Azathoth comparison.
Sunbearer
Does Cthulhu compare to Ahriman or Demiurge?
Or would you compare Azathoth to Ahriman or Demiurge?
Who is Cthulhu a priest/avatar of Azathoth, Yog-sothoth, or Nyarlathotep?
Would you say Yog-Sothoth rules all chaos with Azathoth?
And Nyarlethothep is the servant of Azathoth and Yog-sothoth combined?
You input is requested
-Greyson
Edward Parsons
difficult to define. Its likely that Lovecraft sneaked in the idea of the
idiot chaos from Theosophist (spelling?) works (none of which i've read, so
your all going to prove me wrong).
Cthulhu is (at least to my mind) a complete seperate entity. Cthulhu is an
Alien, i.e. he is a material creature (differnt type of mattet to what we're
used to, but material all the same). The others are "Gods" i.e. non coporeal
entities of infinite potential. Cthulhu is, I think, not of infinite
potential, just very very great.
The Sussex Manuscript by Fred Pelton (I think) list cthulhu as an avatar of
old Nyarly, but I doubt this is Cthulhu Canon.
Yog soggoth rules alongside azathoth, I think. I'm not sure.
I think the Nyarly servant thing is correct.
"Sunbearer" <sunb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a124904.02021...@posting.google.com...
d
>I am interested if anyone has a view on these question.
>
>Does Cthulhu compare to Ahriman or Demiurge?
i wdn't think so. cert not the Demiurge, & there's no hint that he is a) a
demonic force or b) in opposition to another power (as such; certainly in some
stories the Cthulhoid race is at war w/ others).
essentially, Cthulhu is an alien lifeform. one mistaken for a God, but
nonetheless an alien.
>Or would you compare Azathoth to Ahriman or Demiurge?
sortsa the same as b) above. Azathoth is all there is, apparently. there's
no-one It cd be the demiurge of (to/thru/whatever), nor any opposing force.
Azathoth is not even good or evil. It is everything, essentially, or inanycase,
the source thereof.
>Who is Cthulhu a priest/avatar of Azathoth, Yog-sothoth, or Nyarlathotep?
i don't think it's ever stated. at least, not in Lovecraft. altho, maybe one of
his (Lovecraft's) unspecified 'Old Ones'. can't recall for certain.
>Would you say Yog-Sothoth rules all chaos with Azathoth?
again, i don't recall it's ever stated in Lovecraft.
my own odd theory is: Azathoth is the source of all (a kind of Big Bang w/
demonic qualities, that sortsa still exists) & Yog-Sothoth is essentially the
fabric of the Universe (albeit one w/ the ability to manifest itself). again,
that's just my interpretation.
i think all Lovecraft states, as far as 'ruling', is that 'past, present,
future, all are one in _Yog-Sothoth_'. which is presumably the source from
which i extrapolated 'fabric of the Universe'.
>And Nyarlethothep is the servant of Azathoth and Yog-sothoth combined?
as usual, in Lovecraft, i think it's always Azathoth Nyarlathotep is associated
w/.
>You input is requested
>-Greyson
cold & strange & dead inside
Sunbearer
> I reckon Azathoth is closer to the Demiurge...But the Demiurge is very
> difficult to define. Its likely that Lovecraft sneaked in the idea of the
> idiot chaos from Theosophist (spelling?) works (none of which i've read, so
> your all going to prove me wrong).
Were you pointing towards Theosophical?
I was told that Azathoth does not compare to Demiurge or Ahriman
because: "Azathoth is a cosmic being, the other two are earthbound."
What do you think of that quote?
> Cthulhu is (at least to my mind) a complete seperate entity. Cthulhu is an
> Alien, i.e. he is a material creature (differnt type of mattet to what we're
> used to, but material all the same). The others are "Gods" i.e. non coporeal
> entities of infinite potential. Cthulhu is, I think, not of infinite
> potential, just very very great.
That makes sense.
