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TSOU - The Whisperer in Darkness

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vonj...@hotmail.com

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Jul 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/3/98
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The Shadow over Usenet
"The Whisperer in Darkness"

Sources: _The Dunwich Horror and Others_, Arkham; _The Best of H. P.
Lovecraft_, Ballantine.

Synopsis: Albert Wilmarth, a folklorist and English professor at
Miskatonic University, becomes involved in a debate over strange objects
seen in the Vermont flood-waters but of which no trace is uncovered.
Wilmarth takes the side of the skeptics, but learns differently from the
letters of a recluse, Henry Akeley. Akeley believes that the bodies are
those of a species of beings from Yuggoth, or Pluto, who have come to
mine our planet for unique metals.

As time goes on, Akeley tells more about his battles against these
creatures, and there are signs that someone is trying to interfere with
their correspondence. In the end, Akeley sends Wilmarth a letter telling
him of the wisdom of these beings, and the glories which meet those whose
brains are transported through the cosmos in their metallic cylinders.
Akeley goes to Vermont, meets Akeley, and hears of many of these wonders.
In the middle of the night, however, he hears strange voices below, and
upon creeping below encounters the horror...

Comments: One of Lovecraft's best stories, IMO. Background, legend,
plot, and atmosphere are all woven tightly to create a truly wonderful
piece. According to Joshi, the piece suffers due to the inept bungling
of the aliens - but I think this is more due to the poor quality of their
human help than any deficiencies on their part.

Lovecraft wrote this story in 1930, using data from a trip to Vermont
(there really were floods in Vermont in 1927, and many of the people and
places mentioned, including Akeley himself, were inspired by what he saw
there). This story was published in the August 1931 issue of Weird Tales.

This story does possess a level of ambiguity to it: can we really be
sure that the last letter to Wilmarth is false? Was Akeley really taken
away against his will? These ambiguities are explored in Richard Lupoff's
"Documents in the Case of Elizabeth Akeley" (reprinted in Chaosium's _The
Hastur Cycle_). In that piece, Lupoff proposes that Akeley returns to
earth to seek his granddaughter's aid in accomplishing one last earthly
task. The story is somewhat marred by an unlikely love story, but it is
a good re-interpretation of the story which nonetheless leaves the other
possiblity open.

"The Whisperer in Darkness" is most notable in Mythos terms for
introducing those lovable mi-go, or fungi from Yuggoth. Lovecraft also
brings in the creations of several other authors: Smith's Tsathoggua,
Long's Hounds of Tindalos, and Chambers' Hastur (who is merely a name,
and not treated as a deity).

That's all I have for now. The IRC session is the same time next
week as always - 9:00 pm EDT Wednesday nights.

Yrs.,


Daniel

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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StoOdin101

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Jul 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/3/98
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>According to Joshi, the piece suffers due to the inept bungling
>of the aliens - but I think this is more due to the poor quality of their
>human help than any deficiencies on their part.

Absolutely. I take issue with Joshi's comment that the aliens succeeded in
spelling Akeley's name wrong in forging his signature. Huh-uh, no way. That was
done by one of their rustic human minions. I have ALWAYS seen it that way, and
was surprised that Joshi, who's usually very perceptive, missed that point.


> "The Whisperer in Darkness" is most notable in Mythos terms for
>introducing those lovable mi-go, or fungi from Yuggoth.

I do find the line "They were the hellish tracks of the living fungi from
Yuggoth" to be a singularly inept miscalculation from HPL.
That line is as silly as the tag line from the cyborg cartoon SILVERHAWKS:
"Partly metal, partly real".
Of course they're living, Howard! Nothing scary about that; I see living fungi
every day, when the seasons are right for mushrooms. I think he meant
"ambulatory" or even "sentient".

>Lovecraft also
>brings in the creations of several other authors: Smith's Tsathoggua,
>Long's Hounds of Tindalos, and Chambers' Hastur (who is merely a name,
>and not treated as a deity).
>

I take credit for being the first one to notice that Hastur the Unspeakable
does not appear in Lovecraft. But I didn't get it into PRINT first, so I must
remain the unsung discoverer. The Great Almost, that's me.


"...there is, as they say, a special science against gunshots --- ballistics.
But against the RADIO scientific thought seems to be blind." --- Mikhail
Zoshchenko, _The Anti-Noise Campaign_


Christophe Thill

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Jul 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/3/98
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Comme l'écrivait stood...@aol.com (StoOdin101) :

>I take credit for being the first one to notice that Hastur the Unspeakable
>does not appear in Lovecraft. But I didn't get it into PRINT first, so I must
>remain the unsung discoverer. The Great Almost, that's me.

My personal opinion is that this "Whisperer in Darkness" is the exact
origin of "Hastur the Unspeakable". Lovecraft mentions, in one
sentence, Chambers' Hastur and another being called the Magnum
Innominandum (ie "The Great-not-to-be-named One"). Derleth mixed both
notions and, lo! Here's a brand new Great Old One!

But the Magnum Innominandum was actually first featured in the
summaries of the story that Lovecraft wanted to write after his "Roman
dream". It can be found in letters to Long and Dwyer. Well, as we
know, he changed his mind and "presented" the dream to Long who
included it in his "Horror from the Hills". But the Magnum
Innominandum didn't leave his mind. In later stories and letters, he
keeps mentioning it from time to time, and it is clear that he
identifies this deity with Yog-Sothoth. So let's forget many-tentacled
Hastur : long live Yog-Sothoth the Unspeakable !

By the way, this famous passage from "The Whisperer in Darkness" (the
grandaddy of all "namedropping" passages, as it were) mentions many
gods and beings, and places too (Bethmoora). The only difficulty in it
is "Bran". I tend to connect this name with Howard's Bran Mak Morn.
Anybody's got a better idea?


Christophe Thill - Paris, France (c_t...@worldnet.fr)

ArKa/D/ia! Homepage: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/
HP Lovecraft page: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/hpl/
"The King in Yellow": http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/chambers/
DAIKAIJU! Les monstres japonais: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/kaiju/

Dan Clore

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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Christophe Thill wrote:
> Comme l'écrivait stood...@aol.com (StoOdin101) :

> >I take credit for being the first one to notice that Hastur the Unspeakable
> >does not appear in Lovecraft. But I didn't get it into PRINT first, so I must
> >remain the unsung discoverer. The Great Almost, that's me.
>
> My personal opinion is that this "Whisperer in Darkness" is the exact
> origin of "Hastur the Unspeakable". Lovecraft mentions, in one
> sentence, Chambers' Hastur and another being called the Magnum
> Innominandum (ie "The Great-not-to-be-named One"). Derleth mixed both
> notions and, lo! Here's a brand new Great Old One!
>
> But the Magnum Innominandum was actually first featured in the
> summaries of the story that Lovecraft wanted to write after his "Roman
> dream". It can be found in letters to Long and Dwyer. Well, as we
> know, he changed his mind and "presented" the dream to Long who
> included it in his "Horror from the Hills". But the Magnum
> Innominandum didn't leave his mind. In later stories and letters, he
> keeps mentioning it from time to time, and it is clear that he
> identifies this deity with Yog-Sothoth. So let's forget many-tentacled
> Hastur : long live Yog-Sothoth the Unspeakable !

Dammit Christophe, you think you can just say that and we'll all believe
it? I want proof!

Ah, here it is in _The Mound_: "a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the
All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." Since we all know that
Shubby is married to Yoggy (some facts are *beyond dispute*), that
clinches it.

--
---------------------------------------------------
Dan Clore

The Website of Lord We˙rdgliffe:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/index.html
Welcome to the Waughters....

The Dan Clore Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm
Because the true mysteries cannot be profaned....

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"

StoOdin101

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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>My personal opinion is that this "Whisperer in Darkness" is the exact
>origin of "Hastur the Unspeakable". Lovecraft mentions, in one
>sentence, Chambers' Hastur and another being called the Magnum
>Innominandum (ie "The Great-not-to-be-named One"). Derleth mixed both
>notions and, lo! Here's a brand new Great Old One!

I agree...and I also think that Derleth was UNAWARE of the nature of the name
Hastur at the time, and so seized onto it and expanded it.
By the same token, I first encountered the name "Cthulhu" in the NECRONOMICON
excerpt in DUNWICH HORROR; possessed by the mystery of the name and the being,
I drew an entity with the name that had NO relation to the "real" appearance of
Cthulhu...but I didn't know there even WAS a real appearance of Cthulhu at the
time.
As for the Magnum Innominandum, I'm not sure that being is Yog-Sothoth. Aren't
there lists where HPL mentions the Great Not-to-be-Named and Y-S in the same
sentence?

>The only difficulty in it
>is "Bran". I tend to connect this name with Howard's Bran Mak Morn.
>Anybody's got a better idea?
>

No better ideas here...I always figured it was Bran Mak Morn.

StoOdin101

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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>Ah, here it is in _The Mound_: "a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the
>All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." Since we all know that
>Shubby is married to Yoggy (some facts are *beyond dispute*), that
>clinches it.

Yep, that cinches it. Previous objections withdrawn.

Dan Clore

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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StoOdin101 wrote:
>
> >Ah, here it is in _The Mound_: "a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the
> >All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." Since we all know that
> >Shubby is married to Yoggy (some facts are *beyond dispute*), that
> >clinches it.
>
> Yep, that cinches it. Previous objections withdrawn.

Another thought: does this remind anyone of the Magna Mater (Great
Mother), what with "All-Mother" right next to "Magnum" and all?

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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StoOdin101 wrote:
> As for the Magnum Innominandum, I'm not sure that being is Yog-Sothoth. Aren't
> there lists where HPL mentions the Great Not-to-be-Named and Y-S in the same
> sentence?

My memory wants to tell me that you are correct; however, this same
memory will not tell me where to look in my collection. I'll have to
consult my Joshi indexes for this one. Once we figure out where this
sentence appears, let's note when it was written.

Consider the following, Lovecraft may have simply been playing with the
names without having bothered to flesh out the corresponding monsters.
Comparing when the name appeared to the time when the diety appeared
could add substance to my admittedly off the cuff theory.



> >The only difficulty in it
> >is "Bran". I tend to connect this name with Howard's Bran Mak Morn.
> >Anybody's got a better idea?
> >

I've read that before and it makes sense. A tip of the hat to Howard.
Unfortunately, all I know about Bran is the name. Is there nothing at
all suggestive of the Mythos in the character?

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

StoOdin101

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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>Another thought: does this remind anyone of the Magna Mater (Great
>Mother), what with "All-Mother" right next to "Magnum" and all?
>

HPL referred to the Magna Mater in at least 2 stories, RED HOOK, and
RATS/WALLS, so it isn't inconceivable that he meant it that way here.

Mike Kew

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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In message <199807040400...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, StoOdin101
<stood...@aol.com> wrote

>>Ah, here it is in _The Mound_: "a shrine of Shub-Niggurath, the
>>All-Mother and wife of the Not-to-Be-Named One." Since we all know that
>>Shubby is married to Yoggy (some facts are *beyond dispute*), that
>>clinches it.
>
>Yep, that cinches it. Previous objections withdrawn.

