bergeon one dip keeps running away
ABC
disappear in a few weeks, no matter how hard I tighten the cap.
Any solution(no pun intended)?
ABC
d530
"ABC" <A...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:lo9916hr4hcuuafln...@4ax.com...
Don't know this specific solvent mixture but I guess it's extremly volatile.
I would check whether there is a gasket under the cap and store the bottle in the fridge.
ABC
No gasket. Just a translucent plastic lid.
Yes. It is volatile. I tried to use acetone in its place but they are
quite different.
ABC
dAz
it is probably toluene or Trichloroethylene something like it, it is the
volatility that is the reason it works the way it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene
yes it is that volatile that is evaporates while you have the lid off,
each time you use it, you lose a bit on the part you are cleaning and a
similar amount from the open jar, that is the reason it disappears, and
it is worst in warm weather.
I haven't used it for years, I rinse the balance complete in clean
shelite and use a hairdryer on warm to dry it out.
also don't use thinners, acetone, methylated spirits on balances and
pallets, the pallet stones and roller jewels are held in place with
shellac, and some hairsprings are held in place with a spot of glue,
thinners, acetone, etc, will DISSOLVE the shellac, where shelite, one
dip and waterless rinses will not.
metho (methylated spirits) is what I what use to remove the old shellac
when I am replacing the pallet stones or roller jewels.
I have seen it happen a number of times, pallet or roller has fallen out
and no shellac left.
dAz
Frank Adam
Tightening the cap hard just makes the plastic inner seal less
effective. I've had that stuff lay around for half a year or more here
with hardly any loss, because i only use it if a balance is really
grotty. As Daz, if a balance doesn't clean up well, generally i just
put it through the machine again, alone, with the heater cranked up,
so it'll get a quick dry when out of the rinse(shellite).
No, i'm not gay enough to use a hair dryer. ;-p
Anyway, don't know if Glad-wrap will dissolve, but if not, it may be a
viable option to wrap a double layer around the neck and opening,
before putting the cap on. Small price to pay if it works.
Another option is to buy a positive seal bottle and just transfer the
fluid into it. Even better quality perfume jars can be very well
sealing with a plug. I used one for storing hydrocloric acid, it had a
round glass wedge cap with a long soft seal that certainly made it
airtight.
Also, perhaps have a chat to your local chemist, they'll sure to have
an idea of what's available for storing this type of stuff. May even
have something they can sell you for peanuts.
--
Regards, Frank
d530
"dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv40aa$b60$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> it is probably toluene or Trichloroethylene something like it, it is the
> volatility that is the reason it works the way it does.
Definitely not toluene - flammable, and OneDip is not flammable.
Might be even something more volatile than TRI. May be trichloromethan (chloroform).
I wasn't kidding proposing to store OneDip in the refrigerator.
As I'm gas chromatographer I would simply analyse chemical composition of this solution and would buy it not from watchmakers supply stores (p_r_i_c_y) but from supplier of chemicals (much cheaper).
nonanon
This might soun d stupid, but what happens if you store it upside down?
The vapours are what escape the bottle seal, and if the vaopur is above a
solvent 'lock' they cannot escape.
d530
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:9c4c16dsa8oal7iar...@4ax.com...
> Also, perhaps have a chat to your local chemist, they'll sure to have
> an idea of what's available for storing this type of stuff. May even
> have something they can sell you for peanuts.
>
May I be your "local" chemist - the real one not the one selling medicines in drug store :-)
Every glass bottle with threaded plastic cap and PTFE gasked would be suitable to store volatile solvents provided you get the bottle from known supplier of chemical reagents (Merck, JTBaker etc).
They don't sell bottles itself but I always have empty bottles after consumption of solvents.
From my experience with very low boiling point solvents these bottles are excellent for storing such stuff.
Lowering temperature of storing is always advised.
d530
"nonanon" <no...@invalid.com> wrote in message news:O_rRn.20478$Ha1.19699@hurricane...
