoyment - and admits it all. Now? Oh, now he's reprinting ALL of it for
the pure and sheer reason of FUN and JOY.
Thanks! I can email you the sifted Xothic - it's very good. I think I can
get your email from the mess I'm seeing on here, LOL!! excite.com? I'll
try it.
>
> Best regards,
> KFrye
You too.
>
>
Martin Edwards
>It's like people are strapping on jetpacks for the extra speed because simply
>jumping to a wild conclusion isn't fast enough these days.
>--
>Dan Norder
>Great Halloween masks at www.maskstore.com
>
sling, mentioning no names, of course.
Martin Edwards
<tanija...@www.com> wrote:
>Yah, saw it on a science documentary too. They were also quite BIG as
>people go. We have the Science Channel here.
>
In ancient terms this meant that both men and women sometimes grew to
around six feet. This is, however, commoner than is often supposed,
especially among the upper classes, who had better food.
S. D.
> Yeah, well, blame the poster for someone else's typo when the whole post
> referred to the movie Dagon?
Sorry, what are you talking about again?
> Here ARE the roots and/or influences of the meanings of many things used
> in these stories with some of these Beings/Entities:
You speak with such authority, yet were soundly trounced by your much more
rational antithesis when trying to make these kinds of assertions before.
Tell me again why I should accept your bold statements or even waste my
time trying to verify them when the language you're using in your
arguments isn't even quite English?
Your type exists all over the place--a perfect example is a poster who
calls (herself?) himself "Resurrect Isis" in the newsgroup
alt.religion.goddess.
He too spews illogical tripe and incorrect facts. He even makes similar
attempts to link in Egyptian gods and goddesses to modern-day worship,
except he used obviously false attempts at "sound-alikes" to try to trace
the origins of the word "Ireland" itself to the Egyptian Isis. His most
astounding (and laughable) theories led from the word "Eire" (which itself
is apparently derogatory,) to various similar-sounding Russian words, to
eventually arrive at the word "Isis" and he then inferred a direct
relationship. He used that shaky logical spire to conclude that the
ancient Celts' religion was actually imported *directly* from Egyptian
Isis worship. That was simply charlatan linguistics and fictional
etymology at its worst.
At least you hide behind Lovecraftian fiction with your notes, and justify
it with your peculiar brand of circular logic.
The problem with people like you and "Resurrect Isis" is, unfortunately,
that you speak with enough authority and people don't follow you closely
enough for you to do anything but damage actual historical record with
your spewage. You and he both seem to think that your "insights" and
ability to "link" various facts with nice, glossy jargon that only people
with infinite patience and considerable resources could possibly dispute,
is worth the amount of time you spend disseminating them.
You realize, of course, that your pseudo-science does nothing but muddy
the waters of something that should be clear and simple for someone to
validate?
You do know, don't you, that the method in which you quote or refer to
sources is unclear and difficult to follow in the extreme?
For example, here's a list of words and peculiar phrases that I don't seem
to be able to find--both in my University's library and through Google
(even Google!!), and also a list of nonsensical cnoclusions you make:
"Obic priest (center column)."
"Obic Priest" isn't in any single paper, thesis, or holding in any of the
(considerable) Canadian University libraries I searched. Google doesn't
have that phrase in any of its databases either. For something so
difficult to research, your lack of a reference is not only annoying but
implies either that the term is made-up, or that you are specifically
using some esoteric reference that *is* too difficult to verify, just to
make you sound legitimate. The sad truth is, that if "Obic priest"
actually is a real-world term, the only people who would recognize it
would be the ones who'd be able to spot your charlatanism from a mile
away--you're shooting yourself in the foot by using it, since people such
as myself know that you're just trying to snow-job us.
"When the stars are more wide" does NOT equate to the "Big Crunch". The
Big Crunch is a theorized possible outcome of the Universe trillions of
years in the future, when all Stars are NOT "more wide." The stars in the
Big Crunch are theorized to collapse into a singularity--that's not "more
wide" in my book, and so the link is illogical. A single point in
space-time isn't wide--it's PUNY. A better conclusion would be that "When
the stars are more wide" is simply another way of saying "far into the
future" when our own Sun has expanded into a red giant and the various
constellations and Galaxies are more distant from one another.
Your "crinoid" reference is also misleading. In "At the Mountains of
Madness," Lovecraft's fiction describes the "Old Ones" depicted in the
bas-reliefs to actually *be* Crinoid-like. In fact in that same story
Lovecraft mentioned that our own Crinoids were incredibly simplistic and
so "enemy of the crinoids" is quite a stretch. The Old Ones were busy
fighting their own cosmic battles back then against un-named alien
adversaries, and Lovecraft says the Old Ones simply exterminated all
Earthly life forms that inconvenienced them. You make the Old Ones sound
like some kind of mortal, vicious enemy of the crinoids--which implies
that the crinoids were sentient in some fashion or that we should feel
sympathy for them. That's kind of silly when Lovecraft implies that our
own crinoids were like cockroaches to the Old Ones, don't you think?
And why are you mentioning August Derleth? Where're the purists to spank
you down with such a reference?
Alright, that's enough. I can see you're wasting my time with all your
prattling and I'm not going to go to the trouble to look up the rest of
your spewage because you're too lazy to properly document your
sources--which seems silly when you went to so much trouble otherwise,
until you consider the possibility that you're just trying to snow-job us
(again) and make your sources so obscure that looking them up is impossible.
It's almost a pseudo-academic style you write in. Were you kicked out of
your history or literature department maybe? ("Stop making all this stuff
up, dammit! Get out!")
People's Commissar
for mostly people who knew exactly what that would be. And they used it.
The fact is, many mythos writers did use this when they intertexted it with
the mythos. Read carefully: used in the mythos. I don't hide behind
anything - stop ego projecting. If the internet is as far as you can search
such concepts, then give it up.
You make a lot of assumptions about what I believe, or even care about. I
DO NOT care about Egypt. Never did.
Obic - Moses used the word - and yes, it is pretty clear what that is to
some folks. You might want to check Patai or even Freud or Isaac Myer on
that (not on the internet). Right, no attempt is made to explain it since
it's just NOTES and people knew exactly what the NOTES referred to. CF also
reference to Ubb and the many Ub and Ob words in there with similar meanings
and connotations. It's a black magician, duh, in the opinion of some. It
just so happens that I grew up knowing what "Ob" meant - different culture,
bub. "Influenced by the Ob." That's a concept very well known in some
cultures. No, not Western ones.
Shall I call them the Star Headed race then? Crinoids was settled on.
Can't call them the Old Ones - that's misleading. HPL did that, yeah, we
know. Even Chaosium changed it.
I have no time for purists - they destroy fun, they are all round killjoys.
Derleth is FUN.
If you have an issue with some stranger bothering about origins - don't take
it out on me.
If someone wants to step up to the PODIUM and start his paper with this:
Plutarch and others, which everyone once relied on, said some mistaken
things about Egypt. Much new information has come to light. ........ and
then present what he DOES know - well hell - FINE BY ME. I'm not in the
least bit interested in doing that. But I'd gladly include it since anyone
can feel free to add notes.
Everyone knows the Greeks changed things around and everyone knows that
Hellenic civilization is pretty much the foundation of Western Civ. That
doesn't change the FACT that Carter used the GREEK version. Heh, this whole
hoolah was one of the biggest debates in academia between Lefkowitz and
Bernal.
You have issues with someone else. Don't take them out on me.
Short version: Ob is the pernicious current or negation of the "light."
Anyone who dealt in necromancy was said to be possessed by the Spirit of Ob.
Witch of Endor: Behalath-Ob.
KFrye
> Could be. I wonder why some people are getting their asses in a
> sling, mentioning no names, of course.
Having just recently danced the wild morris thru' the needles eye with Dan,
I have an idea where he's coming from on this. Point being, what was
defined as the basis of the*legend* of the Amazons doesn't necessarily mean
*every* female warrior culture are *thee* Amazons. Rather like calling
everything we blow our noses in a "kleenex".
Use of the definate article, and all that. And we should probably learn to
define our terms before we get tore into it.
Anyone interested in discussing the Rosicrucians?
Best Regards,
KFrye
KFrye
"People's Commissar" <tanija...@www.com> wrote in message
news:upnvbgk...@corp.supernews.com...
> It was clearly intended as a joke, you know "Which God, Mr. Belton?"
And if it wasn't, it still falls into place as on topic. Someone hereabout
cleverly said something earlier the year along the lines of "Your God is
awfully small if he's bothered by my criticism".
> Notice, will you, that the joykiller didn't ONCE offer to contribute to it
> by offering up some more modern discoveries, or saying "Plutarch was
wrong -
> it has since been discovered......." you get the idea.?
Yes - some information needs to be drawn forth, and getting angry tends to
keep it bottled in.
Consider that in
> the 1960's and 70's Plutarch was taken at face value. I guess that must
> pose a major problem for Egyptoid fans. I get blamed for what Plutarch
> said? Fact is - Plutarch DID say this and if the Greeks thought this,
then
> this makes it valid in THAT sense. Of all the angst, bitching at me
because
> the Greeks thought of Typhon as Set? Sheesh. Fundamentalist mentality
> there.
Speaking only for meself, I can see where (an artificial) line can be drawn
between Mythology (genuine) vs. Mythos Fodder.
One of HPL's talents was to take scraps of Mythology (genuine) and use it as
a veil for the cosmic horror of his tales. OTOH, the purist in me inclines
to deplore perpetuating fallacy, so the notion of distorting Mythology
(genuine/historical) is a bit anathema.
Of course, I'm being dogmatic. That's what Myth is, innit? Distortion,
perpetuated.
Dm. Edith Hamilton would slap my face.
> Note the desire to censor. Great.
Yes, well...Fight or Flight reaction has a long pedigree. It's hard-wired
into our brain.
>I refer to August Derleth, a great man.
*ding* Ready round two...
Price admits that it was Jantsang/Marsh that FINALLY
> got thru to him and showed him what a joy killer he was for so long - and
he
> ADMITS this, CONFESSES it in writing.
I remember - he echoed this in a Crypt issue. I even remember thinking
"Price just lost his religion" because of the tone that developed over the
next few editions.
He even sneered down on his own
> enjoyment - and admits it all. Now? Oh, now he's reprinting ALL of it
for
> the pure and sheer reason of FUN and JOY.
