How to re-time a hair spring
ABC
The hair sping is broken just at the stud. This makes it about 2 mm
too short. If I just stud the shortened hairspring, the balance is not
in beat.
I heard there is a process of re-timing a broken hairspring. See H.
Fried'.s Watch repairer's Manual p.255.
Can anyone tell me how this is done to re-use the broken hairspring??
I know I can but a replacemement 1187 balance cock comploete. This is
a practice so I want ot have a go at fixing it.
Thanks
K.M.
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG
The Baron
watch in beat. This involves removing the cock, balance wheel and spring
from the movement. Then with a small screwdriver or similar tool, turn the
balance spring collet on the balance staff a small amount. Turn it in the
opposite direction of the end of broken spring.
Put the complete assembly back in the movement and see if it is in beat. If
not then remove, adjust the collet more, then reassemble and try again.
Keep adjusting until the balance is in beat.
When you are in beat check the timing. The watch will be running too fast.
You may have enough room to adjust the regulator/index pins to correct to
the proper rate. If not the balance wheel can be lightened by changing the
size/weight of the screws or adding timing washers until it is the correct
weight for your shortened/faster balance spring.
This is the opposite procedure as described in watch repair books. In this
case the balance wheel is ''vibrated'' to the spring rather than a ''new
balance spring'' normally vibrated to the balance wheel. In either case the
two will be matched for the proper rate of your watch.
Normally a new spring would be found and then vibrated to the balance wheel
but as this is your ''practice watch(and parts may not be available) try it.
The lessons learned will be the same.
ABC <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:lrbe5tsmrtneibi1s...@4ax.com...
Chuck Harris
Well, if you just want to play, using the shortened hairspring can
be an interesting exercise. Reattach the stud to the broken end,
and rotate the collet around until the watch is back in beat. A
small oiler stuck in the slot on the collet will do in a pinch. Your
smallest screwdriver is NOT a good idea, as the angled tip will just
bung the edges of the collet, and may slip.
Check that the hairspring's index sweep is properly centered in the
index pins. Might require some gentle persuasion to make this
happen... depends alot on how you broke the spring in the first place.
And how you stud the end.
Now, you will find, of course, that the watch will run too fast when the
index is centered. You may find that there is enough range in the
index to accommodate this error, but probably not. If your balance has
timing screws (don't think it does), you can run out the mean time
screws, or add timing washers. Otherwise, you are , uhm... screwed!
The Swiss got quit good at making balances that could only be lightened,
and not made heavier.
Let's say you succeeded in slowing the balance down to proper rate.
Now, you are going to find that the natural error of the hairspring
is oriented in a different location, so the watch will not behave as
well in either positions, or isochronism. Such is life.
What I would do, in your place, is play to your heart's content with
the broken spring. Re stud it, re adjust the collet for beat, try it.
Do all the nasty little things you wondered about, or wanted to try on
a hairspring...
Discover why this isn't a good solution... Then, call up SLarose, and
buy a new timed "balance complete". The following Bestfit
part numbers apply:
611 - Regular
612 - Incabloc
748 - Shoc Resist
613 - Super Shoc Resist
614 - Breguet (e.g. overcoil)
Ought to cost less than $20.
-Chuck
-----
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
cfha...@erols.com
The Baron
I think it depends upon what type of screwdrivers you have. Mine are
hollow ground and have straight sides and ARE correct for this fit.
Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3A575C79...@erols.com...
> K.M.
ABC
wrotd:
>K.M.
>
>Well, if you just want to play, using the shortened hairspring can
>be an interesting exercise. Reattach the stud to the broken end,
>and rotate the collet around until the watch is back in beat. A
>small oiler stuck in the slot on the collet will do in a pinch. Your
>smallest screwdriver is NOT a good idea, as the angled tip will just
>bung the edges of the collet, and may slip.
B4 I stick this oiler in, do you think the smaller blue oiler will be
strong enough for the job? You know the AS 1187 has a collet about 1/2
mm thick.
