Platform escapement orientation
Christopher Tidy
I have just acquired a very old Venner time switch. Probably 50 or 60
years old, at a minimum. It has a beautifully machined platform
escapement in a heavy brass case. I can see a fleck of red at the pivot
of the balance wheel, and wonder if it might be ruby.
These time switches were normally screwed to a wall, which means that
the axle of the balance wheel is horizontal. I am wondering if it will
cause any damage to the mechanism or compromise the timekeeping if I use
the time switch in a horizontal position (that is, with the axle of the
balance wheel vertical). It certainly runs in this orientation, and
there is an adjustment to make it run faster or slower. Can anyone offer
advice on this issue?
Also, there seems to be a lot of oil inside the case. Should I remove
the mechanism from the case and try to clean it off? The case is tight
and keeps the dust out of the oil.
Also, I am looking for a very thin flat screwdriver to suit the screws
on this time switch. The blade needs to be at least 3/16" long, but no
more than 25/1000" thick. Does anyone know of a source for such a
screwdriver?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Many thanks,
Chris Tidy
Frank Adam
<cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>I have just acquired a very old Venner time switch. Probably 50 or 60
>years old, at a minimum. It has a beautifully machined platform
>escapement in a heavy brass case. I can see a fleck of red at the pivot
>of the balance wheel, and wonder if it might be ruby.
>
>These time switches were normally screwed to a wall, which means that
>the axle of the balance wheel is horizontal. I am wondering if it will
>cause any damage to the mechanism or compromise the timekeeping if I use
>the time switch in a horizontal position (that is, with the axle of the
>balance wheel vertical). It certainly runs in this orientation, and
>there is an adjustment to make it run faster or slower. Can anyone offer
>advice on this issue?
>
Not at all. It will actually be happier to run on the end of it's
pivot, but make sure that the jewels are properly cleaned and
lubricated. You do not want to have to search for a balance staff for
that thing. Destructive wear on the staff will be less severe in the
vertical position, but still..
>Also, there seems to be a lot of oil inside the case. Should I remove
>the mechanism from the case and try to clean it off? The case is tight
>and keeps the dust out of the oil.
>
You should probably clean that off, but leaving a slight film of oil
on the casing may help in trapping dust, which would otherwise get
into the next patch of oil it can find(ie: the movement itself).
>Also, I am looking for a very thin flat screwdriver to suit the screws
>on this time switch. The blade needs to be at least 3/16" long, but no
>more than 25/1000" thick. Does anyone know of a source for such a
>screwdriver?
>
Goad.. too early for me to calculate that one into metric. I know, it
is 11AM here, but today that is way too early. :)
Watchmaker supplies, such as www.ofrei.com should have something. Have
a search on that site for their tools.
--
Regards, Frank
Christopher Tidy
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:55:31 +0000, Christopher Tidy
> <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I have just acquired a very old Venner time switch. Probably 50 or 60
>>years old, at a minimum. It has a beautifully machined platform
>>escapement in a heavy brass case. I can see a fleck of red at the pivot
>>of the balance wheel, and wonder if it might be ruby.
>>
>>These time switches were normally screwed to a wall, which means that
>>the axle of the balance wheel is horizontal. I am wondering if it will
>>cause any damage to the mechanism or compromise the timekeeping if I use
>>the time switch in a horizontal position (that is, with the axle of the
>>balance wheel vertical). It certainly runs in this orientation, and
>>there is an adjustment to make it run faster or slower. Can anyone offer
>>advice on this issue?
>>
>
> Not at all. It will actually be happier to run on the end of it's
> pivot, but make sure that the jewels are properly cleaned and
> lubricated. You do not want to have to search for a balance staff for
> that thing. Destructive wear on the staff will be less severe in the
> vertical position, but still..
Just out of curiousity, why will it be happier to run with the axle
vertical, if this position causes more wear? I don't know a lot about
clocks, so it could be something obvious that I'm missing.
I didn't know jewel bearings were supposed to be lubricated. I was
assuming that they ran dry. Do you think the red is ruby, as I thought?
>>Also, there seems to be a lot of oil inside the case. Should I remove
>>the mechanism from the case and try to clean it off? The case is tight
>>and keeps the dust out of the oil.
>>
>
> You should probably clean that off, but leaving a slight film of oil
> on the casing may help in trapping dust, which would otherwise get
> into the next patch of oil it can find(ie: the movement itself).
>
>
>>Also, I am looking for a very thin flat screwdriver to suit the screws
>>on this time switch. The blade needs to be at least 3/16" long, but no
>>more than 25/1000" thick. Does anyone know of a source for such a
>>screwdriver?
>>
>
> Goad.. too early for me to calculate that one into metric. I know, it
> is 11AM here, but today that is way too early. :)
> Watchmaker supplies, such as www.ofrei.com should have something. Have
> a search on that site for their tools.
Roughly speaking, the screwdriver blade needs to be 5 mm long by 0.6 mm
thick.
Thanks very much for your help.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:55:31 +0000, Christopher Tidy
> <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I have just acquired a very old Venner time switch. Probably 50 or 60
>>years old, at a minimum. It has a beautifully machined platform
>>escapement in a heavy brass case. I can see a fleck of red at the pivot
>>of the balance wheel, and wonder if it might be ruby.
>>
>>These time switches were normally screwed to a wall, which means that
>>the axle of the balance wheel is horizontal. I am wondering if it will
>>cause any damage to the mechanism or compromise the timekeeping if I use
>>the time switch in a horizontal position (that is, with the axle of the
>>balance wheel vertical). It certainly runs in this orientation, and
>>there is an adjustment to make it run faster or slower. Can anyone offer
>>advice on this issue?
>>
>
> Not at all. It will actually be happier to run on the end of it's
> pivot, but make sure that the jewels are properly cleaned and
> lubricated. You do not want to have to search for a balance staff for
> that thing. Destructive wear on the staff will be less severe in the
> vertical position, but still..
I think I perhaps misunderstood you. In that last sentence, did you mean
that the axle of the balance wheel is vertical? I may be muddling things
up, as when the axle is in the vertical position, the time switch itself
is in the horizontal position.
Is the correct name for the axle a "staff"?
Many thanks,
Chris
Frank Adam
<cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>>
>> Not at all. It will actually be happier to run on the end of it's
>> pivot, but make sure that the jewels are properly cleaned and
>> lubricated. You do not want to have to search for a balance staff for
>> that thing. Destructive wear on the staff will be less severe in the
>> vertical position, but still..
>
>Just out of curiousity, why will it be happier to run with the axle
>vertical, if this position causes more wear? I don't know a lot about
>clocks, so it could be something obvious that I'm missing.
