Is this "Tissot Seastar" a, erm, replica?
Timo @ work
ebay from a seller with decent feedback. Lots of pictures of the
watch, but of course I probably didn't quite look closely enough...
I'll attempt a short description of the watch so maybe someone can
shed some light on what I've actually bought before I get back to the
seller - I'd like to avoid looking even more like a twit than I
already do, I guess.
Case is gold plated with a stainless steel back. Plain crown, again
gold plated and not very well, some of the plating appears to have
rubbed off.
The back carries the inscription 'stainless steel back' at the top and
a symbol followed by
629 AM
ZF MANAUS
at the bottom of the back. The back is simply pushed on - in fact,
it's sitting loose enough so I can pop it open with simple fingernail
pressure.
Face of the watch is 'brushed gold' (for want of a better word) with a
'T' in a square and the word 'Tissot' at the top and the word
'Seamaster' at the bottom. All inscriptions on the face of the watch
are black and appear to be printed/silk screened on.
Movement (well, I *did* have the watch open as the back comes off that
easily) is manual wind and appears to be unsigned. However, the watch
design looks like something from the late '70s, early '80s and the
only fully manual Seastars I could find were dating from the 1950s.
So I guess the question is - does this description ring a bell with
someone? Is this a genuine Tissot after all?
TIA,
Timo
Who doesn't have much luck with buying watches recently, but at least
the other one was genuine. Genuinely broken as well, unfortunately.
Jack Denver
one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58568&item=4908123684&rd=1
Fairly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would fake a Tissot, which
is a lower end watch - for the same money you can fake an Omega. In the
picture, the movement appears to be clearly signed Tissot. You may have
issues with the seller regarding condition, but if you accuse him of selling
a fake you will indeed look like a twit.
PS I think you overpaid a bit but this was your fault not the seller's.
"Timo @ work" <mr...@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:7df8240b.04070...@posting.google.com...
zog
> Why don't you give the ebay link so we can look at the pictures? Is it this
> one?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58568&item=4908123684&rd=1
>
> Fairly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would fake a Tissot, which
> is a lower end watch - for the same money you can fake an Omega. In the
> picture, the movement appears to be clearly signed Tissot. You may have
> issues with the seller regarding condition, but if you accuse him of selling
> a fake you will indeed look like a twit.
movement looks like an ETA, I can see the shield just under the balance,
it looks a bit grotty, different finish to the barrel bridge is not
good, different case screw which is also rusty, just hope there is no
further rust in the movement.
when did Tissot start using ETA movements, 1980s?, cannot really tell by
the photo if that Tissot label on the movement is just sitting on top of
the plate or sitting in a milled out recess as it is supposed to on a
real Tissot
>
> PS I think you overpaid a bit but this was your fault not the seller's.
yeah I think its a bit high considering the condition.
Moka Java
it's just as easy to fake an Omega. Tissot was Omega's second line and
there are often similarities in the movements of Tissots and Omegas.
There are lots of fake omegas out there but I've never seen a fake Tissot.
Assuming Jack found the right Ebay auction (if it's not, please post a
link to the right one) the movement looks coarse and crude compared to
other Tissots I've seen. The movement plates seem to have 3 different
finishes on them.
Your description of the dial as looking silk screened is also
suspicious. The Tissots that I've seen have had very well finished
dials. It could be a re-dial or a fake. Original Tissot dials are
metal. I've seen fake Omegas with paper dials. If your Tissot has
"Seamaster" printed on the dial it's obviously wrong.
An original Tissot crown would have a "T" on it. Crowns get lost and
are often replaced with non-original ones. I've had 3 vintage Tissot
Seastars over the years and each had a screw on back. While a snap back
isn't impossible, if yours drops off it's likely missing the gasket.
So lets add this all up:
- Fluky looking movement
- Badly finished dial
- Unsigned crown is worn
- While plated case and dial are not worn
- Snap back case
- Signed "Seamaster" on dial (?)
I might have paid US$10 for it as a curiosity.
