TSOU -- The Rats in the Walls
David Librik
>At about the same time that Exham Priory was first mentioned in an English
>chroni cle, another (real world) chronicle noted that the Norse invaders had
>sacked and burned all monasteries north of London. Also, Lovecraft states
>thatthe Priory wa s "never destroyed by the Danes." This would seem to
>indicate that the priory wa s located in the south.
Lovecraft explicitly states in Letter #861 that "The Rats in the Walls"
was set in the South. (It's in the middle of his story of how Robert E.
Howard immediately spotted the fact that HPL didn't know anything about the
Celtic history of Britain.)
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
Donovan Loucks
Lovecraft explicitly states in Letter #861 that "The Rats in the Walls"
was set in the South. (It's in the middle of his story of how Robert
E. Howard immediately spotted the fact that HPL didn't know anything
about the Celtic history of Britain.)
For those who aren't fortunate enough to have the _Selected Letters_ (or,
at least, the fifth volume), "Letter #861" was written to E. Hoffman Price
and is dated July 5, 1936. Here's the pertinent section:
Much as I admired him, I had no correspondence with him till 1930--for
I was never a guy to butt in on people. In that year he read the
reprint of my _Rats in the Walls_ and instantly spotted the bit of
harmless fakery whereby I had lifted a Celtic phrase (for use as an
atavistic exclamation) from a footnote to an old classic--_The Sin
Eater_, by Fiona Mcleod (William Sharp). He didn't realise the source
of the phrase, but his sharp eye for Celtic antiquities told him it
didn't quite fit--being a _Gaelic_ (not _Cymric_) expression assigned
to a South British locale. I myself don't know a word of any Celtic
tongue, and never fancied anybody could spot the incongruity. Too
charitable to suspect me of ignorant appropriation, he came to the
conclusion that I followed a now-discredited theory whereby the Gaels
were supposed to have preceded the Cymri in England--and wrote Satrap
Pharnabazus a long and scholarly letter on the subject. Farny passed
this on to me--and I couldn't rest easy until I had set the author
right. Hence I dropped REH a line confessing my ignorance and telling
him that I had merely picked a phrase with the right meaning from a
note to a Scottish story while perfectly aware that the language of
Celtic South-Britain was really somewhat different.
Even though Robert E. Howard noticed this Gaelic sentence in 1930, Frank
Belknap Long questioned Lovecraft about it back in 1923. Lovecraft also
mentions the locale of "The Rats in the Walls" as being in the south of
Britain, in this letter to Long (November 8, 1923):
That bit of gibberish which immediately followed the atavistic Latin
was _not_ pithecanthropoid. The first actual ape-cry was the _"ungl"_.
What the intermediate jargon is, is _perfectly good Celtic_--a bit of
venomously vituperative phraseology which a certain boy ought to know;
because his grandpa, instead of consulting a professor to get a Celtic
phrase, found a ready-made one so apt that he lifted it bodily from
_The Sin-Eater_, by Fiona McLeod, in the volume of _Best Psychic
Stories_ which Sonny himself generously sent! I thought you'd note
that at once--but youth hath a crowded memory. Anyhow, the only
objection to the phrase is that it's _Gaelic_ instead of _Cymric_ as
the south-of-England locale demands. But as--with anthropology--
details don't count. Nobody will ever stop to note the difference.
Lovecraft recounts the story of how he first started corresponding to
Howard as a direct result of that sentence, in this letter to Catherine L.
Moore (July 2, 1935):
_The Rats in the Walls_ was suggested by a very commonplace incident--
the cracking of wall-paper late at nights, and the chain of imaginings
resulting from it. As for the _languages_ represented in the atavistic
passage--I don't recall including _Sanscrit_, though I did lift a
sentence of _Celtic_ (of which I know not a single word) from another
story, _The Sin-Eater_, by "Fiona Mcleod" (William Sharp). This
sentence, incidentally, was what brought me into correspondence with
Robert E. Howard. It was--since I swiped it from a Scottish story--a
_Gaelic_ specimen, whereas of course the Celtic language of southern
Britain was _Cymric_. R. E. H.--as an expert Celtic antiquarian--
noticed the discrepancy, and thought I had adopted a minority theory
that a Gaelic wave had preceded the coming of the Cymri to Britannia.
He wrote Wright on the subject and Wright forwarded the letter to me--
whereupon I felt obliged to drop a line to the mighty Conan exposing my
own ignorance and confessing to my rather inept borrowing.
Hard to believe this sentence not only stirred up so much discussion in
Lovecraft's time but still does so today!
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Donovan K. Loucks Phoenix, Arizona dlo...@primenet.com |
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David Librik
>David Librik <lib...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Lovecraft explicitly states in Letter #861 that "The Rats in the Walls"
> was set in the South. (It's in the middle of his story of how Robert
> E. Howard immediately spotted the fact that HPL didn't know anything
> about the Celtic history of Britain.)
>Lovecraft recounts the story of how he first started corresponding to
>Howard as a direct result of that sentence, in this letter to Catherine L.
