Seiko Accuracy
Bob Swinney
Can someone tell me if this watch has a trimmer capacitor for adjustment of
the base oscillator. If it does, I am tempted to open it and tweak it
rather than send it to Seiko under the warranty.
Thank you,
Bob Swinney
dAz
need a movement number, the first part of the model number on the case
back something like 43xx-2xxx
most likely it would not have a trimmer, most new quartz movements don't
use them anymore because of stability problems, also the rate is adjusted
in one of two ways these days, set at the factory once and cannot be
adjusted afterwards, or there is an eprom chip which can only be
adjusted with a special(read expensive) timer.
also you do know if YOU open the watch you void the warrantee, also you
cannot be sure the watch is still water resistant afterwards.
personally I cannot see why you could be bothered, so the watch gains or
loses a few seconds a week, big deal
Bob Swinney
7N42-7D58 HR2" and on the case "Movement Japan 7N42-7C00 A4".
Bob Swinney
"dAz" <da...@nonspam-zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fe548b8$0$18390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Jack Denver
time is it keeping? RU sure it just doesn't need a battery? If it's under
warranty, I'd definitely let Seiko deal with it.
"Bob Swinney" <jud...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vD8Fb.414156$Dw6.1280276@attbi_s02...
Bob Swinney
it is now doing. That is why I wanted to know if I could "tweak" it a bit
if there was a trimmer on the base oscillator. It should not need a
battery, it was "new" 3 months ago. This watch is identical to the first
one I bought last Christmas from a department store. The original one ran
OK (-5 sec/month) before it deteriorated to -30 sec/month or so. At that
time the battery was tested OK by a shop that asked $40 to "clean" it. I
returned it to the department store and exercised their 1 year warranty to
obtain a replacement. I suppose the new one is also warranted for one year
by the store.
Bob Swinney
"Jack Denver" <nunu...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:p92dnZjptcj...@comcast.com...
dAz
> Thanks "daz". Here are the numbers: On the dial it says, "Mov't JAPAN
> 7N42-7D58 HR2" and on the case "Movement Japan 7N42-7C00 A4".
ok its a Seiko 7N42, it has no adjustment for the regulation
see the service manual
http://service.seiko.com.au/Service2/tg/data/7N42C&7N43C.pdf
Bob Swinney
Bob Swinney
Thanks again. The service manual makes it pretty clear there is no
adjustment. Too bad. It seems there should be more accuracy built in to a
watch of this type.
Bob Swinney
"dAz" <da...@nonspam-zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fe61dab$0$18694$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
John Rowland
>
> Sorry, I am concerned the watch can keep
> better time than the -20 sec/month it is now doing.
It's out of spec within the warranty period, so just return it.
Maybe the next watch you buy should be a radio-controlled one.
--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
Bob Swinney
Yeah! The RC clocks and "watches" are really nice. I have one of the
clocks. Matter of fact, I have been tuning to WWV since it wasn't even
cool - like about 40 years or so. I appreciate the intricacies and
inaccuracies of mechanical timekeeping compared to the "radio
clock". I am a wannabe clock maker, of sorts. I have used small (and
large) machine tools for years. One of my prized possessions is the W.R.
Smith tool rest for my Sherline lathe.
Bob Swinney
"John Rowland" <jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bs6ccn$ejp$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Veeto
This is a safety tolerance given by factory. Most modern watches are fitted
with programmable divider and nothing you can do. The older quartz watches
were fitted with trimmer which you may turn but without special timing
machines you could make only worse. Realize, we are talking about +/- half
second a day. How you are going to see this? How really your watch is
running? How many second per week or per month?
Never open any watch if you are not qualify to do this. Even a smallest
piece of dirt from your case could stop your watch for ever.
Other thing is coming to mine is if you open a case without damaging
delicate movement you may be very disappointed to see in your "man's" watch
a lady movement. The movement caliber is printed on the case as a first four
digits group of alpha-numerical number of 8 digits number.
