Longines - A Good Investment?
mjsi...@hotmail.com
price I have is £2000. The most important factor to me is the quality
of the movement (automatic if possible); whether it is gold / steel or
whether it is new or pre-owned is less important. Typically, I prefer
the square faced type designs, on a plain leather strap.
For roughly the same money (I think) I could just about afford a pre-
owned Patek Philippe, or a Jaeger-LeCoultre (albeit one of the
"lesser" models). I realise that Longines isn't in the same league as
these two, but the watch seems to represent reasonable quality at a
good price.
My question is, with a budget of £2000 and considering my
requirements, which makes of watches should I consider? Is Longines a
reasonable choice? I don't want to make a bad choice so any comment
appreciated!
John S.
I know watch salespeople would have you believe otherwise, but the
purchase of a new watch at a retailer should not be considered to be
an investment. Most of us look for investments to appreciate in value
with a return at least equal to inflation. To make money you would
need to purchase the watch at well below retail and then be willing to
store it.
I would instead focus on the features that attract you to the watch.
And yes Longines is long recognized as having a reputation for making
high quality very attractive timepieces.
pat.mo...@gmail.com
Get it, if you would like to. The usual talk of "investments" and
"heirlooms" is just a clumsy attempt to impose a seemingly sensible
reason on a beautifully impulsive choice. Don't cod yourself. :)
Yes Baby
<pat.mo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185204533.8...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Get it, if you would like to. The usual talk of "investments" and
> "heirlooms" is just a clumsy attempt to impose a seemingly sensible
> reason on a beautifully impulsive choice. Don't cod yourself. :)
>
yes whatever you do just don't cod yourself.............
John S.
> <pat.morris...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Uuuuh, yes, one should not just go codding about with abandon.
Otherwise one might be asked to don a codpiece to protect that cod
from being coddled. At least in public places.
Sammy
<mjsi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185191753.9...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Hello,
I don't know a great deal about watches but I do know the market pretty well
so (unusually) my thoughts might actually be useful :-).
I think that with a little patience and research you should be able to get a
good second user Longines auto for closer to £200 than £2000. I can
certainly sell you one :-).
FWIW, I wouldn't invest £2000 in a Longines because I think the market is
down and going further down for that brand, generally.
It's an unpopular (on this ng) choice but my £2000 would go on a used Rolex
Oyster or JLC Reverso. Not because I think they'll appreciate but because
(IMO) they won't go down.
I hope that helps
Sammy
Moka Java
If I'm not mistaken, Longines is now part of the Swatch group and the
movement is made by ETA. This isn't a bad thing but it's not exclusive.
http://www.longines.com/eng/html_longines/Watches/Technical_information/MMovement.pdf
Both Patek and JLC make their own movements. Buying a pre-owned watch
will remove the initial depreciation the occurs when you walk out of the
store with a new watch so your 2000 GBP will buy you much more of a
watch. Your best deal will be from a private seller rather than a
dealer. Of course, you won't have a warranty. Check the sales forum at
timezone.com. Do be careful if buying a Patek or JLC on Ebay as there
are many fakes out there.
R "as to the investment potential of anything, sorry, can't help you, my
crystal ball is in the shop" TF
Alex W.
"John S." <hjs...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1185212084.1...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Was that a coda?
nathantw
Buy stocks or put your money into a money market account if that's your
goal. The only way your watch is going to go up in price is if the watch was
a very, very limited production watch or a watch company has a need to buy
back their watches. One of the reasons why you see Pateks going for $1.2
million at auction is probably because the Patek wanted it back.
Buy the watch because you like it and because it talks with you. That said
it's very rare that a 2000 pound watch would be worth much in the future.
There are too many of those models made.
Well, just my opinion. Good luck.
Nathan
<mjsi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185191753.9...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Lorenzo
> Don't buy a watch if you think it's going to make you money in the future.
Yes, but the OP might want to know whether the investment will drop more
than if he bought another watch.
This is the reasoning I use to justify buying a nice watch - "Yes dear wife,
but it will cost less than a cheap watch because it will keep much more of
its value over the years".
As far as investment potential (in the above sense) is concerned, if you buy
a vintage watch it will have lost most of its value already and might stay
pretty steady now for years to come.
John S.