An idea can be wrong and still be amusing.
> Thanks! I can email you the sifted Xothic - it's very good. I think I
can
> get your email from the mess I'm seeing on here, LOL!! excite.com? I'll
> try it.
Please do - although isn't there some place you might post it? I don't see
why ego miser deserves to be soley blessed.
Best Regards,
KFrye
Dan Norder
>Point being, what was
>defined as the basis of the*legend* of the Amazons doesn't necessarily mean
>*every* female warrior culture are *thee* Amazons.
More to the point:
We don't know that what these modern people are claiming to be the basis of the
ancient Amazon stories was the real basis.
Furhter, to even assume that the basis of the Amazon story was something
factual at all and not simply folkloric, fictional or allegorical is very
risky.
And to go beyond that and say (paraphrased), "Well, this thing that we know
from other references is completely wrong might really be right somehow. After
all, people thought the Amazon stories were a myth and we have found their
graves now. So they're really real, and thus those ancient stories were real.
So maybe these other stories were really real and the hundreds of strong
sources to the contrary are all wrong. So hah!" is absolutely ridiculous.
It's like saying, "Well maybe Circe did turn people into pigs. After all,
people used to believe that the Shroud of Turin was created in the Middle Ages,
but a scientist paid by the Vatican recently said it came from around the time
of Christ, so what do you know?"
In both the statement originally offered here in this thread (faulty Egyptology
might be true because Amazon graves were discovered) and the one I just
invented above, the two conclusions discussed are not related (so proof of one
in no way proves the other) and, more importantly, the veracity of the second
conclusion (claimed as absolutely true to try to prove the point) is actually
still undetermined and not necessarily true (and I would go as far as to say
probably false in both cases as well, from what I know of the situations).
(Yes, for those who missed it, the Vatican secretly hired someone to do tests
on the Turin Shroud this year, and she claimed it really had to be from the
time of Jesus even though carbon dating pointed to the Middle Ages, and then
she "cleaned" the shroud with the end result that other scientists couldn't
test for things that might have indicated a contrary answer.)
So, yeah, color me stupid but I think it's a good thing to want to learn more.
To do that, you need to debunk things that are wrong. Lots of people for some
reason don't like that. I guess ignorance is bliss and all that.
People's Commissar
email and let me know. I emailed it to kmf...@excite.com ??? Anyone else
that wants a copy can get it easily enough. Btw, it's kinda LONG.
" KFrye >" <<kmfrye@ mailREMOVEINVALIDexcite.com> wrote in message
news:10336984...@hercules.carroll.com...
>
> Yes - some information needs to be drawn forth, and getting angry tends to
> keep it bottled in.
It would have been wonderful - I'd have added it to the compilation - hey,
why not? In the past, mythos fans/writers were very friendly people, very
sharing people. Nowadays? I'm not the only old timer that knows this,
notices this.
>
> Consider that in
> > the 1960's and 70's Plutarch was taken at face value. I guess that must
> > pose a major problem for Egyptoid fans. I get blamed for what Plutarch
> > said? Fact is - Plutarch DID say this and if the Greeks thought this,
> then
> > this makes it valid in THAT sense. Of all the angst, bitching at me
> because
> > the Greeks thought of Typhon as Set? Sheesh. Fundamentalist mentality
> > there.
>
> Speaking only for meself, I can see where (an artificial) line can be
drawn
> between Mythology (genuine) vs. Mythos Fodder.
K, everyone knows that the Greeks (Achaeans and Dorians - the Hellenes) made
mythology of the stories of the indigenous people that were there
(Pelasgians) before them, and some still there, mixed up. They didn't even
speak the same language as the Pelasgians either; and neither spoke the same
language as the Khemites (Egyptians). They also made myths or wrote what
they thought about Egypt. Fact is, Osiris was not a word or name in
Egyptian, nor was Isis. But who living in the West has not heard of Isis
and Osiris? Everyone knows what Isis and Osiris are, right? And also, did
the Ptolemies, when they ruled Egypt, refer to this stuff in Greek? The
Ptolemies were Greeks. Logical to assume they spoke Greek. Did they put
upon it a Greek interpretation? What about the Romans? Yes and yes.
Greek is a whole other language belonging to a whole other language family;
it's related to Roman (Latin). Well, in the West we know all this "Egyptian
stuff" from Greek/Roman because Western Civ gets its origins from the
Hellenes (Greeks) and the Romans - it's all come to us from the Greek and
Romans. Pythagoras was a Pelasgian. Euclid was a Hellene.
Now, as a matter of absolute, indisputable fact (my point, btw), the mythos
writers KNEW THIS - they lived during a time when people (including me) got
a classical education. In a serious essay about the Masonic Mystery
Tradition (so called the Egyptian Mystery Tradition) and in another one
about Sirius, I was one of the first to point out that Typhon was NOT Set,
it was Ophioneus; and that Sutekh was NOT Set it was Rudra. Well, problem is
that no one knew what Ophioneus or Rudra were. A Jesuit Priest thought Set
referred to the Sethian Heresy - a Christian sect way back then. So much
for that. But the Greco Roman stuff? That was extremely well known and HPL
and company KNEW IT. That is ALL they knew of the ancient world - all from
the Greek and Roman histories of it. But I have to wonder (actually, I
don't wonder at all....) what all this hubbub is about Set (that's what the
guy seemed to focus on when citing PLUTARCH's error and blaming me for what
Plutarch wrote). Of course he didn't come forth with a "Contra Plutarch" -
heh. He's not TeVelda - that's for sure. He's also not Dana Reemes.
Inside joke, that one. If he's what I think he is, oh, he'll get it. That
censored and factual essay, Reemes' essay. Oh dear. If not, no harm done.
It's a reference that will pass by.
Reminder:
> Speaking only for meself, I can see where (an artificial) line can be
drawn
> between Mythology (genuine) vs. Mythos Fodder.
I'd never call the Cthulhu Mythos fodder. NO! Oh blasphemy!! LOL. In my
opinion, Plutarch, along with the whole Hellenes, wrote MYTHOLOGY, NO
different from the Mythos. Come on: Hercules? I think that was originally
Herecles - the favorite of Hera, and possibly an actual person. Note how
that kinda got inverted? Ok, I admit that the other thing I posted has a
note on the origial that says that this is FOR people very familiar with
these traditions. It's not going to be easy to find since these traditions
are mainly from the esoteric school, including the Eastern one. Eg, I know
what the Ob is - everyone I ever knew, knew this. OH, it's hard to find?
Gee, shucks. Point? Writers knew what it was too! That is the point, the
only point to it. In the movie Dagon, they did not choose the the alien
looking tiara described in the mythos story HPL wrote. They used the real
one used by the real Dagon cult - very similar to what the Pope wears on his
head, the mitre. I guess no one is interested in knowing that. OK. Do
you get the idea that I love the movie Dagon? If you do, you must be
psychic :)
> One of HPL's talents was to take scraps of Mythology (genuine) and use it
as
> a veil for the cosmic horror of his tales.
But that's the whole issue here: "genuine mythology." What was genuine
mythology in the 1920-30's was the same mythology that was considered
genuine in the 1950-70's - and unfortunately, it is no longer considered
genuine TODAY. I am 100% aware of that. But what mythology (legit at that
time, but no longer legit!) did HPL have access to? All of it, from the
Greeks and Romans - but he did NOT use this for his prikmary mythos. He
admits he relied on obscure Kaballistic, Levantine, and Turanian sources.
Well, these are not obscure to me at all. That's my own culture and I know
it inside out, grew up with it. Price may have had to have 2 degrees in
theology and study Eastern Esoteric Tradition to teach it in collage - and
then arrive at the conclusion that Mahakala would be called Nyarlathotep -
but any kid from my culture would immediately know this if they read
"Haunter of the Dark." Immediately. It's that recognizable. Catholicism
(the part about God, Trinity, Mary, not demonology, which I'm beginning to
try to grasp, LOL) - I will admit, is obscure and very strange (I had no
idea they had an incarnation doctrine, eg) - but what outdoes strange for me
is that one revival tent of Christians I once saw here - what I heard, "And
your flesh shall be transformed by the blood of the fish Christ Jesus."
OMG, I literally STOPPED in my tracks! I had to go in there. I couldn't
believe what I was hearing. Meanwhile a friend all too familiar with this
from his chilldhood on up - who hated it - was wanting me to get out of
there and had a disgusted look on his face. Me? OH, this was the Esoteric
Order of Dagon in my view; I would not leave until I heard it all. Plus the
songs they sang made me DANCE. Heh. I NEVER heard stuff like that before.
NEVER. There are some very strange Christian groups down here; one that
says Lucifer is Jesus's brother; another is the fish Christian stuff; a
whole other big group is this Logos cult and they sell Greek grammar books
in stores so they can read the Bible in Greek. They also think the Pope is
the "Beast" and have this strange hatred for Mary! STRANGE! There is
Santeria too, lots of it here.
OTOH, the purist in me inclines
> to deplore perpetuating fallacy, so the notion of distorting Mythology
> (genuine/historical) is a bit anathema.
Then you should be looking to find out the reality behind these silly
myths - myths that every culture had, no different from the mythos. Just
because something is old and something is new, it doesn't disqualify it from
being called MYTH - or mythos. Herecules Mythos? Uranian Mythos? Zeus
Mythos? Well, the man would have done us all a sharing and fun favor by
undistorting the mistakes of Plutarch, not that it would have had a bearing
on what HPL et al had access to, used and planned to use. Of course he did
NOT do this :) But if you are a purist in the sense that you want to know
what LOVECRAFT, DERLETH, CARTER, SMITH, ETC. knew - then I posted it. That
is all that was available for a long time, and it was considered genuine by
the entire Western world.
>
> Of course, I'm being dogmatic. That's what Myth is, innit? Distortion,
> perpetuated.
Everyone knows that the Hellenes themselves, wrote myth. You were curious
about kakos daimon and its origin. I told you - at least you can go back as
far as Attic Greek - and that's long prior to biblical era Greek, and find
that phrase "ho kakos daimon" in prose and verse. But the myths? These
silly myths were prevalent even that far back. You have to consider that
much of this kind of thing was told, written in a highly synthetic
mytho-poetic manner. People all over the world speak slang and use metaphor
today? In the past they used puns like crazy and more metaphor than we use.