Richard "sometimes the fakes are more interesting than the real ones" F
""Timo@work
> Why don't you give the ebay link so we can look at the pictures? Is
it this
> one?
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58568&item=4908123684&rd=1
That's indeed the one.
> Fairly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would fake a
Tissot, which
> is a lower end watch - for the same money you can fake an Omega. In
the
> picture, the movement appears to be clearly signed Tissot.
And yes, you're correct, the movement is indeed signed. The firewall at
work blocked the additional pictures so I didn't exactly know where the
movement was signed - a friend of mine mailed me the missing pictures
and yo and behold, I finally knew where to look. Was looking for
something a bit bigger, so that's why I missed it. Doh. Put that one
down to experience then.
> You may have
> issues with the seller regarding condition, but if you accuse him of
selling
> a fake you will indeed look like a twit.
Condition is pretty good and I don't have an issue with it. After all,
this was a watch that I bought to wear, not for collection purposes;
it's more to save the "good" one from daily wear. A little bit of wear
doesn't matter too much.
> PS I think you overpaid a bit but this was your fault not the
seller's.
I'm happy to accept that I overpaid slightly for it - as an experienced
ebayer I've long buried any "issues" with this - auction fever is
definitely my fault...
Just out of interest, what would be your take on the non-auction fever
value?
Anyway, thanks for the quick reply, worries are laid to rest now.
Right, time to leave positive feedback for the seller...
Thanks,
Timo
Jack Denver
photo - it's possible that the movement is a "frankenwatch" with replacement
pieces from other ETA, but also possible that the original had mixed
finishes as a decorative effect - the photo was pretty blurry in any event.
Possibly a redial in that the dial looks fresher than the movement, but
maybe not. You'd expect a worn crown in a handwind which gets handled daily.
"Seamaster" was a mis-typing by Timo and it really says "Seastar" - that's
clear in the photos. I have a Tissot quartz from the mid-80s that also says
"Stainless steel back" and has a T in a square logo, so I'd guess a similar
vintage for this watch. Again, the chances of this being an outright fake
are slim.
All in all, I'd put it at somewhere around $30 to $70. Personally, I would
have stood at $30, but if I really liked the look of the watch maybe as high
as $50. $140 would be fair only if the watch was NOS in unworn condition .
PS If you really want to wear the watch daily, you'll probably need to
invest in a clean and lube. How is the watch doing on timekeeping?
"Moka Java" <watchesrt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2kvqbqF...@uni-berlin.de...
Moka Java
it's questionable. The watch looks to be 70's - 80's vintage so one
would expect an ETA movement to be marked "Unadjusted Swiss" with a
jewel count. Frankenwatch is certainly possible but the movement
doesn't look like any ETA that I've ever seen -- but I haven't seen them
all. A Swiss dial from the era of this watch would usually be marked "T
Swiss T" so it could be a refinished dial. The Swiss are very proud of
their watchmaking and mark "Swiss" on the movement, case and dial. Is
the case marked "Swiss" or "Swiss Made" anywhere? Perhaps Tissot had
some watches made in Japan to compete with the onslaught of cheaper,
more accurate quartz movements that were flooding the market in the 80's?
Timo, I'm not trying to insult you, this is my honest assessment of your
watch. It's questionable enough that you should take it to a watchmaker
(one with gray hair) and see what he or she thinks. If it's real get it
serviced and enjoy it as a really odd Tissot. If it's fake send it back
and get your money back. Early on in my watch collecting endeavors (now
15+ years) I bought a fake Omega Seamaster. The seller, a reputable
antique dealer, took it back when the situation was explained to him.
Richard "not a watchmaker, just a collector" F
Frank Adam
<nunu...@netscape.net> wrote:
>I think you're putting too negative a spin on this. Hard to say from the
>photo - it's possible that the movement is a "frankenwatch" with replacement
>pieces from other ETA, but also possible that the original had mixed
>finishes as a decorative effect - the photo was pretty blurry in any event.
>Possibly a redial in that the dial looks fresher than the movement, but
>maybe not. You'd expect a worn crown in a handwind which gets handled daily.