>
> Both Patek and JLC make their own movements. Buying a pre-owned watch
> will remove the initial depreciation the occurs when you walk out of the
> store with a new watch so your 2000 GBP will buy you much more of a
> watch. Your best deal will be from a private seller rather than a
> dealer. Of course, you won't have a warranty. Check the sales forum at
> timezone.com. Do be careful if buying a Patek or JLC on Ebay as there
> are many fakes out there.
>
> R "as to the investment potential of anything, sorry, can't help you, my
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, buying a pre-owned watch at retail is a better way of limiting
ones loss. And it gives one access to a wide range of watches that
won't look like everything else for sale new.
Richard Sexton
No, he said it just for the halibut.
--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
SWG
I appreciate your reasoning. Should I wish to make an investment in
any watch, I would rather buy a pre-owned PP or JLC (no any other
brands).
On the other end, please do not put aside the affective matter: if
your really fancy the Longines, much better than any other style, go
for it: Longines is just as a good brand as any other long established
Swiss Watch Brand.
Brian Garrett
"Richard Sexton" <ric...@news.vrx.net> wrote in message
news:f8ka1n$ok$4...@news.datemas.de...
> In article <5gku09F...@mid.individual.net>,
> Alex W. <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>"John S." <hjs...@cs.com> wrote in message
>>news:1185212084.1...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 23, 1:13 pm, "Yes Baby" <2...@never2latebtinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> <pat.morris...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1185204533.8...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Get it, if you would like to. The usual talk of "investments" and
>>>> > "heirlooms" is just a clumsy attempt to impose a seemingly sensible
>>>> > reason on a beautifully impulsive choice. Don't cod yourself. :)
>>>>
>>>> yes whatever you do just don't cod yourself.............
>>>
>>> Uuuuh, yes, one should not just go codding about with abandon.
>>> Otherwise one might be asked to don a codpiece to protect that cod
>>> from being coddled. At least in public places.
>>>
>>
>>Was that a coda?
>
> No, he said it just for the halibut.
>
John S.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually he was driving a Coda, that new hybrid from Spain.
Alex W.
"John S." <hjs...@cs.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1186075082....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I would have liked to see that -- a true Coda(k) moment ....
SWG
The Swatch Group's Board has established new marketing positioning for
two of their key brands:
Omega must re-establish itself into the same market segment as Rolex
(as it used to be in the Fifties / Sixities), therefore, Longines,
must fill in the price gap left idle with a third collection besides
the already existing Elegance and Heritage: the Sport Collection.
Thus, Longines is going to gain in attractivity over the next few
years, as the third level brand, beyond Breguet and Omega.
Jack Denver
formerly prestigious brand downscale (see Elgin, Gruen, etc.) than it is to
take a brand that has fallen and restore it to it's former position. While
it's true that Omega once ranked in the public mind as the equal of Rolex,
that was a long time ago. Today, people are used to the idea that a
Seamaster Auto sells for half as much as a Submariner - it will be very hard
to double the price of the Seamaster and sustain sales. A Rolex (for all its
faults) is a watch with a true manufacture movement. Even Rolex can't get
$3000 for a watch with a modified ETA - the Tudors with ETA go for around
the same as the Omega. Likewise Longines has fallen into more or less
obscurity and it will be equally difficult to have it occupy Omega's current
niche.
I'd think Swatch would be better off leaving Omega and Longines as they are
and introducing an additional brand wedged in between Breguet and Omega.
Since a totally new brand is also hard to introduce, they could call this
something semi-familiar - "Omega Deluxe" or something like that. Into
Omega Deluxe I'd put the co-axial watches and anything with a true Omega
manufacture movement. Everthing with modified ETA or quartz would become
"Omega Dynamic ". But then again Hayek is a billionaire so maybe he knows
more than me.
"SWG" <swissw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186126311.3...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Alex W.
"Jack Denver" <nunu...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Qq6dnQ3JQNE2pirb...@comcast.com...
> This is a very tough thing to implement - it's much easier to move a
> formerly prestigious brand downscale (see Elgin, Gruen, etc.) than it is
> to take a brand that has fallen and restore it to it's former position.