>
> This might soun d stupid, but what happens if you store it upside down?
>
Stupid ? - only for the first moment.
> The vapours are what escape the bottle seal, and if the vaopur is above a
> solvent 'lock' they cannot escape.
Vapour can't escape, but solvent can. However the speed of diffusion might be lower.
Hard to guess, need to try this method by interested person.
The capacity of the bottle should be always appropriate to the volume of stored solvent.
When you store small amount of volatile solvent in huge bottle it evaporates easily in the bottle forming vapour, which you will never condense to liquid again.
dAz
> "dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv40aa$b60$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> it is probably toluene or Trichloroethylene something like it, it is the
>> volatility that is the reason it works the way it does.
>
> Definitely not toluene - flammable, and OneDip is not flammable.
>
> Might be even something more volatile than TRI. May be trichloromethan (chloroform).
>
> I wasn't kidding proposing to store OneDip in the refrigerator.
agree, in an aircon'ed workshop it was not too bad, but in my non aircon
workshop in summer you could watch it disappear ;)
>
>
> As I'm gas chromatographer I would simply analyse chemical composition of this solution and would buy it not from watchmakers supply stores (p_r_i_c_y) but from supplier of chemicals (much cheaper).
yep, the local supplier sells it for AU$33 for 100mls?, haven't bought
it for quite some time,
for cleaning hairsprings I just have a small jar of clean shelite(white
spirit, x55) on the bench, I soak the balance complete for a few
minutes, lift it out shake off the excess and use a hairdryer on warm
and low speed to dry the part.
dAz
dAz
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:42:08 +0800, ABC <A...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> This is getting very expensive. Whenever I open a bottle, it will all
>> disappear in a few weeks, no matter how hard I tighten the cap.
>>
>> Any solution(no pun intended)?
>>
> Tightening the cap hard just makes the plastic inner seal less
> effective. I've had that stuff lay around for half a year or more here
> with hardly any loss, because i only use it if a balance is really
> grotty. As Daz, if a balance doesn't clean up well, generally i just
> put it through the machine again, alone, with the heater cranked up,
> so it'll get a quick dry when out of the rinse(shellite).
yep, if it is just a spot of oil on the hairspring, the shelite and
hairdryer is usually enough, any more than that it is in the cleaner.
> No, i'm not gay enough to use a hair dryer. ;-p
what?! just because I use a hairdryer and have bottles of nail polish on
the bench? :)
>
> Anyway, don't know if Glad-wrap will dissolve, but if not, it may be a
> viable option to wrap a double layer around the neck and opening,
> before putting the cap on. Small price to pay if it works.
works even better if you don't buy it in the first place, I just checked
on the price of One-Dip, $33!, bet it cost that much by the litre from a
chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
ABC
>also don't use thinners, acetone, methylated spirits on balances and
>pallets, the pallet stones and roller jewels are held in place with
>shellac, and some hairsprings are held in place with a spot of glue,
>thinners, acetone, etc, will DISSOLVE the shellac, where shelite, one
>dip and waterless rinses will not.
>dAz
That happened to my ETA 2824. Darn, it was my own Ball watch.
I ran out of One-Dip so I tried my luck with acetone.The little blob
of glue fixing the hairspring to the stud completely disappeared.
I had to mix one drop of glass epoxy and just managed to glue the
spring back in place. Thank goodness it was positioned true---by luck.
Had to wait 3 days before I was sure that the glue was completely set.
Never again.
One dip is now the most expensive consumable on my bench.
ABC
ABC
>This might soun d stupid, but what happens if you store it upside down?
I will try this when I have the cash next time
ABC
d530
OK guys, your "local" chemist found right storage bottle for One Dip.
It's La-Pha-Pack EPA screw neck vial with PP screw seal (buthyl/PTFE septum thickness 2.5 mm).
Inner diameter of the neck is 17 mm.