So then, heh - when it talks about Pan and the Satrys siding with someone,
it really means the PEOPLE that had that belief sided with so and so.
Against Set? Heh, against the Sethian people, more like it and TeVelda
maked it clear just who they were (not necessarily Egyptians, either).
Oedipus - the swollen footed person, was that Akhneton? Maybe. It would be
so Hellenic to tell a tale like that. What was the origin of these myths?
Who were the Argonauts? Well, the people living in Georgia (Caucasus) have
oral traditions and they claim they ARE the descendents of these people.
Who are the Abkazians? The Greeks claimed that Khemites settled part of
that area and wrote a lot of details on them. They are black, by the way -
and only some got there via Turkey later on; they are distinguished from the
others in many ways, including language. They live in the Caucasus area,
too. Pictures of them and details about them are documented in "Russia and
the Negro." That is not a book about mythology, btw. By the way, the place
isn't even called Egypt. It's Khem. Yet everyone calls it Egypt. That's
another Greek name for the place. What do they call it today? Egypt?
Well, that name comes from the Greek - it is not an Arabic word. Is Khem
related to the words Ham and Cam? Well, according to our oral history, it
sure is! The Kama. The Greeks had a concept of ethos - not necessarily
ethics. It meant nation AND character. Both. Their concepts of nations
were vastly different from ours (my culture, I mean). Ours were not defined
by boundaries drawn in sand, but by kin bonds and tribal affiliations,
relations. Ergo, to us, Kama was a broad band of these people whose turf
was a band that stretched from SE Asia all the way on the southern lands to
NE Africa. So, concepts are not the same. Graves, who is NOT to be
discounted just because someone speaking with hostility says so, especially
in his books on mythology, explains a lot of this and also explains the
punning. That stuff is still taught today in colleges in such courses.
Take a course and find out.
So you see - my point - what constitutes genuine? Best to find out just
exactly what these myths are about if you want genuine - otherwise they are
just like the mythos: invented myths, stories. Some of them are quite
scary, btw. :) But now, if you want to know what HPL and company relied
on as genuine? Well, I posted it. That is what they knew. Carter had that
French Dogon story in 1963 at least. But that information was around in
1930 or around then. And what is this information after all? Another myth?
Heh, yes, it's possibly a myth ABOUT the myth of these Dogon people. :) A
myth myth? Now, what is an urban legend? Lemme see - HERCULES? Slowly
but surely, the tale of "that tough strong guy that helped someone out" went
from town to town until the guy became an urban legend? Probably. (And now
he's on the Andromeda trying to make a new Commonwealth, right? LMAO!! Oh
man...) Sorry...
>
> Dm. Edith Hamilton would slap my face.
> >
> > Note the desire to censor. Great.
>
> Yes, well...Fight or Flight reaction has a long pedigree. It's hard-wired
> into our brain.
This is usenet, hon. There is no need for fight or flight. The mythos
crowd used to be a whopping fun, sharing gang of people. Some of the
craziest funny letters I still have (a few of them) from Professor Mosig to
some of that old gang. His faled attempt to buy jewelry from Marsh Jewelers
(a very real, BIG jewelry store in NJ), and that letter he had with a drawn
stamp of Obed Marsh that got THRU the post office. TOO much. I remember
when Dick Tierney was gathering all this Gnostic information - and getting
some pre-Socratic stuff from us but he couldn't read it so we had to make it
English. We couldn't just edit the easy way with a computer. It had to
retyped or rewritten. Since it was too "alien" he settled for the later
Greek versions of all of it. He played havoc with Simon Magus, too. Yet
people did this stuff because they loved it, it was mythos and it was FUN.
These could be even said to be the little known mythology of TODAY in what
well, think about it - amounts to a kind of Cthulhu Cult? US! RIGHT HERE?
HPL's the Prophet? May as well be. His disciples? Yes? They were healthy
guys that had girls, healthy girls that rarely got into the silliness (but
some did)..... and who went to crazy parties where, heh, there would be 60
pounds of green jello made into the right shape by a huge terrariam. I
remember Joe West giving out "names" and we voted on them, I got two - "Lady
Diane Rose" and "Shimmera Dankledeep." People dressed up as Barnabas Marsh,
all kinds of silliness. They weren't RPG fantasy gamers or people with no
frends or computer geeks or people "into" BEING RIGHT. And Big Augie,
(Derleth) heh, was downright LEWD! No shit! They were not afraid of
sincere and friendly dialogue - or debate or suggestions. When they stepped
up to the podium, they had something to share and they put it on the table
for all to see. No one played "I'm the authority" games - and this is
certainly NOT what I was doing - but it's par for the course (SIGH) for some
wadhead to think it was. Ego projection. I have no time for that kind of
game. It's sickening. It serves to do one thing: it destroys fun. It
wipes smiles off faces. PERIOD. All things aside - that is what it does.
It doesn't clarify a single thing about the new improved genuine mythology.
(you know, like the mythos, all very modern, of aliens teaching man to be
all modern, sort of like the myth of Set coming to genetically tamper with
hominids to make them into homo sapiens - sorry, I just HAD to....consider
that my cup of red jello - if the joke eludes you, don't fret) It doesn't
do anything but trick someone into thinking that HPL and company had access
to some OTHER versions of mythology - WHICH THEY DID NOT. Do you
understand? It's negativity with nothing to show. It's a gaping hole
filled in with nothing. There is no need for jello thowing when the whole
point of it was the mythos in the first place - and anyone with a brain that
read the preface as it originally was, would have clearly known this. As
for the Hermetic document (which is what it was actually called when it was
published) it's written for people already very familiar with this stuff and
that was stated on the published version with a note: all others unfamiliar
with all of it can ignore it.
>
> >I refer to August Derleth, a great man.
>
> *ding* Ready round two...
I won't get into a single debate about it. "Trail of Cthulhu" is fun. He
did not dualize the mythos. Only dualists that hate Christianity with a
passion thought he did this and they became the very Monks of HPL that
ruined the entire spirit of the fun from the past. He brought into the
mythos the elemental concept (as only viewed by some of his characters,
certainly NOT by Ada Marsh in the "Seal of R'lyeh). He brought ito the
mythos Catholic demonology that wasn't all that hard to find out about at
all - yet Price with his two theological degrees never heard of the Malleus
Malificarum when I pointed out that Derleth, as a Catholic, would be
familiar with demonology. He created Arkham House. He made HPL known to
the world. To you! If not for Derleth, we would not be here having this
conversation. It does not feel good to hate. Purity is for
fundamentalists. They do hate.
Here's a question for you: Do YOU connect the Deep Ones and Dagon with
Cthulhu? If you do, then you are a Derlethian. See my post on the
uh...cyclopean? HPL versus Smith? on that thread, the one about the Call of
Cthulhu (ah, I'll dig it up and repost it here below) and how a literal
reading of that story (CoC) prior to reading any Derleth or other writer is
very different. I think you people can't even understand the mythos in the
same way because it's all intertexed now. All of it. It's hopelessly
intertexted.
>
> > Price admits that it was Jantsang/Marsh that FINALLY
> > got thru to him and showed him what a joy killer he was for so long -
and
> he
> > ADMITS this, CONFESSES it in writing.
>
> I remember - he echoed this in a Crypt issue. I even remember thinking
> "Price just lost his religion" because of the tone that developed over the
> next few editions.
Yup. He became a "just as fanatic" atheist, even lecturing on the Cruci
Fiction - sic. He had stifled the fun for years. He realized it. This is
a pity that he ever did this. He said it specifically and graphically in
the Codex issue. I was also shocked. I was shocked that heh - WE WON in
that sense, if one can view this as a war fought in favor of FUN versus the
stifling hatred and vitriol that was being spewed forth by critics that
SLAMMED some writers, such as P. Smith, so badly that they never wrote
again. You know, as a fan, I take that personally as a bunch of stifling
suffocators depriving me of STORIES to read since they aren't getting
written. It got so bad that people became ashamed to write a serious mythos
story and fanzines formerly devoted to the mythos only, changed their
contents and well, are GONE. You know, I have the original whole story
Othuum? I have the original whole story - forgot name - of Yoth Kala and
Zoth Syra? I had that ages before anyone heard of it. I had UNDA, Bride of
the Sea, even wrote the song for that poem, when the "experts" were trying
to tell me that HPL never wrote it! OH yes he did. The old timers knew
this, Everts even knew it. As soon as one of them "found it" oh, then they
accepted that he wrote it. GO FIGURE!!! Why is that?
>
> He even sneered down on his own
> > enjoyment - and admits it all. Now? Oh, now he's reprinting ALL of it
> for
> > the pure and sheer reason of FUN and JOY.
>
> An idea can be wrong and still be amusing.
When you are dealing in the realm of fiction - no idea can be wrong. When
you are destroying the harmless and innocent joy of other people for no
reason at all - that's wrong. It's the nature of evil. Think about that.
Cthulhu is not evil. Destruction of innocent fun and joy IS.
>
> > Thanks! I can email you the sifted Xothic - it's very good. I think I
> can
> > get your email from the mess I'm seeing on here, LOL!! excite.com?
I'll
> > try it.
>
> Please do - although isn't there some place you might post it? I don't
see
> why ego miser deserves to be soley blessed.
Well, it was published in Cthulhu Cultus long ago. I emailed it - did you
get it? I would prefer to email it rather than have some kiljoy smear shit
all over it because Carter wrote it.
>
> Best Regards,
You too!!
Here is that post on CoC naked - before anything else was known.
Quote:
Keep something in mind - which might be hard to do due to the
intertextualization that has occurred: August Derleth's "Trail of Cthulhu"
and his making the HPL stuff into "THE Cthulhu Mythos" has greatly affected
the concepts you younger folks (oooouch) have of HPL.
My first tale was Call of Cthulhu. I didn't even know it was "supposed to
be" a horror story. Think about that. For me, it was a "what is it?"
story - more like a detective tale. At first, I thought HPL didn't know how
to write a thought since he said the completely absurd as he wrote -
example: the character (not named in the tale in the version I read) is
reading the notes - and the writer of the notes is going to phonetically
spell out what he heard so that there can be NO mistake in the
pronunciation. So what does HPL do? He starts the name with the letter
"C." HUH? Like, what the hell? Next, the guy just "knows" that the old
geezer was murdered. OH? He was in his 90's and fell walking up stairs?