>
>Discover why this isn't a good solution... Then, call up SLarose, and
>buy a new timed "balance complete". The following Bestfit
>part numbers apply:
>
>611 - Regular
>612 - Incabloc
>748 - Shoc Resist
>613 - Super Shoc Resist
>614 - Breguet (e.g. overcoil)
>
>Ought to cost less than $20.
Do you have a book with all these wonde ful information? Where can I
find one?
>-Chuck
>-----
>Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
>cfha...@erols.com
>
>BC wrote:
>>
>> O.K. So I broke the hair spring on my AS 1187 practice movement.
>>
>> The hair sping is broken just at the stud. This makes it about 2 mm
>> too short. If I just stud the shortened hairspring, the balance is not
>> in beat.
>>
>> I heard there is a process of re-timing a broken hairspring. See H.
>> Fried'.s Watch repairer's Manual p.255.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me how this is done to re-use the broken hairspring??
>>
>> I know I can but a replacemement 1187 balance cock comploete. This is
>> a practice so I want ot have a go at fixing it.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> K.M.
>>
>> Please do not reply by email
>> Reply yo NG
K.M.
Do not reply by email. Reply to Newsgroup
Chuck Harris
> B4 I stick this oiler in, do you think the smaller blue oiler will be
> strong enough for the job? You know the AS 1187 has a collet about 1/2
> mm thick.
Pick the biggest one that will fit. The collet is not that tight
a fit, and as you gently turn the oiler, the camming action of the
oiler in the split will make it even less tight. Do pith the oiler
first, as you really do NOT want any oil on the collet!
OBTW,
if the oiler starts to wind up, and the collet isn't moving, don't
just try and force it. With watches and other fine machinery, forcing
things will just cause you to break things. Try the other direction.
As the Baron says, a screwdriver is fine, IF it is "hollow ground"
That is, ground so that the flats are arcs, rather than planes. That
makes flats parallel at the tip. It is a better way for a screwdriver
to be made, and is also not the way most of the
finer screwdrivers come :-(
> >
> >Discover why this isn't a good solution... Then, call up SLarose, and
> >buy a new timed "balance complete". The following Bestfit
> >part numbers apply:
> >
> >611 - Regular
> >612 - Incabloc
> >748 - Shoc Resist
> >613 - Super Shoc Resist
> >614 - Breguet (e.g. overcoil)
> >
> >Ought to cost less than $20.
> Do you have a book with all these wonde ful information? Where can I
> find one?
This came out of a very old and very worn copy of "Bestfit 111
Encyclopedia of Watch Material", Part 1. Used copies show up on
Ebay from time to time. Tom at www.dashto.com has copies occasionally.
You can get a new reprint from SLarose for big money. About $75, if
I recall. The 111, and 111A cover mostly Swiss Ebauche movements.
They also have a section on Hamilton pocket watches. For pocket
watches, a good book is Swigart's "Illustrated Manual of American
Watch Movements". It is available from SLarose for $10 or so.
Chuck Harris
I wish my Bergeon screwdrivers were hollow ground, just on principal.
However, I haven't found that being angle ground is that big a
handicap. Problems only show up when I get lazy and decide that
one size fits all. Fortunately, I successfully resist that temptation
most of the time.
-Chuck
Lyle A. Waisman
the driver so it can be sharpened on a circular stone in your lathe. It keeps
both sides of the tip parallel to the stone, and creates a great hollow ground
profile. I can send you a picture if you want to know what to look for.
I also use a Hormec screwdriver sharpener. This is the perfect solution, but
only accepts drivers up to a certain size, so I use the Moseley for my larger
ones. The Hormec is quite possibly the best tool I have ever seen for
screwdriver sharpening, and is still available new, but for close to $250. I
can send you a website if you're interested.
-LAW
The Baron
My Bergeon screwdrivers were not hollow ground when I purchased them but
I use my lathe/mill with a small diameter stone, works well.