> While it's true that Omega once ranked in the public mind as the equal of
> Rolex, that was a long time ago. Today, people are used to the idea that
> a Seamaster Auto sells for half as much as a Submariner - it will be very
> hard to double the price of the Seamaster and sustain sales. A Rolex (for
> all its faults) is a watch with a true manufacture movement. Even Rolex
> can't get $3000 for a watch with a modified ETA - the Tudors with ETA go
> for around the same as the Omega. Likewise Longines has fallen into more
> or less obscurity and it will be equally difficult to have it occupy
> Omega's current niche.
Off-hand, I can think of IWC and Zenith who have both moved upmarket in
recent years (with commensurate increases in price), so it's not exactly an
unprecedented move.
>
>
>
> I'd think Swatch would be better off leaving Omega and Longines as they
> are and introducing an additional brand wedged in between Breguet and
> Omega. Since a totally new brand is also hard to introduce, they could
> call this something semi-familiar - "Omega Deluxe" or something like
> that.
How about Minerva?
Wing C Ng
"base movement" for all its lines "some day".
-Wing
"Jack Denver" <nunu...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Qq6dnQ3JQNE2pirb...@comcast.com...
SWG
> "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote in message
Hayek has already Blancpain.
Jack Denver
IWC and Omega were all roughly on par as mainstream solid middle class
brands. None were in the "luxury" category. In some ways they are even
more remarkable in that IWC managed not only to stay even with Rolex (in
terms of average price per watch) but even pull ahead, all while giving up
manufacture and going over to mostly ETA base movements. In my book most
IWC models are even more overpriced than Rolex, but people buy them anyway.
But I imagine that their unit volume is nowhere close to Rolex or Omega, so
it's not the same thing - they are more of a niche player.
"Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5hp7b0F...@mid.individual.net...
Jack Denver
drop the ETA based movements ("some day", as you say). They have
introduced their first new manufacture movement recently.
But this is a very high end movement and I can't imagine how they could put
this into a mainstream watch such as a Seamaster without doubling the price
of the watch or more. Maybe this is what they plan to do but there will
certainly be consumer resistance to paying those prices for a watch that
formerly sold for 1/2 as much.
Maybe future introductions will include simpler Omega manufacture movements
but given modern development costs it's hard to see how they could make this
pay.
"Wing C Ng" <wi...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:13bfj4c...@corp.supernews.com...
SWG
> IIRC Omega's current goal is to switch to Omega manufacture movements and
> drop the ETA based movements ("some day", as you say). They have
> introduced their first new manufacture movement recently.
>
>
> But this is a very high end movement and I can't imagine how they could put
> this into a mainstream watch such as a Seamaster without doubling the price
> of the watch or more. Maybe this is what they plan to do but there will
> certainly be consumer resistance to paying those prices for a watch that
> formerly sold for 1/2 as much.
>
> Maybe future introductions will include simpler Omega manufacture movements
> but given modern development costs it's hard to see how they could make this
> pay.
>
>
> >I read in a watch mag. that Omega will use the co-axial as its
> > "base movement" for all its lines "some day".
>
> > -Wing
>
> >news:Qq6dnQ3JQNE2pirb...@comcast.com...
> >> This is a very tough thing to implement - it's much easier to move a
> >> formerly prestigious brand downscale (see Elgin, Gruen, etc.) than it is
> >> to take a brand that has fallen and restore it to it's former position.
> >> While it's true that Omega once ranked in the public mind as the equal of
> >> Rolex, that was a long time ago. Today, people are used to the idea that
> >> a Seamaster Auto sells for half as much as a Submariner - it will be very
> >> hard to double the price of the Seamaster and sustain sales. A Rolex (for
> >> all its faults) is a watch with a true manufacture movement. Even Rolex
> >> can't get $3000 for a watch with a modified ETA - the Tudors with ETA go
> >> for around the same as the Omega. Likewise Longines has fallen into
> >> more or less obscurity and it will be equally difficult to have it occupy
> >> Omega's current niche.
>
> >> I'd think Swatch would be better off leaving Omega and Longines as they
> >> are and introducing an additional brand wedged in between Breguet and
> >> Omega. Since a totally new brand is also hard to introduce, they could
> >> call this something semi-familiar - "Omega Deluxe" or something like
> >> that. Into Omega Deluxe I'd put the co-axial watches and anything with a
> >> true Omega manufacture movement. Everthing with modified ETA or quartz
> >> would become "Omega Dynamic ". But then again Hayek is a billionaire so
> >> maybe he knows more than me.