But only since Cthulhu revealed the truth of Nyarlathotep's parentage to
Azathoth, and the subsequent divorce left Yoggy free to marry again...

And did we ever find out who *did* put that bloody trapezohedron under
Hastur's pillow?

--
Mike Kew

jpe...@cnw.com

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In article <359DDC...@fantasm.org>,
"D. E. Kesler" <er...@fantasm.org> wrote:
>
>snip>

>
> > >The only difficulty in it
> > >is "Bran". I tend to connect this name with Howard's Bran Mak Morn.
> > >Anybody's got a better idea?
> > >
>
> I've read that before and it makes sense. A tip of the hat to Howard.
> Unfortunately, all I know about Bran is the name. Is there nothing at
> all suggestive of the Mythos in the character?

I've always thought the reference to "Bran" strangely out of place. Even as a
nod to the work of Robert E. Howard; as the character of Bran Mak Morn has
not even the most tenuous of connections to the mythos. I've been able to
find no other references to a "Bran" in any other works that would indicate
another connection. Now a mention of "Kull" would have been a bit better as
there are at least hints of a connection between the Valusian serpent-men
and the Great Old Ones.

John Pelan

Ckott Nikolai

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Jul 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/4/98
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Whether HPL got "Bran" on his own or from Howard is hard for me to say,
but both probably got the name from Welsh myth, wherein Bran appears as
a nameless god who cannot be defeated unless his secret name be
revealed. Robert Graves explores the meaning of this incident at length
in The White Goddess.

Also, in the Irish story cycle of Finn MacCumhail and the Fenians, Bran
was Finn's super powerful dog. This cycle was probably the source of the
name Conan, as Conan MacArt was one of the Fenians, though rather
different from Howard's Conan. The Fenian Conan was a kind of
Trickster, more like the Native American Coyote. He was fat, bald, and
given to excessive profanity.

Ckott Nikolai

Dan Clore

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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Robert E. Howard has a story called "The Children of the Night", which
tells us that "Von Junzt makes mention of a so-called Bran cult" etc etc
etc.

I expect this is the story HPL had in mind.

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
>
> I'm afraid I must take Joshi's side as to the competence of these
> fungoid aliens. They are represented as being able to conquer the earth
> if they choose to bother, yet can be killed by ordinary dogs (also the
> fate of half-alien Wilbur in "The Dunwich Horror," which seems to me
> equally improbable).
>
> --Donald Davis

Deja vu. I am almost posotive that this discussion has occured before.
I think it's my turn to wonder how in the world the dogs in whispers
could have injured anyone or anything while wearing gas masks.

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

Donovan K. Loucks

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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Daniel Harms <vonj...@hotmail.com> wrote,

The Shadow over Usenet
"The Whisperer in Darkness"

...

Comments: One of Lovecraft's best stories, IMO. Background, legend,
plot, and atmosphere are all woven tightly to create a truly wonderful
piece.

I agree entirely. "The Whisperer in Darkness" is one of my favorite
Lovecraft stories -- perhaps my second after "The Colour Out of Space".
The geographic elements in this are very vibrant, and I am even more drawn
to this tale now that I've visited the Brattleboro region on two
occasions. There are also a large number of real-world references and
blendings of fact and fiction here that I'll go into in great detail.

According to Joshi, the piece suffers due to the inept bungling of the
aliens - but I think this is more due to the poor quality of their
human help than any deficiencies on their part.

I have to agree with S.T. on this. How could Akeley, alone in the woods,
fend off the Outer Ones and their human cohorts for over _four months_?
As for the bungling of Akeley's name on the forged telegram, I get the
impression that the Outer Ones are able to disguise themselves to some
degree and that they were to blame for this mistake. For example, the
"curious-voiced" Stanley Adams at the train station in Keene and the
"sandy-haired man" who sent the forged telegram from Bellows Falls are
probably Outer Ones impersonating human beings. They're both described as
having "queerly" or "curiously thick, droning" voices. In spite of
Lovecraft's completely alien descriptions of the Outer Ones, to this day I
still maintain that they are roughly anthropomorphic in their overall
structure and can _just barely_ pass as humans with the proper disguise.

Lovecraft wrote this story in 1930, using data from a trip to Vermont
(there really were floods in Vermont in 1927, and many of the people
and places mentioned, including Akeley himself, were inspired by what
he saw there). This story was published in the August 1931 issue of
Weird Tales.

Lovecraft visited Vermont briefly in August 1927 with W. Paul Cook, which
inspired his "Vermont -- A First Impression". He returned to the same
area in June 1928, this time staying for two weeks with Vrest Orton (and
Orton's wife, son, parents, and grandmother!) at a farm that Orton had
leased. This was very likely the basis for the Akeley farmhouse, and is
now owned by Ann Dixon (who reminds my wife and me of Martha Stewart) and
her husband. The house is on Lee Road (as in "Lee's Swamp") in Guilford,
and is 5 miles west-southwest of Brattleboro -- Townshend, the fictional
location of the farmhouse, is 15 miles north-northwest of Brattleboro.
The house was inhabited during the mid-1800s by a purported witch named
Mila Akeley, whose father or grandfather built the house. You can see a
photograph of this house at:

http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/sites/vtnh.htm

Lovecraft describes the Akeley house as "a trim white house of two stories
and attic...with a well-kept lawn and stone-bordered path leading up to a
tastefully carved Georgian doorway" and as "a white, two-and-a-half-story
house of unusual size and elegance for the region..." However, Lovecraft
describes Orton's farmhouse as "a real story-&-a-half Colonial farmhouse".
The difference of an entire floor makes it sound as if the Dixon house is
not the basis of the Akeley farmhouse, despite its attractive doorway, so
I wonder if Lovecraft is referring to a different house.

One possibility is the house of "the eccentric artist and recluse", Bert
G. Akley (who is a painter and a _photographer_), to whom Charley Lee
introduced Lovecraft. Notice the different spelling of Akley's name,
although it's not "Akely". This Akley also lived in an "ancient
farmhouse" and that may instead have been the house that Lovecraft
describes. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I don't know where that house is.
Perhaps it's on nearby Akley Road, which runs roughly parallel to and
north of Lee Road, which would make sense since Lovecraft mentions that he
and Charley "walked 'cross-lots" to get there.

Running perpendicular to Akley Road is Goodenough Road, on which amateur
poet Arthur Goodenough lived. This road and its resident must have been
the inspiration for Akeley's son, George Goodenough Akeley. Lovecraft,
with Orton, attended a meeting of "Literary Persons" at Goodenough's farm,
which also included Walter J. Coates (publisher of _Driftwind_), W. Paul
Cook (publisher of _The Acolyte_), Paul P. Jones (writer of the
_Brattleboro Daily Reformer's_ "The Rustic" column), and a Miss Miller (a
"poetess-teacher" or "schoolmarm-poetess" -- take your pick). References
to some of these folks are made in the fourth paragraph of the story:

The tales thus brought to my notice came mostly through newspaper
cuttings; though one yarn had an oral source and was repeated to a
friend of mine in a letter from his mother in Hardwick, Vermont. The
type of thing described was essentially the same in all cases, though
there seemed to be three separate instances involved -- one connected
with the Winooski River near Montpelier, another attached to the West
River in Windham County beyond Newfane, and a third centering in the
Passumpsic in Caledonia County above Lyndonville. ("The Whisperer in
Darkness", p. 209)

Vrest Orton, although living in New York at the time, was a native of
Hardwick; Walter J. Coates was from Montpelier; and Paul P. Jones was from
Windham, which is 6 miles north of Townshend. The meeting of these people
was chronicled in the 18 June 1928 issue of the _Brattleboro Reformer_ in
which Lovecraft is referred to as "Howard _J._ Lovecraft".

In addition to the above article, I have a photocopy of the front page of
the 4 November 1927 issue of the _Reformer_, which appeared the day after
"the historic and unprecedented Vermont floods of November 3, 1927". It
bears an enormous page-spanning headline about the flood which looks
something like this:

NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND SWEPT BY FLOODS THAT
DO DAMAGE RUNNING INTO MILLIONS; CONNECTICUT
REACHES RECORD POINT AT BIG DAM IN VERNON

Unfortunately, there's no mention of pinkish-things in the floodwaters...
Akeley mentions "Pendrifter", the pen-name of Charles Crane, who wrote the
"Pen-Drift" column that appeared regularly in the _Brattleboro Reformer_,
and whom Lovecraft met on at least one occasion.

The trip up the West River towards Newfane and Brattleboro is hauntingly
lovely, as Lovecraft records. The "quaint, sightly village of Newfane"
is, perhaps, the most photographed spot in the state of Vermont. The
mountain on which Akeley's farmhouse sits, "Dark Mountain", may be based
on Bald Mountain, a steep mountain just southwest of Townshend. "Round
Hill" may be based on Round Mountain, which is between Orton's farmhouse
and the town of West Brattleboro. Another mountain in the area that is
mentioned in the tale is Wantastiquet Mountain, which towers over the town
of Brattleboro from across the Connecticut River, and which Lovecraft went
to the trouble of scaling. It's really a beautiful area, and it has a
wonderful aspect of remoteness, in spite of its accessibility.

Lovecraft makes references to a "branch line", "lagging branch railway",
and "half-abandoned railway track" which leads from Brattleboro to
Townshend, but I've yet to find evidence that such a line ever existed.
The train station that Wilmarth arrives at still exists, although the
"long train-shed" is now gone and the station building is now The
Brattleboro Museum and Art Center. Interestingly and ironically enough,
it doesn't appear that Lovecraft ever made the trip up the West River to
Newfane and Townshend, being thwarted by a bus schedule that didn't allow
a return to Brattleboro on the same day.

This story does possess a level of ambiguity to it: can we really be
sure that the last letter to Wilmarth is false? Was Akeley really
taken away against his will? These ambiguities are explored in Richard
Lupoff's "Documents in the Case of Elizabeth Akeley" (reprinted in
Chaosium's _The Hastur Cycle_). In that piece, Lupoff proposes that
Akeley returns to earth to seek his granddaughter's aid in
accomplishing one last earthly task. The story is somewhat marred by
an unlikely love story, but it is a good re-interpretation of the story
which nonetheless leaves the other possiblity open.

I also once believed that the conclusion of this tale was ambiguous, but
Lovecraft makes it rather clear that Akeley was "taken away against his
will". His impersonator admonishes Wilmarth not to "bother that fresh,
shiny cylinder joined to the two testing instruments -- the one with my
name on it." The conversation overheard later makes it clear that these
"two testing instruments" are actually Akeley's eyes and ears ("seeing and
hearing . . . damn you"), which are hooked up and operating so that he can
be tormented by seeing and hearing Wilmarth's conversations with the
impersonator.