>"Seamaster" was a mis-typing by Timo and it really says "Seastar" - that's
>clear in the photos. I have a Tissot quartz from the mid-80s that also says
>"Stainless steel back" and has a T in a square logo, so I'd guess a similar
>vintage for this watch. Again, the chances of this being an outright fake
>are slim.
>
One thing that caught my eye was that under the balance there is a
clear view of the edge of an ETA,FHF or some other swiss mark. I do
not recall any Tissot that had original manufacturer markings on the
mainplate, but then again i was never really looking..
So this could be either a Tissot movement that was mistreated by a
butcher, or it's just a Swiss movement that had it's centre bridge
replaced by a Tissot part. It is quite possible that if this watch got
very rusty, a watchmaker may have replaced a lot of parts from
original Swiss manufaturer part, instead of getting Tissot parts from
Swatch. The difference in price could be quite big, especially if said
watchmaker had one of those movements floating about in his/her
treasure bin.
FWIW, my own Seastar quartz is also a 3 piece case, as this one on the
picture seems to be. Note the movement retainer screws location.
So i'd say case could be genuine, movement looks sus, dial looks
genuine as Tissots at one stage used those domed dials looking exactly
like that one does. The crown as you said may be a cheapie and looking
at what was done to the movement, that is no surprise. I bought them
cheap crowns once and i could rub the plating off with a with a couple
of wipes using a rouge cloth. Goilds aint goilds.. :)
--
Regards, Frank
Timo Geusch
> I think you're putting too negative a spin on this. Hard to say from the
> photo - it's possible that the movement is a "frankenwatch" with replacement
> pieces from other ETA, but also possible that the original had mixed
> finishes as a decorative effect - the photo was pretty blurry in any
> event.
I'd say that's the case (pardon the pun) after taking the back off
again. Some of the parts are finished in a 'copper' colour, others
brass, and given the way the surfaces are machined this effect seems
to be wholly intentiola. Apart from some dirt on the inside of the
case, the movement looks clean and in OK condition.
> Possibly a redial in that the dial looks fresher than the movement, but
> maybe not. You'd expect a worn crown in a handwind which gets handled daily.
> "Seamaster" was a mis-typing by Timo and it really says "Seastar" - that's
> clear in the photos.
It does say Seastar, as mentioned in the subject. This was indeed my
typo.
> All in all, I'd put it at somewhere around $30 to $70. Personally, I would
> have stood at $30, but if I really liked the look of the watch maybe as high
> as $50. $140 would be fair only if the watch was NOS in unworn
> condition .
OK, given that 1GBP over here usually buys you what USD 1 buys you in
the US, I paid a little too much but it's probably not *that* far off.
> PS If you really want to wear the watch daily, you'll probably need to
> invest in a clean and lube.
I'll see how it'll pan out, if it's a keeper I'll have to have the
strap replaced as it's some type of plastic, so I may well send it off
for a clean and strap replacement.
> How is the watch doing on timekeeping?
Seems to be OK so far - if anything, it's running slightly fast, but I
was using the clock at work as a reference so mine at home might be a
bit off.
Hasn't lost or gained any noticeable amount of time so far.
Moka Java
> Jack Denver was seen penning the following ode to ... whatever:
>
>>I think you're putting too negative a spin on this. Hard to say from the
>>photo - it's possible that the movement is a "frankenwatch" with replacement
>>pieces from other ETA, but also possible that the original had mixed
>>finishes as a decorative effect - the photo was pretty blurry in any
>>event.
>
>
> I'd say that's the case (pardon the pun) after taking the back off
> again. Some of the parts are finished in a 'copper' colour, others
> brass, and given the way the surfaces are machined this effect seems
> to be wholly intentiola. Apart from some dirt on the inside of the
> case, the movement looks clean and in OK condition.
But does the movement have "Swiss" engraved on it anywhere? Is it
marked as to how many jewels it has? Can you read what's in the little
crest under the balance? Does the watch have "Swiss" or "Swiss Made"
engraved or printed on it anywhere? Perhaps on the inside of the case back?