I believe John Wilding, in one of his books, shows how to make a simple
jig for this purpose.
Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3A58A77D...@erols.com...
ABC
K,M,
On 07 Jan 2001 18:05:16 GMT, pktwa...@aol.comnospam (Lyle A.
Waisman) wrotd:
K.M.
Lyle A. Waisman
these.
http://www.uhrmacherwerkzeug.de/Schraubendreher/schraubendreher.html
For pictures, I need an email address.
-LAW
Justin Koullapis
rather than by lightening it, Baron!
The Baron
the wheel heavier. Changing screws, depending upon the weight of the
screws, will make the wheel heavier or lighter. Adding timing washers will
ALWAYS make the wheel HEAVIER. If you go back and read my e-mail with a
different attitude you will find there was little reason for you to write
yours.
Justin Koullapis <jau...@SPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93f00c$l9q$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
Chuck Harris
I read it that way at first too... and then decided that you were
not being dense, but rather were trying to be complete in your
description
of what could be done to a balance.
-Chuck
-----
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
cfha...@erols.com
The Baron
textbook answer(and sometimes still do) but finally realized that this often
confuses the writer, they usually just want a simple answer, sometimes you
cannot give one.
As you also know, many basic concepts must be understood before any work
should commence, however often the writer has already broken something
before they ask a question.
Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3A5B22D0...@erols.com...
Darryl Bryant
>
> As was my intention Chuck. I have, in the past, tried to give a near
> textbook answer(and sometimes still do) but finally realized that this often
> confuses the writer, they usually just want a simple answer, sometimes you
> cannot give one.
> As you also know, many basic concepts must be understood before any work
> should commence, however often the writer has already broken something
> before they ask a question.
>
too many times :-(, like the fella who bought me a chiming mantle clock to
repair, but of course he tried to fix it himself first, so he undid the 4
screws to take the movement out, unfortunately these were the 4 screws for
the back plate on a fully wound movement, somehow he still had his fingers
and a rather startled look in his face, you can guess what the movement
looked like.
dAz
Justin Koullapis
rather than with a bee in my bonnet. There is no doubt, from reading your
posts, that you actually know what you're talking about!
JJK
ABC
hours a day!! Moving the regulator fully either way make only a small
difference to the rate. I guess this is the sign of an originally
good movement.
So I think I need to put weight to it. Assuming I can find the
washer( can I make them?), where should I put it?? Anywhere as long
as I do them in pairs symmetrically??
Help.
( Does this also mean that this is not the normal routine in watch
cleaning?)
K.M.
On Sat, 06 Jan 2001 17:03:37 GMT, "The Baron" <theb...@flash.net>
wrote:
ABC
But does this also change the 'point of attachment ' of the
hairspring?
The Ballance does have screws ( without slots). Now which one is the
'mean time screw '? Do I just turn it out? Couldn't find this one in
the books.
Thanks
K.M.
On Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:57:13 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com>
wrote:
The Baron
Justin Koullapis <jau...@SPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93hk7s$b8t$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
Chuck Harris
Yep, it does change the point of attachment, and as such, the
watch will perform a little differently in positions, than it did
before. It is also probable that its isochronous behavior will be
changed, as well.
There is a set of tools that look like small pin vises. They clamp
on the head of the screw and allow them to be turned out. Some watches
cheat, and the screws aren't really screws, but just cosmetic. Look
closely, and see if there is screw material showing on the inside of the
wheel.
The "mean time screws" are generally those that are an extension of the
wheel's two arms. On a compensated balance (one with a slit thru the
wheel at each arm) the mean time screw may actually be about 10 degrees
forward of the arm, toward the cut end of the wheel. I doubt that your
wheel is temperature compensated.
Look closely at the screws that are extensions from the arms. Do they
have threads showing on both sides of the wheel? In other words, are
the threads much longer than just enough to pass thru the wheel? If
they are, then they are meant to be adjusted by turning them in or out.
Always loosen, or tighten both of these screws EXACTLY the same amount!