>
Ok, see the other post about the axle being the staff. We will call it
a staff here. :)
So then, if the staff is vertical, the main weight of the balance is
on the tip of the staff. The tip may well wear, but note that i've
said "destructive" wear. The tip can wear for a long time and it will
simply get a bit shorter and squarer, which can be remedied easily
with a quick lapping and a well placed shim under the balance bridge
to tilt the bridge forward a bit to reduce the height. It is a common
practice to do this.
However, when the staff is horzontal, the pivots are riding on their
side. Wear here will be in the form of a groove(or grooves) being cut
into the side of the pivot and that is about as close to destructive
as it gets. The only remedy for that is to burnish the pivots,
effectively reducing their diameter, which may require the jewels to
be changed as well.
I don't want to unduly alarm you with this though. As long as you keep
to regular service intervals of say, 3-5 years, wear should be
minimal, if any, in any position. It's just that with old and rare
things like that, it can become very expensive to replace a staff,
because it often has to be made up from scratch. Even for rare
watches, one can usually find a close match and just alter it, but
this is no watch.
>I didn't know jewel bearings were supposed to be lubricated. I was
>assuming that they ran dry. Do you think the red is ruby, as I thought?
>
Not sure without seeing it. There should be a jewel quite visible on
the top bridge of the balance wheel. There is possibly a small jewel
called the "roller pin" located on the balance too, near where it
meets the pallet fork.
In general, platforms should have at least 5 jewels. 2 bearings, 2
caps, and the roller pin.
And yes, they do have to be oiled. Ruby (be it only synthetic, as used
in timepieces) is very hard and it can cause a lot of wear when
running dry against steel.
>> Goad.. too early for me to calculate that one into metric. I know, it
>> is 11AM here, but today that is way too early. :)
>> Watchmaker supplies, such as www.ofrei.com should have something. Have
>> a search on that site for their tools.
>
>Roughly speaking, the screwdriver blade needs to be 5 mm long by 0.6 mm
>thick.
>
You could look at those hobby "precision kits" available at any
hardware store. They come in a plastic box with screwdrivers and
sometimes a bunch of other bits thrown in. They cost peanuts. Usually
those other bits are next to useless, but the screwdrivers tend to be
good enough to do the odd jobs.
--
Regards, Frank
Frank Adam
<cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
No, i think we both got that one right. :) I understood that you were
going to keep the clock in a horizontal position(as opposed to
vertical) which will make the balance axle vertical. So i think we're
on the same page.
>Is the correct name for the axle a "staff"?
>
Yes, the axle of the balance wheel is called the "balance staff".
--
Regards, Frank
Christopher Tidy
Thanks for your detailed and interesting response.
That explains it well. I can see that one kind of wear is easy to
compensate for, while the other is not.
>>I didn't know jewel bearings were supposed to be lubricated. I was
>>assuming that they ran dry. Do you think the red is ruby, as I thought?
>>
>
> Not sure without seeing it. There should be a jewel quite visible on
> the top bridge of the balance wheel. There is possibly a small jewel
> called the "roller pin" located on the balance too, near where it
> meets the pallet fork.
> In general, platforms should have at least 5 jewels. 2 bearings, 2
> caps, and the roller pin.
> And yes, they do have to be oiled. Ruby (be it only synthetic, as used
> in timepieces) is very hard and it can cause a lot of wear when
> running dry against steel.
I am assuming that what I can see are rubies. They are small, shiny
regions with an intense purple-red colour. I think I have correctly
located the parts you mentioned, except for the "roller pin". I am not
sure where that is.
I can see three rubies at pivots: one for the balance wheel, one for the
pallet fork and one for the escape wheel. As there must also be bearings
on the lower side of these three components, I think it's fair to say
that this gives six rubies at pivots. The pallets are also rubies, so
that's a total of eight jewels, judging from what I can see through the
small pivoted access cover, which isn't everything.
The ruby at the pivot of the balance wheel looks asymmetrical. It
appears to be circular, except with one flat side. It seems to sit in a
brass carrier of the same shape, presumably to stop it rotating. But it
is only very small, so it is hard to be certain. Does that sound likely?
As the mechanism looks very clean (although a bit oily) and runs well,
do you think it would be acceptable to lubricate the pivots without
dismantling and cleaning the mechanism (I understand that the teeth of
the gears should not be oiled)? As a very inexperienced clock repairer,
I am concerned that I might do something wrong and cause damage or
disrupt the adjustment of the mechanism.
>>>Goad.. too early for me to calculate that one into metric. I know, it
>>>is 11AM here, but today that is way too early. :)
>>>Watchmaker supplies, such as www.ofrei.com should have something. Have
>>>a search on that site for their tools.
>>
>>Roughly speaking, the screwdriver blade needs to be 5 mm long by 0.6 mm
>>thick.
>>
>
> You could look at those hobby "precision kits" available at any
> hardware store. They come in a plastic box with screwdrivers and
> sometimes a bunch of other bits thrown in. They cost peanuts. Usually
> those other bits are next to useless, but the screwdrivers tend to be
> good enough to do the odd jobs.
I have one of those sets. The problem is that the biggest screwdriver
blade is not wide enough, even though the thickness is about right. Some
of the screws in this time switch have slots which are about 5 mm long
and yet very narrow.
I could not find a suitable screwdriver on the Otto Frei website, but
they do have an inexpensive screwdriver sharpener which I may be able to
use to grind a screwdriver blade so that it is thinner. I have also been
put in touch with the gun tool supplier Brownells
(http://www.brownells.com/). They have a rather attractive set of
screwdriver bits which are especially thin, although with the postage to
the UK they are rather expensive. I may nevertheless buy a set, as I
think they would have many uses.
Many thanks for your advice.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
>>I think I perhaps misunderstood you. In that last sentence, did you mean
>>that the axle of the balance wheel is vertical? I may be muddling things
>>up, as when the axle is in the vertical position, the time switch itself
>>is in the horizontal position.
>>
>
> No, i think we both got that one right. :) I understood that you were
> going to keep the clock in a horizontal position(as opposed to
> vertical) which will make the balance axle vertical. So i think we're
> on the same page.
That's right.
>>Is the correct name for the axle a "staff"?
>>
>
> Yes, the axle of the balance wheel is called the "balance staff".
Thanks. That's what I thought.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
its design. I have a couple more questions, if anyone has time to answer
them.
If ruby bearings are intended to be lubricated, why are they used
instead of brass bearings? I've seen jewel bearings in balances (for
weighing) which are not lubricated, although they only move very slowly.
