Should Cthulhu stories be posted?
Sherry Massey
Last week, I wrote and posted a couple of stories to alt.sex.cthulhu.
I've received a request to repost them here. But I've never read this
news group (didn't know it was here until I got the request).
I hate sifting through inappropriate messages, and I figure everyone else
does too. So, before I step on my fingers and comply with the request,
would such a post be welcome in this newsgroup?
Sherry
James Fellrath
I think a new Cthulhu Mythos story is always welcome - and kudos to your
for doing it in a place that is likely to get you lots of criticism and
praise, probably in that order. Go for it! I'd love to see what your
take on the Mythos is.
Jamie
BRUCE TURLISH
In article <3295E7...@mail.infoave.net>,
Sherry Massey <mass...@mail.infoave.net> wrote:
>Last week, I wrote and posted a couple of stories to alt.sex.cthulhu.
>I've received a request to repost them here. But I've never read this
>news group (didn't know it was here until I got the request).
>
>I hate sifting through inappropriate messages, and I figure everyone else
>does too. So, before I step on my fingers and comply with the request,
>would such a post be welcome in this newsgroup?
>
>Sherry
I would certainly think that *genuine* Cthulhu mythos fiction would be
welcome in this newsgroup (which sees woefully little *original* Cthulhu
mythos fiction, IMO). The one concern I would have is what the stories
contain; the postings on alt.sex.cthulhu seem to be almost entirely
pornographic bilge which have nothing to do with the Cthulhu mythos. But
if you think your stories have some merit and contain any Cthulhu mythos
elements whatsoever, my recommendation would be--go ahead and post!!
Bruce
btur...@nyx.net
Donovan Loucks
Sherry Massey <mass...@mail.infoave.net> wrote:
Last week, I wrote and posted a couple of stories to alt.sex.cthulhu.
I've received a request to repost them here. But I've never read this
news group (didn't know it was here until I got the request). I hate
sifting through inappropriate messages, and I figure everyone else does
too. So, before I step on my fingers and comply with the request,
would such a post be welcome in this newsgroup?
My suggestion is to post them to alt.horror.creative and then post a
pointer here indicating where they can be found. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
late with this suggestion, as you've already posted your stories. As
Bruce Turlish <btur...@nyx.net> predicted, these turned out to be
"pornographic bilge which have nothing to do with the Cthulhu mythos"...
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Donovan K. Loucks Phoenix, Arizona dlo...@primenet.com |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The H. P. Lovecraft Archive: http://www.primenet.com/~dloucks/hpl |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| alt.horror.cthulhu FAQ: |
| ftp://ftp.primenet.com/users/d/dloucks/alt.horror.cthulhu |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Sherry Massey
Donovan Loucks wrote:
> My suggestion is to post them to alt.horror.creative and then post a
> pointer here indicating where they can be found. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
> late with this suggestion, as you've already posted your stories. As
> Bruce Turlish <btur...@nyx.net> predicted, these turned out to be
> "pornographic bilge which have nothing to do with the Cthulhu mythos"...
Sorry you feel that way.
Sherry
BRUCE TURLISH
In article <329858...@mail.infoave.net>,
I would not be quite as harsh as Mr. Loucks in describing these two
pieces of Ms. Massey's. I think the "Its Eyes have all the seeming.."
piece has some nice touches of atmosphere. The "Worshiping
Shub-Niggurath" is pornographic and a little awkwardly written, but it is
actually quite suitable for a newsgroup like alt.sex.cthulhu, IMO. The
originality of plot and skillful writing is what is going to make or
break a Cthulhu mythos story, and I would encourage Sherry to put a
premium on those elements. At least she tried to write some original
Cthulhu mythos fiction, and I think she should be applauded for that.
Bruce
btur...@nyx.net
Christophe Thill
On 24 Nov 1996 16:03:24 -0700, btur...@nyx.cs.du.edu (BRUCE TURLISH)
wrote:
>I would not be quite as harsh as Mr. Loucks in describing these two
>pieces of Ms. Massey's. I think the "Its Eyes have all the seeming.."
>piece has some nice touches of atmosphere.
Agreed! The descriptions are great. So that's what it looks like,
inside R'lyeh? (Hey Sherry, how do YOU know..?) I think that a
graphical artist or a film-maker (or cartoon-maker) could get some
inspiration here.
> The "Worshiping
>Shub-Niggurath" is pornographic and a little awkwardly written, but it is
>actually quite suitable for a newsgroup like alt.sex.cthulhu, IMO.