Veeto
"Bob Swinney" <jud...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vD8Fb.414156$Dw6.1280276@attbi_s02...
Jack Denver
production Casio? And if anyone knows, does this mean that all (most, some)
current Casios have adjustable trimmers, unlike most modern quartz?
"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:bs98sb$ab6$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
> "Veeto" <chron...@cox-spam.net> writes:
>
> >Please understand that +/-15 second a months contain also zero per month.
>
> >This is a safety tolerance given by factory. Most modern watches are
fitted
> >with programmable divider and nothing you can do. The older quartz
watches
> >were fitted with trimmer which you may turn but without special timing
> >machines you could make only worse.
>
> You don't need special timing machines, you just need enough patience
> to be able to wait long enough between adjustments to see how much
> your watch is gaining or losing.
>
> >Realize, we are talking about +/- half
> >second a day. How you are going to see this?
>
> No problem, just wait for a week.
>
> It took me about 4 adjustments over a period of about 6 weeks to
> adjust my Casio from gaining a few secs a day to gaining a bit less
> than a second a week. The adjustment was very finical, however, and
> required a steady hand and a magnifying glass to do proportional
> adjustment rather than hit and miss trial and error, i.e., you need to
> be happy with watch repair dexterity to try it.
>
> >Never open any watch if you are not qualify to do this. Even a smallest
> >piece of dirt from your case could stop your watch for ever.
>
> Only true of those old-fashioned sensitive mechanical watches. I lost
> one of my case screws while doing the adjustments, however. When I
> wrote to Casio they sent me by reply a pack of case screws free. Nice
> customer service!
>
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
> IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
>
John Rowland
>
> And if anyone knows, does this mean that
> all (most, some) current Casios have
> adjustable trimmers, unlike most modern quartz?
Mine does: Casio trimmed it for me under warranty. I don't think this module
is in current production, but it must have been introduced within the last
four years because the year can only be set back as far as 2000.
dAz
> It took me about 4 adjustments over a period of about 6 weeks to adjust
> my Casio from gaining a few secs a day to gaining a bit less than a
> second a week. The adjustment was very finical, however, and required a
> steady hand and a magnifying glass to do proportional adjustment rather
> than hit and miss trial and error, i.e., you need to be happy with watch
> repair dexterity to try it.
well Casio must be an exception to still use trimmers, the swiss and other
Japanese companies don't use them anymore, main reason is cost, but also
trimmers are affected by moisture, changes in humidity levels can affect
the rate.
trimmers can be damaged if someone is a bit heavy handed and puts a little
too much pressure during the adjustment and cracks the ceramic subplate.
in most new quartz movements regulation is done by cutting special tracks
coming from the divider circuit, this is permanent as in the Seiko 7N42
movement in Bob's watch.
otherwise an EEPROM is used to store the settings and can only be wiped
and rewritten by a special quartz timer
>>Never open any watch if you are not qualify to do this. Even a smallest
>>piece of dirt from your case could stop your watch for ever.
>
> Only true of those old-fashioned sensitive mechanical watches. I lost
> one of my case screws while doing the adjustments, however. When I wrote
> to Casio they sent me by reply a pack of case screws free. Nice customer
> service!
>
>
wrong, only a digital watch could put up with a bit of dirt inside, I have
had mechanical watches in the workshop that so filthy you have to wonder
how they still can run, but they do and done so for years in some cases
quartz analogue on the other hand, one speck of dirt, specially if its
magnetic will find its way to the rotor and stop the watch dead.
there is one plus side to this, before quartz watches came on the market a
lot of standard, dress and ladies watches had cases that were barely
dustproof let alone waterresistant, because quartz watches are more
sensitive to dirt the manufactures had to come up with better cases to
keep the crap out, they even had to start using snapon backs instead of
screw-on backs because no matter how well the case is made there is
always a risk of case metal flaking off the thread and getting into the
movement
Walter Spector
>
> in most new quartz movements regulation is done by cutting special tracks
> coming from the divider circuit, this is permanent as in the Seiko 7N42
> movement in Bob's watch.
