A Lumley Cthuvian Fragment

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cyber...@my-deja.com

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Oct 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/1/00
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We've finally put out the fires here at the Cthuvian Language Labs and
hired some new scribes. You've got to be careful working with Cthuvian,
one wrong word and *poof!* Those Outer Gods can't take a joke....

Anyway, here's a fragment from Lumley's *The Burrowers Beneath.*

Ya na kadishtu nilgh'ri stell'bsna Nyogtha,
K'yarnak phlegethor l'ebumna syha'h n'ghft,
Ya hai kadishtu ep r'luh-eeh Nyogtha eeh,
s'uhn-ngh athg li'hee orr'e syha'h.

The first line and a half we already did, since they're straight from
Kuttner's "Salem Horror:"

I knew nothing at all
I petitioned Nyogtha
We shared our thoughts

As for the rest....

The prefix L means "beside," and, knowing Nyogtha, "ebumna" is "pit."
What kind of pit? "Syha'h" means "eternity;" "n'ghft" is related to
"n'gha" (death), probably "darkness."

We've already translated "Ya" as "I" and "kadishtu" as "know" or
"understand." After 'sharing thoughts' with Nyogtha, we can assume that
the writer means "I now understand."

"Ep" is a curious word. It's possible that the transcriptionist, eager
to catch every significant sound, actually caught a belch (write your
own joke). In conjunction with "hai," though, I'm guessing it means
"only now," that is, that some time has passed since the previous event
and the current event is a direct result.

"Eeh," as noted in an earlier fragment, means "answers," although the
final H may indicate some kind of voice change, or even an appositive
marker. "R'luh" means "secret" or "hidden" (note the correspondence with
"R'lyeh," which might mean "Secret City" or "Hidden Palace").
"R'luh-eeh" thus means "secret lore" or "forbidden knowledge," but in
the sense that it has been provided to one, not discovered or wrested
from its source.

"S'uhn-ngh" has that same root "ngh" (darkness), so we'll say "s'uhn"
means "agreement" or "pact." It follows that "athg" is "sign" or
"pledge;" that "li'hee" is "on pain of" or "answer with;" and that
"orr'e" is "soul" or "spirit" (contrast with 'bthnk' [body] and 'lloig'
[psyche]).

The literal translation:

I know nothing, [I] petition Nyogtha,
[We] exchange data {lit. 'force from cyberspace'},
beside [the] pit [of] eternal darkness,
Only now do I know the hidden lore [with which] Nyogtha responded,
[This] unholy pact [do I] sign [lest I] answer with my eternal spirit.


In some kind of regular meter, like the original:

I knew nothing at all, I petitioned Nyogtha,
We shared our thoughts beside the darkest pit,
I know now the dark wisdom Nyogtha imparts,
This dark pledge I seal with my immortal soul.

An aside: after studying Spencer's fragments, I'm inclined to classify
them as non-Cthuvian. For one thing, there are an awful lot of Xs, and
odd as it sounds, we haven't yet encountered this exotic letter in a
true Cthuvian fragment. Another hint is the word 'barsoom,' which
Burroughs fans will recall from his John Carter stories as the Martian
name for their planet; it's not relevant to the Mythos (as far as I
know...) so it must be considered a 'false cognate,' that is, a word
spelled the same in another language but with a different meaning.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Toff Philipppo

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Oct 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/1/00
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Good stuff!

Have you created a website for the Cthuvian Language Labs?

Perhaps you could upgrade and repost your earlier posts on Cthuvian.

Thanks,

Toff


cyber...@my-deja.com

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Oct 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/3/00
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Toff Philipppo wrote:
> Have you created a website for the Cthuvian Language Labs?
> Perhaps you could upgrade and repost your earlier posts on Cthuvian.

There's no website yet, but a couple of offers to host, and I'm
considering setting up my own eclectic site. All this junk should
probably be on the Web somewhere as a resource for Mythos writers and
fans.