I knew Donovan wouldn't like this one... :-)
As a non-native English speaker it's a bit harder for me to have an
opinion on the style but, I would agree with "a little awkward". And a
bit too heavy on sex, too. Going too much into detail... Try Grandpa
Lovecraft's advice: suggest more than you show.
> The
>originality of plot and skillful writing is what is going to make or
>break a Cthulhu mythos story, and I would encourage Sherry to put a
>premium on those elements. At least she tried to write some original
>Cthulhu mythos fiction, and I think she should be applauded for that.
I would say the same. Original ideas. Anyway I don't think that it's a
good idea to say "Shut up" to whoever creates something. So I say:
Carry on!
Christophe Thill - Paris, France
c_t...@worldnet.fr
ArKa/D/ia! Homepage: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/
HP Lovecraft page: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/hpl/
Big Bad Wolf
In article <32998db...@news.ind.mh.se> c_t...@worldnet.fr (Christophe Thill) writes:
>On 24 Nov 1996 16:03:24 -0700, btur...@nyx.cs.du.edu (BRUCE TURLISH)
>wrote:
>
>>I would not be quite as harsh as Mr. Loucks in describing these two
>>pieces of Ms. Massey's. I think the "Its Eyes have all the seeming.."
>>piece has some nice touches of atmosphere.
>
>Agreed! The descriptions are great. So that's what it looks like,
>inside R'lyeh? (Hey Sherry, how do YOU know..?) I think that a
Maybe she was visited by Chorazin in the night. :)
>I would say the same. Original ideas. Anyway I don't think that it's a
>good idea to say "Shut up" to whoever creates something. So I say:
>Carry on!
Agreed! Original fiction is always welcome in my book. Speaking of which,
will there be continuations on the 'Camp Cthulhu' theme story that I saw
a while back?
--
Keith C. Estanol / k...@netcom.com / Internet Member since 1989
"Angel on my shoulder, Devil in my pocket" / Atari and OS/2 Fanatics unite!
Mauro Reis
Christophe Thill wrote:
> As a non-native English speaker it's a bit harder for me to have an
> opinion on the style but, I would agree with "a little awkward". And a
> bit too heavy on sex, too. Going too much into detail... Try Grandpa
> Lovecraft's advice: suggest more than you show.
I agree with that, but I like the story, anyway. Isn't that what probably
occurs at the orgies of cultists? It's a different vision of the Mythos,
and I think it's valid.
A very good example (in my opinion) of a story which is very sexual in
its content without beeing graphic is "The Likeness", by Dan Perez.
I would like to see more stories on this newsgroup (unfortunately, I'm
not the one who can write them, as I lack the talent of a writer), so I
agree that we can't tell people to "shut up", as long as they submit
material that is pertinent to this newsgroup (I don't agree with spam).
If I don't like or get tired of a subject, I simply stop reading the news
related to it.
Mauro Reis
ma...@pluto.njcc.com
Christophe Thill
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:21:40 -0800, Mauro Reis <ma...@pluto.njcc.com>
wrote:
>Isn't that what probably
>occurs at the orgies of cultists? It's a different vision of the Mythos,
>and I think it's valid.
>A very good example (in my opinion) of a story which is very sexual in
>its content without beeing graphic is "The Likeness", by Dan Perez.
As the combination of horror and sex seems to be important in Sherry
Massey's tales, and as there are many things to say about this topic,
I think it could be discussed. OK, I'll start...
1- What may be the role of sex in a horror tale?
Several possibilities:
a- It's the main point, and the horror around it is only there for a
change. The sex scenes can be depicted either in a very soft, sensual
way, or in a crude and graphic way. In this case we have the right to
talk about "pornographic bilge": bad on both aspects.
b- It's an antidote to horror. For instance, as part of a love affair
developing in the middle of a horror situation. The sexual
relationship between the characters may provide some relief, introduce
some warmth in the ice-cold approach of horror. OK, you don't really
need sex for that. Decades ago, the writer would not have gone much
farther than just a little kiss... But hey, that's how we are today,
always asking for more :-) Anyway it seems to me that it's the way
Graham Masterton generally does, and I sure don't consider him as a
bad writer.
c- Now we're arriving closer to Sherry's approach: sex IS horror, sex
and horror reinforce each other. I don't know if there are many things
worse than suffering a sexual agression, that harms your body and mind
at the same time (and sanity too...). Now if the thing that's raping
you is an Old One, that it is not only ugly and slimy but that its
slightest touch FEELS evil, in a cosmic and non-human way... don't you
think that it is the supreme level of horror? Unfortunately if you
spoil too many words on basic descriptions, "and then he put his ***
into her ***" and so on, you loose a great part of this terror and
your effects fall flat.
