Seiko Kinetic gear stiff
Douglas Hall
because it's been in a while, and although not holding charge, that's
probably down to the problem I'm about to describe.
I could hear and feel there was something amiss that occurred fairly
recently - wrist movement didn't seem to be driving the oscillating weight.
Normally you'd be able to hear the gear being turned but it wasn't doing
that. I'd already bought a new capacitor (well one of the new Li-Ion
replacements) so I was ready to change it.
When I took the back off, I noticed that the weight was quite stiff to
move - but the problem seems to be in the small, off-center gear that the
central gear that attaches to the weight, turns. That seems very stiff. I've
ordered some of the oil referenced in the 5M42 service PDF (Mobius 'A' from
memory) and that's yet to arrive (seems quite rare). Is it likely I'll have
to do some further dismantling, or is there a possibility that simply
lubrication of this gear will free it up?
Thanks for any advice.
dAz
one of the early models (don't remember which) had a habit of shearing
off the pinion on the generator rotor until Seiko changed the specs to
beef up the part in question.
anyway just oiling it is not going to solve the problem, for one you
cannot get to the lower pivots without dismantling the movement, the
ballraced rotor doesn't normally seize unless it is really dirty, the
intermediate wheel and generating rotor could also be sticky and unless
you find the problem and remove the dirt, just putting oil on the pivot
will just make it worse, think of the paste they use when the valves are
reground in your car.
Mobius A or Synt-A-Lube 9010 is one of the most common oils in the
industry, not rare at all
in short your watch needs a service.
Douglas Hall
news:466b2e4f$0$30511$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Douglas Hall wrote:
>> I've been replacing the capacitor in one of my Seiko Kinetics, mainly
>> really because it's been in a while, and although not holding charge,
>> that's probably down to the problem I'm about to describe.
>>
>> I could hear and feel there was something amiss that occurred fairly
>> recently - wrist movement didn't seem to be driving the oscillating
>> weight. Normally you'd be able to hear the gear being turned but it
>> wasn't doing that. I'd already bought a new capacitor (well one of the
>> new Li-Ion replacements) so I was ready to change it.
>>
>> When I took the back off, I noticed that the weight was quite stiff to
>> move - but the problem seems to be in the small, off-center gear that the
>> central gear that attaches to the weight, turns. That seems very stiff.
>> I've ordered some of the oil referenced in the 5M42 service PDF (Mobius
>> 'A' from memory) and that's yet to arrive (seems quite rare). Is it
>> likely I'll have to do some further dismantling, or is there a
>> possibility that simply lubrication of this gear will free it up?
>
> one of the early models (don't remember which) had a habit of shearing off
> the pinion on the generator rotor until Seiko changed the specs to beef up
> the part in question.
I think it still turns, because with the oscillating weight attached, it's
stiff, but turns.
> anyway just oiling it is not going to solve the problem, for one you
> cannot get to the lower pivots without dismantling the movement, the
> ballraced rotor doesn't normally seize unless it is really dirty, the
> intermediate wheel and generating rotor could also be sticky and unless
> you find the problem and remove the dirt, just putting oil on the pivot
> will just make it worse, think of the paste they use when the valves are
> reground in your car.
>
> Mobius A or Synt-A-Lube 9010 is one of the most common oils in the
> industry, not rare at all
Well I'm only really repeating the comments from a watchmaker supply company
in the UK, who I've got it on order with - because it's not currently in
stock. And it had to be a special order, because they don't list it
normally, I had to specifically enquire about it and they had to look into
it before providing a special order for it - in fact it still hasn't been
dispatched, yet. It's specifically "Mobius A" that I've requested.
> in short your watch needs a service.
Well no argument, there. However I suspect I'm not really sufficiently
experienced, or have all the correct tools for it. And if I send it off for
servicing, I suspect they'll almost certainly just replace the movement. The
reason I'm saying that is that I sent an (almost) identical (albeit newer by
a few years) version of the watch for service, specifically mentioning that
I suspected the capacitor had gone bad - never really showing full charge,
and not holding charge. In all other respects, it worked - I could hear the
oscillating weight rotate freely. They simply replaced the movement in it -
or at least that's what the service report said.
I have one of the Seiko energy supplier units, so I guess I could put the
few components I've dissassembled, back together again, forget about the
mechanical aspect to the Kinetic movement, and simply regularly charge it on
the YT02 unit. Or send it in for service, in which case I suspect they'll
simply replace the movement.
John S.
wrote:
I guess the question to be asked at this point is whether it is worth
sending the watch off for movement repair/replacement or just buying a
new watch.
I understand that Seiko and a couple of after-market companies make a
base unit for charging kinetic watches. I believe it uses inductive
charging like that used on automatic toothbrushes. That option may be
a lot less expensive than a complete repair and give you several more
years of use.
That Seiko had to come up with a mains base charger for a watch that
is supposed to keep itself charged for months on end is indicative of
a basic design flaw imho.
Douglas Hall
news:1181832601.8...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I guess the question to be asked at this point is whether it is worth
> sending the watch off for movement repair/replacement or just buying a
> new watch.
Well the only reason I have this watch, and the newer model that's virtually
identical, is because of how it looks - it's a kind of art deco looking
watch. And I'm pretty sure that particular case isn't available, now. Plus,
I have a newer almost identical version that's working fine - the only
difference being the colour of the face (grey as opposed to an almost black
colour, and the newer version having no minute markings other than the
luminescent dots).