Thanks for your input.
-Greyson
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Edward Parsons
It is possible, I suppose.
After some consideration, I think Azathoth is closest to the Gnostic Godhead
(read: Infinite energy, non coporeal power, source of all things).
Maybe Yog-Soggoth would make a Demiurge, creator of the material realm?
"Sunbearer" <sunb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a124904.02021...@posting.google.com...
Arinn Dembo
"d" wrote:
> essentially, Cthulhu is an alien lifeform. one mistaken for a God, but
> nonetheless an alien.
I agree with this interpretation; I've always understood Cthulhu to have
been the priest-king of an alien enclave, a colony which established itself
on earth millions of years ago. For reasons unknown and unknowable, the
city that this ancient race built was destroyed, and its denizens were all
killed--including Cthulhu.
Nonetheless, these alien beings were never alive in the limited sense that
we humans are. Cthulhu, although dead, is still semi-conscious and awaiting
revival in the temple/throneroom of the city His people built long ago. And
His dreams are powerful emanations which have always profoundly affected the
more sensitive members of the lesser races which populate the planet.
There's evidence that the Deep Ones venerate Him and many human cultures
have intuited the existence of a sea demon or deity very much like him:
Leviathan, the Midgard Serpent, etc.. There are also many myths and legends
which clumsily recount the fall of Old R'lyeh...in Greece, for example,
Plato's popular tale of Atlantis is also accompanied by the lesser-known
story of the Telkhines, who were cast into the depths by Zeus.
http://www.theoi.com/Pontos/Telkhines.html
> >Or would you compare Azathoth to Ahriman or Demiurge?
Just out of curiosity--are we talking about the Platonic Demiurge, the
Gnostic Demiurge, or the Jungian Demiurge here?
> Azathoth is not even good or evil. It is everything, essentially, or
inanycase,
> the source thereof.
Recent discoveries in physics suggest a possible alternative explanation of
what the mystic's vision of "Azathoth" may have been. Nowadays, it is not
only considered possible but extremely likely that all the galaxies in the
universe, including the Milky Way, have a super-massive black hole at the
center.
Consider it: a massive, whirling, inescapable maw of singularity at the
heart of the galaxy, all-devouring and eternal, orbited by millions of
exploding suns. There's your blind idiot Lord of the Dance.
>Would you say Yog-Sothoth rules all chaos with Azathoth?
In reality, Yog-Sothoth was almost certainly intended to be a parody of the
Judeo-Christian Yahweh. Accordingly, whatever attributes of cosmic power
might ordinarily be attributed to the JudeoChristian God may be applied to
Yog, so long as it is understood that Yog is in no wise the friend,
benefactor or author of humankind.
> Yog-Sothoth is essentially the
> fabric of the Universe (albeit one w/ the ability to manifest itself).
again,
> that's just my interpretation.
It is my interpretation as well, although I would argue that Yog-Sothoth is
the fabric of a multi-verse rather than a universe. Our own universe,
near-infinite from our perspective, is in fact only one cell of
Yog-Sothoth's massive body. With the proper invocations and equipment, it
is possible to travel through the bloodstream of Yog-Sothoth to other
realities, planes of existence ruled by other physical laws--where pi is a
different number, for example.
> >And Nyarlethothep is the servant of Azathoth and Yog-sothoth combined?
Nyarlethotep is a being of god-like power which has chosen, for reasons of
its own, to make the human race its plaything. He/She/It has taken myriad
forms over the course of millennia and plays a number of games with
humans--most of which seem to involve the seduction of evil. If anything,
the Black Man is your Jungian Demiurge on two legs. Who or what the Big N
works for is anyone's guess; sometimes one suspects that He works for no one
and nothing but His own wry amusement.
Just my two cents, of course.
--Arinn Dembo
Jordan SC
I'd imagine that Ialdabaoth would be a good candidate for Azathoth. Both are
blind, idiot deities. Both created the universe. Both swim in unformed chaos.