>Moore (July 2, 1935):
> _The Rats in the Walls_ was suggested by a very commonplace incident--
> the cracking of wall-paper late at nights, and the chain of imaginings
> resulting from it. As for the _languages_ represented in the atavistic
> passage--I don't recall including _Sanscrit_, though I did lift a
> sentence of _Celtic_ (of which I know not a single word) from another
> story, _The Sin-Eater_, by "Fiona Mcleod" (William Sharp). This
> sentence, incidentally, was what brought me into correspondence with
> Robert E. Howard. It was--since I swiped it from a Scottish story--a
> _Gaelic_ specimen, whereas of course the Celtic language of southern
> Britain was _Cymric_. R. E. H.--as an expert Celtic antiquarian--
> noticed the discrepancy, and thought I had adopted a minority theory
> that a Gaelic wave had preceded the coming of the Cymri to Britannia.
> He wrote Wright on the subject and Wright forwarded the letter to me--
> whereupon I felt obliged to drop a line to the mighty Conan exposing my
> own ignorance and confessing to my rather inept borrowing.
>Hard to believe this sentence not only stirred up so much discussion in
>Lovecraft's time but still does so today!
Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful
death upon you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those
with you!
Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this
is a bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
StoOdin101
>translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
>well give it here.
How would Lovecraft have known what it was, if he didnt at least have a
translation standing by at the time he discovered it? I'm glad to finally
see the ENglish rendering, though. It seems strange that none of
Lovecraft's biographers have ever told what it meant, especially when they
quote all the letters referring to it...
At least its better than
"May storms and winds and typhoons beat them / may great Cthulhu rise and
eat them" from the Illuminatus books!
>Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this
>is a bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
Like waving a red flag in front of a bull... I'm guessing that "God" is
represented by "Dia" which is derived from Latin "Deo". GUESSING, I say,
thou stinkard! I'll learn ye how to gust! Ungl...ungl...ch...ch...
>:-P```` <-----I think this should be the international Cthulhu Mythos
symbol.
Donovan Loucks
Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful death upon
you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those with you!
Thanks for the translation, David! What's your source, or do you simply
know Gaelic?
Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this is a
bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
I'm not particularly knowledgeable of the pre-Roman era, but I'm guessing
that they wouldn't have made reference to a monotheistic God. Do I win?
DONALD G. DAVIS
>Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
>translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
>well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
>have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
> DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
> DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
> May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful
> death upon you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those
> with you!
>Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this
>is a bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
Perhaps because "God" is monotheistic? The quotation must
therefore belong to the Christian era...
--Donald Davis
Marcus Ogden
>
>>Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
>>translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
>>well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
>>have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
>
>> DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
>> DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
>
>> May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful
>> death upon you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those
>> with you!
>
>>Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this
>>is a bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
The word "dia" for "God" sounds like an adaptation of the Latin "deo",
and if so it dates from after the Roman conquests.
Marcus Ogden <mw...@cam.ac.uk>
[Full Name unknown]
In article <4lc1ce$3...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Donovan Loucks <dlo...@primenet.com> writes:
>From: Donovan Loucks <dlo...@primenet.com>
>Subject: Re: TSOU -- The Rats in the Walls
>Date: 20 Apr 1996 18:01:01 -0700
>David Librik <lib...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
> translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
> well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
> have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
>
> DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
> DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
>
> May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful death upon
> you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those with you!
I don't know anything about Gaelic but in latin there are no articles so 'a
god' and 'the god' and 'god' are all the same. I was just wondering if
gaelic was the same way?
btw thanks for the trans :)
dar...@moonbase.wwc.edu
>
>Thanks for the translation, David! What's your source, or do you simply
>know Gaelic?
>
> Intelligent readers may be able to spot another reason why this is a
> bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
>
>I'm not particularly knowledgeable of the pre-Roman era, but I'm guessing
>that they wouldn't have made reference to a monotheistic God. Do I win?
>
[Full Name unknown]
In article <4lig6v$m...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> Marcus Ogden <mw...@cam.ac.uk> writes:
>From: Marcus Ogden <mw...@cam.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: TSOU -- The Rats in the Walls
>Date: 23 Apr 1996 11:50:55 GMT
>>lib...@netcom.com (David Librik) writes:
>>
>>>Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
>>>translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
>>>well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
>>>have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
>>
>>> DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
>>> DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
>>
>>> May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful
>>> death upon you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those
>>> with you!
>>
>>>is a bad choice for a supposedly pre-Roman sentence of "Celtic."
>
>and if so it dates from after the Roman conquests.
dia is the nominitive singular form for 'goddess' in latin
deus is the nominitive singular form for 'god' in latin
>
>
>Marcus Ogden <mw...@cam.ac.uk>
>
>
A Cool C. S. Company
lib...@netcom.com (David Librik) writes:
>Since there's so much discussion about it and nobody apparently ever
>translates it -- Lovecraft certainly couldn't -- I figured I might as
>well give it here. It's a _great_ curse, and whatever else he may not
>have known about Gaelic, he certainly knew how to steal well.
>
> DIA AD AGHAIDH 'S AD AODANN ... AGUS BAS DUNACH ORT!
> DHONAS 'S DHOLAS ORT, AGUS LEAT-SA!
>
> May God be against you and your face ... and a woeful
> death upon you! Evil and sorrow on you and all those
> with you!
"Woe betide her ill-fared(?) face: an ill death may she die" kind of.
Tam Lin *was* a grim ballad.
Kate
Tu neteru, sauti ba-a.