>
> >>news:1186126311.3...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Aug 3, 12:31 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> The Swatch Group's Board has established new marketing positioning for
> >>> two of their key brands:
>
> >>> Omega must re-establish itself into the same market segment as Rolex
> >>> (as it used to be in the Fifties / Sixities), therefore, Longines,
> >>> must fill in the price gap left idle with a third collection besides
> >>> the already existing Elegance and Heritage: the Sport Collection.
>
> >>> Thus, Longines is going to gain in attractivity over the next few
> >>> years, as the third level brand, beyond Breguet and Omega.
Omega dispose of the full industrial base in order to develop swiftly
and at not too high costs of own "manufacture" movements, based upon
ETA and Piguet (base of Blancpain's) movement manufactures. My guess
is that all new developments on Omega's lines shall be "manufacture"
based.
Jack Denver
back where they started from, with modified ETA movements (and ironically
there's nothing wrong w. ETA movements other than they lack "prestige" but
prestige is the goal) . OTOH, if they start from a clean slate then costs
will be higher - there's a reason why new Swiss movement introductions are
exceedingly rare today. At least though Omega doesn't have to worry about
source of supply for hairsprings, balance wheels, etc. the way other manuf.
do.
"SWG" <swissw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186510024....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
SWG
> IWC is I guess the closest parallel. If you go back to say the 50's, Rolex,
> IWC and Omega were all roughly on par as mainstream solid middle class
> brands. None were in the "luxury" category. In some ways they are even
> more remarkable in that IWC managed not only to stay even with Rolex (in
> terms of average price per watch) but even pull ahead, all while giving up
> manufacture and going over to mostly ETA base movements. In my book most
> IWC models are even more overpriced than Rolex, but people buy them anyway.
> But I imagine that their unit volume is nowhere close to Rolex or Omega, so
> it's not the same thing - they are more of a niche player.
I would like to remind you that IWC and Jeager LeCoultre have long
been incorporated together in a financially very strong group, which
has re-created Lange & Söhne. Please do not forget that JLC is the
only really vertically integrated manufacture. All three brands have
been sold off to the Ruperts' Group, owning also the whole Cartier
Group (besides Rothman and some other smoky investments).
Alex W.
> There is a tension here. OTOH, if they rely too heavily on ETA they end up
> back where they started from, with modified ETA movements (and ironically
> there's nothing wrong w. ETA movements other than they lack "prestige"
> but prestige is the goal) . OTOH, if they start from a clean slate then
> costs will be higher - there's a reason why new Swiss movement
> introductions are exceedingly rare today. At least though Omega doesn't
> have to worry about source of supply for hairsprings, balance wheels, etc.
> the way other manuf. do.
There may be a legal aspect to this; I recently read in some magazine or
other that the more sophisticated counterfeit watches now incorporate
halfway decent copies of standard movements by ETA and others. The point
made was that these movements have been on the market for so long that they
have lost legal protection.
That aside, prestige really has very little to do with content. Much of
today's highly prestigious fashion is made in Far Eastern countries, and
many prestigious car makers share platforms, engines and even parts bins.
Beyond that, I am unclear on the cost of developing and introducing new
calibers. Sure, if they keep the entire process in-house, the cost can be
prohibitive. But then, gearing up with new machines and training the staff
is largely a one-off capital expense, easily amortised over the lifetime of
the movement -- a lifetime, moreover, which can be several decades if you
designed the movement right in the first place to allow for various modules
to increase the range of permissible complications. In fact, even the cost
of design can be reduced by outsourcing it to a specialist (Droz springs to
mind). So why should it be so very expensive?
Alex W.
> IWC is I guess the closest parallel. If you go back to say the 50's,
> Rolex, IWC and Omega were all roughly on par as mainstream solid middle
> class brands. None were in the "luxury" category. In some ways they are
> even more remarkable in that IWC managed not only to stay even with Rolex
> (in terms of average price per watch) but even pull ahead, all while
> giving up manufacture and going over to mostly ETA base movements. In my
> book most IWC models are even more overpriced than Rolex, but people buy
> them anyway. But I imagine that their unit volume is nowhere close to
> Rolex or Omega, so it's not the same thing - they are more of a niche
> player.