Is it possible to achieve a better surface finish on ruby than brass?
Will the be any difference in how destructive the wear to the pivots
supported in brass bearings is, when the gear axles (I am not sure of
their proper name) are vertical rather than horizontal?
Should I oil the ruby pallet fork faces and escape wheel teeth?
Many thanks,
Chris
Jack Denver
diamond. So less wear and yes it can be polished more highly than brass.
Even if a brass bearing is lubricated it is still subject to wear, as is an
unlubricated ruby bearing. Thru experience, the best combination for
balance pivots (lowest friction, least wear) was found to be a lubricated
ruby bearing so this is what has been widely used for the last 150+ years .
A balance wheel is turning constantly and rapidly so it has different needs
than a balance scale.
When the balance wheel is horizontal, the friction point is the pointed tip
of the (mostly the lower) balance pivot. When vertical, the sides of both
pivots are in contact with the jewel, which is a much greater area. So the
amplitude (amount of swing) of the balance drops considerably in the
vertical position. While theoretically the period of the wheel is supposed
to be the same regardless of amplitude, in fact higher amplitude leads to
better time keeping so it is better to run in the horizontal orientation
(balance wheel is parallel to the floor, shaft is vertical). There is
actually more concentrated wear in the horizontal postion (all on the tip
instead of spread out over a larger area) but if the lube is proper this
should not be a problem.
"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:48F73597...@cantabgold.net...
Frank Adam
<cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>If ruby bearings are intended to be lubricated, why are they used
>instead of brass bearings? I've seen jewel bearings in balances (for
>weighing) which are not lubricated, although they only move very slowly.
>Is it possible to achieve a better surface finish on ruby than brass?
>
Yes it is, but...
Think of what happens when a small dust particle enters the scene.
It will be drawn to where the oil is. It then starts spinning around
occasionally getting wedged and spat out again into the oil. At one
time or another, it may get wedged real good and embed itself into
whatever it can. With a ruby bearing, it is likely to pick the softer
pivot. With a brass bush it will likely to pick the softer bush. In
both cases it can then become like a little cutter and will damage the
opposing surface.
Mind you, ruby is not beyond wear either, but is much less likely to
do so than brass.. In fact in the orientation tha tyou will have that
time switch, if you were to leave it running dry, the lower pivot of
the balance will eventually drill a small indentation in the lower cap
jewel.
>Will the be any difference in how destructive the wear to the pivots
>supported in brass bearings is, when the gear axles (I am not sure of
>their proper name) are vertical rather than horizontal?
>
Wear tends to occur towards whichever way each wheel is pushed when in
operation. For instance a mainspring that you wind towards the right,
will push the next wheel(8day wheel, great wheel, whatever) to the
right to rotate it anti-clockwise, in turn the following wheel will be
pushed to the left to go clockwise and so on.. So whether the plates
are horizontal or vertical will make little difference to train gears
as gravity is far outweighed by the force from the main spring.
>Should I oil the ruby pallet fork faces and escape wheel teeth?
>
Yes. Not too much oil, just put a small dot on the locking faces of
the escape wheel. Perhaps every 2nd or 3rd only and let the pallet
stone carry it to all teeth. Too much oil will leak onto the pallet
jewels(not the stones, the pivot bearings) and you don't want any oil
on there. It is the only part of a jeweled escapement that runs dry.
--
Regards, Frank
Christopher Tidy
> Ruby is much harder than brass - it is the second hardest substance
> after diamond. So less wear and yes it can be polished more highly than
> brass. Even if a brass bearing is lubricated it is still subject to
> wear, as is an unlubricated ruby bearing. Thru experience, the best
> combination for balance pivots (lowest friction, least wear) was found
> to be a lubricated ruby bearing so this is what has been widely used for
> the last 150+ years . A balance wheel is turning constantly and rapidly
> so it has different needs than a balance scale.
>
> When the balance wheel is horizontal, the friction point is the pointed
> tip of the (mostly the lower) balance pivot. When vertical, the sides of
> both pivots are in contact with the jewel, which is a much greater area.
> So the amplitude (amount of swing) of the balance drops considerably in
> the vertical position. While theoretically the period of the wheel is
> supposed to be the same regardless of amplitude, in fact higher
> amplitude leads to better time keeping so it is better to run in the
> horizontal orientation (balance wheel is parallel to the floor, shaft is
> vertical). There is actually more concentrated wear in the horizontal
> postion (all on the tip instead of spread out over a larger area) but if
> the lube is proper this should not be a problem.
My recollection is that as you increase damping, the natural frequency
falls somewhat. I don't think it falls much when the damping is light,
but it may be enough to be noticeable in a timepiece. This would agree
with your statement that timekeeping is better in the horizontal
orientation, where the friction is lower.
Thanks for the interesting explanation.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:37:43 +0000, Christopher Tidy
> <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>
>
>>If ruby bearings are intended to be lubricated, why are they used
>>instead of brass bearings? I've seen jewel bearings in balances (for
>>weighing) which are not lubricated, although they only move very slowly.
>>Is it possible to achieve a better surface finish on ruby than brass?
>>
>
> Yes it is, but...
> Think of what happens when a small dust particle enters the scene.
> It will be drawn to where the oil is. It then starts spinning around
> occasionally getting wedged and spat out again into the oil. At one
> time or another, it may get wedged real good and embed itself into
> whatever it can. With a ruby bearing, it is likely to pick the softer
> pivot. With a brass bush it will likely to pick the softer bush. In
> both cases it can then become like a little cutter and will damage the
> opposing surface.
> Mind you, ruby is not beyond wear either, but is much less likely to
> do so than brass.. In fact in the orientation tha tyou will have that
> time switch, if you were to leave it running dry, the lower pivot of
> the balance will eventually drill a small indentation in the lower cap
> jewel.
Right. I understand now. Thanks.
>>Will the be any difference in how destructive the wear to the pivots
>>supported in brass bearings is, when the gear axles (I am not sure of
>>their proper name) are vertical rather than horizontal?
>>
>
> Wear tends to occur towards whichever way each wheel is pushed when in
> operation. For instance a mainspring that you wind towards the right,
> will push the next wheel(8day wheel, great wheel, whatever) to the
> right to rotate it anti-clockwise, in turn the following wheel will be
> pushed to the left to go clockwise and so on.. So whether the plates
> are horizontal or vertical will make little difference to train gears
> as gravity is far outweighed by the force from the main spring.
I thought that gravity would be a small forced compared to the forces
produced by the spring, but wasn't certain that it would apply to all
the wheels.