To do otherwise will throw the balance out of poise, and really screw
up the vertical positions timing.
Now, things get a little dicey! You need a balance scaffold to work on
these screws safely. The scaffold is a fixture made of steel, or brass
that supports the wheel's circumference on a couple of pins, and has a
platform to support the cock. You can easily make one by brazing an
ordinary washer to another larger washer at 90 degrees (e.g.. to form
a "T". File the top edge of the upright washer flat, and make the
distance between the edge of the washer's hole, and the flat top a
little
longer than the balance's radius. Drill two small holes below the
flat to hold pins that the balance will hang from. Kind of like
hanging
a wagon wheel from a couple of pegs in the wall. The separation of the
pins should be the same as the space between two screws on the wheel.
The diameter of the pins should be small enough to fit between the screw
shafts.
Note, like all things about watches, your scaffold must not be magnetic!
_________
/ o o \
/ ---- \
| / \ |
| \ / |
\ ---- /
\ /
===================
===================
For a watch this size, 3/4" brass washers with a 5/16" hole should be
about right. If you use brass, solder will work just fine.
Balance washers come in assortments. They are packaged by weight, so
you can get a pair that are the same weight. Although I would NEVER
do this ;-) , you can get by on a practice watch with bits of fine
copper
wire, cut to exactly the same length, and bent to a circle that just
fits
the screw shaft. No need to tighten the screws much at all!
Good luck!
-Chuck
-----
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
cfha...@erols.com
The Baron
is not a ''normal'' cleaning but could be in the area of normal repair.
Even in the 1930's watchmakers could and did send balance wheels off to be
vibrated by a specialist.
Although called ''timing'' washers they are probably used as much to
''balance'' the balance wheel, say after replacing the staff. As I said
earlier, I do not repair watches made after the early 1940's so I could not
tell you where to obtain timing washers for your watch, ebay, NAWCC Marts,
etc. material house? The assortment I have is for 18s, 16s, and 12s pocket
watches. They are listed as -1,-2, -3 min./24 hours.
There is a procedure as to where to start placement of these washers and or
screws(if needed). One of Fried's, or De Carle's books should give you all
the information you need. You can make them, ugh !(instructions in the
books) if you can find brass shim stock thin enough or you will need to
reduce the thickness. I have never measured the thickness of a washer but
think it must be .001'' or less.
The mean time screws can also be adjusted and may be all that is needed if
there is enough room on the threads. They are the different looking screws
that attach to the balance wheel where the balance arm connects to the
wheel. Adjust them the same amount say 1/2 turn and see what happens. Make
further adjustments as required.
The situation here is that by shortening the spring you have made a
''dramatic'' change to the rate. Timing washers, screws and mean time
adjustments were not necessarily made to correct such changes.
ABC <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:iklo5tk29li7vts7o...@4ax.com...
Darryl Bryant
>
>
> There is a procedure as to where to start placement of these washers and or
> screws(if needed). One of Fried's, or De Carle's books should give you all
> the information you need. You can make them, ugh !(instructions in the
> books) if you can find brass shim stock thin enough or you will need to
> reduce the thickness. I have never measured the thickness of a washer but
> think it must be .001'' or less.
he can try a hobby shop that sells rod, tube and flat brass sheet, there is
a packet of assorted shim brass that might be thin enough.
>
> The mean time screws can also be adjusted and may be all that is needed if
> there is enough room on the threads. They are the different looking screws
> that attach to the balance wheel where the balance arm connects to the
> wheel. Adjust them the same amount say 1/2 turn and see what happens. Make
> further adjustments as required.
>
that model doesn't have timing screws or even slots in the screw heads, so
he will have to use a balance screw pin vice to take the screws out.
should we mention the poising problems he is going to have? or just wait
until he gets there.
dAz
The Baron
complete balance assembly were available it would be best to replace the
unit. However as a learning experience these problems might be of some
value.