... yet.
Apart from the boost of the unexpected huge success of the Portugieser (one
of the very few non-Rolex and non-Patek watches to increase second-hand
price), IWC is a prime example of the power of advertising. Their campaign
was and is brilliant.
SWG
> "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote in message
I agree with you with the publicity, that has been in the hands of a
publicity couple in a small agency for decades, when they came out
with a then innovative approach, always using full page newspaper with
a blown up watch and strong witty statements.
The design of a new caliber is done with adapted software, by
specialist, mostly watchmaker / engineers who have absolved a special
3-4 years cursus in the La Chaux-de-Fonds / Le Locle engineers' school
specialised in microtechnics / electronics. IMHO the whole procedure
costs as from CHF 1'000'000.00 until the last screw has been designed
and the movement has worked satisfactorily on computer simulation,
within the given parameters. Then a first prototype serie is
manufactured with the assistance of CAD/CAM, assembled and tested by
watchmakers and improved in cooperation of all specialists involved in
its later industrial manufacture. Computer programmes for all parts
must be improved and finalised, including the QC of all admitted
tolerances with one another for the making of an industrial pre-serie,
repeating the procedure of final trial and error in assembly and
numerous tests, of the movement alone, set with dial and hands and
finally completely assembled into trial watches. The further
investment lies in the manufacturing / purchasing all parts and start
the real manufacturing. ETA talks about having to follow a learning
curve of at least 1 Mio pieces.
Of course, anyone can now copy the old ETA movements like 2824 / 2892
but so much practical know how in the manufacture of each single
piece, especially regulating ones, and the devil hidden in minutes
details, that a copy is not necessarily as good as the original.
Moka Java
>
> The design of a new caliber is done with adapted software, by
> specialist, mostly watchmaker / engineers who have absolved a special
> 3-4 years cursus in the La Chaux-de-Fonds / Le Locle engineers' school
> specialised in microtechnics / electronics. IMHO the whole procedure
> costs as from CHF 1'000'000.00 until the last screw has been designed
> and the movement has worked satisfactorily on computer simulation,
> within the given parameters. Then a first prototype serie is
> manufactured with the assistance of CAD/CAM, assembled and tested by
> watchmakers and improved in cooperation of all specialists involved in
> its later industrial manufacture. Computer programmes for all parts
> must be improved and finalised, including the QC of all admitted
> tolerances with one another for the making of an industrial pre-serie,
> repeating the procedure of final trial and error in assembly and
> numerous tests, of the movement alone, set with dial and hands and
> finally completely assembled into trial watches. The further
> investment lies in the manufacturing / purchasing all parts and start
> the real manufacturing. ETA talks about having to follow a learning
> curve of at least 1 Mio pieces.
>
> Of course, anyone can now copy the old ETA movements like 2824 / 2892
> but so much practical know how in the manufacture of each single
> piece, especially regulating ones, and the devil hidden in minutes
> details, that a copy is not necessarily as good as the original.
>
Omega could do worse than to reissue the mid 500 caliber movements and
variations of the pie pan dial.
R "yeah, I know, living in the past" TF
Jack Denver
I can only infer that it is expensive/uneconomical nowadays by the fact
that all new calibers are introduced so rarely in modern times and the few
that are are in the luxury category. Most of the principal calibers in use
both by the Swiss and the Japanese have designs that date back to the 70s or
even earlier. One would think that with modern CAD/CAM etc. it would be no
big deal to design a new movement and create the tooling necessary but
apparently it is.
"Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5hsdcfF...@mid.individual.net...
SWG
> I can only infer that it is expensive/uneconomical nowadays by the fact
> that all new calibers are introduced so rarely in modern times and the few
> that are are in the luxury category. Most of the principal calibers in use
> both by the Swiss and the Japanese have designs that date back to the 70s or
> even earlier. One would think that with modern CAD/CAM etc. it would be no
> big deal to design a new movement and create the tooling necessary but
> apparently it is.
>
design of a car engine.
Alex W.
These days, it is. You try running a modern car without engine management
chips or computer-controlled fuel injection ...
SWG
> "SWG" <swisswatch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
...meaning that a mechanical watch movement is more complicated, not
having to rely on electronic devises!
When I think that all our so called modern cars can be stopped within
less than a second by a strong enough electronic influence!