2- What would Lovecraft have said about this?
To be frank, I don't know! But we can try to guess.
We know that sex was foreign to Lovecraft... or I'rather say alien...
But it doesn't mean that he didn't use it as a horror element. Only he
concentrated on horrible cross-breedings. But hey, Lavinia Whateley,
she must've done it with Yog-Sothoth (nudge nudge, wink wink)? And
what about these Innsmouth people forced to mate with the Deep Ones,
though they're quite a turn-off? And let's not forget Cthulhu's
intergalactic love-stories... oh sorry I had promised myself I'd never
say "Lumley" again!!!
3- My conclusion?
What I'm going to say about sex could be said about violence, wonder,
science, philosophy, or just anything you choose. It is this: it
should only be used with a purpose, and the best one is to contribute
to the story, to be part of it so that the story crumbles down if you
try to cut it off.
Comments welcome!
Mik Clarke
In <329c921c...@news.ind.mh.se>, c_t...@worldnet.fr (Christophe Thill) writes:
>On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:21:40 -0800, Mauro Reis <ma...@pluto.njcc.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Isn't that what probably
>>occurs at the orgies of cultists? It's a different vision of the Mythos,
>>and I think it's valid.
>>A very good example (in my opinion) of a story which is very sexual in
>>its content without beeing graphic is "The Likeness", by Dan Perez.
>
>As the combination of horror and sex seems to be important in Sherry
>Massey's tales, and as there are many things to say about this topic,
>I think it could be discussed. OK, I'll start...
>
>1- What may be the role of sex in a horror tale?
>
spider women and vampires and demons that operate this way.
Something wonderful turns into something horrific...
Mik
Mauro Reis
Christophe Thill wrote:
> [...] Unfortunately if you spoil too many words on basic descriptions,
> "and then he put his *** into her ***" and so on, you loose a great
> part of this terror and your effects fall flat. [...]
Again, I agree with that. Sex and horror is a combination that is
garanteed to catch the eye of most readers, but I think that when the sex
part is much more important than the horror, the story becomes simply a
sex story, altough a bit weird (or spicy, who can tell?). To my liking,
Sherry's tale would be much more effective if her descriptions were a
little less graphic; I fell that the horror mood is "lost" a little bit,
because that kind of description can turn your attention away from the
"most important things". But then, that's my personal opinion.
But anyway, I liked that story. I hope we'll see more contributions from
Sherry in this newsgroup.
Mauro Reis
ma...@pluto.njcc.com
Per Persson
In article <57k258$1q...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,
Mik Clarke <ra...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>d - It's a trap, used to ensnare and lure. I've read several stories of
>spider women and vampires and demons that operate this way.
>Something wonderful turns into something horrific...
Marriage?
Donovan Loucks
Sherry Massey <mass...@mail.infoave.net> wrote:
Sorry you feel that way.
I'm glad to see that you can take criticism so well, if my borrowing of
Bruce's quote can be said to be such. Of your two stories, I was far more
impressed with the second, "It's eyes have all the seeming....". It's
reasonably well written and has a dreamlike quality to it. It's still not
my cup of tea, but it shows that you do have some potential as a writer.
On the other hand, your first story, "Worshiping Shug-Niggurath (sic) or,
I know marriage involves scarifice (sic) but...." I found to be quite
offensive and pornographic. This seems to have been written for the sole
reason of making a scene in which a woman is raped by a monster. I'm not
much into monsters _or_ rape, so you can imagine my disgust at it (perhaps
that was the desired effect). I do, however, appreciate your warning
about "sex with monsters" at the beginning of your message--I should've
taken the hint and steered clear of it.
I will agree with Bruce Turlish <btur...@nyx.cs.du.edu> that it is
probably "quite suitable for a newsgroup like alt.sex.cthulhu". However,
I'm not a subscriber to that newsgroup. Regardless of the pro or con
arguments on this matter, and no matter how good or bad such stories are,
I still believe that they should be posted to alt.horror.creative, with
pointers to them posted here.
Peter Miller
>On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:21:40 -0800, Mauro Reis <ma...@pluto.njcc.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Isn't that what probably
>>occurs at the orgies of cultists? It's a different vision of the Mythos,
>>and I think it's valid.
>>A very good example (in my opinion) of a story which is very sexual in
>>its content without beeing graphic is "The Likeness", by Dan Perez.