By the way, I've never been comfortable with the name "Cthuvian." While
going over some old fragments I found Carter's "Dee Translation," with
what is allegedly the Vach-Viraj Incantation. Previously I had ignored
it because it was in Senzar, not Cthuvian. Well, guess what, it *is*
Cthuvian after all. I therefore move that the name "Cthuvian," which
ties the language to Cthulhu, be changed to "Senzar." Seconds?

Christopher K. Philippo

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Oct 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/3/00
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cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:

Could you provide more of the context which desribed it as Senzar?

It could be confusing to name what you've been referring to as cthuvian as
senzar.

The Ancient Language of Senzar
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/soph/sopqa03.htm#ancientlanguage

Toff


cyber...@my-deja.com

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Oct 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/3/00
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Christopher K. Philippo wrote:
> Could you provide more of the context which desribed it as Senzar?
> It could be confusing to name what you've been referring to as
> cthuvian as senzar.

All I can tell you at the moment is that it appears in the Lin Carter
piece, "The _Necronomicon:_ The Dee Translation." This appears in the
Chaosium collection _The Necronomicon,_ and no doubt in other places.

And yes, it could be confusing. We call our language English, but the
French call it anglais, the Spanish ingles, and the Germans allemande
(although somebody could call me on that). When you refer to a language,
it depends on what language you're speaking at the time.

I don't even remember who coined the word "Cthuvian." I've seen the same
language referred to as "R'lyehian." Seems to me the name isn't
important, it's not even a real language. Both of those names, however,
refer back to Cthulhu, and the various fragments tie into most (if not
all) of the Great Old Ones. As I said earlier, I'd like to use a
different name, and Senzar seems as good as any. However, suggestions
are welcome.

Christopher K. Philippo

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Oct 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/3/00
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cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Christopher K. Philippo wrote:
> > Could you provide more of the context which desribed it as Senzar?
> > It could be confusing to name what you've been referring to as
> > cthuvian as senzar.
>
> All I can tell you at the moment is that it appears in the Lin Carter
> piece, "The _Necronomicon:_ The Dee Translation." This appears in the
> Chaosium collection _The Necronomicon,_ and no doubt in other places.

A single reference might be too obscure (unless the source were Lovecraft
himself). The term with the widest usage should probably be selected.

> And yes, it could be confusing. We call our language English, but the
> French call it anglais, the Spanish ingles, and the Germans allemande
> (although somebody could call me on that). When you refer to a language,
> it depends on what language you're speaking at the time.

I think all those words come from the same root word, so this is different
than discussing Cthuvian/R'lyehian/Senzar.

> I don't even remember who coined the word "Cthuvian." I've seen the same
> language referred to as "R'lyehian." Seems to me the name isn't
> important, it's not even a real language. Both of those names, however,
> refer back to Cthulhu, and the various fragments tie into most (if not
> all) of the Great Old Ones. As I said earlier, I'd like to use a
> different name, and Senzar seems as good as any. However, suggestions
> are welcome.

I don't know the source of Cthuvian either. It seems a fair choice,
though, but R'lyehian seems even better. I got several hits for the latter
in the Glossary of Cthulhu Mythos Terms Compiled by Chris Jarocha-Ernst at
Necronomicon Press http://www.necropress.com/

R'lyehian - prehuman language ("The Trail of Cthulhu", August Derleth)

R'lyehian - language -- not in Havering's book ("Out of the Ages", Lin
Carter)

R'lyehian - Colonel James Churchward did "speculative work" on R'lyehian --
not related to the "Elder Script"
("The Fishers from Outside", Lin Carter)

R'lyehian - the R'lyeh Text is written in the Miskatonic University Library
has the "Hoskins Translation" of the
R'lyeh Text ("The Strange Doom of Enos Harker" (fragment),
Lin Carter)