Coroner pronounced it natural? NEXT heh... he seeks out a source and talks
to a nut case (Wilcox)? He goes thru his theories, Wilcox duped the old
man or whatever. Seriously - you are left with NOTHING solid there. Also
there is that ramble about something looking old yet modern, yet modern yet
old. OK. WHICH IS IT?
Soon I began to realize that this HPL was a FREAKING GENIOUS. Like damn!
Next chapter I managed to run into a solid CLUE, heh. The only "real thing"
in the CoC is Lafitte; that was a real person. A bunch of non-whites down
south in early 1900's (oh oh) are murdering the descendents of Lafitte's
men. Now - finally a solid clue. Lafitte and his men were slavers. Good
reason for vendetta, right? OH, but does LeGrasse SAY THIS when questioned?
Like hello Sherlock, that's a SOLID lead - the victims all had something in
common - standard procedure! No, LeGrasse comes up with this crazy story
about Cthulhu - so we are back to that again. OK. So we get to hear this
confession EXTRACTED.... (by white cops, down south, early 1900's dealing
with a non-white that murdered whites?)... from Castro. In otherwords, par
for the course for those times and places, they tortured Castro. OK.
Already, it's gonna get thrown out of court. Oh, but there's more. Castro
is insane. Or maybe Castro made up a crazy yarn about weird religion in
order to get the cops off his back and get off without being lynched on a
poplar tree? So then, maybe Castro is clever and pulled one over on "the
man"? AAAH, by the time I got to the 3rd part, after I "seriously had to
GET OVER" Johannsen's men wanting to exterminate S. Seas seamen because of
the way they looked...., I was stuck for 15 minutes on the page where
Johanssen describes the sky as gibbous. What is a gibbous sky? Heh. And
then the rest of that? HOLY SHIT! Something was distorting the space
itself, from his description. Then something that conjured up images of
"The Blob" takes after him. Or is he nuts too? And so we know that the
narrator, never named, makes this wild conclusion based on NOTHING solid?
An implausible story from a chief cop that either wouldn't now a clue if you
glued it to him, or who lied; wild tales from a nut, and more wild tales
from a genocidal Johanssen who cracked too. Heh. OH yeah. Me and my
speculations all ruined and turned to dust by the last chapter - S. Seas?
Wrong place. So this can NOT be Khadulla and R'lyeh can not be Urallic
lands (Gog/Magog stuff - Kadullah is the Beast, all that). Can't be that.
Castro says it's not related to that - but he could be lying to the man - or
just nuts? And so on and so on. :) All my relatives got to read this -
all thought it was Khadulla and Uralia. ALL. We tried to see if any other
words matched, like maybe they were misspelled or something. LMAO - yeah,
that's funny but consider, I there was no such a thing well known as the
Cthulhu Mythos back then. The books was gotten from the library - it
wasn't even in any stores. No one I knew ever heard of HPL.
So in the end. I'm left there wondering WHAT I just read. Next up, Dunwich
Horror. OH - Yat-Zebaoth? Is this a Kaballistic horror story using some
kind of Catholic demonological ideas about half demon children? That story
was OK. Just OK. Wilbur was funny as hell - speaking in a deep bass voice
as a child, all that. Carrying a briefcase, even that. Funny. I saw the
movie - LOVED it. Dean Stockwell was GOOD. He was the kid in the movie
"Boy with the Green Hair." Adorable.
Mountains of Madness next story - AH HA!!! CTHULHU - maybe now I get to
find out WHAT that is? Yup - leaving out the fact that HPL's stories
deconstruct in your hands as you read them, I concluded that I now knew what
Cthulhu was. I figured the Shoggoth was like CALTIKI - which I saw when it
first came out.
Shadow Over Innsmouth. I never, not even slightly, connected the Deep Ones
to the cultists in Call of Cthulhu. There was no connection at all. This
is what I think modern day readers can NOT understand.
Now: read Derleth - especially the "Trail of Cthulhu." OH - now go back
and REread Call of Cthulhu and Shadow Over Innsmouth. AH HA! That's
intertextualization. And if you are young, all polluted (HA!) with RPG
concepts, there is NO way you could appreciate this - or how the Cthulhu
Mythos became a connected *Cthulhu* Mythos where Cthulhu and the Deep Ones
are definitely all one group. And of course, I view them as an emerging
ethnic group wanting to be heard. Of course I'd view it that way. All
readers take their own culture and life's experiences INTO tales, when they
read them. :)
Cheers!
Unquote.
> KFrye
>
>
Martin Edwards
consciousness. Not everyone goes for that.
S. D.
> I think he meant that your style is a little bit stream of
> consciousness. Not everyone goes for that.
I guess I prefer actual communications versus random associations even if
they're organized to appear to be an academic-style paper including
references.
If you think about it for a moment, consider someone who isn't familiar
with every single story, poem, item of literature, or what-have-you that
he is. That's pretty much the rest of the planet. This person is going to
make a few attempts to look up his sources and see what the frell he's
talking about, fail because of the poor documentation, and just ignore the
rest of his jargon as though it were nonsense (which in a way, it is.)
In fact, why write in such a style at all unless he was just trying to
snowball a newbie with all those obscurities? Wouldn't he realize
that he's effectively eliminating the n00b (me in this case) as a potential
future discussion candidate?
If he's trying to educate me as to what he thinks are the
origins and links he sees in the Cthulhu mythos, wouldn't it make more
sense to provide actual references that I can look up myself and thus
actually succeed in educating me rather than simply talking over my head?
That "Stars are more wide" link with the big crunch was just way out
there, too. Complete nonsense.
Stream of consciousness might be great when you're doing a little
creative writing, but in conveying information or making an argument, it
just plain old *sucks*.
People's Commissar
this. Not just the HTK tradtions, but the MYTHOS. That's all. If a person
knows what it is - fine. If they don't, that's fine too. If they know
some, that's fine too.
Notes are not sentences. Notes are not even paragraphs. They are simply
NOTES. Jot downs. Like this:
Story: DO, HPL, Cthulhu, HPL/AD/LC. Yuggs/Yuggya, LC/TJ. Worm, FL/HPL. CF
Oannes, Annedotti, Ubbia, Ob. HPL, AD, Xothic, LC and others. Connected
via xothic LC/TJ.
NOTES. That's how it originally was, even more impossible for the
unfamiliar to read.
Like these notes: YS = Ho agios to theos, Mt. Sinai. Ha-Set-Ur mate of SN?
(That was from Tierney, ages ago) - do you think that anyone he sent that to
did NOT understand what he was saying?
At least I said something about Ubbia and Sicilian slang, Turko-Tatar Ub
words and so forth. Slavic Upir, etc.
Let the reader decide. Would they rather NOT see any of it ever? Or see it
and maybe get a grasp of some of it?
They are more like definitions. What stream of consciousness? Did you ever
notice how a dictionary is written? Not all THAT differntly.
"S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.04.12...@sudog.com...
> On Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:23:49 -0700, Martin Edwards wrote:
>
> > I think he meant that your style is a little bit stream of
> > consciousness. Not everyone goes for that.
>
> I guess I prefer actual communications versus random associations even if
> they're organized to appear to be an academic-style paper including
> references.
Academic what? Oh for hell's sakes. Grasp the concept of notes. There is
also a methodology in the original paper for heh - using this for whatever
one wants to use it for without stepping on toes that choose to copyright
their deity names.
>
> If you think about it for a moment, consider someone who isn't familiar
> with every single story, poem, item of literature, or what-have-you that
> he is. That's pretty much the rest of the planet. This person is going to
> make a few attempts to look up his sources and see what the frell he's
> talking about, fail because of the poor documentation, and just ignore the
> rest of his jargon as though it were nonsense (which in a way, it is.)
Oh no it's not. It's stuff from a bonafide, albeit not that well known,
tradition that's STILL PRACTICED.
>
> In fact, why write in such a style at all unless he was just trying to
> snowball a newbie with all those obscurities? Wouldn't he realize
> that he's effectively eliminating the n00b (me in this case) as a
potential
> future discussion candidate?
You negate yourself as a future discussion candidate by not just ASKING ME
what Ob was. Now you see, I did tell ya. I'm surprised you can't find
that - it's not all that obscure at all. Now - Ubbia? Uber? Upir? That
stuff is very obscure at least in the West.
>
> If he's trying to educate me as to what he thinks are the
> origins and links he sees in the Cthulhu mythos, wouldn't it make more
> sense to provide actual references that I can look up myself and thus
> actually succeed in educating me rather than simply talking over my head?
Well, like the Tierney notes, they are in a letter I have. They aren't
published anywhere. He did use this in his tales.
>
> That "Stars are more wide" link with the big crunch was just way out
> there, too. Complete nonsense.
It was used in story. Stars are more wide - expanding universe. Get it?
That's a Roger Penrose thing. He's not a mythos writer.
>
> Stream of consciousness might be great when you're doing a little
> creative writing, but in conveying information or making an argument, it
> just plain old *sucks*.
Notes. Notes. Notes.
Yana U.
but there are things in this that were not posted. I won't post it all
either. I'll put my two cents in an effort to explain some of it and then
take my leave. Statements with ** before them are mine.
Begin here
I wrote this so show how such groups as I was part of long ago used to use
this Cthulhu Mythos lingo. This synopsis will be clear to those already very
familiar with the Hermetic, Eastern Esoteric and Kabalistic tradition.
These are just notes. Lovecraft chose mythemes from Hebrew and Turanian
sources and said this himself. There is a
Snip.
Cthulhu as written of by Lovecraft (HPL): High Priest of the Old Ones who
are Outside, that will be unleashed through the gate which is Yog-Sothoth.
**That's the intent HPL had which can be seen in Castro's speech in CoC.
I.e., An Obic Priest (center column). This will result in utter Chaos.