>>Should I oil the ruby pallet fork faces and escape wheel teeth?
>>
>
> Yes. Not too much oil, just put a small dot on the locking faces of
> the escape wheel. Perhaps every 2nd or 3rd only and let the pallet
> stone carry it to all teeth. Too much oil will leak onto the pallet
> jewels(not the stones, the pivot bearings) and you don't want any oil
> on there. It is the only part of a jeweled escapement that runs dry.
Just out of interest, why do the pallet jewels run dry?
How many different viscosities of oil should I use in a movement like
this? There is a sticker on the mechanism advising the use of a viscous
oil on the output shaft, but no other advice other than a note that the
mechanism should periodically be opened for lubrication. I am thinking
that perhaps a low viscosity oil would be suitable for the jewels, a
medium viscosity for the brass bearings, and a high viscosity for the
central shaft. Does that sound sensible?
Many thanks for your help.
Best wishes,
Chris
Jack Denver
http://www.bhi.co.uk/Exams/The%20Practical%20Lubrication%20of%20Clocks%20and%20Watches.pdf
There is mixed opinion on whether to oil the lever pivots - this treatise
says no if the watch is under 13 lignes (meaning pocket watch yes,
wristwatch no), others say no period, others say yes, with a very light oil.
I certainly wouldn't argue with Frank's expert opinion. It is very
important for the running of the watch that the anchor (aka lever) pivots
freely, but the amount of travel is not great (just a few degrees) , so
there is not a lot of wear the anchor pivot (often jewels are skipped in
this location, partly for that reason and partly because it is a difficult
area to jewel) , so there is not a lot of wear - it is more important that
the pivot not become gummed up with old oil or the watch/ platform clock
will not run at all or run extremely poorly - the amount of "kick" the lever
gets from the impulse pin is extremely small so any drag at all will
interfere with the rocking of the lever. The pallet stones that engage the
escape wheel otoh you want to be lubricated so that they can slip free of
the teeth as easily as possible.
"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:48F9E16B...@cantabgold.net...
Christopher Tidy
> Here is a guide to lubrication and what oils to use where:
>
> http://www.bhi.co.uk/Exams/The%20Practical%20Lubrication%20of%20Clocks%20and%20Watches.pdf
Thanks, Jack. That's a very useful guide.
> There is mixed opinion on whether to oil the lever pivots - this
> treatise says no if the watch is under 13 lignes (meaning pocket watch
> yes, wristwatch no), others say no period, others say yes, with a very
> light oil. I certainly wouldn't argue with Frank's expert opinion. It
> is very important for the running of the watch that the anchor (aka
> lever) pivots freely, but the amount of travel is not great (just a few
> degrees) , so there is not a lot of wear the anchor pivot (often jewels
> are skipped in this location, partly for that reason and partly because
> it is a difficult area to jewel) , so there is not a lot of wear - it is
> more important that the pivot not become gummed up with old oil or the
> watch/ platform clock will not run at all or run extremely poorly - the
> amount of "kick" the lever gets from the impulse pin is extremely small
> so any drag at all will interfere with the rocking of the lever. The
> pallet stones that engage the escape wheel otoh you want to be
> lubricated so that they can slip free of the teeth as easily as possible.
I just measured the mechanism. It's 2 11/16" across, which I calculate
to be 32 lignes. But the guide just says that lever pivots on mechanisms
under 13 lignes are never oiled. It doesn't say that they are always
oiled on larger mechanisms. My natural inclination is to oil things,
though this is not necessarily a good tendency in all situations.
Do you know what a modern equivalent to Microtime Type "H" oil would be?
I had a look through that guide, but couldn't see any reference to it.
It is for the central shaft, so I'm assuming it's a pretty viscous oil.
Thanks for the help. I'm learning a lot from you and Frank.
Best wishes,
Chris
Frank Adam
My general attitude to oiling is, that i will oil everything that is
rotating a full circle or more.
However, with jeweled pallets, i never oil the pivots, no matter what
size the watch. The reason is what Jack said about the gumming. The
pallet's rotation is limited to what, maybe 30 degrees with virtually
zero pressure there. That IMO, is not enough to properly shift oil
around and keep it refreshed, so the oil would go stale(for lack of a
better word) quite quickly.
>Do you know what a modern equivalent to Microtime Type "H" oil would be?
>I had a look through that guide, but couldn't see any reference to it.
>It is for the central shaft, so I'm assuming it's a pretty viscous oil.
>
To answer the question in your other post here about the oils;
There is practical oiling and recommended oiling. The former is what i
would do, the latter is what the oil manufacturers would want me to
do.
Strictly speaking, there are specific oils for almost every wheel,
lever and moving part in a watch. Following some guides you could end
up paying out more than 200 bucks to buy up the oil to lubricate a
watch "properly".
While i obviously have a few oils, Synta lube and Synta-Visco lube is
the main two i use. On a time switch, i'd use on eof those right
through the platform escapement and standard clock oil for the train
whels.
Depending on the mainspring size and type, i use generic(well, only
Castrol :-)) grease, perhaps combined with engine or light machine
oil, or just one of the machine or engine oils.
ps: Again. Do not oil on top of old oil. You simply loosen up dirt
which will cause wear. The worst thing that one can smell when a clock
comes in for a quote, is the smell of WD-40.
Hm.. Come to think, usually i make much better money on those, so
perhaps i should advocate it. So....
Yes, use WD-40 on clocks liberally. It is wonderful and with repeated
applications, will extend the working period of your clock by up to a
year or two ! And who cares that it will double your next service
cost. You saved a year and if you die during that year, you saved a
service cost and if it gets stolen you are the last to laugh !
Might put that on my website. ;-)
--
Regards, Frank
Jack Denver
"Frank Adam" <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:a1bnf4pv6895vpl9n...@4ax.com...
..
> Yes, use WD-40 on clocks liberally. It is wonderful and with repeated
> applications, will extend the working period of your clock by up to a
> year or two ! And who cares that it will double your next service
> cost. You saved a year and if you die during that year, you saved a
> service cost and if it gets stolen you are the last to laugh !
>
> Might put that on my website. ;-)
>
> --
>
I hate to confess this, but back in the day when I knew nothing about
clocks, I did exactly that for my parent's 30 day wall clock that had
stopped running and the damn thing ran again till they passed. I have the
thing still, though I do not run it regularly (my wife hates the ticking -
perhaps reminds her of my parents whom she was not wild about). I have not
opened it up to see what kind of shape it is in (probably not good) though
it still runs and keeps time and chime. It is a Seiko, believe it or not,
must have been from around the 60's-early 70s. The only one like it I have
ever seen (even a picture of) was in a Seiko corp. museum. in Japan. Does
anyone know anything about Seiko mechanical clocks? I have never seen them
discussed anywhere.
