Pivot points and cup jewels for Schatz
Dan Dubosky
After the pendulum stops, the electrical mechanism continues running the
clock at an increased speed so I suspect that it is OK. One of the pivot
points has a flat spot, and I suspect that it is the problem. Can anyone
tell me where I can purchase pivot points and cup jewels for this clock?
Dan
The Baron
"Dan Dubosky" <dub...@DELETETHIS.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Hj3ne.13491$w21....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Frank Adam
This is the round usually beige and gold color wall clock, which
swings on a wall bracket, right ?
Larose had those jewels advertised in one of their fliers a year or
two ago, but it's not listed (or i couldnt' find it) on their homepage
now. www.slarose.com
But try them, they may laugh at you, but oh well. :) If i recall they
were going for a fair whack.. so have your wallet padded.
If all else fails, you may be able to get jewel bars and use the cup
jewels out of them. They're actually not that steep pricewise to not
take a desperate punt on.
http://www.slarose.com/cgi-bin/slarose/081103.html
As for the pivots, you should be able to just reshape them in a lathe,
or even make up a couple of new ones.
Good luck, those things can be a pig to fix.
--
Regards, Frank
Dan Dubosky
type point which fits into the cup. It is the point about which the
pendulum pivots. In the case of this clock, there are two of them.
"The Baron" <theb...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:dZ5ne.3910$iA6....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Dan Dubosky
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:ugup91dp56vjvvfop...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 31 May 2005 19:56:23 GMT, "Dan Dubosky"
> <dub...@DELETETHIS.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I have a Schatz swinging clock which stops swinging after a short while.
>>After the pendulum stops, the electrical mechanism continues running the
>>clock at an increased speed so I suspect that it is OK. One of the pivot
>>points has a flat spot, and I suspect that it is the problem. Can anyone
>>tell me where I can purchase pivot points and cup jewels for this clock?
>>
> This is the round usually beige and gold color wall clock, which
> swings on a wall bracket, right ?
>
This one is actually black and gold. The clock is above the pivots and the
pendulum is below the pivots. The entire clock swings around the pivot
points.
> Larose had those jewels advertised in one of their fliers a year or
> two ago, but it's not listed (or i couldnt' find it) on their homepage
> now. www.slarose.com
>
> But try them, they may laugh at you, but oh well. :) If i recall they
> were going for a fair whack.. so have your wallet padded.
>
> If all else fails, you may be able to get jewel bars and use the cup
> jewels out of them. They're actually not that steep pricewise to not
> take a desperate punt on.
> http://www.slarose.com/cgi-bin/slarose/081103.html
>
> As for the pivots, you should be able to just reshape them in a lathe,
> or even make up a couple of new ones.
>
> Good luck, those things can be a pig to fix.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Frank
Thanks for the response and all of the info. I may try reshaping the ball
bearing type points, but I was hoping to not having to do that. Perhaps
when I see the price on new ones, I may change my mind.
Dan
Frank Adam
<dub...@DELETETHIS.earthlink.net> wrote:
>> This is the round usually beige and gold color wall clock, which
>> swings on a wall bracket, right ?
>
>This one is actually black and gold. The clock is above the pivots and the
>pendulum is below the pivots. The entire clock swings around the pivot
>points.
>
Now that you mention it, yes i've seen black ones too.
It also has a small pendulum on the movement itself, hanging at the
back,out of sight. From memory it looks like three oval-ish cast iron
plates bolted together. Quite heavy for it's size.
Btw, don't discount the movement itself needing a service. A lot
depends on that little weight being swung left and right with enough
force. Of course being in beat is very important too.
Like with all these swinging type clocks, they can be very marginal
and everything must be in good order.
--
Regards, Frank
dAz
yep, Schatz Queen Anne, looks like a banjo swinging on a wall bracket.
http://www.timewilltell.ca/wallclocks/swinger1-1.jpg
yes if the pivots are damaged and the cups pitted the clock will not run.
ok first thing check the jewel cups, use a sharp pin and run the point
around in the jewel cup, it should feel smooth, if you can feel pitting
in the jewel cup then you need to replace it.
the jewel cup were available in two ways, the older style the jewel was
held in with a screw, use a socket spanner to remove the nut that holds
the jewel cup to the frame, now look at the threaded end of the cup and
see if it has a screw (it will be a grub screw), if it does you can
unscrew and remove this screw (don't lose it!!) then the jewel will push
out, to replace put the new jewel in with the cup the right way up :)
in the latter type of jewel cups the jewel was pressed or glued in, the
old jewel will need to be driven out and the new one glued in after
cleaning up the jewel holder.