**That would be more like a person considered to be Obic. Such a Priest of
this would have to find his own religion because the Hebrews would have
killed him as a witch (poisoner). This refers to some very esoteric stuff,
not that easy to find in the Hebrew; but a lot easier to find elsewhere
where such practitioners are not killed at all (they are feared and there is
nothing magical about that). Moses spoke of such things and considered that
the "Tanaim" knew the "secrets of the Seraphim" (a group of specifically
punishing and horrifying angels) due to this "obic" force, something similar
to or related to Leviathan and considered "of the Serpent." Yet it would
seem that Moses himself was an initiate of this tradition, according to
some. Patai speaks of various traditions in "The Hebrew Goddess." HPL
didn't know of this but some information about these things was "out there"
to be "bumped into" at that time. The Obic is somewhat similar to what was
also called an "odyllic current." Od, Odyllic. This is about as esoteric
but at least it's in a dictionary. A sorcerer or even a person considered
to be a fake prophet, could speak sweet and luring words designed to entrap
your heart, not just your mind, and lead you down the road to the abyss,
rather like the pied piper. This is exactly like "Nyarlathotep" in the dream
HPL had. Nyralathotep as portrayed by many writers other than HPL is a
perfect example of this type of "priest." In some cases, as is noted on the
original which I had no problem finding and reposting here, (but this was
not posted before, naughy naughy) it is very reminiscent of Warrior Lamas
and their very bloody (as and more bloody than the Priest of Dagon in the
movie) behavior and method of "preaching" to rally up war support. It is
very glaring that this concept and this part of the word "ob" is also used
in words having similar sound and similar or same meaning, such as Uber,
Obeah, and so forth. For a very good example that's very easy to find, the
Hatian Ton Ton Maqouttes, not sure of the spelling, would be considered
obic sorcerers because they used horrific poisons and at least claimed to be
necromancers - or worse. They called it Obeah. I'd say there was a damned
good reason to live in terror of these people. It is most difficult to
believe that these words did not come from the same source. They are
religious words; and they tend to carry over even into different cultures
and languages.
Then the Old Ones will walk once again, where we walk now. When the stars
are right or "when the spaces between the stars are more wide." (The Big
Crunch, cf. physics, Penrose) [HPL].
**It is only logical to assume that if the univese expands (and as far as
the experts say, it is expanding), the stars will "grow more wide." Just
use a bit of physics there, standard stuff, figure in the rates of entropy.
If the Old Ones are beings who want to annihilate the universe or implode it
back to a time when They Ruled Supreme, then this would fit in with
Penrose's theory of the Big Crunch. This needs no documentation. All this
needs is a bit of *thinking*. The Old Ones, we can all agree, are on the
side of Chaos. Nyarlathotep, the *Soul* and Messenger of the Old Ones, is
the Crawling *Chaos*. These statements are original with HPL. Whether or
not there is dualism involved, the Elder Ones (Elder Gods in the stories)
seem to be on the side of Order. Our protagonists, in many tales, tend to
call the Elder Ones for help against the Old Ones. That doesn't mean, or
even stand to reason, that the Elder Ones are good guys, or beneficient
loving beings. They might be worse than the Old Ones - but they aren't here
and they can be used against the Old Ones. One needs to do what creative
writers in the past did with all of these ideas and *think* about this.
There are many ways to view the concepts of chaos and order. Chaos doesn't
necessary mean anarchy in the political sense; nor does it necessarily mean
a mess. Order, likewise, doesn't necessarily mean "law and order" or
society as we would all like it to remain. These words can take on
different and extreme meanings wholly outside of human concepts, when
combining them with concepts as outre as Lovecraftian concepts of Old Ones.
In other words, ultimately, as soon as any being expresses free will, that
is a sign of chaos. As soon as there is difference, there is chaos. As soon
as there is change, there is chaos - chaos here being the lack of order or a
disturbance in The Order. Ultimately, order would negate free will,
differences, and change. That would be *perfect* order, *absolute* in the
sense that one may view deities as absolutes. I have no problem with this at
all; it's easy to understand. One does not have to be famiiar with every
story ever written to grasp this concept. HPL will do all by himself.
ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids that came to earth with its
polyp-octopoid-like spawn. [HPL]. (Possibly similar to the Arabic Khadullah
and R'lyeh possibly Uralia, the Urallic lands; Ural Altaics are associated
in Biblical scholarship with Gog and Magog from the line of Japhet.)
**Again, no problem understanding that "crinoids" referred to the
star-headed race in Mountains of Madness. What do they call them today?
Surely, they don't call them the Old Ones; that would be too confusing. I
can ask that this be changed simply enough to conform to modern definitions.
That would be easy. In the original tales, the polyps are mentioned by
Derleth and it is not clear if they are part of the Elder Thing group or if
they are Cthulhu's Spawn; they are feared by the Race of Yith. Both polyps
and octopoids were mentioned before anyone wrote stories to make
distinctions. In more recent fiction by the author of "Worm Shall Ye
Fight," it is most clear that the polyps are no friends of Cthulhu's allies
since they steal one of their babies.
Cthulhu with Derleth and the other writer's input: Tangaroa or Kanaloa, the
octopus god that came to earth from outer space (Emma-ya? Xoth: Sirius, or
SOTHIS, Greek). Cthulhu came here with its with its three sons [Carter]. It
fought a war with either other gods, or its half-brother Hastur, and the
land it came to sunk beneath the Pacific. It retains control over sentient
swimming creatures. [Derleth, based on Tangaroa, oldest known Polynesian
religion] (Note: HPL--ship in Call of Cthulhu is the Emma.)
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [HPL's intent, written for Hazel Heald].
**This means that Lovecraft ghost wrote the tale "Out of the Eons" for
Hazel.
OR: A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a
binary star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle,
wife being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: Lin Carter from Churchward's
MU-Egyptian fantasy]
**This refers to the Osirian Divine Trinity - contra the Cthulhu Demonic
Trinity. Again, this needs no sources or references. It is referenced.
Zoth-Ommog: Alternate spelling "Satomaga" literally means SAT, OM, and AGA.
A title for what Cthulhu itself would really be, in HPL's original story: a
High Priest, or AGA, of the "SAT" and "OM" - SAT is the boundless darkness,
OM is the Demiurgos, Bahu, the Root. Center column Kaballistic Tradition.
**Bahu is in the Bible in the original Hebrew. It refers to The Waters or
The Deeps. Center colum means that it relates to the "Tree of Life" image
in the Kaballa and is in the center. Knowing exactly what that meant in a
fuller sense would require a person to know a lot more about this tradition;
but this is not necessary with regards to the mythos. The way Zoth Ommog is
used in the mythos makes it apparent that It is a bad ass entity.
Cf. also Ubbo-Sathla. [Hermetic-Tantrik]. OR: Another son of Cthulhu from
Xoth, though alternate spelling is given by this author, who was occultist
enough to know that UB-ASAT are the Demiurge, which he wrote in his "Eibon"
story. [Lin Carter]
**Asat is from the Vedanta and it means non-being. It is in interaction
with Sat, which means Being. Again, Vedanta is not well known to most
people; but at least it is in an encyclopedia as are the words Asat and Sat
if you read up on Vedanta.
Ythogtha: Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth. [Lin Carter] - though Lin's
description of this deity or entity is identical to the Ophioneus of
Pythagoreans, or Leviathan. [Hermetic-Hebrew] Ythogtha is in Yhe, he is
the second Yugg deity, along with Zoth-Ommog. E-choc-tah: place of worms,
Amerind.
Xoth: a note on this. Xoth is the binary star where Cthulhu, wife and sons
were, [Carter]. I do not think this is the same as Clark Ashton Smith's
planet Zoth because Smith's Zoth was connected to Tsathoggua. In the Xothic
cycle, Tsathoggua doesn't exist. Carter would not change something Smith
wrote; ergo Xoth is another place. Since Carter, in the story "Curse of the
Black Pharaoh" chose to write the Arabic word "Djinn" or "Jinn" like this:
"Xin," I assume then that Xoth is pronounced similarly as Djoth of using
Joth, such as the soft "J" sound in the word "de jure" or as the "z" is
pronounced in the word "azure."
Ubbo-Sathla: The primordial slime from which all things came to live,
[C.A. Smith]. Demiurge that is linked to Azathoth [Lin Carter] Ialdabaoth,
Child of Bahu, concealed in the OM.
Abhoth: same as Ubbo-Sathla. Literally AB and OTH (father with a plural
female ending!) [Hebrew]
Ubb: Same as Ubbo-Sathla, and/or progenitor of the Yuggs, the Worms of the
Earth. [Lin Carter]. Ubbia, figurative Italian-Sicilian-Cypriot slang for
"Maggot" more akin to "Worm idol-worship," the Ouroboros or Worm that eats
its tail (Ur-Ub, or Ur-Ob-orus later Serpent) used in "Other Nations" by
Tani Jantsang for the progenitor of the race of Yuggya. (In that my view is
that Ubbo-Sathla is the Demiurge or Bahu, but that Ubb is an Old One, like
Cthulhu and is the progenitor of the Yuggs and the Yuggya.) Hermetic sacred
symbol representing the Cosmos's Beginning/End as if seen as One Event,
(physics). Likewise, OB, the Asat, or Azoth, Vortex - oblivion, Karmik
eraser. Obeah, same in Voodoo with Damballah being the Serpent (Voodoo,
from Vaudois, French). UBer, Old Turko-Tatar - sorcerer of the dark kind
(Boga is of the light kind). Ub-Aur, Bulgarian; Ob-Aur, Hebrew: same. Uba
or Oba: idol, Turko-Mongol. UPir, vampire in Slavic languages.
**This is spelled out just fine. By the way, that Hebrew Ob concept is also
the same as Oph (b becoming ph) - as in Ophitic.
Yog-Sothoth: The Gate that knows the Old Ones [HPL see above under
Cthulhu]. Yat-Zebaoth [Hermetic-Kaballistic] (HPL's father's brother was
of this tradition, HPL defined Yat-Zebaoth).
**In Kaballa, Yat-Zebaoth is similar to Chesed, but more so in that it is
the Ultimate Gate, the All in One and One in All - and is also described as
"globes."
Azathoth: Asat-sat, Azoth-zoth. OR Asat, Azoth. 1st: non-being/being.
2nd: non-being, the Kether-Ob-Aur [Hermetic-Kaballistic tradition]
**Asat and Sat are from Vedanta. Azoth is alchemical and connected to the
concept of Ialdabaoth; that is pretty well known.