Frank Adam
Yeah, those Seikos were not unlike the Korean clocks that we had a
rush on here about 30-35 years ago. The first time i saw a Seiko, i
thought one of them stole it from the other. I'm betting on the
Koreans pnching it from the Japanese, but who knows. There is a touch
of Ansonia taste to them as well, so i think whichever did it first
pinched the generic idea from the Ansonia anyway.
They(including the Ansonia) are all quite crude and the reason they
just keep going on and on is because of a mainspring that would drive
your car for a mile at 60Mph. :)
WD-40 does work well on those, because they are relatively loose in
their tolerances, coupled to that strong mainspring, so they won't
mind being worn as long as there is some oil to slip on. Some
amazingly worn Ansonias come through here at times, where i have to
scratch my head and think "how the hell could this have been going a
week ago ?"... but they do.
--
Regards, Frank
Jack Denver
> just keep going on and on is because of a mainspring that would drive
> your car for a mile at 60Mph. :)
>
scary looking bundles of potential energy that look like they could do some
real damage if let loose when fully wound.
I'm sure the history is Ansonia 1st, then Seiko copied Ansonia and then
the Koreans copied Seiko. Ansonia went out of business in 1929 (the tooling
sent to the Soviets) so they didn't mind. Lots of Ansonias still running
after 80 plus years so I reckon my Seiko probably has at least another 50
years left in it.
Mine looks similar to (not quite identical) to the wall clock in the
"mahagony" case on the right, with a gridded glass window at the bottom.
http://www.roachman.com/skmuseum/9.jpg
Frank Adam
<nunu...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> They(including the Ansonia) are all quite crude and the reason they
>> just keep going on and on is because of a mainspring that would drive
>> your car for a mile at 60Mph. :)
>>
>Actually two (one for the chimes and one for timekeeping) and yes, they are
>scary looking bundles of potential energy that look like they could do some
>real damage if let loose when fully wound.
>
They do. Narrower Sessions or the kitchen clocks can have the side
wall knocked clean off when one of those go. Back in the old days my
old boss used string to put around the mainspring and then let it down
into that. Mostly it worked, but once one broke while sitting on the
bench. It sent everything in a foot radious in every direction with
such force that one wheel we found neatly hanging out of the door
about 3-4 yards away from the benches. While interior doors are not
all that tough, i was still glad it didn't test me. :)
I then came up with the idea of using automotive hose clamps. Never
looked back and it was one of the few times my boss agreed to a change
in our routine.
>I'm sure the history is Ansonia 1st, then Seiko copied Ansonia and then
>the Koreans copied Seiko. Ansonia went out of business in 1929 (the tooling
>sent to the Soviets) so they didn't mind. Lots of Ansonias still running
>after 80 plus years so I reckon my Seiko probably has at least another 50
>years left in it.
>
>Mine looks similar to (not quite identical) to the wall clock in the
>"mahagony" case on the right, with a gridded glass window at the bottom.
>
>http://www.roachman.com/skmuseum/9.jpg
>
Yep. Seiko went for the modern simple look, while the Koreans opted
for more frills and surprisingly<g> repros.. If you do a search, you
can find some nice looking ones, but the movement behind the dial is
the same crappy thing. Mind you, this may be the anal watchmaker
talking, the one who would claim to prefer close fitting pivots and
centered oil cups around the pivots, but in reality there is little
"real" difference between the quality of an Ansonia or those Korean
offerings. Ansonias used better quality steel(and perhaps brass) to
create the same loosely tailored thing.
Funny thing, most i know would tell you all about the quality and
precision of a traditional Frog movement, but most will also hate
doing them exactly because of the close tolerances. We're a strange
mob alright. :-)
--
Regards, Frank
Jack Denver
but in reality there is little
> "real" difference between the quality of an Ansonia or those Korean
> offerings. Ansonias used better quality steel(and perhaps brass) to
> create the same loosely tailored thing.
Theoretically we are supposed to be making "progress" so the Korean clock,
being 50 or more years newer, should be "better". But usually it turns out
to be the opposite - the materials and workmanship of the older item is
usually superior. That the Ansonia is only a little better and not miles
better says something about Ansonia - they did go broke after all and they
were mass market for their day - quantity over quality - there was good and
bad in all ages. But you do have to wonder whether a certain amount of
looseness in a clock that is supposed to sit on the wall and collect dust
and run for decades without service is not actually a good thing if not
exactly beautiful to behold.
dAz
>
> I hate to confess this, but back in the day when I knew nothing about
> clocks, I did exactly that for my parent's 30 day wall clock that had
> stopped running and the damn thing ran again till they passed. I have
> the thing still, though I do not run it regularly (my wife hates the
> ticking - perhaps reminds her of my parents whom she was not wild
> about). I have not opened it up to see what kind of shape it is in
> (probably not good) though it still runs and keeps time and chime. It
> is a Seiko, believe it or not, must have been from around the 60's-early
> 70s. The only one like it I have ever seen (even a picture of) was in a
> Seiko corp. museum. in Japan. Does anyone know anything about Seiko
> mechanical clocks? I have never seen them discussed anywhere.
Seiko has been around for over 100 years, I would suspect they either
copied or were helped by ansonia because those early movements are quite
similar
Jack Denver
Japanese (and the Russians) were masters of reverse engineering, with the
copies sometimes better than the originals. My father-in-law recalls
letting a group of Japanese into his truck trailer factory in the '70s, no
cameras allowed. The next time he met with the Japanese, they unrolled a
blueprint showing a detailed layout of his factory - apparently each member
of the team had been assigned a quadrant to memorize and as soon as they
left his plant they all wrote down what they remembered.
Did Seiko ever update their movements or did they just keep building their
Ansonia copies? And when (if ever) did they stop making them? Are parts
available? The one I have is probably from the late 60s - early 70s or
thereabouts. 30 day pendulum movement, chimes the hour, a single strike for
the half, calendar. It ticks quite loudly when it runs, always was IIRC - I
assume has to do with letting off that giant spring.
"dAz" <dazb@zipDOTcomDOTau> wrote in message
news:48fc3610$0$4451$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christopher Tidy
Hi Frank,
I do apologise for not replying to your message sooner.
>>I just measured the mechanism. It's 2 11/16" across, which I calculate
>>to be 32 lignes. But the guide just says that lever pivots on mechanisms
>>under 13 lignes are never oiled. It doesn't say that they are always
>>oiled on larger mechanisms. My natural inclination is to oil things,
>>though this is not necessarily a good tendency in all situations.