now for jewels, Schatz used to sell the jewels and then later the
complete cup assembly with new holding nuts, now someone like S.laRose
may still have these in stock.
if not then you can use the jewels out of a jewel bar ($20-$25 laRose)
used on the Junghans swingers, the jewels are close to the same size,
you may need to modify the cup for the jewel to fit.
for the pivot points, again S.laRose may still have some, if not then a
ball out of a ball point pen will work, or make a complete new pivot
point out of blue steel wire.
last use a light oil in the cup, a drop in each will suffice.
dAz
http://www.slarose.com/
http://www.slarose.com/cgi-bin/slarose/081103.html
http://www.timesavers.com/
dAz
yeah they were available in several colours and styles, the older clocks
used a mechanical movement with solenoid rewinding powered by a "D"
battery, later movements had a electic drive using a system the same as
the fake pendulum quartz clocks do today, and I think there was a quartz
version with fake pendulum action (the earlier types used the whole
clock as the pendulum much in the same way as those Junghans swingers)
the beat setting was simple, there is a flat spring arm pivoted from the
mounting hole for the movement going to a large knurled nut above the
movement, there is a rack that engages with this arm that allows the nut
to be moved left or right to set the beat, also the nut itself could be
changed for a heavier or lighter one depending on the battery used,
Alkaline batteries are heavier than carbon batteries and changing the
weight of the battery affects the timekeeping quite badly (except for
the Quartz movement)
also the risk of using a cheap carbon battery in those clocks was asking
for trouble, the battery is mounted above the movement and if it leaks
.... well the result is not nice.
Dan Dubosky
have described exactly) does swing back and forth with the same force that
it did in the past. As I recall, when the pendulum stopped, it made a
significant noise in its movement, but it doesn't anymore.
I even went so far as to look at the waveform at the output of what is
probably a semiconductor amplifier to see what was driving the coil that
moves the weight. The voltage waveform has a peak-to-peak amplitude of 1.5
volts which is all I would expect from an amplifier that has a supply
voltage of 1.5 volts. Then again, the capacitor that couples that voltage
to the coil could be bad.
There does appear to be mechanical problems also. See my response to dAz.
Thanks again.
Dan
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message
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Dan Dubosky
"dAz" <dazb@zipDOTcomDOTau> wrote in message
news:429d1195$0$5176$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
This one doesn't have any solenoid, but it does have a D battery which
supplies voltage to a circuit which in turn drives the weight which Frank
has accurately described.
I didn't know that the weight on the spring arm had anything to do with
beat. I thought it was used to simply adjust the clock to be perfectly
vertical when there is no movement. These swinging clocks are certainly
complicated. This weight on the spring arm has never been changed, so the D
battery required is a standard one. As you have stated, if an alkaline is
used, the clock can never be properly regulated. I found that out in the
past.
Dan Dubosky
"dAz" <dazb@zipDOTcomDOTau> wrote in message
Thanks for your really helpful comments.
When I look down in these jewel cups, I don't really see any jewels, but do
see some holes where I believe jewels were probably inserted and glued. The
threaded end of the cup has its hole filled with what appears to be glue.
I have no idea what could have happened to the jewels, and it is strange
that both of them would be gone. At the bottom of the hole where I think
there may have been jewels, there is what appears to be metal of the same
color as the ball bearing type point. Would the jewels be red in color as
in most watches?
I can see that this clock is going to be a real challenge to get it working
again. I certainly appreciate all of the help you have given. If I ever
get it working again, I'll be certain to let the group know.
Thanks again.
Dan
dAz
>
> Thanks for your really helpful comments.
>
> When I look down in these jewel cups, I don't really see any jewels, but do
> see some holes where I believe jewels were probably inserted and glued. The
> threaded end of the cup has its hole filled with what appears to be glue.
yep thats the latter version (read cheaper, some penny pincher decided
to save a few cents)
>
> I have no idea what could have happened to the jewels, and it is strange
> that both of them would be gone. At the bottom of the hole where I think
> there may have been jewels, there is what appears to be metal of the same
> color as the ball bearing type point. Would the jewels be red in color as
> in most watches?
no the jewel is there, generally Schatz used clear coloured sapphire
cups, so with the glue behind them it would appear dark, use a pin to
test the jewel cup, just run the point around in the cup, it should feel
smooth like glass, if you feel any roughness at the bottom of the cup
then the jewel is pitted and need to be replaced.
the pivots ends are a small ball bearing about the size of a medium bic
ball point from memory, if either of the points are flat or damaged
again they will have to be replaced, in fact running a damaged point in
the cup will eventually damage the jewel
these pivot points are quite important, if dirty or damaged the clock
will not run properly if at all, because of the weight of the clock is
quite heavy and all that weight is on those two points.