The identity of Akeley's impersonator adds more credence to the notion
that he was taken unwillingly. The "huge foot-bandages" (designed to
cover crab-like feet), the "queer odour" (the oft-mentioned scent of the
Outer Ones), and the "damnably clever constructions" (giving the physical
appearance of Akeley) all point to an Outer One masquerading as Akeley.
As for the nature of those "damnably clever constructions", it seems clear
that they are not "waxen products of a master artist" (since Wilmarth
hopes that they are!), but Akeley's _actual hands and face_. In a 7
November 1930 letter to Clark Ashton Smith, Lovecraft comments on Smith's
notion of plastic surgery to alter an alien's facial form so it can blend
with humans, and mentions his own idea of "a human skin as in the
Whisperer."

I disagree with S.T. that Akeley's impersonator may be "Nyarlathotep
himself, whom they worship". I'm assuming that S.T. bases this notion on
the phonograph recording in which one of the Outer Ones says,

To Nyarlathotep, Mighty Messenger, must all things be told. And He
shall put on the semblance of men, the waxen mask and the robe that
hides...

I'll freely admit that the above quote, coupled with the ending, makes a
strong implication that Nyarlathotep was the impersonator of Akeley.
However, I think the other points mentioned above -- the foot-bandages,
the scent, and the hands and face -- make it clear that Lovecraft intended
the impersonator to be an Outer One.

"The Whisperer in Darkness" is most notable in Mythos terms for

introducing those lovable mi-go, or fungi from Yuggoth. Lovecraft also


brings in the creations of several other authors: Smith's Tsathoggua,
Long's Hounds of Tindalos, and Chambers' Hastur (who is merely a name,
and not treated as a deity).

I've never been comfortable with the term "Mi-Go", even though Lovecraft
uses it in both "The Whisperer in Darkness" and _At the Mountains of
Madness_. Instead, I prefer the term Outer Ones, which is used twice as
many times as Mi-Go, even though only in "The Whisperer in Darkness". The
term "Mi-Go" _may_ actually be a real Nepalese term, and to call
Lovecraft's creations by this name would be akin to simply calling them
"Abominable Snow-Men". While it's true that there is an implied
equivalence between these two entities, I'd prefer to use Lovecraft's
coined name, Outer Ones, than "Mi-Go".

Speaking of monsters, this story also contains one of Lovecraft's rare
laundry lists, which later became a staple of Derleth's tales -- his worst
example is probably the entire text of _The Lurker at the Threshold_!
Against my better judgment, I'll repeat Lovecraft's list here:

I found myself faced by names and terms that I had heard elsewhere in
the most hideous of connexions -- Yuggoth, Great Cthulhu, Tsathoggua,
Yog-Sothoth, R'lyeh, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Hastur, Yian, Leng, the
Lake of Hali, Bethmoora, the Yellow Sign, L'mur-Kathulos, Bran, and the
Magnum Innominandum -- and was drawn back through nameless aeons and
inconceivable dimensions to worlds of elder, outer entity at which the
crazed author of the _Necronomicon_ had only guessed in the vaguest
way. ("The Whisperer in Darkness", p. 223)

Honestly, that wasn't all that bad, at least when compared to Derleth.
While I agree with Christophe Thill <c_t...@worldnet.fr> that the above
list is probably the origin of Derleth's "Hastur the Unspeakable", I'm not
sure if I can agree with his conjecture that Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum
Innominandum are one and the same, in spite of the evidence that Dan Clore
<cl...@columbia-center.org> presents from "The Mound". After all, both
Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum are mentioned in the above
sentence, and at opposite ends. In addition, in a May 1935 letter to
Robert H. Barlow, Lovecraft mentions,

All things rest with the Ultimate Entities . . . with Yog-Sothoth; with
Azathoth; with the Magnum Innominandum.

Once again, Lovecraft mentions both in the same sentence without any
attempt to connect them. It doesn't seem to me that Lovecraft meant for
Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum to be the same entity.

That's all I have for now. The IRC session is the same time next week
as always - 9:00 pm EDT Wednesday nights.

I expect to see _everyone_ from alt.horror.cthulhu there...

-------------------
Donovan K. Loucks <webm...@hplovecraft.com>
The H.P. Lovecraft Archive: http://www.hplovecraft.com
The alt.horror.cthulhu FAQ: ftp://ftp.primenet.com/users/d/dloucks/ahc

Jordi Espunya

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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Greetings, mere mortals 8)

dgd...@nyx10.nyx.net (DONALD G. DAVIS) wrote:

> I'm afraid I must take Joshi's side as to the competence of these
>fungoid aliens. They are represented as being able to conquer the earth
>if they choose to bother, yet can be killed by ordinary dogs (also the

Propaganda. I don't remember exactly who says that the Mi-Go would
easily conquer the Earth, but they prefer to hide from mankind. But I
can bet he who says that is one of their human pals.

You can think they just want to scare us, or you can think Earth is so
little value they only have a little mine facility in Oregon, maybe
somewhere else, and that's it.

>blame on to their "human minions." If the fungi are so accomplished, why
>can't they select better human agents?

Locals are full of shit, that's why 8)

In modern settings, they would have hired 'cancerman'.

TSOU is one of my fab tales, but the only thing that I just can't
believe is the recording of the conversition between the two entities
Akeley does in the mountains... I just think of the old man carrying a
gramophone [sp??] to the mountains...

---
/The fate that came to Useneth: Jordi Espunya >> j_es...@redestb.es \
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. No, it's not ROT13!
\Use our special Hounds-of-Tindalos beta software to deal with spammers/

StoOdin101

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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>I'm not
>sure if I can agree with his conjecture that Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum
>Innominandum are one and the same, in spite of the evidence that Dan Clore
><cl...@columbia-center.org> presents from "The Mound". After all, both
>Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum are mentioned in the above
>sentence, and at opposite ends. In addition, in a May 1935 letter to
>Robert H. Barlow, Lovecraft mentions,
>
> All things rest with the Ultimate Entities . . . with Yog-Sothoth; with
> Azathoth; with the Magnum Innominandum.
>
>Once again, Lovecraft mentions both in the same sentence without any
>attempt to connect them. It doesn't seem to me that Lovecraft meant for
>Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum to be the same entity.

More evidence that Lovecraft didn't keep track of the goings-on of his
entities, and didn't intend for there to ever be a clear concise Cthulhu
Mythos. Since Clore's info from THE MOUND means that either HPL forgot that the
Magnum Innominandum was hitched to Shubby, making it Yog-Sothoth, or that
Shubby is sleeping around on Y-S, which will probably result in some very
unpleasant cosmic headlines eventually.
All jests aside, I think the Magnum Innominandum is a horror that HPL had in
mind to use, but just never did. It may have been as indescribable as it is
unnameable...and despite HPL's talk of indescribable monsters, I think we all
know that he liked nothng better than to describe 'em in detail. (This powder
of Ibn-Ghazi will make it visible for a moment! ) So until he thought of a
suitably horrific appearance for the fiend, he didn't write any stories around
it.

Dan Clore

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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StoOdin101 wrote:
>
> >I'm not
> >sure if I can agree with his conjecture that Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum
> >Innominandum are one and the same, in spite of the evidence that Dan Clore
> ><cl...@columbia-center.org> presents from "The Mound". After all, both
> >Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum are mentioned in the above
> >sentence, and at opposite ends. In addition, in a May 1935 letter to
> >Robert H. Barlow, Lovecraft mentions,
> >
> > All things rest with the Ultimate Entities . . . with Yog-Sothoth; with
> > Azathoth; with the Magnum Innominandum.
> >
> >Once again, Lovecraft mentions both in the same sentence without any
> >attempt to connect them. It doesn't seem to me that Lovecraft meant for
> >Yog-Sothoth and the Magnum Innominandum to be the same entity.
>
> More evidence that Lovecraft didn't keep track of the goings-on of his
> entities, and didn't intend for there to ever be a clear concise Cthulhu
> Mythos. Since Clore's info from THE MOUND means that either HPL forgot that the
> Magnum Innominandum was hitched to Shubby, making it Yog-Sothoth, or that
> Shubby is sleeping around on Y-S, which will probably result in some very
> unpleasant cosmic headlines eventually.

Either that, or the "Magnum Innominandum" is not the same as "the
Not-to-be-Named One".

We should also recall, I guess, the incantation from "The Shambler from
the Stars", which supposedly comes from De Vermis Mysteriis: "Tibi,
Magnum Innominandum, signa stellarum nigrarum et bufaniformis Sadoquae
sigillum ..." ("To thee / great Not-to-be-Named / the signs / of the
stars / black / and / of the toad-shaped / Tsathoggua / the seal ...")

Possibly we should consider this like the term "Old Ones" -- exactly how
many different groups did HPL apply that to in different tales? Or
should we just conclude that Yog-Sothoth is the Not-to-be-Named, but not
the *Great* Not-to-be-Named?

--
---------------------------------------------------
Dan Clore

The Website of Lord We˙rdgliffe:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/index.html
Welcome to the Waughters....

The Dan Clore Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm
Because the true mysteries cannot be profaned....

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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StoOdin101 wrote:
>
> More evidence that Lovecraft didn't keep track of the goings-on of his
> entities, and didn't intend for there to ever be a clear concise Cthulhu
> Mythos. Since Clore's info from THE MOUND means that either HPL forgot that the
> Magnum Innominandum was hitched to Shubby, making it Yog-Sothoth, or that
> Shubby is sleeping around on Y-S, which will probably result in some very
> unpleasant cosmic headlines eventually.

I realize you are only joking; however, this comment did remind me of
something. In ancient Myths, it was a common practice to have a newly
introduced diety assimilated into the on going mythology by having the
new diety couple with an established god. The Greek god Zues with his
numerous trysts is probably the most pronounced example of this type.

Also, I've never really thought of Shub-Niggurath as exclusively
involved with Yog-Sothoth. I've always assumed she was very wanton,
similar to the Greek goddess, Aphrodite.

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

StoOdin101

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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>Also, I've never really thought of Shub-Niggurath as exclusively
>involved with Yog-Sothoth. I've always assumed she was very wanton,
>similar to the Greek goddess, Aphrodite.
>

While HPL (pronounced Hippel, no doubt) never elaborated much on Shubby, Ramsey
Campbell --- back when he was J.Ramsey Campbell --- did so in THE MOON LENS.
Your assumption is very much on target if we accept TML as canon.

JBL (pronounced Jibble, of course)

KAYVEN

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
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In article <6nq47c$3...@nntp02.primenet.com>, "Donovan K. Loucks"
<webm...@hplovecraft.com> writes:

>I've never been comfortable with the term "Mi-Go", even though Lovecraft
>uses it in both "The Whisperer in Darkness" and _At the Mountains of
>Madness_. Instead, I prefer the term Outer Ones, which is used twice as
>many times as Mi-Go, even though only in "The Whisperer in Darkness". The
>term "Mi-Go" _may_ actually be a real Nepalese term, and to call
>Lovecraft's creations by this name would be akin to simply calling them
>"Abominable Snow-Men".