>>
>
> My general attitude to oiling is, that i will oil everything that is
> rotating a full circle or more.
> However, with jeweled pallets, i never oil the pivots, no matter what
> size the watch. The reason is what Jack said about the gumming. The
> pallet's rotation is limited to what, maybe 30 degrees with virtually
> zero pressure there. That IMO, is not enough to properly shift oil
> around and keep it refreshed, so the oil would go stale(for lack of a
> better word) quite quickly.
I did hear that there are modern synthetic oils which consist of just
one type of hydrocarbon molecule. The idea being that their viscosity
does not change as the oil evaporates, unlike oils which consist of a
mixture of hydrocarbons (because the lighter fractions evaporate more
readily and leave the heavier, more viscous fractions behind). If such
oils are available for clocks, it would avoid the problem of the oil
becoming more viscous due to evaporation. Then the only problem would be
a build-up of dirt, possibly causing increased friction and wear at the
pallet pivots. However, I am doubtful that this will be a problem in my
time switch as it is quite tightly sealed. But I do not know if such an
oil is available. Can anyone tell me?
>>Do you know what a modern equivalent to Microtime Type "H" oil would be?
>>I had a look through that guide, but couldn't see any reference to it.
>>It is for the central shaft, so I'm assuming it's a pretty viscous oil.
>>
>
> To answer the question in your other post here about the oils;
> There is practical oiling and recommended oiling. The former is what i
> would do, the latter is what the oil manufacturers would want me to
> do.
> Strictly speaking, there are specific oils for almost every wheel,
> lever and moving part in a watch. Following some guides you could end
> up paying out more than 200 bucks to buy up the oil to lubricate a
> watch "properly".
> While i obviously have a few oils, Synta lube and Synta-Visco lube is
> the main two i use. On a time switch, i'd use on eof those right
> through the platform escapement and standard clock oil for the train
> whels.
> Depending on the mainspring size and type, i use generic(well, only
> Castrol :-)) grease, perhaps combined with engine or light machine
> oil, or just one of the machine or engine oils.
I can imagine that buying every kind of oil you can get may not yield
much improvement over just using one or two different oils. After all,
in many engineering devices the presence of oil is much more important
than the type of oil.
I was thinking of using one type of clock oil for the jewels, a more
viscous clock oil for the brass bearings, and probably a drop or two of
ISO 50 engine oil for the central shaft (it is quite large and heavily
loaded). Does that sound sensible?
I have often seen oil simply sold as "clock oil" and "turret clock oil".
At the moment I only possess a bottle of the regular "clock oil". Is
this suitable for the jewels, or do I need to buy a less viscous oil? In
the past I have only used it on a slave clock, which has no timekeeping
mechanism and contains no jewels.
> ps: Again. Do not oil on top of old oil. You simply loosen up dirt
> which will cause wear. The worst thing that one can smell when a clock
> comes in for a quote, is the smell of WD-40.
I am very reluctant to dismantle the platform. It looks so delicate and
I fear I may break something or disrupt the adjustment (it keeps time
well at the moment). Is it possible to clean the jewels without
dismantling, or is this a bad idea? They do not look dirty to the naked eye.
I also wound the clock mechanism fully today. I was a bit cautious about
winding it up firmly, and was surprised that the key just stopped dead
when the spring was fully wound. I guess it is a myth that spring-driven
clocks can be overwound.
Many thanks for the advice.
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
It would be interesting to know how looseness affects the rate of wear
at the pivots, whether it increases or decreases it. Anyone know?
Best wishes,
Chris
Christopher Tidy
> I suspect reverse engineering more than any active help from Ansonia -
> the Japanese (and the Russians) were masters of reverse engineering,
> with the copies sometimes better than the originals. My father-in-law
> recalls letting a group of Japanese into his truck trailer factory in
> the '70s, no cameras allowed. The next time he met with the Japanese,
> they unrolled a blueprint showing a detailed layout of his factory -
> apparently each member of the team had been assigned a quadrant to
> memorize and as soon as they left his plant they all wrote down what
> they remembered.
Wow. Scary that they gave it so much forethought!
Chris
Christopher Tidy
I did a similar thing to a 4H dial in a Western Electric 302 telephone a
few years back, when I just took the attitude that oil was a good thing.
I pretty much drenched everything with 3-in-1 oil. I also cleaned the
contacts with emery paper, which was perhaps not a good idea. After
that, the dial had some problems (mind you, it wasn't perfect to start
with). I need to dismantle it, clean the parts before lubricating just
the pivots, then fit some new contacts. I have the parts to do it, but
haven't got round to it yet. Wonderful telephone, though!
Best wishes,
Chris
dAz
> I suspect reverse engineering more than any active help from Ansonia -
> the Japanese (and the Russians) were masters of reverse engineering,
> with the copies sometimes better than the originals. My father-in-law
> recalls letting a group of Japanese into his truck trailer factory in
> the '70s, no cameras allowed. The next time he met with the Japanese,
> they unrolled a blueprint showing a detailed layout of his factory -
> apparently each member of the team had been assigned a quadrant to
> memorize and as soon as they left his plant they all wrote down what
> they remembered.
I sometimes wonder if the Japs were capable of original thought or
ideas, that is one thing they can do very well is to copy then improve
over the original item.
>
>
> Did Seiko ever update their movements or did they just keep building
> their Ansonia copies? And when (if ever) did they stop making them? Are
> parts available? The one I have is probably from the late 60s - early
> 70s or thereabouts. 30 day pendulum movement, chimes the hour, a single
> strike for the half, calendar. It ticks quite loudly when it runs,
> always was IIRC - I assume has to do with letting off that giant spring.
don't know, probably when they concentrated on the watch production they
tapered off the clock side or moved that part to another division, the
very early clocks they made were very similar to the early American
clocks, even the Seiko brand was like the Ansonia but with an 'S'
instead of a 'A' inside the square, I often see a Seiko wall clock come
in with a Ansonia redial, but if you look at the gong base you will
often see the 'S' inside the square, they can use the same parts that
are made for the american movements.
they generally made them to run 8days just the USA movements, the 30day
movements which were later had a bit of a different layout and I suspect
were made in China and later the Koreans with their 31day clocks, that
clock of yours is probably a Chinese 30day movement.
the chinese movements in the striking used a all metal spring loaded
governor with a fibre disk to get the braking action against the plate,
a very nice simple idea, the koreans used a rubber disk inside a metal
drum which worked but was a problem if you forgot and used white spirit
(shelite) to rinse the movement, it made the rubber go hard which the
clock would then make the clock strike very fast.
of course the flat metal blade for the fly is still the best but these
later movements are more compact than the older types so lack of space
without having to go to an external fly/governor system.