>
> otherwise an EEPROM is used to store the settings and can only be wiped
> and rewritten by a special quartz timer
Some radio-synched watches automatically 'trim' the time based on successive
readings. Both of my Arcon-made watches have this feature. However I find
it interesting when one or both have not resynched for some time, like a week or
two, they do drift slightly apart. Still, it is on the order of maybe a second
a week or less - so is quite acceptible to me.
> >>Never open any watch if you are not qualify to do this. Even a smallest
> >>piece of dirt from your case could stop your watch for ever.
> >
> > Only true of those old-fashioned sensitive mechanical watches...
>
> wrong, only a digital watch could put up with a bit of dirt inside, I have
> had mechanical watches in the workshop that so filthy you have to wonder
> how they still can run, but they do and done so for years in some cases
>
> quartz analogue on the other hand, one speck of dirt, specially if its
> magnetic will find its way to the rotor and stop the watch dead.
The watchmaker that I use says the same thing as dAz. (And, of course he also
claims that when you let a 'mall guy' do a battery change, they don't clean
and check seals as good as he does - hastening any problems...)
Walt
-...-
Walt Spector
(w6ws at earthlink dot net)
Kent Betts
the user to adjust the divide. It is just a binary number stored in the
memory.
dAz
> dAz wrote:
>>
>> in most new quartz movements regulation is done by cutting special
>> tracks coming from the divider circuit, this is permanent as in the
>> Seiko 7N42 movement in Bob's watch.
>>
>> otherwise an EEPROM is used to store the settings and can only be wiped
>> and rewritten by a special quartz timer
>
> Some radio-synched watches automatically 'trim' the time based on
> successive readings. Both of my Arcon-made watches have this feature.
> However I find it interesting when one or both have not resynched for
> some time, like a week or two, they do drift slightly apart. Still, it
> is on the order of maybe a second a week or less - so is quite
> acceptible to me.
thats the best way to do it have it synced to an atomic clock, thats what
a little program does on my computer, corrects it from a internet atomic
clock standard, makes a note of the difference in rate and stores that
figure in a file, so even if I wasn't on the net for a couple of weeks
the program will use that figure to make sure the computer is close to to
the correct time.
AFAIK Australia does not have any radio time signals that can be used by
those watches, maybe one that uses GPS would work
>
>> >>Never open any watch if you are not qualify to do this. Even a
>> >>smallest piece of dirt from your case could stop your watch for ever.
>> >
>> > Only true of those old-fashioned sensitive mechanical watches...
>>
>> wrong, only a digital watch could put up with a bit of dirt inside, I
>> have had mechanical watches in the workshop that so filthy you have to
>> wonder how they still can run, but they do and done so for years in
>> some cases
>>
>> quartz analogue on the other hand, one speck of dirt, specially if its
>> magnetic will find its way to the rotor and stop the watch dead.
>
> The watchmaker that I use says the same thing as dAz. (And, of course
> he also claims that when you let a 'mall guy' do a battery change, they
> don't clean and check seals as good as he does - hastening any
> problems...)
hmmm, battery changers in malls, I am pretty sure that quite a few of
them are not watchmakers, one local fellow nearly stuffed up a nice
15year old Omega quartz, this particular watch uses a push button to set
the time, the dipstick has obviously never seen one, the movement and
dial sit in the case back, gasket goes around the dial and then the case
snaps over that, when I got the watch the customer could not set the
watch because the dial was crooked and not lining up with the push
button, the button had fallen out when the watch was opened, so after he
had changed the battery he could not figure out where the gasket went so
he just shoved in the back dropped the movement over it, put the case
together then jammed the button on from the outside.
the button goes in first from the inside, movement and dial next, gasket
around the dial then snap the case together, the push button also is used
to key into the movement to keep it straight.