The watch with the problem is the older one, that I used to wear daily.
I could put the original capacitor back in, replace the capacitor in the
newer watch with the Li-Ion cell, and send this problematic one in for
service.
> I understand that Seiko and a couple of after-market companies make a
> base unit for charging kinetic watches. I believe it uses inductive
> charging like that used on automatic toothbrushes.
I have one already - it's the Seiko Energy supplier unit (YT02).
> That option may be
> a lot less expensive than a complete repair and give you several more
> years of use.
I did consider this (see my other reply).
> That Seiko had to come up with a mains base charger for a watch that
> is supposed to keep itself charged for months on end is indicative of
> a basic design flaw imho.
Well in fairness:-
1. They don't all keep themselves charged for months on end (although
probably do with the newer Li-Ion cells in). Mine both have the 5M42
movement, and the stock spec was around 14 days on full charge. Some of the
earlier Kinetics held less charge, so it's hardly fair to damn the design on
the existing of an induction charger, for watches that in some cases don't
hold leaps-and-bounds more charge / wind that traditional mechanical
automatics.
2. I suspect the energy supplier is perhaps more intended for shops and
traders with a number of Kinetics for sale, so that they can be supplied
fully charged - either that, or those with a few who don't always get
sufficient time to wear them to keep them charged.
3. In fairness, there is an established market for watch winders for
mechanical automatic watches.
I actually think it's a good thing - it allows the charging of Kinetics
without needing to use the mechanics of the charging mechanism.
John S.
I think it calls into question the usefulness of the arm powered
generator methodology of the Kinetic if a plug in charger has to be
used to keep it powered up for any length of time. If a plug-in
charger is really required for kinetic watches then it's probably time
to start looking for a regular battery powered watch.
Douglas Hall
> On Jun 14, 6:47 pm, "Douglas Hall"
>> > is supposed to keep itself charged for months on end is indicative of
>> > a basic design flaw imho.
>>
>> Well in fairness:-
>>
>> 1. They don't all keep themselves charged for months on end (although
>> probably do with the newer Li-Ion cells in). Mine both have the 5M42
>> movement, and the stock spec was around 14 days on full charge. Some of
>> the
>> earlier Kinetics held less charge, so it's hardly fair to damn the design
>> on
>> the existing of an induction charger, for watches that in some cases
>> don't
>> hold leaps-and-bounds more charge / wind that traditional mechanical
>> automatics.
>> 2. I suspect the energy supplier is perhaps more intended for shops and
>> traders with a number of Kinetics for sale, so that they can be supplied
>> fully charged - either that, or those with a few who don't always get
>> sufficient time to wear them to keep them charged.
>> 3. In fairness, there is an established market for watch winders for
>> mechanical automatic watches.
>>
>> I actually think it's a good thing - it allows the charging of Kinetics
>> without needing to use the mechanics of the charging mechanism.
>
> one has to be used to keep a quartz timed watch powered up for any
> length of time. If a plug-in charger is required then it's probably
> time to start looking for a battery powered watch.
Well as I said, though - it's mainly intended for dealers, really - either
that, or people who have a few, and don't get enough wrist time to keep them
all charged.
I think it's slightly unfair criticism - they haven't marketed it, nor has
it been claimed, that this is required for many / most users. And it's only
really like watch winders for mechanical automatics. And where that's
concerned, you have to bear in mind that many of the early Kinetics only
stored a few days charge (both of mine - 5M42s - only store around 14 days
charge when fully charged, but earlier ones were something like 3-5 days).
So if the Seiko energy unit is such a design concept flaw, then it's no
different for watch winders for mechanical automatic watches.
Also bearing in mind that I suspect it's really more intended for dealers
(you've only got to read the instructions that come with it to come to that
conclusion), and that later Kinetics can store charge for much longer
periods (my wife's, for example, I believe stores up to 6 months charge),
and with the auto relay ones, they kinda go to sleep and energy conservation
when not active for a while - and then can store charge for a small number
of years, I believe.
Don't get me wrong - I get that there are criticisms of the general design
concept of Kinetics - having the complexity, mechanical dependency and
servicibility (largely) of a mechanic automatic, just to keep them charged.
And that many see it as a nut that doesn't need cracking - especially given
that some of the early Kinetics had some suspect capcitors whose life was
quite probably no better than some long-life batteries.
Much of that is largely fair criticism, and those watches that achieve this
energy capture / storage by solid-state means (ie solar charging) seem a
more robust proposition.
But in fairness to the energy supplier unit, it's no more indicative of a
design flaw than watch-winders for mechanical automatics, when you consider
the (design) performance of the early Kinetics, and the likely intended
users of the unit / charger.
Douglas Hall
>
> I think it calls into question the usefulness of the arm powered
> generator methodology of the Kinetic if a plug in charger has to be
> used to keep it powered up for any length of time.
Yes, yes, yes <sigh> so you keep /wrongly/ saying, completely ignoring or
misunderstanding everything I've been saying about them.
> If a plug-in
> charger is really required for kinetic watches
It's not /required/.
See - right there - is the fundamental flaw in your repeated argument,
again, and again.
It's no more required, than watch-winders are required for mechanical
automatic watches.
> then it's probably time
> to start looking for a regular battery powered watch.
... and that's what happens when you draw a conclusion on a falsely inferred
premise.
But as you mention it, anyway, I've got several of those, too.