I've often wondered why Lovecraft made a connection between the Yeti legend
and the Outer Ones. To our late-20th Century minds, the idea of the
"Abominable Snowman" is akin to a mountain climbing Bigfoot or ape-man, not
fungoid beings with crab-like appendages. Still, it is obvious that the origin
of the name "Mi-Go" comes from the first word in the Tibetan name:
"metoh-kangmi" which has been incorrectly translated as "Abominable Snowman".
Most Tibetan linguists have suggested that "metoh" is more accurately
translated as "filthy", "disgusting", or "demon" (thus the image of filth is
somewhat more spiritual than physical) instead of "abominable".
Anyhow, I believe that "Mi-Go" comes from "metoh", pronounced Me-Tow.

Here is an interesting account from _The Story of Everest_ (Boston, 1927,
pp.110-12) by Captain John Noel....

"They lived high up on Everest, and at times came down a wrought havoc in
the villages... One must speak of them with great respect, otherwise they will
bring bad luck and perhaps even come down and raid and kill, because they are
known to kill men, carry off women, and to bite the necks of yaks and drink
their blood. The ordinary Tibetan peasant.... tells of their strange rovings
in the snow, of the long hair which falls over their eyes, so that if you are
chased by a Sukpa (another native word for the Yeti) you must run downhill;
then the long hair will get into his eyes and you can escape from him... The
King of the Sukpas is supposed to live on the very top of Everest, whence he
can look down upon the world below, and choose upon which herd of grazing yaks
he will decend. Yak-herds say that the Sukpa can jump by huge bounds at a
time; that he is much taller than the tallest man; and that he has a hard tail
upon which he can sit. The men he kills he will not eat. He just bites off
the tips of their fingers, toes and noses, and leaves them."

Is this where Lovecraft got his information? Maybe. There are certainly echos
here that would much later be part and parcel of the Mythic Outer Ones.

1. Living in the mountains away from the cities of humanity
2. abducting humans and carrying them away.
3. Long hair hiding their eyes = a head covered with "multitudes of very short
antenna"
4. jumping huge bounds = large membranous wings to fly through the ether

One might say that the taking of fingers and noses might be a good analogy to
the final events in TWID, but it is obvious that the legend has more to do with
the effects of frost bite than actual forced removal of human body parts.
Still, even with these (admittingly strained) comparisons, AFAIK there isn't
anything to indicate that Lovecraft knew of this book. Though its being
published in Boston in 1927 makes it possible, this was hardly the only source
for the Yeti stories floating around ever since the First Everest Expedition
found footprints in 1921.


One other Mythos story dealing with the Outer Ones that hasn't been mentioned
is Lin Carter's "The Dweller in the Tomb". Here the Outer Ones ambush an
expedition and literally rip a few of the native guides apart. This is also
the first story where a character actually EATS an Outer One. I wonder if it
tasted like chicken.


---- Steven Marc Harris

Information about the IRC chat:

o The day: Wednesday
o The time: 2100 EST (2000 CST, 1900 MST, and 1800 PST)
o The network: DALnet
o The preferred server: hebron.in.us.dal.net
o The channel: #cthulhu
o The topic: "The Whisperer in Darkness"


"Whoever heard of an animal part lizard, part crustacean, bigger than a
grizzly, and - winged?" --- From the _Journal of the Copeland-Ellington
Expedition_ , edited by Henry S. Blaine, Ph.D.

KAYVEN

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
to

In article <35A05A...@columbia-center.org>, Dan Clore
<cl...@columbia-center.org> writes:

>Robert E. Howard has a story called "The Children of the Night", which
>tells us that "Von Junzt makes mention of a so-called Bran cult" etc etc
>etc.


The quote in question from "The Children of the Night"....


"And in his mutterings I first heard of the ancient cult hinted at by Von
Junzt; of the king who rules the Dark Empire, which was a revival of an older,
darker empire dating back into the Stone Age; and of the great, nameless cavern
where stands the Dark Man--- the image of Bran Mak Morn, carved in his likeness
by a master-hand while the great king yet lived, and which each worshipper of
Bran makes a pilgrimage once in his or her lifetime. Yes, that cult lives
today in the descendants of Bran's people -- a silent, unknown current it flows
on in the great ocean of life, wiating for the stone image of the great Bran to
breathe and move with sudden life, and come from the great cavern to rebuild
their lost empire." (p139. Pigeons From Hell, Zebra Books, 1976)

Bran's people are the Picts. Though these Picts are not identical to the
Celtic people later called the Picts by the Romans in 82 A.D. Howard's story
suggests that the Celtic invasion of the British Isles circa 3000 B.C.led to
the earlier Pictish people into intermarriage and/or self-imposed exile into
the wilds or under the ground.
Thus the Picts of the Romans are only slightly related to the Picts of the
Stone Age, though the connection is there.

On a side note, the afroementioned cavern, judging from the clues left in "The
Dark Man" (collected in the recently published Bran Mak Morn collection by Baen
Books), seems to be located on the island of Lismore amid the Scottish Inner
Isles. By either chance or the cunning of Howard, Lismore just happens to be
the location of St. Moluag's sixth-century's missionary base and eventual
burial plot. St. Moluag is the patron saint of the Picts, just as St. Andrew is
the patron of the Scottish people.


And as an added extra, right across the waters of Loch Linnhe from Lismore
Island is Castle Stalker, better known to fans of Monty Python as "Castle
Aaaaaaaaaaaa" in _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_.


---- Steven Marc Harris


P.S. Visitors to Lismore Island may want to check out Tirefour Castle there.
Its a circular stone fort over two thousand years old occuping a commanding
position and boasts walls over almost 10 ft thick in places. The speculation on
why they needed 10 feet of stone between them and the outside is enough to
inspire a few nightmares.


******************************


"When his race is lost to history's pages,
And his battlefields forgotten amid frost and fir.
Then shall there be a miracle of the ages,
As mighty Bran from his dark slumber stirs."
-----David Hasselhoff, Lyrics from the song "Bran Mak Morn, Wolf of the
Heather" from the album _Knight Rider and Knight-Mares_

StoOdin101

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
to

>This is also
>the first story where a character actually EATS an Outer One. I wonder if it
>tasted like chicken.

They're more like portabella mushrooms. Delicious when broiled.

Steven Howard

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
to

In <6nq47c$3...@nntp02.primenet.com>, on 07/06/98
at 02:09 AM, "Donovan K. Loucks" <webm...@hplovecraft.com> said:


>Speaking of monsters, this story also contains one of Lovecraft's rare
>laundry lists, which later became a staple of Derleth's tales -- his
>worst example is probably the entire text of _The Lurker at the
>Threshold_! Against my better judgment, I'll repeat Lovecraft's list
>here:

> I found myself faced by names and terms that I had heard elsewhere in
> the most hideous of connexions -- Yuggoth, Great Cthulhu, Tsathoggua,
> Yog-Sothoth, R'lyeh, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Hastur, Yian, Leng, the
> Lake of Hali, Bethmoora, the Yellow Sign, L'mur-Kathulos, Bran, and
>the
> Magnum Innominandum -- and was drawn back through nameless aeons and
> inconceivable dimensions to worlds of elder, outer entity at which the
> crazed author of the _Necronomicon_ had only guessed in the vaguest
> way. ("The Whisperer in Darkness", p. 223)

>Honestly, that wasn't all that bad, at least when compared to Derleth.

Lin Carter actually refers to this paragraph as an example of "the 'meat'
of the Cthulhu Mythos" in his afterword to this story in THE SPAWN OF
CTHULHU, which probably goes a long way toward explaining why Carter's
Mythos stories are so bad.

========
Steven Howard
bl...@ibm.net
http://www.geocities.com/~blore

"Do you have a goal that you focus all your energies on?"
"You mean other than getting myself dressed for work and
staying there until 5:00?"

Ctankep

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Jul 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/6/98
to
Frank,

Good luck, and may the appropriate deities be with you. I am sure there
are many of us who have dreamed of a decent Mythos movie. There have
been brief moments in many of them, even back to "The Dunwich Horror"
and "Die Monster Die", but nothing that could sustain the effects that
Lovecraft at his best could.

I think there are two main reasons for this:

1. Lovecraft's work depends as much on atmosphere as plot (even more so
for C. A. Smith, whose work, unlike Howard or Lovecraft, no one has ever
even tried to bring to film). Hollywood cinema is mostly driven by plot
and action. The emphasis on action is almost the antithesis of
Lovecraft.

2. Few movies have ever come close to depicting the sheer alien
grotesquerie of Lovecraft's vision. Perhaps Ridley Scott's Alien did,
which makes me think that a successful Lovecraft film will probably have
H.R. Giger in the art department. Since Hitchcock died, Hollywood has
been more explicit and left less to the imagination. Lovecraft was just
the opposite. I always felt that where he gave detailed descriptions of
his entities in some of the later tales such as "At the Mountains of
Madness," The Whisperer in darkness," and "The Shadoew Out of Time" that
he "broke the spell" somewhat (which is not to say that I did not enjoy
those stories).

I remain optimistic. If Hollywood could do justice to P.K. Dick, Jim
Thompson, and James Ellroy, Lovecraft has a chance.

Scott N.

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
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KAYVEN wrote:

>
> ---- Steven Marc Harris
>

Mr. Harris,

It seems entirely possible that Lovecraft was at least aware of this
book. His letters certainly indicate that he had a stong attraction to
the exploits of arctic exploration in particular and geography in
general.

In any event, I attempted to follow the trail of the Yeti. All I've
learned was where not to look.

Don't bother cosulting Lewis Spence's Encyclopedia of Occultism. The
entry for Tibet contains nothing relevent. Also, there is no entry for
Abominable Snowman or Yeti.

Oddly enough, there are no Tibet entries in Joshi's index of the
selected letters.

Also, none of the biographies I have mentions the Yeti. If they do, I
can't find it.

So, in the end, I was unable to uncover anything about where HPL learned
of the aforementioned myths.

You know, this whole issue of the Mi-go's ability to impersonate men
reminds me of the film, Mimic. It is not a great film, but it does
feature these man sized insects who possess a natural camouflage that
allows them to look like tall men.

The movie, Mimic, is in not a Mythos film. However, it has improved my
ability to envision the multi-legged Mi-go disguised as humans.

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
to
KAYVEN wrote:
>
> In article <35A05A...@columbia-center.org>, Dan Clore
> <cl...@columbia-center.org> writes:
>
> >Robert E. Howard has a story called "The Children of the Night", which
> >tells us that "Von Junzt makes mention of a so-called Bran cult" etc etc
> >etc.
>
> The quote in question from "The Children of the Night"....
>
> "And in his mutterings I first heard of the ancient cult hinted at by Von
> Junzt; of the king who rules the Dark Empire, which was a revival of an older,
> darker empire dating back into the Stone Age; and of the great, nameless cavern
> where stands the Dark Man--- the image of Bran Mak Morn, carved in his likeness
> by a master-hand while the great king yet lived, and which each worshipper of
> Bran makes a pilgrimage once in his or her lifetime. Yes, that cult lives
> today in the descendants of Bran's people -- a silent, unknown current it flows
> on in the great ocean of life, wiating for the stone image of the great Bran to
> breathe and move with sudden life, and come from the great cavern to rebuild
> their lost empire." (p139. Pigeons From Hell, Zebra Books, 1976)
>
> ---- Steven Marc Harris
>
Thanks for the info. The mention of Bran in TWID makes sense now. Does
anyone know if this tale is available in a more recent publication?