"R'lyehian" - "N'ggah-kthn-y'hhu! Cthua t'lh gup r'lhob-g'th'gg lgh thok!
G'llh-ya, Tsathoggua! Y'kn'nh,
Tsathoggua! ... Ia! Ia! G'noth-ykagga-ha! Ia! Ia!
Tsathoggua!!!" ("Letter 429", SELECTED
LETTERS, H. P. Lovecraft)

"R'lyehian" - "YSSShh . . bugg-shoggogg . . . . . n'ghah" -- "W'ygh" [as an
exclamation] ("Letter 404",
SELECTED LETTERS, H. P. Lovecraft)

"R'lyehian" - [text in the gutteral language resembling the "Cthulhu
fthagn" chant] -- "I must not delay in
expressing my ... delight at The Tale of Satampra Zeiros ...
Yug! n'gha k'yun bth'gth R'lyeh gllur
ph'ngui Cthulhu yzkaa . . . . what an atmosphere!" ("Letter
383", SELECTED LETTERS, H. P.
Lovecraft)

There were two hits for Senzar

Senzar - language -- not in Havering's book ("Out of the Ages", Lin Carter)

Senzar - primal language -- the Vach-Viraj Incantation is written in Senzar
("Of the Worlds Beyond This World, and
the Modes of Travel", Lin Carter)

None for Cthuvian or Cthulhuvian. Maybe a look at the book, I forget its
name exactly, the Cthulhu Mythos Glossary and Bibliography would be
helpful.

I just tried searching the internet for cthuvian (few hits) cthulhuvian
(more hits) and R'lyehian (about the same). The lattermost seems the most
often used of the three when pertaining specifically to language, however.
Senzar will necessarily involve a number of hits because it appears it may
have been a real language, or perhaps an imaginary theosophist language.

Anyway, one very interesting thing I found (which might be apocryphal) is:

R'lyehian As A Toy Language
scholarly monograph by Philip Marsh on the
psycholinguistics of R’lyehian, includes lexicon!   $10.00
ORDER FROM:
PHILIP MARSH
P.O. BOX 85
LEHIGH ACRES, FL 33970-0085
http://www.apodion.com/vad/tani/index-taninfo.shtml

Toff
--
"Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits---and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!"

Michael Clarke

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Oct 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/4/00
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On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:50:42 GMT, "Christopher K. Philippo"
<cphi...@NYCAP.rr.com> wrote:

>
>
>cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Christopher K. Philippo wrote:
>> > Could you provide more of the context which desribed it as Senzar?
>> > It could be confusing to name what you've been referring to as
>> > cthuvian as senzar.
>>
>> All I can tell you at the moment is that it appears in the Lin Carter
>> piece, "The _Necronomicon:_ The Dee Translation." This appears in the
>> Chaosium collection _The Necronomicon,_ and no doubt in other places.

>> I don't even remember who coined the word "Cthuvian." I've seen the same


>> language referred to as "R'lyehian." Seems to me the name isn't
>> important, it's not even a real language. Both of those names, however,
>> refer back to Cthulhu, and the various fragments tie into most (if not
>> all) of the Great Old Ones. As I said earlier, I'd like to use a
>> different name, and Senzar seems as good as any. However, suggestions
>> are welcome.
>
>I don't know the source of Cthuvian either. It seems a fair choice,
>though, but R'lyehian seems even better. I got several hits for the latter
>in the Glossary of Cthulhu Mythos Terms Compiled by Chris Jarocha-Ernst at
>Necronomicon Press http://www.necropress.com/

For what it's worth, CthulhuMud has three mythos languages defined:


# Cthonian languages

SKILL stygian~
Group 32

SKILL atlantean~
Group 32

SKILL cthonic~
Group 32

One from REH, one from general mythology and one from HPL. If it's
any benefit, there are already a number of characters that can speak
Cthonic.

Mik

cyber...@my-deja.com

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Oct 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/5/00
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Christopher K. Philippo wrote:
> Could you provide more of the context which desribed it as Senzar?