>
> I can see that this clock is going to be a real challenge to get it working
> again. I certainly appreciate all of the help you have given. If I ever
> get it working again, I'll be certain to let the group know.
>
good, looking forward to your report
dAz
>
> This one doesn't have any solenoid, but it does have a D battery which
> supplies voltage to a circuit which in turn drives the weight which Frank
> has accurately described.
ok, you have the second incarnation of those clocks, made somewhere
around the late 70s, the first versions used a mechanically wound
movement with a solenoid flicking the drive spring arm back every couple
of minutes, quite a distinctive click, you would know if you had one.
>
> I didn't know that the weight on the spring arm had anything to do with
> beat. I thought it was used to simply adjust the clock to be perfectly
> vertical when there is no movement. These swinging clocks are certainly
> complicated. This weight on the spring arm has never been changed, so the D
> battery required is a standard one. As you have stated, if an alkaline is
> used, the clock can never be properly regulated. I found that out in the
> past.
>
>
well if the movement is installed correctly, then yes you do adjust the
spring arm so the clock is vertical, also when the clock is running
listen to the tick sounds, is should sound an even tick-tick-tick, not a
long - short sound, if the sound is not even you can tweak the beat by
moving the spring left or right.
actually on those electronic movement like yours, just mount the clock
on the bracket with the dial facing the wall, adjust the spring arm so
the clock hangs vertical, and see if the magnet is in the middle of the
coil, then you can start the clock and watch and see how it runs.
when those clocks first came out, alkaline batteries were not around,
latter most clock manufactures started either providing their own brand
(rebadged) of alkaline battery or would recommend them, simply because
the shelf life is much longer and are less likely to leak, you would
have to change the large knurled nut/weight on the spring arm for one
thats half the thickness and weight, again I used to have a stack of
those and swap them all the time, but I don't have any more of them, not
a problem for me, I just machine down the old one to suit.
anyway so long as you remember to use a good quality carbon battery and
make sure it's fresh not old stock, also make a note on your calendar to
check the battery in 12 months, the battery can start to leak but the
clock will keep on running, ok
Dan Dubosky
dAz wrote:
> actually on those electronic movement like yours, just mount the clock on
> the bracket with the dial facing the wall, adjust the spring arm so the
> clock hangs vertical, and see if the magnet is in the middle of the coil,
> then you can start the clock and watch and see how it runs.
>
What an excellent idea! Watch it run. While this clock may have some
mechanical problems, I now believe that the primary problem is an electronic
one. Every 20 to 40 seconds (the malfunction is not very periodic), the
swinging magnets are firmly attracted to the coils and remain there for
several swings of the pendulum. Then for no apparent reason, the magnets
start swinging back and forth as one would expect them to. All of this
happens with no apparent change in the amplitude of the pendulum swing. The
coils are positioned in the center of the magnets as closely as I can make
them, and the attraction to the coils when it happens looks very much like a
magnetic attraction and not a physical rubbing anyway.
Am I wrong in concluding that this is an electronic problem? The circuit is
quite a simple one, but solving an intermittent problem is never easy.
Thanks again.
Dan
dAz
well just make sure the magnets do not touch or rub on the coils,
another reason is the movement needs a service, the stickyness could be
caused by the pallets binding on the escape wheel instead just pushing
it around smoothy as it's supposed too.
it could be an electronic problem, but more than likely it's mechanical,
the circuit is very simple, 2 coils are wound together, one is the drive
coil, the other is the sensing coil, a simple transistor switch is used,
when the magnets pass over the sense coil it creates a current to switch
on the transistor, this turns on the drive coil to "kick" the magnets
away thus giving impulse to the clock, once the magnets are pass the
sense coil the transistor is turned off and waits until the magnets pass
again.
I have a pendulum wall clock by Schatz, it uses the same type of
movement as yours does, the only differance is it drives a conventional
pendulum hung from a suspension spring, this clock won't suffer the wear
problem the Queen Anne swingers do in their suspension systems.
it must be close to 30years old now, hasn't missed a beat in that time
and the "D" alkaline battery lasts around 4 years, as I said the circuit
is very simple and reliable, the amount of power to the drive coil is
very small, it certainly does not have the power to hold the magnet and
slave pendulum to one side like that, if it did the battery would not
last long.