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
to
Steven Howard wrote:
I'll repeat Lovecraft's list
> >here:
>
> > I found myself faced by names and terms that I had heard elsewhere in
> > the most hideous of connexions -- Yuggoth, Great Cthulhu, Tsathoggua,
> > Yog-Sothoth, R'lyeh, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Hastur, Yian, Leng, the
> > Lake of Hali, Bethmoora, the Yellow Sign, L'mur-Kathulos, Bran, and
> >the
> > Magnum Innominandum -- and was drawn back through nameless aeons and
> > inconceivable dimensions to worlds of elder, outer entity at which the
> > crazed author of the _Necronomicon_ had only guessed in the vaguest
> > way. ("The Whisperer in Darkness", p. 223)
>
> >Honestly, that wasn't all that bad, at least when compared to Derleth.
>
> Lin Carter actually refers to this paragraph as an example of "the 'meat'
> of the Cthulhu Mythos" in his afterword to this story in THE SPAWN OF
> CTHULHU, which probably goes a long way toward explaining why Carter's
> Mythos stories are so bad.
>
> ========
> Steven Howard

Hello Steve,

I know what you mean. When I got Bloch's "Mysteries of the Worm" I sat
down and read one story after another. I didn't start reading another
book until I had finished the entire collection. That's how I usually
go through anthologies.

This was not the case with "The Xothic Legend Cycle". I simply had to
read something else in between tales. Memory tells me that it took
about a month to work my way through the whole collection. Oh sure,
there were some bright points here and there, but overall I was very
disappointed.

In a conversation I had with Bob Price about the stories, I learned that
Lin Carter would first come up with a Mythos element he felt was
missing. He would then create a story around this newly created god,
tome or locale. Seems a wee bit back-assward to me. IMHO, of course.

Regards,
Donald Eric Kesler

Frank Frey (SOK)

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
to
Greetings,

If anybody out there would like to talk about the idea of a Mythos themed
movie, I'm working on several treatments now. IMO, there has yet to be a
decent mythos movie. The big question is; is Hollywood capable of making
such a thing?

I await your comments.

Frank Frey

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad!"
Salvador Dali
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Donovan K. Loucks

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
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Steven Marc Harris <kay...@aol.com> wrote,

Still, it is obvious that the origin of the name "Mi-Go" comes from the


first word in the Tibetan name: "metoh-kangmi" which has been
incorrectly translated as "Abominable Snowman". Most Tibetan linguists
have suggested that "metoh" is more accurately translated as "filthy",
"disgusting", or "demon" (thus the image of filth is somewhat more
spiritual than physical) instead of "abominable". Anyhow, I believe
that "Mi-Go" comes from "metoh", pronounced Me-Tow.

For quite some time I've wondered if the word "Mi-go" can be found prior
to Lovecraft's use of it. In a letter to Fritz Leiber dated 18 November
1936 Lovecraft indicates that the word wasn't his invention:

By the way, though strange as it may seem, I did _not_ invent the Mi-go
or Abominable Snow Men. This is genuine Nepalese folklore surrounding
the Himalayas, & I picked it up in most unscholarly fashion from the
newspaper & magazine articles exploiting one or another of the attempts
on Mt. Everest.

So, if "Mi-go" was based on "metoh", it apparently wasn't Lovecraft's
doing. I wonder if this term could be found in old articles in the
_Providence Sunday Journal_...

gable

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Jul 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/7/98
to

>> For quite some time I've wondered if the word "Mi-go" can be found prior
>> to Lovecraft's use of it. In a letter to Fritz Leiber dated 18 November
>> 1936 Lovecraft indicates that the word wasn't his invention:
>>
>> By the way, though strange as it may seem, I did _not_ invent the
Mi-go
>> or Abominable Snow Men. This is genuine Nepalese folklore surrounding
>> the Himalayas, & I picked it up in most unscholarly fashion from the
>> newspaper & magazine articles exploiting one or another of the
attempts
>> on Mt. Everest.

>>
>> So, if "Mi-go" was based on "metoh", it apparently wasn't Lovecraft's
>> doing. I wonder if this term could be found in old articles in the
>> _Providence Sunday Journal_...

"Abominable Snowmen Legend Come To Life" (or something similar), by Ivan T.
Sanderson, has a glossary of names for the yeti. It lists "mi-go," and its
linguistic derivation. IMHO, it *was* something similar to metoh.

Andrew D. Gable

jpe...@cnw.com

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
In article <35A1E2...@fantasm.org>,

"D. E. Kesler" <er...@fantasm.org> wrote:

"Pigeons from Hell" was reprinted by ACE in 1979 and can be found for
anywhere from $2.00 to $10.00 on MX Bookfinder. It contains some of Howard's
best weird fiction and is well worth picking up.

JP
>
> Regards,
>
> Donald Eric Kesler

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
jpe...@cnw.com wrote:

> > Thanks for the info. The mention of Bran in TWID makes sense now. Does
> > anyone know if this tale is available in a more recent publication?
>
> "Pigeons from Hell" was reprinted by ACE in 1979 and can be found for
> anywhere from $2.00 to $10.00 on MX Bookfinder. It contains some of Howard's
> best weird fiction and is well worth picking up.
>
> JP
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Donald Eric Kesler
> >
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Thank you good sir.

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

GigiloAunt

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
>The big question is; is Hollywood capable of making such a thing? <

No.


Rich
"Man, when thou seest the comet, know that another seeketh besides thee nor
ever findeth out."---Dunsany---

GigiloAunt

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
>I always felt that where he gave detailed descriptions of
his entities in some of the later tales such as "At the Mountains of
Madness," The Whisperer in darkness," and "The Shadoew Out of Time" that
he "broke the spell" somewhat (which is not to say that I did not enjoy
those stories).<

That always added to the work in my opinion, when done right. At the Mountains
of Madness was basically a factual account of the old ones, their history and
such. Lovecraft finally put it into perspective, with no tomes or
incantations. The old ones are simply another race, to whom we matter not at
all, and they are more powerful than we are. Evil powers are diffuse, and
while they can be feared, they can't be grasped really. Something you can
understand on some level, and that you can even relate to in some ways, but is
beyond your control, is something else entirely.

D. E. Kesler

unread,
Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
Donovan K. Loucks wrote:
>
> For quite some time I've wondered if the word "Mi-go" can be found prior
> to Lovecraft's use of it. In a letter to Fritz Leiber dated 18 November
> 1936 Lovecraft indicates that the word wasn't his invention:
>
> By the way, though strange as it may seem, I did _not_ invent the Mi-go
> or Abominable Snow Men. This is genuine Nepalese folklore surrounding
> the Himalayas, & I picked it up in most unscholarly fashion from the
> newspaper & magazine articles exploiting one or another of the attempts
> on Mt. Everest.
>
> So, if "Mi-go" was based on "metoh", it apparently wasn't Lovecraft's
> doing. I wonder if this term could be found in old articles in the
> _Providence Sunday Journal_...

Donovan,

Could it not have come in one of those bundles of cuttings Miss
Elizabeth Toldridge sent to HPL? Perhaps, the article you seek could be
found in the archives of some Washington Peiodical.

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
Ctankep wrote:

I always felt that where he gave detailed descriptions of
> his entities in some of the later tales such as "At the Mountains of
> Madness," The Whisperer in darkness," and "The Shadoew Out of Time" that
> he "broke the spell" somewhat (which is not to say that I did not enjoy
> those stories).
>

> Scott N.

Mr. Scott N.

I'm afraid I must disagree. I suspect that Lovecraft was not actually
breaking the spell; rather, he was weaving an entirely different
enchantment.

Notice that in two of the stories you've cited Lovecraft presents one
monster that he can describe then, at the climax, he gives you a second
horror that is a maddening string of adjectives.

In doing this, I think lovecraft was trying to set the reader up for a
fall. Consider the following. Lovecraft describes a horrid monster.
The unsuspecting reader after plowing through the minutely detailed
description says to himself, "I can handle this."

Lovecraft then hits the reader across the forehead with some formless
abomination. "What the Hell was that!" exclaims the reader.

At least, that is what I suspect Lovecraft was trying to accomplish.

The only one of the works cited that does not fit this pattern is "The
Whisperer in Darkness". However, if you review the thread on this NG, I
think you will see that there is a definate degree of ambiguity in the
ending. Events, rather than monsters, appear somewhat distorted and
awry. I like to think that this was intentional.

Regards and Best Wishes,
Donald Eric Kesler

StoOdin101

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
>1. Lovecraft's work depends as much on atmosphere as plot (even more so
>for C. A. Smith, whose work, unlike Howard or Lovecraft, no one has ever
>even tried to bring to film). Hollywood cinema is mostly driven by plot
>and action. The emphasis on action is almost the antithesis of
>Lovecraft.

This is why I say, and will always say until the day of the Great Rising, that
the most Lovecraftian films are certain episodes of the original Outer Limits
series, in particular DONT OPEN TILL DOOMSDAY, THE GUESTS, IT CRAWLED OUT OF
THE WOODWORK and THE FORMS OF THINGS UNKNOWN. Atmosphere is EVERYTHING in
those eps. The sfx are very cheesy by today's standards, but that doesn't
matter.

>2. Few movies have ever come close to depicting the sheer alien
>grotesquerie of Lovecraft's vision. Perhaps Ridley Scott's Alien did,
>which makes me think that a successful Lovecraft film will probably have
>H.R. Giger in the art department.

Anything but that! Giger is a one-trick pony. He could do fine by the Mi-Go,
er, Outer Ones and the Antarctic Old Ones, but I can't see his designs being
applicable to Cthulhu, to the Great Race, to Pickman's models or the deformed
horrors of THE COLOUR OUT OF SPACE.
(TCOOS is the story I long to see brought to life. It's been tried twice and no
one has gotten it right yet. Of course it must be filmed in BLACK AND WHITE,
since the Colour is indescribable. However, the adaptations so far have simply
eliminated the Colour and substituted "some weird radiation " or " strange
elements " from the meteorite. That ruins the terror of the thing! )

I think it would require several different artists to do the different races
and beings of an epic Lovecraftian film, Giger certainly among them. In a
story with only one Lovecraftian monster, such as "Call of Cthulhu" or "The
Dunwich Horror", a single artist might suffice.

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
StoOdin101 wrote:

snip

> >H.R. Giger in the art department.
>
> Anything but that! Giger is a one-trick pony. He could do fine by the Mi-Go,
> er, Outer Ones and the Antarctic Old Ones, but I can't see his designs being
> applicable to Cthulhu, to the Great Race, to Pickman's models or the deformed
> horrors of THE COLOUR OUT OF SPACE.