Okay, I pulled out my copy of Chaosium's _Necronomicon_ (the fiction
collection, not the alleged tome). Lin Carter collected some passages
from hints about its contents in a piece entitled "The _Necronomicon:_
The Dee Translation." In Book IV, Section II, "Of the Several Modes to
Enforce the Dismissal," it saith:

Summon *Nyogtha* if thou must, but at thy peril, and have to hand the
proper instruments to enforce the Dismissal, whereof I have found most
potent and powerful the Vach-Viraj incantation, which is to say, in the
primal Senzar, known to Sorcerers and by all Men else forgot,...
[fragment follows]

Michael Clarke

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Oct 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/6/00
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Hmmmm... I think not. Senzar is already taken...

http://www.senzarnet.com.ar/

(a town?)

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice.htm

The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblong squares; copies very
often on discs. These discs, or plates, are generally preserved on the
altars of the temples attached to centres where the so-called
"contemplative" or Mahayana (Yogacharya) schools are established. They
are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan but mostly in ideographs.
The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may
be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters, which
partake more of the nature of ideographs than of syllables. Another
method (lug, in Tibetan) is to use the numerals and colours, each of
which corresponds to a letter of the Tibetan alphabet (thirty simple
and seventy-four compound letters) thus forming a complete
cryptographic alphabet. When the ideographs are used there is a
definite mode of reading the text; as in this case the symbols and
signs used in astrology, namely the twelve zodiacal animals and the
seven primary colours, each a triplet in shade, i.e. the light, the
primary, and the dark -- stand for the thirty-three letters of the
simple alphabet, for words and sentences. For in this method, the
twelve "animals" five times repeated and coupled with the five
elements and the seven colours, furnish a whole alphabet composed of
sixty sacred letters and twelve signs. A sign placed at the
beginning of the text determines whether the reader has to spell it
according to the Indian mode, when every word is simply a Sanskrit
adaptation, or according to the Chinese principle of reading the
ideographs. The easiest way however, is that which allows the reader
to use no special, or any language he likes, as the signs and
symbols were, like the Arabian numerals or figures, common and
international property among initiated mystics and their followers.
The same peculiarity is characteristic of one of the Chinese modes of
writing, which can be read with equal facility by any one acquainted
with the character: for instance, a Japanese can read it in his own
language as readily as a Chinaman in his.

http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/reigle01.html
(more on the theosophists)

http://idt.net/~pdeveney/occas.html
(theophisiacl history)

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/dzyan.htm
(more on The Book of Dyzan)

http://209.207.239.212/bk/meditation/medi1150.html
Sensa (Senzar) The name for the secret sacerdotal language, or the
"mystery speech" of the initiated adepts all over the world. It is a
universal language, and largely a hieroglyphic cypher.

http://www.senzar.com/
(an RPG)

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arkham/80/cuneiform.html
(delta Green/CoC supplement)

http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/local/h-pages/palden/pal-4sym.html
(crop circles)

http://www.easy.com.au/spicycle/Seven%20Ray%20Tabulations.html
(seven rays tabulations plus...)
Senzar The secret language or "mystery speech" of initiated adepts all
over the world. It is very ancient, and predates Sanskrit.

http://www.yankeeclassic.com/miskatonic/libscien/hplbooks/textsbk/dzyan.htm
Book of Dzyan

According to L. Sprague de Camp, this is a fictional book concocted by
Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, founder of Theolophy, in her 'Secret
Doctrine (1888). This treatise, a mass of fakery and plagarism,
consists mainly of quotations from the "Dzyan" (pronounced something
like
"John") interspersed with commentaries and diatribes. Although Mme.
Blavatsky said that the "Dzyan" was originally written in Atlantis in
the lost Senzar language, it is actually paraphrased without credit
from an English translation of the ancient Sanskrit "Rig-Veda."