Jack Denver
"dAz" <dazb@zipDOTcomDOTau> wrote in message
>
> they generally made them to run 8days just the USA movements, the 30day
> movements which were later had a bit of a different layout and I suspect
> were made in China and later the Koreans with their 31day clocks, that
> clock of yours is probably a Chinese 30day movement.
I think the one I have is from the Mao period where China was pretty much
cut off from world trade, esp. with Japan. There was a period in the late
60's, early 70s where Japan's industrial development was somewhere around
where China is now - every once in a while I'll pick up some older kitchen
tools or nick nack - a cheap egg slicer or a little clay figurine and it
will be stamped "Made in Japan" and it's kind of shocking because nowadays
that kind of stuff is 100% made in China. I'll get around to examining mine
for marks but based on the vintage I'm 99% sure that it was actually made in
Japan.
Frank Adam
<cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>Frank Adam wrote:
>
>Hi Frank,
>
>I do apologise for not replying to your message sooner.
>
Yeah i know. I hate it when life and work gets in the way of servicing
Usenet. ;-)
>>>I just measured the mechanism. It's 2 11/16" across, which I calculate
>>>to be 32 lignes. But the guide just says that lever pivots on mechanisms
>>>under 13 lignes are never oiled. It doesn't say that they are always
>>>oiled on larger mechanisms. My natural inclination is to oil things,
>>>though this is not necessarily a good tendency in all situations.
>>>
>>
>> My general attitude to oiling is, that i will oil everything that is
>> rotating a full circle or more.
>> However, with jeweled pallets, i never oil the pivots, no matter what
>> size the watch. The reason is what Jack said about the gumming. The
>> pallet's rotation is limited to what, maybe 30 degrees with virtually
>> zero pressure there. That IMO, is not enough to properly shift oil
>> around and keep it refreshed, so the oil would go stale(for lack of a
>> better word) quite quickly.
>
>I did hear that there are modern synthetic oils which consist of just
>one type of hydrocarbon molecule. The idea being that their viscosity
>does not change as the oil evaporates, unlike oils which consist of a
>mixture of hydrocarbons (because the lighter fractions evaporate more
>readily and leave the heavier, more viscous fractions behind). If such
>oils are available for clocks, it would avoid the problem of the oil
>becoming more viscous due to evaporation. Then the only problem would be
>a build-up of dirt, possibly causing increased friction and wear at the
>pallet pivots. However, I am doubtful that this will be a problem in my
>time switch as it is quite tightly sealed. But I do not know if such an
>oil is available. Can anyone tell me?
>
Most of the oils in current use are synthetics. One of the main
problem here is that pallets need to be extremely light in their
operation and it would be impossible to have an oil that is light
enough, yet clingy enough to remain in place for years to come, right
through all the temperature ranges that a time piece will see.
Best is not to lube them.
>I was thinking of using one type of clock oil for the jewels, a more
>viscous clock oil for the brass bearings, and probably a drop or two of
>ISO 50 engine oil for the central shaft (it is quite large and heavily
>loaded). Does that sound sensible?
>
Regualar clock oil should be ok for the train wheels and the center
shaft. Even for the 8 day wheel and barrel arbor, especially on that
clock work.
As a guide, in a chiming clock, where you have a mainspring measuring
some 4-5cms in height with a strength of .42mm or more, the standard
clock oil will do ok for all the wheels. The power in your time switch
won't be abywhere near that, so there shouldn't be any problems.
If you think that the mainspring is exceptionally light, then you may
want to opt for a lighter oil near the last couple of wheels in the
train, but i'd give it a shot with the standard oil. It should be ok.
>I have often seen oil simply sold as "clock oil" and "turret clock oil".
>At the moment I only possess a bottle of the regular "clock oil". Is
>this suitable for the jewels, or do I need to buy a less viscous oil? In
>the past I have only used it on a slave clock, which has no timekeeping
>mechanism and contains no jewels.
>
Clock oil will be way too heavy.
The components of the platform are about the same size as a standard
pocket watch, with a bit more grunt on it. 9020 Synt-a-Visco-lube
would do for that or perhaps Microgliss(D5).
http://www.ofrei.com/page246.html
>> ps: Again. Do not oil on top of old oil. You simply loosen up dirt
>> which will cause wear. The worst thing that one can smell when a clock
>> comes in for a quote, is the smell of WD-40.
>
>I am very reluctant to dismantle the platform. It looks so delicate and
>I fear I may break something or disrupt the adjustment (it keeps time
>well at the moment). Is it possible to clean the jewels without
>dismantling, or is this a bad idea? They do not look dirty to the naked eye.
>
If you have an ultrasoninc cleaner, then perhaps but even then, oiling
the balance jewels properly is virtually impossible without
dismantling the cap jewels on both ends. If you oil the jewel from the
bottom, it can and probably will run down on the balance staff.
The idea is to oil the center of the cap jewel and assemble the cap
onto the jewel. This creates a little nest for the oil *above* the
jewel. Once oil gets below the jewel, it will be drawn out, foul the
hairspring etc...
>I also wound the clock mechanism fully today. I was a bit cautious about
>winding it up firmly, and was surprised that the key just stopped dead
>when the spring was fully wound. I guess it is a myth that spring-driven
>clocks can be overwound.
>
If it stopped dead, then it must have a pair of control wheels at the
bottom of the barrel. These are kinda star shaped wheels, one with one
more tooth than the other, and one tooth flattened off. So, when set
up properly, as you turn the key, the teeth pass each other a number
of times, but after the Xth turn, one gear's tooth will come against
the flat tooth on the other gear and block the winder. Clever and
simple.
Overwinding is a folk tale. Springs that are not blocked with the
above thingos can indeed be overwound, resulting in a big bang as the
end of the spring lets go and breaks. That is the only form of
overwinding. The mythical one is where people, whose watch is fully
wound but stops, believe that they must have overwound it. I have no
idea where that belief emerged from, but it is false in every way.
--
Regards, Frank
Christopher Tidy
Frank Adam wrote:
>>I did hear that there are modern synthetic oils which consist of just
>>one type of hydrocarbon molecule. The idea being that their viscosity
>>does not change as the oil evaporates, unlike oils which consist of a
>>mixture of hydrocarbons (because the lighter fractions evaporate more
>>readily and leave the heavier, more viscous fractions behind). If such
>>oils are available for clocks, it would avoid the problem of the oil
>>becoming more viscous due to evaporation. Then the only problem would be
>>a build-up of dirt, possibly causing increased friction and wear at the
>>pallet pivots. However, I am doubtful that this will be a problem in my
>>time switch as it is quite tightly sealed. But I do not know if such an
>>oil is available. Can anyone tell me?