-- snippage --
>
>
> OK, given that 1GBP over here usually buys you what USD 1 buys you in
> the US, I paid a little too much but it's probably not *that* far off.
Not sure what you mean by this. I've purchased many watches from GB
dealers and considered them great bargains compared to what the same or
similar items would cost in the US. Check out this well respected
dealer: http://www.timefactors.com/index.html Convert prices to US$ and
add shipping and most of his stuff still looks pretty reasonable. Of
course you guys have taxes the US gub'ment hasn't considered yet. Do
you have to pay taxes on your Ebay purchases?
I know you don't care about what the watch cost you. Heck, a dinner out
might cost more and give less satisfaction. If you like the looks of it
who am I to argue with you? But the seller did say it was a Swiss
watch. If it ain't marked "Swiss" on it anyplace I'd wager it ain't.
Richard "it's curious but I still don't want it" F
Jack Denver
emblem under the balance in the photo. I believe him, though I couldn't see
it myself.
Manaus is a place in Brazil. Could this watch be something strange like a
Brazil assembled watch? I recall that Orient has a factory in Brazil,.
Perhaps Tissot once did also. I assume that this has (had?) something to do
with Brazilian tariffs or other laws which made it economically worthwhile
to assemble watches in country to serve the Brazilian domestic market.
Sometimes these satellite factories have their own localized models which
don't match the worldwide product line. An appeal to Latin tastes would
explain the odd and un-Swiss looking combination of finishes inside the
watch and the fact that it doesn't quite look like any Tissot that anyone
has seen. Also, 3rd worldish places tend to get obsolete production, which
would explain the manual wind when most Tissots of the apparent vintage are
autos or quartz. VW made old Beetles in Mexico until this year and Ford
shipped the original (1960's) Falcon assembly line to Argentina and made
them there until the '90s. Items that are sold in their own country of
production are sometimes not be labeled as to origin (and from a marketing
point of view, Tissot was probably not anxious to trumpet a "Made in Brazil"
watch anyway). It's a theory, anyway.
"Moka Java" <watchesrt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2l2el8F...@uni-berlin.de...
Moka Java
> Frank says in a post above that he can see a bit of a Swiss ebauche (shield)
> emblem under the balance in the photo. I believe him, though I couldn't see
> it myself.
I see that too, it's about 8:00 on the balance wheel. Any letters in
the shield are covered by the balance. It's not necessarily a Swiss
mark. The layout and shape of the bridges is reminiscent of an A Schild
caliber but I'm no expert on such things. IIRC Frank is a watchmaker.
>
> Manaus is a place in Brazil.
Where do you see that?
Could this watch be something strange like a
> Brazil assembled watch? I recall that Orient has a factory in Brazil,.
> Perhaps Tissot once did also. I assume that this has (had?) something to do
> with Brazilian tariffs or other laws which made it economically worthwhile
> to assemble watches in country to serve the Brazilian domestic market.
> Sometimes these satellite factories have their own localized models which
> don't match the worldwide product line. An appeal to Latin tastes would
> explain the odd and un-Swiss looking combination of finishes inside the
> watch and the fact that it doesn't quite look like any Tissot that anyone
> has seen. Also, 3rd worldish places tend to get obsolete production, which
> would explain the manual wind when most Tissots of the apparent vintage are
> autos or quartz. VW made old Beetles in Mexico until this year and Ford
> shipped the original (1960's) Falcon assembly line to Argentina and made
> them there until the '90s. Items that are sold in their own country of
> production are sometimes not be labeled as to origin (and from a marketing
> point of view, Tissot was probably not anxious to trumpet a "Made in Brazil"
> watch anyway). It's a theory, anyway.
As good a theory as any. There's lots of interesting watch stuff coming
out of S. America these days.
Richard "Ebay is a wondrous place" F
Jack Denver
"Moka Java" <watchesrt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2l2n6fF...@uni-berlin.de...
Frank Adam
<watchesrt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jack Denver wrote:
>
>> Frank says in a post above that he can see a bit of a Swiss ebauche (shield)
>> emblem under the balance in the photo. I believe him, though I couldn't see
>> it myself.