I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe that Giger is far more versitile
than you give him credit for. Compare his work on Alien with his less
publicized efforts on the second Poltergeist film.

> (TCOOS is the story I long to see brought to life. It's been tried twice and no
> one has gotten it right yet. Of course it must be filmed in BLACK AND WHITE,
> since the Colour is indescribable.

Unfortunately, no major studio would be willing to produce a Black and
White film. Unless, of course, the director has a very good track
record.

StoOdin101

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
>I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe that Giger is far more versitile
>than you give him credit for. Compare his work on Alien with his less
>publicized efforts on the second Poltergeist film.

His Poltergeist work was almost invisible, what's to compare? But I'm looking
at the Species monster, which looks like the Alien with some anatomical
features of a female human added... I'm looking at my copy of GIGER'S
NECRONOMICON, which is really neat but doesn't show much variation on the Giger
theme....and anyway, I don't WANT to see a biomechanical Cthulhu or nightgaunt!
Only the Mi-Go and those revenants under the Indian mound qualify for Gigerian
development. And maybe Wilbur Whateley and his bro.

>Unfortunately, no major studio would be willing to produce a Black and
>White film. Unless, of course, the director has a very good track
>record.
>

Thus the only way to get a real COLOUR OUT OF SPACE on film is to do it as a
low-budget project....or do it in colour and lose the very effect that gives
the story so much of its strangeness. Or convince James Cameron to do it, get
the studio money committed, and then knock him out and take over the picture
so that it will get done right.

D. E. Kesler

unread,
Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
StoOdin101 wrote:
>
> >I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe that Giger is far more versitile
> >than you give him credit for. Compare his work on Alien with his less
> >publicized efforts on the second Poltergeist film.
>
> His Poltergeist work was almost invisible, what's to compare? But I'm looking
> at the Species monster, which looks like the Alien with some anatomical
> features of a female human added... I'm looking at my copy of GIGER'S
> NECRONOMICON, which is really neat but doesn't show much variation on the Giger
> theme....and anyway, I don't WANT to see a biomechanical Cthulhu or nightgaunt!
> Only the Mi-Go and those revenants under the Indian mound qualify for Gigerian
> development. And maybe Wilbur Whateley and his bro.

Although I do not agree with your staements regarding Poltergeist II, I
must agree with you regarding Species. It was almost as if he was
creating a parody of his earier efforts. I wonder if he was asked to
make the monster appear alienesque?

Also, I for one, would love to see a biomechanical Cthulhu or
nightguant. I'm not saying this is how big C. should appear in a film.
I'm just saying that I would enjoy viewing Giger's interpretation of the
subjects.

Actually, if a cinematic version of "The Call of Cthulhu" was ever
produced I think the director would be wise if he or she avoided
completely showing C. Consider the first Alien film, Ridley Scott
showed tremendous restraint and offered us only tantalizing and horrific
glimpses of the entity. The same cannot be said of "To Cast a Deadly
Spell." Not only did we see the monster, but the camera lingered for
far too long.

I think there is a technique that could be used to obfuscate big C's
true form. IMHO the full potential of the morphing special effect has
yet to be realized. So far, the transformations have all been rather
obvious and dramatic. Don't get me wrong. This is a fine application
of the effect. However, I don't believe that anyone has tried to use
the morphing effect in an extremely subtle manner. I'm thinking about
transformations so gradual that you have to really pay close attention
to even notice the effect.

Of course, I would imagine that very few producers want subtle. After
all, if they are paying for special effects they probably want to be
able to clearly see where their money went.



> >Unfortunately, no major studio would be willing to produce a Black and
> >White film. Unless, of course, the director has a very good track
> >record.
> >
>
> Thus the only way to get a real COLOUR OUT OF SPACE on film is to do it as a
> low-budget project....or do it in colour and lose the very effect that gives
> the story so much of its strangeness. Or convince James Cameron to do it, get
> the studio money committed, and then knock him out and take over the picture
> so that it will get done right.


I don't know if I agree with you regarding the need for Black and White.
I think that a competent director who truly cared about the project
could make the story work in color. However, I personally would prefer
black and white simply because I like the inherent aesthetics of
monochromatic images. This is just one of the many elements that really
draws me toward Giger's work.

Regarding your proposed assault upon Mr. Cameron, let us first exhaust
all of our other options first. [:

Regards,

Donald Eric Kesler

Dan Miller

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98
to
The best HPL adaptation I've seen (and it gets relatively little mention)
is "The Resurrected"

It's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" only modernized....very faithful
to the original....I highly recommend it as a rental!
The only star (if you can call him one) is Chris Sarandon who
plays Charles/Curwen.

Dan

Frank Frey (SOK) wrote in message ...


>Greetings,
>
>If anybody out there would like to talk about the idea of a Mythos themed
>movie, I'm working on several treatments now. IMO, there has yet to be a

>decent mythos movie. The big question is; is Hollywood capable of making
>such a thing?
>

ChickLewis

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
I rented and watched The Resurrected last weekend, and concur. It is quite
good, and surprisingly faithful to HPL's version. Chick says "Rent It".


"Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true."
- Lord Dunsany
Chick...@aol.com
3930 Cody Road
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 USA
day 818-718-1221
eve 818-784-8476

StoOdin101

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
>The best HPL adaptation I've seen (and it gets relatively little mention)
>is "The Resurrected"
>
>It's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" only modernized....very faithful
>to the original....I highly recommend it as a rental!
>The only star (if you can call him one) is Chris Sarandon who
>plays Charles/Curwen.

Didn't like the REVISED ENDING! Other than that, not bad, though sadly lacking
in ATMOSPHERE. Sarandon made a good Ward/Curwen, but he just wasn't USED
enough.
Jibble gives it 3 stars out of 5. Still probably the best "Big HPL Film" we
have, so far....

StoOdin101

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
>Although I do not agree with your staements regarding Poltergeist II,

Giger does. He was really miffed that he put all that time into the critters,
only to find them left on the cutting room floor.

>Actually, if a cinematic version of "The Call of Cthulhu" was ever
>produced I think the director would be wise if he or she avoided
>completely showing C.

I think it should end, not with the Lovecraft yacht-vs-Cthulhu ending, but with
the big C getting bigger and BIGGER in the background while the boat flees
away.
A "Birds"-type finale. (Now I'm revising the end, exactly what I griped about
in THE RESURRECTED! )
Maybe we could then cut back to Thurston and his final additions to the
manuscript, as in the original. And I think Thurston should look like Lovecraft
as much as possible.

And I want Cthulhu BIG, blast it! BIG! "A mountain walked or stumbled"...I'm
thinking Everest. Or Olympus Mons.

>I think there is a technique that could be used to obfuscate big C's
>true form. IMHO the full potential of the morphing special effect has
>yet to be realized.

Sounds good to me. I have been trying to draw a truly amorphous, gelatinous,
etc. Cthulhu for DECADES and have come close a couple of times. I just finished
a new picture of the fiend, based a little more on HPL's sketch of the idol
than the last one I did. But the morphing technique is PRECISELY what is needed
to keep Cthulhu from becoming too concrete on film. Scariest monster I ever saw
on Tee Vee as a kid was the thing in the Outer Limits ep IT CRAWLED OUT OF THE
WOODWORK, and it was scary because it was utterly amorphous and very, very
fast. A special effect. These days it probably just brings laughs, but in the
60s it was a million times better than the usual rubber suit. It's also always
referred to as "Lovecraftian" in articles and interviews. Imagine that.
Anyway, Cthulhu needs to be the 90s hi-tech equivalent of the It that Crawled.

AJB

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to

Frank Frey (SOK) wrote in message ...
>If anybody out there would like to talk about the idea of a Mythos themed
>movie, I'm working on several treatments now. IMO, there has yet to be a
>decent mythos movie. The big question is; is Hollywood capable of making
>such a thing?


I've pondered it many times and began a completely awful attempt to do a
screenplay of "The Call of Cthulhu". Here are some of the problems I see:

(1) The general trend of mid-range budget horror flicks is steady body count
and some sex mixed in with a thin, smirking plot (i.e. not taking the horror
seriously). Mythos stories don't lend themselves so well to that take on the
genre. Mind you, more recent films such as "Event Horizon" and "Scream" do
other things (whatever their other faults) that suggest Hollywood is more
and more willing to offer intelligent horror.

(2) At least with Lovecraft, few of his stories have strong, charismatic
lead characters. One exception would be "The Horror At Red Hook". It's hard
to sell a screenplay without at least this element. I'm not saying that is a
good thing but it is commercial reality.

(3) What makes the Mythos intriguing is the tantalizing connections between
different stories you've read years apart mixed in with actual history /
geography. Hard to pack that into a 90 minute flick but not totally
impossible.

It seems to me that "At the Mountains of Madness" or some kind of adaptation
of Lumley's Titus Crow stories are good working materials.

--- Andre Bilan

KAYVEN

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
In article <6o16mn$7f7$1...@hirame.wwa.com>, "Dan Miller" <mill...@wwa.com>
writes:

>The best HPL adaptation I've seen (and it gets relatively little mention)
>is "The Resurrected"
>
>It's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" only modernized....very faithful
>to the original....I highly recommend it as a rental!
>The only star (if you can call him one) is Chris Sarandon who
>plays Charles/Curwen.


Here, Here! I also will second this opinion. While the ending is slightly
flawed, the scenes taking place in new England during the 1700s were among my
favorites. I've often felt that if a movie were to be done as a period piece,
it would force certain constraints upon the film-makers to focus on atmosphere.
It would also prevent any Lovecraft adaption into becoming a "who has the
bigger gun" movie.
Also wonderful scenes from The Resurrected has to be when they find the door
to the underground caverns. I expected it to be nothing more than a wooden
door hidden behind a bookcase, but it instead turned out to be a narrow
circular door in the floor with nothing but darkness beyond the opening. I
wouldn't have gone down!
And I would pay some big bucks to get a hold of the prop used for Curwin's
diary. Beautiful!!!
All in all, the movie is quite a treat after sitting through some real
stinkers (has anyone tracked down and executed the producer of Cthulhu Mansion
yet? And if not, why not?).

The movie does raise one important question though, why were there changes
involved? Updating it to modern times wasn't a big deal to me. I can easily
see how doing so could save some big bucks to spend on some of the special
effects. But why the wife instead of parents? If it was because they felt they
needed a love interest, why was this aspect never really played up? There
wasn't even nudity. (Not that it needed it, but it would explain why they
brought in a young woman instead of an elderly couple worried about their son.)
And why the need for the changed ending? Just to add a little light and
noise?
I don't know. So many of the B-grade movies 'based' on Lovecraft's work seem
to change things to fit Hollywood's image of a good movie. Add lots of flashy
lights and flashy girls. But these movies obviously don't rake in tons of
money. Was the movie Necronomicon a contender for grossing the same amount as
Titantic? Not bloody likely!!! ( as our Peter Miller would say.) So why do
they pretend that this is the goal of the movie production? If the movie isn't
going to make that much money (and they must surely know this) then why not try
to make their movie keep as close to the text as their budget will allow? Am I
missing something?