I guarantee good tightness for very volatile solvents - proven myself.
Available in amber or clear glass (clear better for intended use).
Part no 24 09 0839 (30 mL vial) + 24 15 1395 (screw cap) would be a good solution in my opinion.
http://www.tinyurl.pl?j5oruDdK
Available from chromatography suppliers throughout the world. Unfortunately 100 vials in pack, but may be used to store screws and other details.
d530
"dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv6ir7$1fh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Frank Adam wrote:
> what?! just because I use a hairdryer and have bottles of nail polish on
> the bench? :)
like your sense of humor :)
> if I knew what it was.
One Dip is not composed of hydrocarbons 'cause it's not flammable.
It may contain chlorinated hydrocarbons (TRI, PER, DCM etc) but they are at least harmful and some are toxic.
According to law (REACH in EU) every substance or preparation which is dangerous (toxic, harmful, irritant, flammable to name the few) has to be specially labeled - you know that orange square pictograms.
Additionaly supplier has to deliver MSDS ( material safety data sheet) for such substances or preparations to professional user.
If we have MSDS we know approx. chemical composition of preparation including chemical names of components and their % content.
Quick query of Bereon www did not returned MSDS for One Dip.
It means:
1) One Dip is not dangerous to health, ie. doesn't contain chlorinated hydrocarbons
(so what the hell it contains ?, doe's it smell characteristically to known solvents ? - I know, this question should be directed rather to experienced chemists)
or 2) Supplier placing One Dip on the market doesn't obey the law ommiting proper classification and labeling of this mixture
Are there any safety and health precautions on the bottle of One Dip ?
From my experience (remember I'm not a watchmaker, only ammateur) sonication in shellite is safe (no shellack disolvation) and efficient way of degreasing and cleaning watch parts. Instead of hairdryer (ha, ha I've gotten this device) I use hand dust blower (gently with hairsprings).
Nonny
It might be worth experimenting with automotive brake cleaner (not
brake fluid). It comes in a flammable and non flammable formula
in spray cans. I cannot say whether it will dissolve shellac or
not, but if you experiment and find it works, it would be an
inexpensive substitute. In my own shop, I use it for virtually
all cleaning of oils and oily dirt on machinery.
Nonny
--
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..
d530
"dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv6ir7$1fh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Frank Adam wrote:
> chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
>
OK guys, your "local" chemist has done homework without gas chromatography and a sample of One Dip.
It's perchloroethylene.
http://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/skus/899_F0668.pdf
Boiling point 121 degC - so not extremly volatile. Avoid breathing vapors.
With regard to REACH - the bottle is not properly labeled, let me stop here.
1L bottle pure - 27 polish zloty (pure grade - suitable for cleaning watch parts)
1L bottle pure for analysis - 270 polish zloty
d530
"Nonny" <Nu...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:yL6dnTddebBOcYrR...@giganews.com...
>
> It might be worth experimenting with automotive brake cleaner (not
> brake fluid). It comes in a flammable and non flammable formula
> in spray cans. I cannot say whether it will dissolve shellac or
> not, but if you experiment and find it works, it would be an
> inexpensive substitute. In my own shop, I use it for virtually
> all cleaning of oils and oily dirt on machinery.
>
> Nonny
Well, before experimenting I would study MSDS to find out it's chemical composition.
Then, bearing in mind properties of it's constituents I would consider whether shellac dissolution would be possible, whether mixture doesn't contain any "heavy" ingredients, whether it contained any corrosive substances etc.
Final step would be of course experimental.
Is spray can form of cleaner more convenient for hair spring cleaning than liquid in the bottle ? Not in my humble opinion.
Frank Adam
I've used it for a clock once. Works quite well, but then i've got
none left for when i do my brakes, so i'm sticking with shellite.
Mind you, as you say the spray leaves a bad taste in your mouth after
pointing it at a barrel. Blech.. ;-)
A more viable automotive product to look at would be Prepsol.