The balance may turn out to look like a Rube Goldberg creation but may rate
to within a minute or two per day. Working on an Elgin 7J pocket watch or a
37s auto clock would have been easier, for a first attempt.
Darryl Bryant <da...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:3A5D0210...@zip.com.au...
The Baron
I forgot to thank you. It also appears you have some knowledge of the
subject as well.
Justin Koullapis <jau...@SPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93hk7s$b8t$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
ABC
from Dashto( plus other things). If i can anticipate the problem I can
order everything altogther.
BTW, Do I have to add weight evenly all round the wheel, or just
symmetrically on each opposite side?
K.M.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:51:48 GMT, "The Baron" <theb...@flash.net>
wrote:
>I should think just wait. As mentioned at the beginning, if a spring or
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG
Chuck Harris
>
> Please tell me the problem. I am actually ordering a poising tool NOW
> from Dashto( plus other things). If i can anticipate the problem I can
> order everything altogther.
>
> BTW, Do I have to add weight evenly all round the wheel, or just
> symmetrically on each opposite side?
Basically, the problem is as follows:
The washers that you use, if you cobble them together, are very likely
to be slightly different weight. Since you are fixing the meantime of
the balance, you will only use 2 washers, of equal weight, under the
screws at the ends of the 2 spokes on the balance.
I, am, of course, assuming that this balance has 2 spokes, and not 3.
And, it is also nice to imagine that the balance was in poise
originally,
but in less you check, you will never know.
Further, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to find a washer
pair that exactly puts your balance in time. So, you will pick a pair
that makes the balance go slightly slow, and take a screw slot file, and
start to file a slot in the screws that hold the washers. Since even
the
best pro cannot file the slots exactly the same, you will either have to
settle for a slight poise error, and its attending effect on the
vertical
positions, or assemble, and disassemble the balance a whole lot while
you zero in on the proper poise and timing combination.
If you had a timing machine, you could do this much more quickly, as
you can easily see the effect of the minor variations in poise caused
by the adjustments to the timing screws. You still have to install
and remove the balance/cock assy. rather a lot.
Hard to justify the effort (except as a learning exercise) when there
are $20 timed balance completes available.
ABC
Thanks. So this is my shopping list:
Poising tool
Washers and lots of them
screw slot file or small grinding stone
balance screw remover or ultra small pin vice(in existence?)
Truing caliper??
vibrograf $$$$$
Anything else? Please suggest.
K.M.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:48:33 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com>
wrotd:
>Basically, the problem is as follows:
K.M.
Lyle A. Waisman
>
>Poising tool
>Washers and lots of them
>screw slot file or small grinding stone
>balance screw remover or ultra small pin vice(in existence?)
>
>Truing caliper??
>vibrograf $$$$$
>
>Anything else? Please suggest.
>
>K.M.
Balance screw undercutters
Balance scaffold
Glass jar & one-dip
"Timing Manipulations" - Hamilton
"Practical Balance & Hairspring Work" - Kleinlein
-LAW
ABC
is there such a tool as a collet remover and installer?
Where can I find a parts seller selling complete balance set , on the
internet?
Thanks
K.M.
On 12 Jan 2001 00:00:27 GMT, pktwa...@aol.comnospam (Lyle A.
Waisman) wrote:
>>Thanks. So this is my shopping list:
>>
>>Poising tool
>>Washers and lots of them
>>screw slot file or small grinding stone
>>balance screw remover or ultra small pin vice(in existence?)
>>
>>Truing caliper??
>>vibrograf $$$$$
>>
>>>Balance screw undercutters
>Balance scaffold
>Glass jar & one-dip
>"Timing Manipulations" - Hamilton
>"Practical Balance & Hairspring Work" - Kleinlein
>
>-LAW
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG
Lyle A. Waisman
>is there such a tool as a collet remover and installer?
>
>Where can I find a parts seller selling complete balance set , on the
>internet?
>
>Thanks
>
>K.M.
I could be wrong, so anyone correct me otherwise.