Nyarlathotep: The Soul and Messenger of all the Old Ones. Hermes/Thoth,
Mahakala. In incarnate form, the same as Black God of Sorcerers and
Witches. [HPL, Bloch, Price & other writers on this]. Possibly from the
Sanskrit name of this which is Narayana but highly doubtful - HPL claimed he
dreamed this name out of the blue in a nightmare of nightmares - after the
dream he began writing CM stories! Ob-ran and Ka-ran; Ob- and Ka- ran, RAN:
chaos. Right and left "hands" or aspects of Nyarlathotep [Tani Jantsang].
Used in "Dark Hand of God" [W. Hill]. Nyarlathotep would be the Cthulhu
Mythos name for the Dark Lord of Transcendent Awareness in our own org and
in my culture. (Dr. Price, Crypt of Cthulhu #2, confirms Mahakala would be
Nyarlathotep). Nyarlathotep as depicted by mythos writers, nasty, mean,
horribly bloody like Rudra, inciting chaos, is like a Warrior Lama said to
be using Towo forms; Nyarlathotep as pro diversity, pro complexity, both of
which would be regarded as chaos by people wanting to keep the status quo,
Nyarlathotep as pro going-with-the-flow, pro liberation is another matter
way too positive for mythos stories).
**There it is. That was not posted.
Shub-Niggurath: Pan, the Androgyne Goat of Mendes. [in all fiction]
Nyarlathotep would be the Real Thing Itself; Shub-Niggurath would be as Yig,
this force/energy IN LIVING THINGS, Ubbo-Sathla would the root of it in
matter, [T. Jantsang].
**Snip what is obvious. I think the point was also clear on the issue of
friendiness as opposed to snide accusations and innuendoes. You could have
simply asked what it meant. Personally, I'd be the last person to think
that one can find anything from the esoteric tradition in a dictionary; but
am surprised that at least some of it these days can be found; at least in
regards to the Eastern esoteric traditions; that can be somewhat found.
"S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.04.12...@sudog.com...
People's Commissar
but it was written so long ago. I fixed that:
Now reads:
ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids (Star-Headed "Old Ones" or "Elder Things" in
the story "Mountains of Madness") that came to earth [HPL]. There are also
polyp-octopoids that may be the race that Cthulhu came with. Or the Polyps
may be a separate race distinct from the Octopoids. The Octopoids are
definitely Cthulhu's race. But the Polyps are the race that the Race of
Yith was fleeing from. [Derleth, fanzine Yith Trilogy, Jantsang, Marsh].
I have a character in a tale call them "crinoids" - a type of echinoderm
(star headed?), along those lines. Since the character is also OLD and
doesn't see any of these as deities, that's the name that character uses.
The Polyp's against Yithians is a Derleth change - which got rectified by a
kind of history when a Trilogy was written - oh ages ago. We incorporate
this stuff too.
I tried to email the updated version, but the email bounced.
"Yana U." <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:upsed8i...@corp.supernews.com...
Martin Edwards
>On Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:23:49 -0700, Martin Edwards wrote:
>
>> I think he meant that your style is a little bit stream of
>> consciousness. Not everyone goes for that.
>
>I guess I prefer actual communications versus random associations even if
>they're organized to appear to be an academic-style paper including
>references.
>
>
>Stream of consciousness might be great when you're doing a little
>creative writing, but in conveying information or making an argument, it
>just plain old *sucks*.
Sure: you don't have to convince me.
Martin Edwards
<tanija...@www.com> wrote:
>Look, they are notes, not for newbies,................
Got it.
Rick
tice...@hotmail.com says...
[snip]
>> Something Smells Fishy: The worship of Dagon also affected people's
>> eating habits. According to The Catholic Encyclopedia:: As to the ritual of
>> his worship,... we only know from ancient writers that, for religious
>> reasons, most of the Syrian peoples abstained from eating fish, a practice
>> that one is naturally inclined to connect with the worship of a fish-god.
>> [8] This explains the mystery of why the Catholics abstain from eating
>> fish on Fridays. Whether they realize it or not, they are practicing the
>> ancient pagan rite of worshipping Dagon.
>
>What nonsense. Catholics abstain from eating MEAT on Fridays, and
>often eat FISH instead.
>http://www.netacc.net/~mafg/que4040.htm
>[Don't ask me to explain how fish is not meat; it is another mystery
>of the Church]
> --Mike
During the Italian Renaissance, the fising guilds paid the Catholic church to
outlaw meat on Friday in order to increase their sales. During the 1950's this
was changed and eating meat on Friday was discouraged, and only outlawed during
Lent. It was justified as a form of penance.
So spend the rest of your Fridays eating calamari, and Save the Whales so they
can Take a Bite out of Cthulu.
Rick "lapsed catholic" DeBay
S. D.
> Look, they are notes, not for newbies, notes for people very familiar
> with this. Not just the HTK tradtions, but the MYTHOS. That's all. If
> a person knows what it is - fine. If they don't, that's fine too. If
> they know some, that's fine too.
If they are not for newbies, then I can only conclude one of the
following:
1. You didn't think I was a newbie to what you already "knew." This
indicates humility and open-mindedness on your part, however unrealistic
it might be to assume that I know what you know.
2. You knew I was a newbie but posted a note addressed to me that included
stuff which you now claim was "not for newbies" to begin with.
#2 isn't very pretty and is quite cruel. Why include me in your response
at all if you didn't intend for me to actually understand it?
Finally, I wanted to point out that a number of your notes were just plain
wrong anyway. Again.
> They are more like definitions. What stream of consciousness? Did you
> ever notice how a dictionary is written? Not all THAT differntly.
A dictionary includes a very concrete description and pronounciation guide
along with verifiable references to other words that one can easily follow.
Perhaps you could re-post with a little more detail so I can actually look
up your obscure references?
[response to the other tripe]
>> That "Stars are more wide" link with the big crunch was just way out
>> there, too. Complete nonsense.
>
> It was used in story. Stars are more wide - expanding universe. Get
> it? That's a Roger Penrose thing. He's not a mythos writer.
Yes, precisely--EXPANDING UNIVERSE. The Big Crunch is not the expansion of
the universe, it's the contraction of the Universe to a singularity. The
conclusion was backwards.
People's Commissar
Just saw this. See inside. Did rewrite it with new info in there and more
on the new discovery on expanding galazies. Used Arabic transliteration or
spelling instead of Turkic one for Khadullu. Fixed that . Got more too.
Had the notes, just added them.
"S. D." <new...@sudog.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.10.08.10...@sudog.com...
> On Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:31:16 -0700, People's Commissar wrote:
>
> > Look, they are notes, not for newbies, notes for people very familiar
> > with this. Not just the HTK tradtions, but the MYTHOS. That's all. If
> > a person knows what it is - fine. If they don't, that's fine too. If
> > they know some, that's fine too.
>
> If they are not for newbies, then I can only conclude one of the
> following:
>
> 1. You didn't think I was a newbie to what you already "knew." This
> indicates humility and open-mindedness on your part, however unrealistic
> it might be to assume that I know what you know.
Yes! I thought everyone did since this stuff has been around FOREVER. Most
of the writers listed in brackets is a clue. They are old timers. People
used it, deliberately used the meanings, concepts in their tales and I have
some of their written notes to this effect. The best known example would be
Tierney with Yog-Sothoth, that's only TOO well known - isn't it? Look, you
know of Dave Mitchell? Old timer? Quote: HPL was very aware of Tibetan
and Oceanic mythology and art. He drew on that stuff heavily when creating
the mythos deities. But he did it because he wanted to avoid using the old
cliched monsters such as werewolves and vampires etc.. So Nyarlathotep was
probably based on Mahakallla and Cthulhu on Tiamat and Tangaroa . UNQUOTE.
Yeah, no kidding. Doesn't everyone know this? I thought yes. Certainly
anyone inside that culture or familiar with the religion/traditions of their
own people wold RECOGNIZE "hey, he's talking about THIS, I know what that
is!" This may have been "alien stuff" when HPL wrote it - but honey, we
are HERE now and it's not alien to us at all. It was NOT easy for the
writers to track some of this down. Price even called me up once to find
out what something meant and he TAUGHT the course on eastern esoteric
tradition. I explained it, but it was not easy.
Consider also, that instead of you just sincerely ASKING me "what does that
word mean" I was getting flamed by the pompous joykiller that himself has
NOTHING to offer in the way of information. I finally posted the "Xothic
Story" thing too. Got asked enough times to do it. What, you people don't
know how to say "what does that mean?" When a sincere query about the use
of cacodaimon comes up, someone can't just tell the person - they have to
be sarcastic about it? "Well, nyaa nyaa, the Greeks spoke Greek nyaa nyaa."
Really. You people are NOTHING like the old Mythos writers, including the
Carter circle (Pre Price ones) and Tierney and Berglund and the rest, Joe
West, etc. Some things are really PURELY made up out of whole cloth, such
as a lot of James' entities or Chrispin's entities. But HPL admitted he
relied on these sources and you bet the others tried to look up the stuff
and find it. As I said, I still have Dick's notes on "ho agios to theos"
which, he claimed when said fast with an accent, sounded like Yog-Sothoth.
That IS in fact, Yat-zebaoth and that's Hebrew: the one in all, all in one -
and the Gate! Remember? Yog Sothosh IS the Gate by wh... it's one of
HPL's necronomicon quotes. And umr'at'tawil IS Arabic. But a lot of peole
did NOT know that E. H. Price knew this. Mosig was the first person I knew
that figured that out since he knew the language. But others didn't know
this, i.e., the fans. So? Why NOT compile something like this? You can
tell it's old.
>
> 2. You knew I was a newbie but posted a note addressed to me that included
> stuff which you now claim was "not for newbies" to begin with.
It states in the publication that well, (that they are some mythos fans
reading it is as given and they'd know what the MYTHOS thing was from the
story) it's best if one has a lot of familiarity with these traditions and
if they do, then they would know what the mythos entites were in a very
short way to explain it - and THESE were the ones that were NOT familiar
with the MYTHOS. So then, if they read the mythos, bingo - they'd grasp
what the thing was. And almost ALL Of it refers to what the purists would
call imperaonal forces, more or less CONCEPTS that are NOT easy to explain
if you are not well - FROM the tradition. But both ways, it's not hard to
figure out what's what - and WHO used it, names are in brackets. But if
you know what the mythos entities are, what the other words are SHOULD BE
obvious - or at least I think so. It's not easy to find things from what
used to be esoteric traditions. They aren't that esoteric NOW, not anymore.
But the OB? You gotta be kidding! OK. You don't know. You can make an
inference from that by what it is describing by knowing the mythos story,
right?