("The Haunter of the Dark")

See also: Dzyan

http://www.meditationtraining.org/study/wm-06.htm
(White magic?)

http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html
(theosophists = Kabalists?)

http://members.aol.com/Cabala111/111-1-6.html
(numerology from the kabala)


http://hiprofile.com/press/kmt/glossary.htm
1) Nomarch = A state official of a certain region, like a Governor
2) The Holy of Hollies = A sacred and holy room that only the
divine should enter.
3) Amon-Ra = The name by which the Egyptians called their almighty
GOD.
4) Lapis Lazuli = A semi-precious stone made of a type of glass.
5) Senzar = The name of a secret language the Egyptians spoke.
6) Maåt, = a Divine Being: meaning Truth & Justice.
7) A Tenkenu or Obelisk = is a monument containing writings.
Cleopatra's needle is also an obelisk and the DC Monument is a
copy of an obelisk.
8) Tutanxamen = In the living Image of GOD.
9) Neter = The world or domain of the dead.

http://www.hermetic.com/wisdom/lib-follis.html
(more kabalistic nermerological stuff)

Actually, there might be a few good source pages to steal CoC material
from amongst this lot...

Mik

cyber...@my-deja.com

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Oct 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/10/00
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Michael Clarke did research above and beyond the call, and reported:

> The original Precepts ... are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan
> but mostly in ideographs....


> The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may

> be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters....

> Senzar = The name of a secret language the Egyptians spoke.

Is it possible that all these versions of Senzar are derived from the
original Cthuvian? Since it's basically telepathic, a written or spoken
form can never be more than a 'thumbnail' of the original message.

Which proves your point. Senzar is nothing but a written human version
of the language used by the Other Gods.

Michael Clarke

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Oct 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/11/00
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:54:23 GMT, cyber...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Michael Clarke did research above and beyond the call, and reported:
>

>> The original Precepts ... are written variously, sometimes in Tibetan
>> but mostly in ideographs....


>> The sacerdotal language (Senzar), besides an alphabet of its own, may

>> be rendered in several modes of writing in cypher characters....


>
>> Senzar = The name of a secret language the Egyptians spoke.
>

>Is it possible that all these versions of Senzar are derived from the
>original Cthuvian? Since it's basically telepathic, a written or spoken
>form can never be more than a 'thumbnail' of the original message.
>
>Which proves your point. Senzar is nothing but a written human version
>of the language used by the Other Gods.

Considering that it is variously attributed to a (fictisious?)
tibetten source, atlantus and Egypt there shouldn't be any problem
tracing in back to hyperborean times (stygian?) and beyond...

Mik

jennie

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Oct 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/12/00
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On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:57:22 GMT, cyber...@my-deja.com
<cyber...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>And yes, it could be confusing. We call our language English, but the
>French call it anglais, the Spanish ingles, and the Germans allemande
>(although somebody could call me on that).

The Germans call it Englisch. Allemand is French for German. :)

Jennie

--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
Webpages now updated at: http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
Back on news. Not yet back on mail. ETA for mail four days.

joer...@my-deja.com

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Oct 15, 2000, 8:26:27 PM10/15/00
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Encyclopedia Cthulhiana has (at least) two other occult languages:
Aklo, presumably the language of the Serpent People
and, tataaa, Naacal, supposed to be the language of ancient Mu.
Especially the second seems quite close to any R`lyehan tongue.

Joerg

kazuy...@gmail.com

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Jun 4, 2020, 3:29:47 AM6/4/20
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> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

???

kazuy...@gmail.com

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Jun 4, 2020, 3:30:16 AM6/4/20
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On Sunday, 1 October 2000 12:30:00 UTC+5:30, Toff Philipppo wrote:
> Good stuff!
>
> Have you created a website for the Cthuvian Language Labs?
>
> Perhaps you could upgrade and repost your earlier posts on Cthuvian.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Toff
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