Azathoth, like the Old Testament deity, tends to randomly incinerate its
followers.
Yog-Sothoth, on the other hand, would be closer to the Pleroma. Both of them
are outside of this universe and not of this universe. Both are trying to get
into this universe (one to save mankind and the other for reasons unknown).
Both have sent emissaries (Jesus & the Serpent & so on for Pleroma... the
Dunwich Horror & Co. for Yog-Sothoth). Both are more or less infinite and more
or less incomprensible. Both are represented by spheres (concentric for one
and a congerie for the other).
The Mythos, however, is not compatible with the moral dualism implicit with
Ahriman. HOWEVER, I think Nyarlathotep would be the best candidate for just
about any diabolical entity. Especially one so concerned with lies (druj).
Well, any diabolical entity that wasn't bound up in fertility (in which case,
it'd be ole Shubbie).
That being said, I'm leery of any attempt to categorize & organize or associate
any mythos deity with a real-world one. Unless, maybe, you're trying to throw
the references into a short story or scenario (ia ia Abraxas ia ia).
Edward Parsons
Jordan SC's is the best interpertation i've heard yet. Go with it.
Nyarly seems to be some sort special case. Out of all the assorted mythosian
beasties he seems the closest to human in his thoughts and motive. He bears
strong resemblance to the old Trickster gods, Loki being the Norse example.
Personally, I wouldn't include him as a true part of the mythos, especially
since his largest appearence is in the very un-mythosian dream quest of the
unknown kadath.
"Jordan SC" <jord...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020216134543...@mb-md.aol.com...
Sunbearer
> I'd imagine that Ialdabaoth would be a good candidate for Azathoth. Both are
> blind, idiot deities. Both created the universe. Both swim in unformed chaos.
> Azathoth, like the Old Testament deity, tends to randomly incinerate its
> followers.
But Ialdabaoth was the blind Demiurge. Making azathoth a semi-limted
physical entity correct? The earth, for the Gnostics, was a
prison-planet ruled by an evil tyrant. The soul would continue to
reincarnate in this insufferable vale of tears until the power of
Ialdabaoth and his evil angels (the "archons" which encircle the
earth) could be broken.
Were all archons evil or just considered evil by the gnostics? (Whats
evil though right?)
> Yog-Sothoth, on the other hand, would be closer to the Pleroma. Both of them
> are outside of this universe and not of this universe. Both are trying to get
> into this universe (one to save mankind and the other for reasons unknown).
> Both have sent emissaries (Jesus & the Serpent & so on for Pleroma... the
> Dunwich Horror & Co. for Yog-Sothoth). Both are more or less infinite and more
> or less incomprensible. Both are represented by spheres (concentric for one
> and a congerie for the other).
Ok I get and agree with this.
Thanks for your guys input.
-Greyson
Dan Clore
> jord...@aol.com (Jordan SC) wrote in message news:<20020216134543...@mb-md.aol.com>...
> Were all archons evil or just considered evil by the gnostics? (Whats
> evil though right?)
That night the men of Teloth lodged the stranger in a
stable, and in the morning an archon came to him and told
him to go to the shop of Athok the cobbler, and be
apprenticed to him.
H.P. Lovecraft, "The Quest of Iranon"
"All in Teloth must toil," replied the archon, "for that is
the law."
H.P. Lovecraft, "The Quest of Iranon"
I don't know about you, but telling people that they have to
work seems pretty evil to me.
--
Dan Clore
mailto:cl...@columbia-center.org
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Edward Parsons
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3C6FD2D8...@columbia-center.org...
Jordan SC
Who's to say that Azathoth _isn't_ a physical entity, or even a limited one?
He's called the "Daemon" Sultan, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily a
spirit. And there's no way of knowing just how powerful Azathoth is outside
the mundane realm.
Were all the Archons evil? According to one legend, Sabaoth, a dragon-headed
Archon, heard Sophia's message and went over to Pleroma.