It is a pre-spray cleaner, comes in tins and is designed to remove oil
and acidic residue(ie: fingerprints) from the paint, leaving a nice
clean and dry surface for the next coat. Obviusly, such thing can not
be corrosive, nor would it have any oily content since paint tends to
have a wee issue with that.
As i recall it dries off about as fast as Onedip does, so it may be a
very similar substance.
--
Regards, Frank
Frank Adam
>yep, if it is just a spot of oil on the hairspring, the shelite and
>hairdryer is usually enough, any more than that it is in the cleaner.
>
>> No, i'm not gay enough to use a hair dryer. ;-p
>
>what?! just because I use a hairdryer and have bottles of nail polish on
>the bench? :)
>
Have to admit, i'm a bit partial to the pink cuticle enery sticks i
pinch from my wife.. :)
>>
>> Anyway, don't know if Glad-wrap will dissolve, but if not, it may be a
>> viable option to wrap a double layer around the neck and opening,
>> before putting the cap on. Small price to pay if it works.
>
>works even better if you don't buy it in the first place, I just checked
>on the price of One-Dip, $33!, bet it cost that much by the litre from a
>chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
>
Yep, bit steep for something that doesn't last long.
But then, Shellite is also fairly expensive and does escape fairly
quickly as well. I think i pay about 25 bucks for 4 litre and won't
last me longer than a couple of weeks. There was a time when i could
buy it from a bulk supplier in 30 litre drums for ~30 bucks, but
they've stopped producing it. Then again, back then a litre from the
hardware store was about 1.80 or something. In fact as i recall the
price of shellite seemed to have gone from reasonable to rip off price
overnight. You'd think it was petrol. :)
--
Regards, Frank
dAz
> "dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv6ir7$1fh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Frank Adam wrote:
>
>> chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
>>
>
> OK guys, your "local" chemist has done homework without gas chromatography and a sample of One Dip.
>
> It's perchloroethylene.
>
> http://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/skus/899_F0668.pdf
hmm, ok, I have enough toxic things in my workshop without adding
another, think I will pass.
dAz
>
> From my experience (remember I'm not a watchmaker, only ammateur) sonication in shellite is safe (no shellack disolvation) and efficient way of degreasing and cleaning watch parts. Instead of hairdryer (ha, ha I've gotten this device) I use hand dust blower (gently with hairsprings).
I prefer the hairdryer on warm and low speed, ensures I don't get any
condensation from the evaporating solvent, great for drying out watch
cases too :)
dAz
dAz
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:51:47 +1000, dAz <d...@zipp.org> wrote:
>
>> yep, if it is just a spot of oil on the hairspring, the shelite and
>> hairdryer is usually enough, any more than that it is in the cleaner.
>>
>>> No, i'm not gay enough to use a hair dryer. ;-p
>> what?! just because I use a hairdryer and have bottles of nail polish on
>> the bench? :)
>>
> Have to admit, i'm a bit partial to the pink cuticle enery sticks i
> pinch from my wife.. :)
and the jeweller likes using bobby pins :)
>
>>> Anyway, don't know if Glad-wrap will dissolve, but if not, it may be a
>>> viable option to wrap a double layer around the neck and opening,
>>> before putting the cap on. Small price to pay if it works.
>> works even better if you don't buy it in the first place, I just checked
>> on the price of One-Dip, $33!, bet it cost that much by the litre from a
>> chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
>>
> Yep, bit steep for something that doesn't last long.