[snip]
>Comments welcome!
>
>Christophe Thill - Paris, France
>c_t...@worldnet.fr
>ArKa/D/ia! Homepage: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/
>HP Lovecraft page: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/hpl/
A lot of you probably feel, as I do, that there is something
degenerate, even immoral, about the inclusion of explicit sex in a
tale set in HPL's universe. If asked why this is, we would probably
reply that "Lovecraft would not have liked it" or "It doesn't fit into
HPL's vision", which seem quite reasonable, but on closer examination
there appears an inconsistency: those of us who feel this way tend to
feel more strongly about _this_ abuse of the Mythos than we do about,
say, Lumley & Derleth's excesses, altough these are actually _less_
consistent with Lovecraft's vision than Sherry's yelpings.
This can be explained with Pirsig's Metaphysic of Quality, which I
won't bore you by going into now, although I think it's a great idea
and well worth a look. The explanation for this feeling of wrongness
is simple: Under the Metaphysic, immorality is defined, loosely, as
allowing or causing a less highly evolved pattern of values to use a
more highly evolved pattern of values for it's own purposes. That is
exactly what is happening here: Lovecraft's vision, a social (the
stories are intended for entertainment) and intellectual (Lovecraft's
own unique vision of the universe, philosophy etc.) pattern is being
subordinated in favour of pure biological tittilation - a less evolved
branch of literature. This also explains what makes 'Gross Out' horror
less worthy than the kind of horror that makes you look over your
shoulder to see if there's anything there...
The 'off-camera' sex in HPL's own work is perfectly acceptable and
actually adds to the story because it is subordinate to the
social/intellectual patterns of the horror story itself. Which is, of
course, the way it should be.
So that's the problem; the best solution would be, in my opinion, for
Sherry to bugger off to alt.sex.cthulhu and stay there, where she
could take an active and respected role in the running of the group
(as well as being out of our hair.)
Peter
Steve Anderson
>Christophe Thill wrote:
>> [...] Unfortunately if you spoil too many words on basic descriptions,
>> "and then he put his *** into her ***" and so on, you loose a great
>> part of this terror and your effects fall flat. [...]
I find that the difference between modern horror (especially of the
splatterpunk style) and Lovecraftian stories is the difference between
hard-core porno and erotica. One explicitly describes events while
the other suggests them. The suggestive stories require more skill I
believe, evoking whatever most frightens or arouses the reader in
his/her imagination, while the explicit stories may fall flat because
the acts/images specified may not scare/entice the specific reader.
So, IMHO, for a consistent style, Lovecraftian stories should have
their sexual element suggested just as the horrific element is.
Hardcore sex would be appropriate in a splatterpunk story (which might
happen to contain Mythos names and references).
Big Bad Wolf
>So that's the problem; the best solution would be, in my opinion, for
>Sherry to bugger off to alt.sex.cthulhu and stay there, where she
>could take an active and respected role in the running of the group
>(as well as being out of our hair.)
Well, I see a different solution. Sherry's stories may have evolved
to the point where it is palatable to the readers here and I would love
to see them posted here if that is the case. Or, if she is not willing
to face down the flamage, then at least a pointer would be nice.
Or .. she could tailor a story to fit the tastes of this group, taking
in mind the various suggestions, when posting here. I don't know about that
one though, when you have to cut back on your creativity to follow the
tastes of a few ..
Christophe Thill
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:43:15 GMT, k...@netcom.com (Big Bad Wolf) wrote:
>In article <32a86e1...@news.demon.co.uk> Dark...@pnakotus.demon.co.uk (Peter Miller) writes:
>
>>So that's the problem; the best solution would be, in my opinion, for
>>Sherry to bugger off to alt.sex.cthulhu and stay there, where she
>>could take an active and respected role in the running of the group
>>(as well as being out of our hair.)
>
>Well, I see a different solution. Sherry's stories may have evolved
>to the point where it is palatable to the readers here and I would love
>to see them posted here if that is the case. Or, if she is not willing
>to face down the flamage, then at least a pointer would be nice.
>Or .. she could tailor a story to fit the tastes of this group, taking
>in mind the various suggestions, when posting here. I don't know about that
>one though, when you have to cut back on your creativity to follow the
>tastes of a few ..
Well, not to defend Sherry (I don't know her personnally... no, I
wasn't playing any part in the tale...) but may I remind that she also
posted another short story that wasn't flamed? Perhaps people here
didn't read it, or perhaps they just happened to like it...