---- Steven Marc Harris

StoOdin101

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
>It seems to me that "At the Mountains of Madness" or some kind of adaptation
>of Lumley's Titus Crow stories are good working materials.

Long's HORROR FROM THE HILLS is the perfect Hollywood Cthulhu story. It has a
monster that tears people to bits and looks like H.R. Giger designed it, it has
psychic occurrences, evil dreams and death rays, mad scientists and horrific
mutants, and a car chase at the end.
Change one of the characters to a woman for the requisite love interest and
film away!

GigiloAunt

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
>But why the wife instead of parents? <

Even though the love interest angle wasn't played majorly here, it was at
least present. Hollywood would rather concentrate on a man/woman relationship
than man/parents-of-missing-person relationship.

>Am I missing something?<

Yup. None has thought of it, to be quite frank. All the horror directors and
producers I have seen interviewed and heard from in some other way have their
heads so far up their conventions and cliches, they don't even attmept anything
else.

g a t z

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
In article <199807080554...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
gigil...@aol.com (GigiloAunt) wrote:

> >The big question is; is Hollywood capable of making such a thing? <
>

One of the things I was struck by after watching The X Files Movie was that
it was a good example of how Lovecraftian horror could be pulled off on
film. A whole lot of revelations without any resolutions. Now of course any
HPL based effort should have considerably more suspense and a genuine sense
of threat (which most Hollywood properties is incapable of creating), but
the X-Files' successful delivery of an abundance of details overcame one of
the major obstacles of any HPL based film. In fact the cell phone, the fax
and email would suit alot of HPL's set pieces better that alot of the
technology he had to be satisfied with. Imagine, instead of a hefty wax
phonograph being lugged to the site of a Mi-Go ceremony, our protagonist
has a cell phone. The dramatic possiblities of the exposition motifs The X
Files uses seem perfectly in sync with a lot of the devices HPL choose to
use. Of course where FTF falls short is the ultimate revelation that throws
everything into a new light. But to be fair the only "suprise" revelation
to really worked on film is The Conversation. There have been "suprises"
that worked dramatically (but the observate could see coming), or worked as
a suprise (usually by way of an important omission) but never as well as
the subtle twist on given info that blows everything out of the water. A
well written HPL film could match this.


Randy Gates

http://www.azstarnet.com/~gatz
------------

"....actually it's a hippopotamus, but that's besides the point..."

------------

D. E. Kesler

unread,
Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to Frank Frey (SOK)
Frank Frey (SOK) wrote:
>
> Greetings,

>
> If anybody out there would like to talk about the idea of a Mythos themed
> movie, I'm working on several treatments now.

Were you considering writing an adapdation of an existing tale? If so,
which one?

Regards,
Donald Eric Kesler

David Skogsberg

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
In article <199807090425...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
StoOdin101 <stood...@aol.com> wrote:

>Long's HORROR FROM THE HILLS is the perfect Hollywood Cthulhu story.

Speaking of _Horror From The Hills_, is this collected in any recent
anthology (or intended for collection in the near future, as that may
be)?

Anyone know and want to enlighten this poor one?

cd
--
"And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ...Seven
and Nine, down the onyx steps ...(Tri)butes to him in the Gulf, Aza-
thoth, He of Whom Thou has taught us marv(els)..." -H. P. Lovecraft
cd skogsberg | d97...@dtek.chalmers.se

vio...@drizzle.com

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98
to
In article <
35a3e...@news.redrose.net>,

"gable" <ga...@redrose.net> wrote:
>
> >> For quite some time I've wondered if the word "Mi-go" can be found prior
> >> to Lovecraft's use of it. In a letter to Fritz Leiber dated 18 November
> >> 1936 Lovecraft indicates that the word wasn't his invention:
> >>
> >> By the way, though strange as it may seem, I did _not_ invent the
> Mi-go
> >> or Abominable Snow Men. This is genuine Nepalese folklore surrounding
> >> the Himalayas, & I picked it up in most unscholarly fashion from the
> >> newspaper & magazine articles exploiting one or another of the
> attempts
> >> on Mt. Everest.
>
> >>
> >> So, if "Mi-go" was based on "metoh", it apparently wasn't Lovecraft's
> >> doing. I wonder if this term could be found in old articles in the
> >> _Providence Sunday Journal_...
>
> "Abominable Snowmen Legend Come To Life" (or something similar), by Ivan T.
> Sanderson, has a glossary of names for the yeti. It lists "mi-go," and its
> linguistic derivation. IMHO, it *was* something similar to metoh.
>
> Andrew D. Gable
>

HPL in a letter to H. Warner Munn said
that Mi-go was a Chinese delicacy he
once ordered by accident in a Boston
Chinese restaurant. When he saw all
those boiled baby octopi, black & whole
amidst hills of broccoli, his deep abiding
horror of fish thrust itself upon him so
that he had to run home & write a tale.
-violet.

Azrael

unread,
Jul 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/10/98
to
>Scariest monster I ever saw
>on Tee Vee as a kid was the thing in the Outer Limits ep IT CRAWLED OUT OF
THE
>WOODWORK, and it was scary because it was utterly amorphous and very, very
>fast.

In which case a Shoggoth would look supremely scary on film.
It can't be a just a big geletin dessert, like 'THE BLOB', but a truly
Lovecratian
depictation with a mass of continually altering black protoplasmic bubbles,
spawning
claws, which become mouths, then feet, then eyes and so on.

Now *that* would be a nice special effect.

Azrael

unread,
Jul 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/10/98
to
> In fact the cell phone, the fax
>and email would suit alot of HPL's set pieces better that alot of the
>technology he had to be satisfied with. Imagine, instead of a hefty wax
>phonograph being lugged to the site of a Mi-Go ceremony, our protagonist
>has a cell phone

Technology and HPL could make a good marriage. Although there is the problem
it could devolve into a big techno-fest that most sci-fi today tends to bear
towards.
Imagine how less effective "The Dunwich Horror" would be if a bunch of
Scientists
from Miskatonic U. arrived in Dunwich with bazookas, flame-throwers, and
several
charges of Grade-A explosives.

However, in some cases, especially in those storys where the narrator is
killed towards
the end - a Video Diary on a camcorder, or some sort of video surveillance
could
replace the usual pen and paper log entries. This also rids us of the notion
of; why the
narrator is writing down how he is about to be torn to bits, rather than
boarding up the
doors and cowering under a desk clutching a shotgun. It could also be
effective in that
you only see the monster in its full terror just before it eats the camera -
or whatever

StoOdin101

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Jul 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/10/98
to
>In which case a Shoggoth would look supremely scary on film.
>It can't be a just a big geletin dessert, like 'THE BLOB', but a truly
>Lovecratian
>depictation with a mass of continually altering black protoplasmic bubbles

BLACK! How many Shoggoth images have you seen that miss the point that
Shoggoths are BLACK?
Actually the remake of The Blob, though failing to make its monster black, had
a pretty good approximation of a Shoggoth's general construction. It never
burst forth in eyes and claws like a good SHoggoth should, though.


"Thereafter I heard Zann every night, and although he kept me awake, I was
haunted by the weirdness of his music." --- H.P. Lovecraft, _The Music of Erich
Zann_


Mike Kew

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Jul 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/10/98
to
Azrael <john....@virgin.net*nospam> wrote

>Technology and HPL could make a good marriage. Although there is the problem
>it could devolve into a big techno-fest that most sci-fi today tends to bear
>towards.
>Imagine how less effective "The Dunwich Horror" would be if a bunch of
>Scientists
>from Miskatonic U. arrived in Dunwich with bazookas, flame-throwers, and
>several
>charges of Grade-A explosives.

That's precisely what happens in some CoC campaigns I've seen - it's
actually quite fun, 'cos these things are almost completely ineffective.
You can't blow up Fear.

--
Mike Kew

Susan Katz

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Jul 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/11/98
to
StoOdin101 (stood...@aol.com) wrote:
: BLACK! How many Shoggoth images have you seen that miss the point that

: Shoggoths are BLACK?
: Actually the remake of The Blob, though failing to make its monster black, had
: a pretty good approximation of a Shoggoth's general construction. It never
: burst forth in eyes and claws like a good SHoggoth should, though.

The creature in DEAN KOONTZ'S PHANTOMS was black and amorphous and slimy
and all-in-all pretty nifty. :)

- Demian -
ka...@netaxs.com


C. S. Gates

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Jul 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/12/98
to
The "thing" from the movie IN THE MOUTH OF MADNESS toward the end of the
film that chases the lead charcter down the tunnel/passageway to his point
of final escape, this thing appears to have captured the idea very well. I
realize its not black but otherwise is seems kinda fitting? It is hard to
catch a good look at it with the flashing lights etc., but with slow-mo on a
laserdisc you can get a good look!

C

see sig to reply

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to
On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:56:15 -0800, ga...@antispam.azstarnet.com (g a t
z) wrote:

>One of the things I was struck by after watching The X Files Movie was that
>it was a good example of how Lovecraftian horror could be pulled off on
>film. A whole lot of revelations without any resolutions.

Yow, except that the producers chasing the money can count on
hordes of X-Files fans going to see a cinematic continuation of a TV
series which is well known enough that a sizeable chunk of the
populace is guaranteed to line up at the box office. That doesn't
apply to Lovecraft's work. The Hollywood guys looking at the bottom
line will look at the target audience, and if it's too small to
generate a return on their investment, they'll want to add enough
explosions and nekkid chicks to widen its demographic appeal. No
audience = no revenue = no movie.

I still remember going to see 2001 with a friend who thought
the movie was a waste of time because he hadn't read the book and
there wasn't enough action and dialogue to clue him in.

Luke Slaughter

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Azrael wrote:

> Technology and HPL could make a good marriage. Although there is the problem
> it could devolve into a big techno-fest that most sci-fi today tends to bear
> towards.
> Imagine how less effective "The Dunwich Horror" would be if a bunch of
> Scientists
> from Miskatonic U. arrived in Dunwich with bazookas, flame-throwers, and
> several
> charges of Grade-A explosives.

Damn straight. The whole point of the horror in the books was that the
people got to do the best they possibly could - and it was pitifully
inadequate. Now, given the above case of weaponry overkill (pardon the
pun) that SHOULD NOT be in the hands of scholars. They would be
half-blind anyway from the reading in dim rooms, and long nights spent by
a single lamp, patiently combing through many old, dusty tomes, in the
hope of discovering a single fact to help them understand what the hell is
going on. They shouldn't be as good with a pistol at 30 meters as a
soldier, who has been trained extensively for years, with an automatic
weapon with attached grenade launcher, reddot laser sight, telescopic IR
night vision and flamethrower built into the barrel.
By the same token, the trained soldiers should not be useless
drones, who fire, miss and are eaten/killed horribly by the unseen horror.
They are trained for god's sake. It would be a bad movie if the monster
gets cut down by a nameless extra, but bad also if it butchers an entire
squad easily in seconds, and yet can't kill a hero in 90 minutes. It does
not suspend disbelief. The soldiers should lose the point man [thats
what he's there for, after all :)] and some others. But the squad should
get away, bleeding, babbling of "monsters in the dark, came and took
Johnsen, just took him dark, johnsen claws, dark gone eyes..."