> But then, Shellite is also fairly expensive and does escape fairly
> quickly as well. I think i pay about 25 bucks for 4 litre and won't
> last me longer than a couple of weeks. There was a time when i could
> buy it from a bulk supplier in 30 litre drums for ~30 bucks, but
> they've stopped producing it. Then again, back then a litre from the
> hardware store was about 1.80 or something. In fact as i recall the
> price of shellite seemed to have gone from reasonable to rip off price
> overnight. You'd think it was petrol. :)
>
yes that is the way I buy my shelite now, 4lt containers from bunnings,
for the clocks I pour it into a tub to clean or rinse parts, then put it
back in the bottle, I seem to be not losing as much as I did when I used
in a container with a lid(stock pot), after a while it gets dirty, so
that 4lt gets used for dirty/greasy items first before I work on them, a
new 4lt bottle is opened for the final rinse, when it gets really dirty
then I use that on the car or on the grandfather clock that came in the
other week that had been 'oiled' with graphited oil :P
I used to go thru 2 20litre drums a year, but now I might use 3-4 4
litre bottles a year, I don't do as many watches as I used to so a 4
litre bottle will last 12 months for the watch cleaner.
ABC
>OK guys, your "local" chemist has done homework without gas chromatography and a sample of One Dip.
>
>It's perchloroethylene.
>
>http://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/skus/899_F0668.pdf
>
You are brilliant. Now I will try to get some from the Chem lab.
ABC
Frank Adam
>
>"dAz" <d...@zipp.org> wrote in message news:hv6ir7$1fh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Frank Adam wrote:
>
>> chemical supplier, if I knew what it was.
>>
>
>OK guys, your "local" chemist has done homework without gas chromatography and a sample of One Dip.
>
>It's perchloroethylene.
>
>http://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/skus/899_F0668.pdf
>
Hangon there buddy... what about the 0.6% ? ;-p
--
Regards, Frank
d530
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:jp0h165550bu38534...@4ax.com...
>>
> Hangon there buddy... what about the 0.6% ? ;-p
>
Frank, I knew somebody would ask this question.
For chemical agents suppliers specify assay (%), rest is impurities.
Please compare PER specification from Scharlau:
http://www.tinyurl.pl?w3GunE0i
for this extra pure grade assay determined by GC is >=99,5%.
But it means not less than 99,5%. When you buy a bottle designated "Batch: 12/2009" it has it's own COA (Certificate of analysis) which may state assay content 99,7% for this specific batch.
Probably Bergeon bought a barrel of PER from chemicals supplier and from accompying COA rewrited PER content to MSDS.
In fact law doesn't require to state exact chemical composition in MSDS.
Bergeon might state in MSDS that tetrachloroethylene content is >80% (this specific number only as an example, the rule is that you can't lower the content to the extent when classification changes eg. from harmfull to irritant).
If Bergeon hidden exact content of PER and stated >80%, we wouldn't know whether rest 20% is miraculous ingredient necessary for good degreasing properties of One Dip.
My guess is that One Dip is repackaged PER. There can't be any non volatile additives (as surfactants) even in small quantities, otherwise cleaning solution wouldn't evaporate completely leaving percipitate on hairsprings.
best regards, "local" chemist
Frank Adam
Thanks, that was a damn good explanation. You should try chemistry as
a job. ;)
Although i was kidding with my reply, i did think that it would be
some sort of required additive. I recall reading somewhere that in
some places Denatonium has to be added(by law) to paints, solvents and
such to make them unpallatable.
--
Regards, Frank
d530
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:26vi16dd50kk2f0qg...@4ax.com...
> Thanks, that was a damn good explanation. You should try chemistry as
> a job. ;)
>
HA, ha, ha. I know this time you are kidding.
Just FYI - doing it for 27 years, and before for another 12 years as a hobby.
d530
"nonanon" <no...@invalid.com> wrote in message news:O_rRn.20478$Ha1.19699@hurricane...
> This might soun d stupid, but what happens if you store it upside down?
>
> The vapours are what escape the bottle seal, and if the vaopur is above a
> solvent 'lock' they cannot escape.
Something concerns me. Plastic cap resists contact with vapour of PER, but might not resist constant contact with liquid PER.
When screwed firmly it may break after prolonged exposition.
If you really want to try upside down position consider placing bottle in a bowl or other vessel (can).