>
> Finally, I wanted to point out that a number of your notes were just plain
> wrong anyway. Again.
No, they are not. I have in [ ] which writer used it and/or KNEW this.
There is a tale where the Crawling Chaos wants to WHOOSH suck into oblivion
the cosmos. I.e, CRUNCH it. I also used it in that manner in a tale.
Where did the idea come from? PENROSE, as it states.
>
> Perhaps you could re-post with a little more detail so I can actually look
> up your obscure references?
Sure. Um, btw, you don't exactly understand what Crunch is about. It does
not negate the expansion. The two concepts get merged. Just saw a show on
it, too.
Here goes.
HERMETO-TANTRIK-KABALLISTIC - AND CTHULHU MYTHOS NAMES
I wrote this to show how such groups as I was part of long ago used to use
this Cthulhu Mythos lingo. This synopsis will be clear to those already very
familiar with the Hermetic, Eastern Esoteric and Kabalistic tradition.
These are just notes. Lovecraft chose mythemes from Hebrew and Turanian
sources and said this himself. Other writers through the years sought out
words and ideas from many cultures that sounded similar and had proper
similar meanings. ===================
Cthulhu as written of by Lovecraft (HPL): High Priest of the Old Ones who
are Outside, that will be unleashed through the gate which is Yog-Sothoth.
I.e., An Obic Priest (center column, Kaballa, that "opens the Gate
Yat-Zebaoth," among other things. Similar to releasing the Seals in the Book
of Revelation.). (Need to add this for you: an Ob, person possessed of the
"spirit of Ob." The Ob - a negation of the Light within a negation of
kundalini, vajra, dorje, logos - it's called by those things in various
languages that, heh, I do NOT think are obscure at all. Also any
necromancer such as Bahalath Ob to Hebrews - see also UB words below). This
will result in utter Chaos. Then the Old Ones will walk once again, where we
walk now. When the stars are right or, "when the spaces between the stars
are more wide." (The Big Crunch, cf. physics, Penrose; expanding universe
equals spaces between stars being wider.) (New data shows that the universe
is not slowing down and tending toward a crunch in the way that anyone might
think of this. In other words, objects inside of space/time do not behave as
space/time itself behaves at all. The universe is expanding faster,
expansion is increasing, not slowing down, according to the latest Hubble
and other finds. Now, interestingly, it is the dark voids of space BETWEEN
the matter in galaxies that is blowing up like a bubble; and the matter in
the galaxies puts a brake on it keeping it from expanding way too fast.
Some call it a repulsion force, some call it a cosmological constant, some
call it dark energy. So then, the spaces between galaxies are literally
getting more wide!) [HPL]. ALSO: Alien, enemy of Crinoids (Star-Headed "Old
Ones" or "Elder Things" in the story "Mountains of Madness") that came to
earth [HPL]. There are also polyp-octopoids that may be the race that
Cthulhu came with. Or the Polyps may be a separate race distinct from the
Octopoids. The Octopoids are definitely Cthulhu's race. But the Polyps are
the race that the Race of Yith was fleeing from. [Derleth, fanzine Yith
Trilogy, Jantsang, Marsh]. (Possibly similar to the Arabic Khadhulu. The
word occurs in the Koran, meaning "forsaker" or "abandoner." Also note that
in Aramiac Ketul-hu means, "he who is imprisoned." The Arabic root word
Katala means to fetter or imprison. R'lyeh could possibly be Uralia, the
Urallic lands; Ural Altaics are associated in Biblical scholarship with Gog
and Magog from the line of Japhet. Also R'lyeh is an acceptable
transcription of the Arabic Galiyah or r'allyah since the "g" is a glottal
"r" sometimes rendered by an "r" or "r' " and galiyah means boiling.) The
story "Call of Cthulhu" was a deliberate parody of the Book of Revelation;
HPL said this in one of his letters. In that book, in short and
specifically, one sees someone that is "like unto" a son of man; his hair is
white and his eyes are flaming fire; his voice is like many waters. He's in
the midst of seven candles. In his right hand he shows seven stars and out
of his mouth comes a double edged sword. He claims to be the alpha and
omega, he claims that he is living though he is/was dead and that he is
alive forever and ever, though he may die, he is alive (That is not dead,
which can eternal lie...). He has the keys to Hell and Death. Later the
visionary sees a throne and One sitting on this throne. The One on the
throne is like looking at jasper and sardine stone and there is a rainbow
around the throne like an emerald. Around this throne are 24 elders wearing
tiaras or crowns of gold. In front of this is a sea of glass like a crystal
and in the middle of the throne and around the throne are 4 living beasts
full of eyes before and behind and within (like shoggoths), that never rest
and that worship the One that lives forever and ever. And it goes on to say
that no man of heaven, or earth, or under the earth is able to open the book
or unlock the Seals. Later it is said about the One on the throne, that all
must hide from its face. Of course, the Seals that contain The Awful Stuff
are opened and that heralds the end of the world.
Cthulhu with Derleth and the other writers' input: Tangaroa or Kanaloa, the
octopus god that came to earth from outer space (Emma-ya? Xoth: Sirius, or
SOTHIS, Greek). Cthulhu came here with its three sons [Carter]. It fought a
war with either other gods, or its half-brother Hastur, and the land it came
to sunk beneath the Pacific. It retains control over sentient swimming
creatures. [Derleth, based on Tangaroa, oldest known Polynesian religion]
(Note: HPL--ship in Call of Cthulhu is the Emma.)
Ghatanothoa: Another name of Cthulhu/Tangaroa, brought to earth by aliens
on Pluto, tyrant-ruler of Mu. [HPL's intent, written for Hazel Heald]. OR:
A son of Cthulhu born on Xoth a binary star (cf. Sothis: Sirius a binary
star) when Cthulhu mated with Idh-yaa or Quum-yaa, [from Mu cycle, wife
being Isis, Cthulhu being Osiris: Lin Carter from Churchward's Mu-Egyptian
fantasy]
Zoth-Ommog: Alternate spelling "Satomaga" literally means SAT, OM, and AGA.
(Note to YOU, when Carter gave that zatomaga as an alternate spelling, WELL,
all of a sudden, it was LANGUAGE and I understood it; it means what I just
said it means). A title for what Cthulhu itself would really be, in HPL's
original story: a High Priest, or AGA, of the "SAT" and "OM" - SAT is the
boundless darkness, OM is the Demiurgos, Bahu, the Root. Center column
Kaballistic Tradition. Cf. also Ubbo-Sathla. [Hermetic-Tantrik]. OR:
Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth, though alternate spelling is given by this
author, who was occultist enough to know that UB-ASAT are the Demiurge,
which he wrote in his "Eibon" story. [Lin Carter]. Any adept of the Zoth-om
(Sat-Om) or Z'th-om or Zot-om according to the Yuggya. [Jantsang].
Ythogtha: Another son of Cthulhu from Xoth. [Lin Carter] - though Lin's
description of this deity or entity is identical to the Ophioneus of
Pythagoreans, or Leviathan. [Hermetic-Hebrew] Ythogtha is in Yhe, he is
the second Yugg deity, along with Zoth-Ommog. Protective Spiritual Principle
of the Yuggya [Jantsang]. E-choc-tah: place of worms, Amerind.
Xoth: a note on this. Xoth is the binary star where Cthulhu, wife and sons
were, [Carter]. I do not think this is the same as Clark Ashton Smith's
planet Zoth because Smith's Zoth was connected to Tsathoggua. In the Xothic
cycle, Tsathoggua doesn't exist. Carter would not change something Smith
wrote; ergo Xoth is another place. Since Carter, in the story "Curse of the
Black Pharaoh" chose to write the Arabic word "Djinn" or "Jinn" like this:
"Xin," I assume then that Xoth is pronounced similarly as Djoth (the "dj"
said as in the word jar) or Joth, using a soft "J" sound in the word or
using Joth, such as the soft "J" sound in the word "de jure" or as the "z"
is pronounced in the word "azure." Neither Zoth-Ommog nor any of the Zoth,
Z'th, or Zot words of the Yuggya are connected to Smith's Zoth.
Ubbo-Sathla: The primordial slime from which all things came to live,
[C.A. Smith]. Demiurge that is linked to Azathoth [Lin Carter] Ialdabaoth,
Child of Bahu, concealed in the OM.
Abhoth: same as Ubbo-Sathla. Literally AB and OTH (father with a plural
female ending!) [Hebrew]
Ubb: Same as Ubbo-Sathla, and/or progenitor of the Yuggs, the Worms of the
Earth. [Lin Carter]. Ubbia, figurative Italian-Sicilian-Cypriot slang for
"Maggot" more akin to "Worm idol-worship," the Ouroboros or Worm that eats
its tail (Ur-Ub, or Ur-Ob-orus later Serpent) used in "Other Nations" by
Tani Jantsang for the progenitor of the race of Yuggya. (In that my view is
that Ubbo-Sathla is the Demiurge or Bahu, but that Ubb is an Old One, like
Cthulhu and is the progenitor of the Yuggs and the Yuggya.) Hermetic sacred
symbol representing the Cosmos's Beginning/End as if seen as One Event,
(physics). Likewise, Ob, the Asat, or Azoth, Vortex - oblivion, Karmik
eraser. Obeah, same in Voodoo with Damballah being the Serpent (Voodoo,
from Vaudois, French). UBer, Old Turko-Tatar - sorcerer of the dark kind
(Boga is of the light kind). Ub-Aur, Bulgarian; Ob-Aur, Hebrew: same. Uba
or Oba: idol, Turko-Mongol. UPir, vampire in Slavic languages.
Yog-Sothoth: The Gate that knows the Old Ones [HPL see above under
Cthulhu]. Yat-Zebaoth [Hermetic-Kaballistic] (HPL's father's brother was
of this tradition, HPL defined Yat-Zebaoth).
Azathoth: Asat-sat OR Asat, Azoth. 1st: non-being/being. 2nd: non-being,
the Kether-Ob-Aur [Hermetic-Kaballistic tradition], or Azoth, Ialdabaoth
the Child of Chaos in alchemy. [Asat and Sat are standard Vedanta]. Arabic
Izzu (power of) and Thoth (power of Thoth, or Tahuti).