>
>I see that too, it's about 8:00 on the balance wheel. Any letters in
>the shield are covered by the balance. It's not necessarily a Swiss
>mark. The layout and shape of the bridges is reminiscent of an A Schild
>caliber but I'm no expert on such things.
>
The shield can be a lot of things, yes. Off the top of my head it can
be.. AS, ETA, FHF, FEF, Felsa, Peseux, Chezard, Cyma, Landeron,
Eberle, ST(andard), Venus, and probably another handful that doesn't
come to mind.
TBH, i'm stuffed ID-ing that movement. If it wasn't for the fine teeth
visible on the centre seconds wheel, i'd also say that it could be an
AS. Of course it could well be a Tissot special they've made.
Anyway, with all my professional weight thrown in, i can confidently
summise that it is definitely a watch movement. One that we've all
spent way too much time trying to figure out. :)
>IIRC Frank is a watchmaker.
>
Sure, throw that in my face ! :)
--
Regards, Frank
Timo Geusch
> Timo Geusch wrote:
>
> But does the movement have "Swiss" engraved on it anywhere? Is it
> marked as to how many jewels it has?
Don't think so. Couldn't find it anywhere.
> Can you read what's in the little crest under the balance?
Hard to describe the crest, but next to it - somewhat hidden by the
balance it appears to read 'EYP' 2852. May be EYR, hard to say as the
characters are partially obscured.
The Tissot stamp/signature on the movement also reads '2852'.
> Does the watch have "Swiss" or "Swiss Made"
> engraved or printed on it anywhere? Perhaps on the inside of the
> case back?
Nope, inside of the case back only has the following imprint on it:
77.003
No reference to the location of manufacture anywhere apart from the
obscure reference to Manaus on the back.
>> OK, given that 1GBP over here usually buys you what USD 1 buys you in
>> the US, I paid a little too much but it's probably not *that* far off.
>
> Not sure what you mean by this. I've purchased many watches from GB
> dealers and considered them great bargains compared to what the same or
> similar items would cost in the US.
Ah sorry, I was referring to the comparison of purchasing power. The
UK in general is considered fairly expensive compared to both the rest
of Europe and the US, and as a cousin of mine (who's lived in the US)
pointed out, the price tags here mostly carry the same numbers as in
the US, only the currency has changed :-).
> Check out this well respected
> dealer: http://www.timefactors.com/index.html Convert prices to US$ and
> add shipping and most of his stuff still looks pretty reasonable.
That's an expensive link there :-).
> Of
> course you guys have taxes the US gub'ment hasn't considered yet.
Not many, I think. Taxation compares fairly well to the US, income
taxes are broadly similar, it's just the indirect taxes that are often
a lot higher (like 17.5% sales tax on most goods and services, plus
the high tax on fuel).
> Do you have to pay taxes on your Ebay purchases?
No; seller has to if they're doing it as a business but there are no
taxes for the purchaser unless you buy outside the EU as you'd have to
pay customs in the latter case.
> I know you don't care about what the watch cost you. Heck, a dinner out
> might cost more and give less satisfaction. If you like the looks of it
> who am I to argue with you? But the seller did say it was a Swiss
> watch. If it ain't marked "Swiss" on it anyplace I'd wager it
> ain't.
Aye, that's my feeling as well. And that's basically what still
doesn't sit too well with me - it *was* advertised as a Swiss Tissot
but it doesn't appear to be one. Oh well, I'll put that down to
experience then...
--
Timo Geusch
Frank Adam
<tn...@unixconsult.co.uk> wrote:
>Hard to describe the crest, but next to it - somewhat hidden by the
>balance it appears to read 'EYP' 2852. May be EYR, hard to say as the
>characters are partially obscured.
>
>The Tissot stamp/signature on the movement also reads '2852'.
>
Ahh crap ! It's an ETA 2872. Rather rare to see those around here.
That may be good news, Tissot and it's siblings do use ETA movements.
--
Regards, Frank