There are collet removers and collet adjusters. You could probably find both of
these. Collet removers are like little oyster forks. Many 'pros' tho, just use
a screwdriver, usually a special one sharpened a bit differently from those for
driving screws, and roughened a bit to catch the edges. If you place the driver
in the gap and twist, you can get the collet off that way.
There are also tools to tighten a loose collet.
To put it back on... staking set.
There are also hairspring indexes, which is a small platform that shows you for
a variety of movements (usually American pocket) what angle the stud should be
at in regard to the roller jewel. (I'm looking for one of these if any of the
people reading this happen to have a spare.)
No matter what you want to do to a watch, odds are someone made a specialized
tool to do it.
-LAW
Chuck Harris
>
> Oh, what do I need to remove and install the collet?
> is there such a tool as a collet remover and installer?
>
> Where can I find a parts seller selling complete balance set , on the
> internet?
Hi,
Take the numbers I gave you earlier, and contact SLaRose.
1-888-SLAROSE
or
They are friendly. They will want to know the movement maker,
caliber, Bestfit part number, description, and quantity.
Say something like:
One No. 6XX Balance Complete, A.S. Cal XXXX
As to the collet, some use a watch screwdriver that has had the tip
ground so it has parallel faces for about 1.5mm. You insert the tool
in the collet's slot, and twist while lifting slightly. The collet
will wind its way off the staff.
I use a tool that is described in Fried's book. It is made from 1/16"
drill rod, and has a point like for the above screwdriver on one end,
and
a curved point like a sharp crowbar on the other. Usually I "wind"
the collet off. But sometimes, prying works better. They are never
all that hard to get off.
To put collets back on, I use my staking set, but with finger pressure
on the stake, never a hammer. If you don't have a staking set, you
can use a bench block (has lots of holes) and a small pin vice to
press the collet over the staff. Care must be exercised not to touch
the staff's pivots with ANYTHING!
Darryl Bryant
>
> Oh, what do I need to remove and install the collet?
> is there such a tool as a collet remover and installer
you can easily make one, a tapered wedge works really well, just lightly
press into the collet slot will loosen it, you can then turn the collet for
beat adjustment or remove the hairspring from the staff.
I made a couple of sizes to suit pocket and wristwatches, just a piece of
steel wire set into a brass handle, but a specially ground screwdriver will
do the job just as well.
pick a blade that is the thickness of the collet, so when its used there is
no possibility it will touch the hairspring, grind the blade with a taper
instead of the normal flat tip, the the thick end should be thicker than
the collet slot, next grind a long taper the length of the blade.
to use, put the balance complete on a bench block with a hole just big
enough to clear the roller, hold the tool upright and with the thick end of
the wedge towards the balance staff LIGHTLY press into the collet slot, you
may need to grind the wedge until it works properly, the idea is the wedge
just opens the collet enough to free it from the staff, so you dont want
the wedge too thick otherwise it will distort the collet and give you a new
set problems.
to remove the hairspring from the balance just twist and lift, slide a pair
of tweezers to free the collet from the wedge.
>
> Where can I find a parts seller selling complete balance set , on the
> internet?
>
cheers
dAz
ABC
You are absolutely right. See here for collet install and remover, and
a very beautiful studding table.
http://www.tztoolshop.com/FB_Catalog_Miscellaneous_Tools_2.html
K.M.
On 12 Jan 2001 17:08:33 GMT, pktwa...@aol.comnospam (Lyle A.
Waisman) wrote:
>There are collet removers and collet adjusters. You could probably find both of
>these. Collet removers are like little oyster forks. Many 'pros' tho, just use
>a screwdriver, usually a special one sharpened a bit differently from those for
>driving screws, and roughened a bit to catch the edges. If you place the driver
>in the gap and twist, you can get the collet off that way.
>
>No matter what you want to do to a watch, odds are someone made a specialized
>tool to do it.
>
>-LAW
Please do not reply by email
Reply yo NG