Nyarlathotep: The Soul and Messenger of all the Old Ones. Hermes/Thoth,
Mahakala. In incarnate form, the same as Black God of Sorcerers and
Witches. [HPL, Bloch, Price & other writers on this]. Possibly from the
Sanskrit name of this which is Narayana but highly doubtful - HPL claimed he
dreamed this name out of the blue in a nightmare of nightmares - after the
dream he began writing CM stories! Ob-ran and Ka-ran; Ob- and Ka- ran, RAN:
chaos. Right and left "hands" or aspects of Nyarlathotep [Tani Jantsang].
Used in "Dark Hand of God" [W. Hill]. Nyarlathotep would be the Cthulhu
Mythos name for the Dark Lord of Transcendent Awareness in our own org and
in my culture. (Dr. Price, Crypt of Cthulhu #2, confirms Mahakala would be
Nyarlathotep). Nyarlathotep as depicted by mythos writers, nasty, mean,
horribly bloody like Rudra, inciting chaos, is like a Warrior Lama said to
be using Towo forms; Nyarlathotep as pro diversity, pro complexity, both of
which would be regarded as chaos by people wanting to keep the status quo,
Nyarlathotep as pro going-with-the-flow, pro liberation is another matter
way too positive for mythos stories). Egyptian words: NY HAR RUT and then
Hotep meaning there is no rest/peace at the Gate, but there is no deity in
Egypt with that name. Nyarlathotep is the Crawling Chaos.
Shub-Niggurath: Pan, the Androgyne Goat of Mendes, the Black Goat of the
Woods. [in all fiction] Nyarlathotep would be the Real Thing Itself;
Shub-Niggurath would be as Yig, this force/energy IN LIVING THINGS,
Ubbo-Sathla would the Bahu or root of it in matter, [T. Jantsang]. Shab
(Arabic) Nigritia (Latin) - Dark Youth.
Yig or Yg. The "Y" of "YI" - Serpent of Wisdom. Word means "serpent."
[HPL]
Tsathoggua: toad god [C.A. Smith] Sadogwa, Mali word for an adept of the
SAT, or SOD. Same tradition as related above under Ubb. Sod-ihoh, Hebrew
word for same.
Cthugha: fire elemental from Fomalhaut [Derleth]. Thuggee (India) cult of
Kali sorcerers and actual murderers. Kali is the Black Tongue of Fire in
their tradition.
Nyogtha: earth elemental. Nitthogar, Norse idea of the cthonic portion of
the Tree Yggdrasail.
Ran-tegoth: a monster! Ran-tik-oth ?, literally "plural chaos-made
manifest-in a yin manner" Hebrew/Hermetic; Ran is Japanese for Chaos.
Zhar: definition varies with stories. Zar: Somali, a possessing
demon/sprite. Zarr: tornado causing wind god [Tierney]
Shudde-M'ell: underground squid, one species of Cthonic beings in G'harne
(Africa). [Brian Lumley] or Shuddam-El: Shai-urt-ab, The Worm of Destiny,
Apophis, Leviathan. [Tierney]. Shidda al-Mu'ell (Arabic, shidda is
violence; al-Mu'ell is causer of destruction).
Ithaqua: air elemental, the Wendigo [Derleth]. Air god of Borea, another
world [Lumley].
Atlach-Nacha: spider-like web weaver [CA Smith, Lumley]. Agawanaja: weaves
a spider-like web of you. [paintings of Cro-Magnon in caves]. Ha Malech Ha
Moveth or the Sam-Moveth-Az, similar to Samael, the Angel of Death that
weaves a web of destruction on the Tree of Life [Jantsang].
worms, "Burrowers Beneath.") [Yugg: Lin Carter. Yuggya worm-folk, the
Yuggya Collective, T. Jantsang]
Shoggoths: watchdogs for the Deep Ones and other Cthulhu related allies,
formerly slaves of the Crinoids. The "Ommith?" [occult lore].
Othuum: leader of the polyp-octopoid Cthulhu-spawn, like Pesh-Tlen [Lumley],
the original Cthulhu spawn [HPL], trapped outside our dimension with MU
[Kuttner]. TOOM: same as Proteus (protons), Egyptian, issued from Osiris in
the form of Noot "The Great Deeps" or BAHU, Demiurge.
Mi-go: Mi-gu Burmese, the Yeti, abominable snowmen.
Tcho-tcho: cho'tger or "cho cho" Tatar/Tibetan dialect. Sorcerer who uses
the Black Flame to harm.
kLu - Sacred "Naga" Serpents - Bon-po
Kn'yan -gNyan - rock dwelling creatures- Bon-po, Mimigwesso - Tierney
gZer-myig - Major Sacred Books- Bon-po
Nkai, similar to Naki, Naka, Naga, Ngai. The Nagaloka (pre-Sanskrit Naga and
Amerind: Nagal).
Sign of Kish and Sigil of Sarnath, literally OUR STAR, Eye, Flame, and Tree
image. Kish is a city in Babylon that warred with Sargon a Priest of Dagon,
historical. Sarnath is where the Buddha gave the Fire sermon of the FIVE
Dharma (truths) shown on our star. (Carter and Derleth: Elder Sign.) HPL's
Elder Sign was "like a swastika" not our pentacle! 2 points up is the
CORRECT way, HOUSE in center. Eastern Star - same pentacle. I would imagine
that the writers changed HPL's Swastika protective sigil into something else
due to the connection with the Nazis during/after to World War Two. There
would be no other logical reason to so drastically alter what Lovecraft
wrote. Carter then went further and claimed that it was not the sigil itself
that did anything; it was the material that the sigil was made of which was
slightly radioactive [Xothic Cycle].
Vach-Viraj: As a formula, an incantation to ward off Nyogtha [Kuttner] and
the cthonians [Lumley]. After the Unknown Darkness, Thatness or Aditi, Vach
is the Divine Female, Viraj is the Divine Male [Brahmanic system], similar
to the Boundless Darkness and the Vajra within - together Vajra-yogini, in
Tantra. Vach is also referred to as Sata-rupa (Sat plus rupa - Being and
Form). The same meaning to the Yuggya [Jantsang]. (Yuggya have Zoth or Z'th
or Zot, the Unknown similar to Ain Soph or Aditi; they have Vach and Viraj,
and Om [Jantsang]). A formula using this, or a yoga using this would be
similar to the Chod Rite, Void Yoga and use of Siddhi to the Yuggya
[Jantsang], standard Vajrayana things.
Mnar: Na'ur - Altaic word meaning LAKE. Modern version: NOR. All lakes
in the area today are still called "Nor" as in Lopnor, Kokonor, etc.
The Old Ones: Possibly an alien, demonized take-off on the Chronian
Mythology. Plutarch said: "Demons serve and minister unto Cronos, whose
companions they were when He reigned upon Gods and men....." The Kabiri
are the Elder Ones or in Hebrew Kabbir meaning Great Ones, the root has both
meanings - Kabira means to be old or older, kabura means to be big or
strong. Further, gabirum, that word makes them gods of the underworld, the
root gabara means to bury. The idea of Kabirim prevailed in the Arabic Kabir
and Hebrew Kabbir. Plutarch adopted a version. In Plutarch's story they are
Powers of divination who convey the god's DREAMS to his SACRED PRIESTS on
the Fortunate Isle of Ogyia-Pelagia. (Is it a coincidence that Pelagic means
under the ocean?) This is the same KIND of paradigm here, just turned by HPL
into something with a more modern and "outer space, alien" flavor to it and,
of course, the deities were turned into frightening entities. Chronos is a
good god of the golden age - HPL and company had the Old Ones ruling in a
PRIOR AGE, too - but they were not "good gods." The coming of the Old Ones
is an admitted mockery of the Armegeddon story in the Book of Revelation.
Hastur: not a Cthulhu Mythos entity, a sherpherd god [Ambrose Bierce], a
force of stagnation and stasis [Robert Chambers] the enemy of Cthulhu
[Derleth], the enemy of all the old ones hinted by saying those that wear
the Yellow Sign are enemies of the Old Ones [HPL]. Ha-Set-Ur - SET in a
Jesus-form [Tierney] - the tyrant deity that tries to be the only deity.
Hastur: Marion Zimmer Bradley, NOT CTHULHU MYTHOS, Hastur is a nice deity.
In Derleth, the enemy of Cthulhu. HPL wanted nothing to do with the Hastur
tales or the people who wrote them. His negative reference to it in
Whisperer in Darkness was probably his way of saying to Derleth "I don't
accept this entity" just as his altered spelling of Tsathoggua included as
an entity was his way of approving of CA Smith's invented entity.
One more thing, the only reason some of these things are given here with
ONLY mythos definitions is because they were used to "encode" certain things
eg, towo forms of protective "spirits" - protective of the 5 Dhamas.
AAACH. towo - fearsome, terrifying, destructive. Dharmas the 5 Wisdoms.
Standard Vajrayana. These particular mythos names were wholly invented,
too.
You could have sincerely asked and not flamed. Consider that next time. I
posted it to SHARE. So then, I pass you some delicious food - but you have
no idea what it is. Instead of asking me what it is, you throw it in my
face?
Sorry, that doen't sit too well. You people are NOTHING like the old mythos
writers. That is a real shame. And that other guy is like a ravening dog
LOVING to just nap at people's feet over what amounts to NOTHING. Not just
my feet either. NYAAA NYAAA they Greeks spoke Greek. Yeah, ok, but their
concepts are acknowledged by every single scholar to be markedly eastern
during the pre-Socratic time - so they did NOT think "like folks do today."
Not by a long shot. You could have asked. Obviously, I was grateful for
the corrected ARABIC spelling of Khadullu and inspired to look up more old
notes I had on this and ran into the Aramiac note. Even closer and it's
legit alright. The words DO mean that. The note on the Chronian, and a
few other notes. I see I LEFT OUT Ho agios to theo - but I got Yat-Z in
there. I immediately thought Yog S was Yat-Z when I read the Dunwich Horror
cause HPl supplied a dead giveawy. SURE< he used this stuff whch was
obscure to WHOM? Wasp culture? Not to any Hebrews out there. You could
have asked. Not gone off the cliff with "that fish head guy nya nya" due to
a typo that someone else made in an article I PASTED in here with the movie
Dagon in mind, article about Pope's headdress. Again, to SHARE. You know
what? Eventually NO ONE will share.
Cheers. I think.