>>
>
> Most of the oils in current use are synthetics. One of the main
> problem here is that pallets need to be extremely light in their
> operation and it would be impossible to have an oil that is light
> enough, yet clingy enough to remain in place for years to come, right
> through all the temperature ranges that a time piece will see.
> Best is not to lube them.
In this case the temperature range should not be great. Perhaps 15 deg.
C minimum to 25 deg. C maximum, so only a 10 deg. C range. I wish I knew
what the manufacturer's recommendations were, but they have long since
gone out of business, and the literature I have only briefly mentions
maintenance.
It's difficult to tell if the pallet pivots are currently oiled. I'm not
sure if I can tell for certain. Are the pallet pivots ever a place in
which wear is a problem, or do they move so little that wear is
insignificant?
>>I was thinking of using one type of clock oil for the jewels, a more
>>viscous clock oil for the brass bearings, and probably a drop or two of
>>ISO 50 engine oil for the central shaft (it is quite large and heavily
>>loaded). Does that sound sensible?
>>
>
> Regualar clock oil should be ok for the train wheels and the center
> shaft. Even for the 8 day wheel and barrel arbor, especially on that
> clock work.
>
> As a guide, in a chiming clock, where you have a mainspring measuring
> some 4-5cms in height with a strength of .42mm or more, the standard
> clock oil will do ok for all the wheels. The power in your time switch
> won't be abywhere near that, so there shouldn't be any problems.
> If you think that the mainspring is exceptionally light, then you may
> want to opt for a lighter oil near the last couple of wheels in the
> train, but i'd give it a shot with the standard oil. It should be ok.
The mainspring does not seem light. It looks similar to the mainspring
in a pendulum-regulated clock I have. The pendulum in that clock is
about 12" long, to give you an idea of the clock's scale.
I am tempted to put some common Castrol grease on the mainspring.
>>I have often seen oil simply sold as "clock oil" and "turret clock oil".
>>At the moment I only possess a bottle of the regular "clock oil". Is
>>this suitable for the jewels, or do I need to buy a less viscous oil? In
>>the past I have only used it on a slave clock, which has no timekeeping
>>mechanism and contains no jewels.
>>
>
> Clock oil will be way too heavy.
> The components of the platform are about the same size as a standard
> pocket watch, with a bit more grunt on it. 9020 Synt-a-Visco-lube
> would do for that or perhaps Microgliss(D5).
> http://www.ofrei.com/page246.html
I found this supplier in the UK:
http://www.cousinsuk.com/
They have Moebius 8030 and Moebius Microgliss D-5 oils in their range.
It sounds like those should be appropriate oils. I think I may buy a new
oiler at the same time. Mine is cheap and has a somewhat misshapen end.
>>>ps: Again. Do not oil on top of old oil. You simply loosen up dirt
>>>which will cause wear. The worst thing that one can smell when a clock
>>>comes in for a quote, is the smell of WD-40.
>>
>>I am very reluctant to dismantle the platform. It looks so delicate and
>>I fear I may break something or disrupt the adjustment (it keeps time
>>well at the moment). Is it possible to clean the jewels without
>>dismantling, or is this a bad idea? They do not look dirty to the naked eye.
>>
>
> If you have an ultrasoninc cleaner, then perhaps but even then, oiling
> the balance jewels properly is virtually impossible without
> dismantling the cap jewels on both ends. If you oil the jewel from the
> bottom, it can and probably will run down on the balance staff.
> The idea is to oil the center of the cap jewel and assemble the cap
> onto the jewel. This creates a little nest for the oil *above* the
> jewel. Once oil gets below the jewel, it will be drawn out, foul the
> hairspring etc...
I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner. I was thinking it might be a bad
idea to put the whole mechanism in a cleaning fluid in case some of the
fluid remains in crevices and causes corrosion. I have found a set of
screwdrivers with thin blades in the USA. I'm getting a set shipped
over. When they arrive, I will open the case and see what I think about
dismantling the platform. I am just very concerned that I might damage
delicate parts like the balance spring.
Rather than dismantling, I was thinking of putting a drop of oil on the
staff and letting it run down into the jewel, but it sounds like that's
probably a bad idea.
>>I also wound the clock mechanism fully today. I was a bit cautious about
>>winding it up firmly, and was surprised that the key just stopped dead
>>when the spring was fully wound. I guess it is a myth that spring-driven
>>clocks can be overwound.
>>
>
> If it stopped dead, then it must have a pair of control wheels at the
> bottom of the barrel. These are kinda star shaped wheels, one with one
> more tooth than the other, and one tooth flattened off. So, when set
> up properly, as you turn the key, the teeth pass each other a number
> of times, but after the Xth turn, one gear's tooth will come against
> the flat tooth on the other gear and block the winder. Clever and
> simple.
>
> Overwinding is a folk tale. Springs that are not blocked with the
> above thingos can indeed be overwound, resulting in a big bang as the
> end of the spring lets go and breaks. That is the only form of
> overwinding. The mythical one is where people, whose watch is fully
> wound but stops, believe that they must have overwound it. I have no
> idea where that belief emerged from, but it is false in every way.
Yes, the key stopped dead when I wound it up. It was neat because there
was no doubt that I had wound it the correct amount.
So in some clocks it is possible to break the spring by overwinding the
clock just using the normal key?
Christopher Tidy
Frank Adam wrote:
> Clock oil will be way too heavy.
> The components of the platform are about the same size as a standard
> pocket watch, with a bit more grunt on it. 9020 Synt-a-Visco-lube
> would do for that or perhaps Microgliss(D5).
> http://www.ofrei.com/page246.html
I think I perhaps misunderstood you here. Did you mean 9020 oil for the
platform jewels, and Microgliss D-5 for the brass bearings and central
shaft? I was thinking that the two oils were meant for the same purpose,
but from the information I can find it seems that Microgliss D-5 is much
more viscous:
http://www.hswalsh.com/itemdetail.aspx?i=HOD5&c=640
http://www.ofrei.com/page951.html
http://www.ofrei.com/images/moebiuslubricatingchart.pdf
There's some pretty detailed advice from Moebius there. I think I will
replace my unnamed jar of clock oil with a jar from Moebius, as then
I'll have the advice to back it up.
Many thanks,
Chris