Of course a pair of soldiers or a lone one deserves to die. Hah, load of
crap them stories *spit*....

>
> However, in some cases, especially in those storys where the narrator is
> killed towards
> the end - a Video Diary on a camcorder, or some sort of video surveillance
> could
> replace the usual pen and paper log entries. This also rids us of the notion
> of; why the
> narrator is writing down how he is about to be torn to bits, rather than
> boarding up the
> doors and cowering under a desk clutching a shotgun. It could also be
> effective in that
> you only see the monster in its full terror just before it eats the camera -
> or whatever

What about having the main character as a Technomancer? Ie a guy
who believe in technology like some believe in God? ( This makes an
interesting post, but not for now) There is no trouble that Science and
Technology cannot overcome. All the locked doors and secrets of the
Universe are opened by the Power Of Science and Technology. Then he hits
Mythos, and he's in the SHIT!!!

And my other idea of a movie would be filmed entirely from a
characters POV, like peripherial vision is blurry and indistinct. When
frightened, the vision swings quickly, so we only see blurs of whats in
front of him/her. Dunno. Just an idea. See what y'all think

cyas

"Who is this Woderic, to whom you wefer?"
"He's a wobber!" "And a wapist!" "And a pickpocket!" [shut up!]

- Ponchus Pilate Decrees "Wome is your fwiend"

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to
Mr. Slaughter,

Actually, your post regarding scholars and soldiers (Soon to be released
by TSR) reminded me of the movie, "Stargate". I always felt that the
interplay between those two characters could have really been developed
a little better. Of course, this is Hollywood we're talking about here.

Regards,

D.E. Kesler

Gregory Loren Hansen

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.980713...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>,
Luke Slaughter <a...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote:

>Damn straight. The whole point of the horror in the books was that the
>people got to do the best they possibly could - and it was pitifully
>inadequate. Now, given the above case of weaponry overkill (pardon the
>pun) that SHOULD NOT be in the hands of scholars. They would be

You must not know the same scholars that I know.

>going on. They shouldn't be as good with a pistol at 30 meters as a
>soldier, who has been trained extensively for years, with an automatic
>weapon with attached grenade launcher, reddot laser sight, telescopic IR
>night vision and flamethrower built into the barrel.

The scholarly gun nut is likely better than the soldier with a pistol,
since soldiers don't have a lot of use for pistols. But the soldier and
his rifle are really good friends.

> By the same token, the trained soldiers should not be useless
>drones, who fire, miss and are eaten/killed horribly by the unseen horror.
>They are trained for god's sake. It would be a bad movie if the monster
>gets cut down by a nameless extra, but bad also if it butchers an entire
>squad easily in seconds, and yet can't kill a hero in 90 minutes. It does
>not suspend disbelief. The soldiers should lose the point man [thats

I have to agree. Soldiers tend to be a bit tougher than your average
citizen, in addition to being good with a gun and having tactical sense.
It's easy to think of them as drones when they're lined up in uniform
following orders, but every single one of them has uncommon skills and
training, plus a survival instinct. And a personality.

I thought the movie Aliens handled it very well.

> What about having the main character as a Technomancer? Ie a guy
>who believe in technology like some believe in God? ( This makes an
>interesting post, but not for now) There is no trouble that Science and
>Technology cannot overcome. All the locked doors and secrets of the
>Universe are opened by the Power Of Science and Technology.

That sounds like the boundless optimism of the 19th century. Read Jules
Verne or Sherlock Holmes, that's exactly the impression I get.

>Then he hits Mythos, and he's in the SHIT!!!

If done well, that could be really cool.

--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha


Yog_S...@my-dejanews.com

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to

> By the same token, the trained soldiers should not be useless
> drones, who fire, miss and are eaten/killed horribly by the unseen horror.
> They are trained for god's sake. It would be a bad movie if the monster
> gets cut down by a nameless extra, but bad also if it butchers an entire
> squad easily in seconds, and yet can't kill a hero in 90 minutes.

Why not wipe out a squad of soldiers in seconds? I would love to see a buch
of soldiers camped out near those strange wells in Australia, and get
obliterated by invisible, tittering opponents.

With all of these disaster movies coming out, a nice shot of a city being
eaten by Cthonians or nuked by Polyps would be neat. Hollywood might be
partial to a Dhole munching on L.A. or a color landing in Moscow. Nukes are
useless against foes that spend most of their time on Yuggoth or miles
underground, and woe to any aircraft or armor that tries to take on anything
nasty. (Hounds of Tindalos eating tank crews from the inside of the tank
would be cool.)

Hollywood does have the ability to turn good ideas into bad movies, however.
I am afraid of "Godzilla vs. Cthulhu" or something similar.

Christophe Thill

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Jul 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/13/98
to
Comme l'écrivait Luke Slaughter <a...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> :

> By the same token, the trained soldiers should not be useless
>drones, who fire, miss and are eaten/killed horribly by the unseen horror.
>They are trained for god's sake. It would be a bad movie if the monster
>gets cut down by a nameless extra, but bad also if it butchers an entire
>squad easily in seconds, and yet can't kill a hero in 90 minutes.

I suggest you forward this interesting post to the guy(s) who wrote
the script of "Starship Troopers". I guess they've never come across
this sort of opinion in all their lifes.


Christophe Thill - Paris, France (c_t...@worldnet.fr)

ArKa/D/ia! Homepage: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/
HP Lovecraft page: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/hpl/
"The King in Yellow": http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/chambers/
DAIKAIJU! Les monstres japonais: http://www.worldnet.fr/~c_thill/kaiju/

Donovan K. Loucks

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Jul 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/15/98
to
In an earlier message, Steven Marc Harris <kay...@aol.com> had claimed
that the word "Mi-go" had its origin in the Tibetan name for the Yeti,
"metoh-kangmi". I was reading through S.T. Joshi's annotated version of
_At the Mountains of Madness_ and came across this reference:

The Mi-Go, Yeti, or Abominable Snowmen are a real folk myth in Nepal
and Tibet. They are supposed to be huge human beings who dwell at the
snowline in the Himalayas; their snowprints have purportedly been seen,
but these are probably the prints of bears. The term _Mi-Go_ is a
Tibetan compound: _mi_, "man," and _go_ (or _gyo_), "swift," hence,
"fast-moving manlike creature."

Unfortunately, neither Mr. Harris nor Mr. Joshi cite references for their
comments, so I have no way of assessing their correctness. However, Mr.
Harris' skill at hoaxing should be taken into account...

-------------------
Donovan K. Loucks <webm...@hplovecraft.com>
The H.P. Lovecraft Archive: http://www.hplovecraft.com
The alt.horror.cthulhu FAQ: ftp://ftp.primenet.com/users/d/dloucks/ahc

Christophe Thill

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Jul 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/15/98
to
Comme l'écrivait "Donovan K. Loucks" <webm...@hplovecraft.com> :

>In an earlier message, Steven Marc Harris <kay...@aol.com> had claimed
>that the word "Mi-go" had its origin in the Tibetan name for the Yeti,
>"metoh-kangmi". I was reading through S.T. Joshi's annotated version of

>_At the Mountains of Madness_ and came across this reference: [...]

The real question, I think, is not what's the real meaning of Mi-Go",
but "where did Lovecraft find this name". As a hypothesis, I can
suggest one of his favourite books, Lewis Spence's encyclopedia. Can
anyone confirm?

D. E. Kesler

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Jul 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/16/98
to
Christophe Thill wrote:

>
> The real question, I think, is not what's the real meaning of Mi-Go",
> but "where did Lovecraft find this name". As a hypothesis, I can
> suggest one of his favourite books, Lewis Spence's encyclopedia. Can
> anyone confirm?
>
> Christophe Thill - Paris, France (c_t...@worldnet.fr)

Hello Mr. Thill,

I thought the same thing. Unfortunately, There is nothing under the
_Tibet_ entry and there is no _Yeti_ entry. I also poked around in a
few other entries but turned up nothing relevant.

So unless someone can think of some obscure entry that I may have
overlooked, I think we can safely say that the word Mi-Go did not come
from Lewis Spence.

Regards and Best Wishes,
Donald Eric Kesler

Mr.Goodbytes

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Jul 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/17/98
to

Well, we don't have several thousand Mi-Go running around killing shit. If
they had only one to deal with, the soldiers would win, even if thye got a
little crazy.

Aurictouch

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Jul 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/18/98
to
In article <199807062314...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, kay...@aol.com
(KAYVEN) writes:

> Here is an interesting account from _The Story of Everest_ (Boston, 1927,
>pp.110-12) by Captain John Noel....
>
> "They lived high up on Everest, and at times came down a wrought havoc in
>the villages... One must speak of them with great respect, otherwise they
>will
>bring bad luck and perhaps even come down and raid and kill, because they are
>known to kill men, carry off women, and to bite the necks of yaks and drink
>their blood. The ordinary Tibetan peasant.... tells of their strange rovings
>in the snow, of the long hair which falls over their eyes, so that if you
>are
>chased by a Sukpa (another native word for the Yeti) you must run downhill;
>then the long hair will get into his eyes and you can escape from him... The
>King of the Sukpas is supposed to live on the very top of Everest, whence he
>can look down upon the world below, and choose upon which herd of grazing
>yaks
>he will decend. Yak-herds say that the Sukpa can jump by huge bounds at a
>time; that he is much taller than the tallest man; and that he has a hard
>tail
>upon which he can sit. The men he kills he will not eat. He just bites off
>the tips of their fingers, toes and noses, and leaves them."

Y'know, reading this, I started thinking "Windego."

Midas

Message has been deleted

Mr. Dadvid

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May 17, 2020, 3:25:11 PM5/17/20
to
Of all stories of wizards and monsters, perhaps the most famous and frightening are found in the in-between world. One of the most evil wizards therein tells of his creation and perfection of the most terrifying of creatures. You may view this tale as it is preserved within a tube in the vault of one SGLOTR. What does he name them, just before asking whom they serve? Take that name down, then keep it, for it will take you where you need to go.

Then look down.

Mr. Dadvid

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May 17, 2020, 3:41:18 PM5/17/20
to

blackw...@gmail.com

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May 20, 2020, 2:01:55 AM5/20/20
to
I wouldn't take anything S.T. Joshi says too seriously... Like a grain of salt.

Pinku Basudei

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May 21, 2020, 2:24:51 AM5/21/20
to
On Fri, 15 May 2020 14:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
"Mr. Dadvid" <dnta.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a test post
>

Received.

--

/ Pinku
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