I shudder to think how many watches are damaged by these bastards
Kent Betts
"Bob Swinney"
> I have been tuning to WWV since it wasn't even
> cool - like about 40 years or so.
Frank Conrad started in radio by listening to a gov't time service on the
radio. He went on to found KKDA, the first commerical radio station.
-------
MIAMI, Fla., Dec. 11, 1941--Dr. Frank Conrad, since 1921 assistant chief
engineer of the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company of
Pittsburgh, whose interest in wireless telegraphy led to the founding of
Station KDKA, pioneer broadcast station, died here at the age of 67.
His connection with radio dates back to 1912, when he put together a crude
receiving set which picked up time signals sent out at regular intervals by
the naval radio station in Washington.
After the war Dr. Conrad returned to his garage radio station and started
broadcasting two-hour phonograph recordings twice a week. These programs
gave the late Dr. Harry P. Davis the idea that regular broadcasts would be
the means of creating a new field for radio development. Mr Conrad and Dr
Harry P Davis joined their business interests and created Pittsburgh's radio
station KDKA.
Radio Broadcast's "Father"
Dr. Conrad, who was known as "the father of radio broadcasting," was born
May 4, 1874. He was an adept learner, soon astounding his older colleagues
with his ability, and by the time he was 23 had invented the round-type
electric meter for Westinghouse which is now in universal use.
J Shoemaker
Bob> "dAz", Thanks again. The service manual makes it pretty
Bob> clear there is no adjustment. Too bad. It seems there
Bob> should be more accuracy built in to a watch of this type.
[...]
If you're looking for accuracy, not counting the lame radio
controlled 'atomic' watches (1), your best bet would be a
Breitling SuperQuartz model, at +/- 15 sec. per year.
(1) I had a Casio G-Shock Atomic which, when I had to
take a trip that put me outside reception range, lost
well over 1 second per day (3 secs every 2 days).
Casio must have figured since it was going to update
every day that they didn't have to make /any/ attempt
at calibration, so that little bastard of a watch
would lose 54 minutes and 47 seconds per year at that
rate...
// J Shoemaker
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Carl West
> ...
> (1) I had a Casio G-Shock Atomic which, when I had to
> take a trip that put me outside reception range, lost
> well over 1 second per day (3 secs every 2 days).
> Casio must have figured since it was going to update
> every day that they didn't have to make /any/ attempt
> at calibration, so that little bastard of a watch
> would lose 54 minutes and 47 seconds per year at that
> rate...
Hmmm...
"(3 secs every 2 days)" = 1.5 sec/day
1.5 * 365 = 547 sec/year
547sec = 9.125 minutes
--
If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.
--
Carl West carlD...@comcast.net http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<
If I had six hours to chop down a tree,
I'd spend the first four sharpening the axe.
- Abraham Lincoln
Ernest
J Shoemaker
Carl> J Shoemaker wrote:
>> ... (1) I had a Casio G-Shock Atomic which, when I had to take
>> a trip that put me outside reception range, lost well over 1
>> second per day (3 secs every 2 days). Casio must have figured
>> since it was going to update every day that they didn't have to
>> make /any/ attempt at calibration, so that little bastard of a
>> watch would lose 54 minutes and 47 seconds per year at that
>> rate...
Carl> Hmmm...
Carl> "(3 secs every 2 days)" = 1.5 sec/day
Carl> 1.5 * 365 = 547 sec/year
Carl> 547sec = 9.125 minutes
Yup, I made an error on the above, although you did as well...
1 year is actually 365.2422 days.
1.5 * 1 year = 9.131 minutes = 547.9 sec.
At any rate, curiosities like the above not withstanding,
it's still an unacceptable inaccuracy.
// J Shoemaker
[...]